Urethane bandsaw tires coming loose

[Paul Steiner]

I have a delta 14" bandsaw, last november I replaced the tires with urethane tires from woodcraft. The saw operated fine until this week, it throws blades off the wheels. When I observe the machine running with the doors open I can see the tires lifting up in places. This is happening on both wheels and the tires can be moved when touched. I will be calling woodcraft but does anyone have any other ideas? What about using some rubber cement, anyone try that?

[glenn bradley]

You should have to soak the tires in very hot water to get them to stretch onto the wheels. If they went on much easier than that, they were too big IMHO. Have they come in contact with any chemicals that could have damaged them structurally? I will defer the adhesive question to someone who knows better but, on something with the composition (flexibility) of urethane I doubt glue is an answer(?).

[Carroll Courtney]

Urethane tires claim to fame is that they were made mainly for metal cutting saws that use coolent which would not affect the tires.But they went after the woodworking market advertising the ease of installing by just using hot water.With no adhesive the only way the tire remains on is through the strength of the elastic which I think will weaken over time.If doing it all over,I think that rubber is a better choice.After all, rubber has been on BS since the beginning.This information is my own opinion,other may or may not agree.But we all have opinions----Carroll
Just a thought,is the motor 1750rpms???

[Bill White]

I'm watchin' this thread 'cause I've really heard some mixed coments about urethane tires. My old Magna had rubber as does the new Grizz 0555LX. Never had a prob with stretching. When I replaced the Magna tires, I used the rubber cement.
Lookin' forward to more comments.
Bill

[Paul Steiner]

I called woodcraft and they reffered me to carter. Carter (who answered on the first ring with a human being) said this happens when the wheel is under 14". I had the wheel in front of me and a measured it, 13 7/8". They said to use 2 part epoxy in 4 to 6 places around the wheel. I will try this today. The tires worked well for 8 months, however I think the recent changes in temperature and humidity and the wheel being under 14" caused this.

[Myk Rian]

Sounds to me like you're over-tensioning the blades. No way they should come off with a properly set-up saw.
What else have you done to make sure the saw is set-up properly.

[Erik Tofstad]

Hope this same thing doesn't happen to me - I just got a set of urethane tires for a Grizzly G1019 that I am rebuilding. The old rubber tires were cracked and needed to be replaced. The wheel diameter is about 13.625" not 14". Looks like I will need to do a bit of stretching to get these tires on anyways so hopefully the elasticity is enough to hold them in place!!!

[Paul Murphy]

Woodcraft and Carter need to stand behind their product (I predict Woodcraft will). Have them send you new tires. I wiould not epoxy tires onto a Delta 14" bandsaw for two reasons: One, the Delta design was meant to be a stretch-fit. Two, they would be difficult to remove the next time they need service.

Finally, Carter has made tires narrower and thinner than the originals on what is probably the single largest selling model of all time. I bought urethane tires from Hartville Tool that were the right size, less expensive, and more importantly they have worked fine for the last 5 years. For the money, that would be my personal solution.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I have a set of urethanes from Sulphur Grove that are about twenty years old. Carters are EXPENSIVE, as they are sold by the tire, not by the set. McFeely's stocks them. About $32 with $1 shipping for a set.

[Paul Steiner]

This bandsaw is setup correctly, I maintain five saws for 200 students to use this is the only one giving me this problem. I had to take a course in college on maintaining machine tools in an educational setting, setup is not the issue. When I run the saw with no blade I can see the tire lift off the wheel. I epoxied the wheels today and will use them tomorrow. Taking the tires off will be a pain but, we need the saw now, and when I do have to take the tires off I can do that five years down the road during the summer when the saw is not needed so desperately.

[Myk Rian]

If you maintain and setup that many machines, it should have been obvious to you that the tires were bad.
Epoxy doesn't exactly stick to urethane all that well.

[Paul Steiner]

Earth to Myk this thread is about bad bandsaw tires. Yes it was obvious to me that the tires were bad, so I create a thread about ideas for solutions and to share my experience so others in the future could look at this for a reference. And I am happy to say that I got some great input also people posted that they may have the same problem. But the problem with SMC is someone always wants to play who has the bigger bandsaw.

[bob hertle]

If the epoxy let's you down--as it probably will, the correct adhesive for urethane tires is 3M 5200 marine adhesive/sealant. Comes in regular (7-day cure time) or fast-cure version. I have never believed in un-glued tires of any type, on any saw. I would strongly recommend new tires, since your current ones are obviously stretched. Better still, figure out a way to crown them on the wheel, even if the crown is built into the wheel. The resulting concentricity will improve smoothness and performance.

Regards
Bob


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[Bob Wingard]

I have never believed in un-glued tires of any type, on any saw. I would strongly recommend new tires, since your current ones are obviously stretched.


I believe in "un-gled" tires ... especially when the manufacturer recommends that criteria in the installation ... I don't pretend to know more than they do about their own product.

Since they already said that the tires are NOT over sized, but the wheels are undersized, I don't understand how you came to this arbitrary conclusion of another replacement as a solution ... he'd only be getting another set of the same thing he has now ... knowing some of the properties of urethane and it's inherent "memory", how do you come to the conclusion that the tires are stretched ???

In this particular instance, where the tires do not fit and remain in tension just on a friction fit, I think I might try running down to the local auto parts store and getting a tube of 3M's trim adhesive ... a small, continuous bead should help make them stick ... I really don't like the idea of some clumps of epoxy scattered around the wheel ... seems like it could cause the band to bounce every time it hit the high spots.

[bob hertle]

I believe in "un-gled" tires ... especially when the manufacturer recommends that criteria in the installation ... I don't pretend to know more than they do about their own product.

Since they already said that the tires are NOT over sized, but the wheels are undersized, I don't understand how you came to this arbitrary conclusion of another replacement as a solution ... he'd only be getting another set of the same thing he has now ... knowing some of the properties of urethane and it's inherent "memory", how do you come to the conclusion that the tires are stretched ???

In this particular instance, where the tires do not fit and remain in tension just on a friction fit, I think I might try running down to the local auto parts store and getting a tube of 3M's trim adhesive ... a small, continuous bead should help make them stick ... I really don't like the idea of some clumps of epoxy scattered around the wheel ... seems like it could cause the band to bounce every time it hit the high spots.

Bob
Inherent memory in urethane is not absolute, I would refer you to: http://www.moldeddimensions.com/compressionsetcreep.htm or any number of other reputable articles on creep and compression set. As far as glued or un-glued, whatever works for you.

Bob

[Myk Rian]

But the problem with SMC is someone always wants to play who has the bigger bandsaw.
Just a 1966 14" Delta here, but I do know when tires are bad/wrong size.


Myk. In a geostationary orbit.

[Rod Sheridan]

My Band saw has had the same urethane tires on it for 11 years, good as new and I never de-tension the blade.

Sounds like the tires are the wrong size or deffective...........Regards, Rod.

[ian maybury]

I'm no expert on bandsaw tyres, but spent some time designing and developing urethane coated trunnion wheels for large scale food processing machinery.

I'm a bit surprised at the practice of fitting an aftermarket urethane tyre to a bandsaw wheel. It's certainly the case that most industrial urethane tyres are cast in place on a shot blasted steel rim or similar before oven curing the heat curing two part urethane casting liquid.

Even at that the process is quite touchy. The metal type, surface finish, even minor amounts of contamination, the pre-heat temperature and all sorts of stuff make a big difference. We for example had to try several suppliers to get one that could deliver consistently reliable bonds.

It's generally the case that once the bond starts to separate at all from the wheel that the tyre fails very soon afterwards. The problem is basically that the pressure at the contact point will raise a 'pucker' of urethane ahead of it, with the result (quite apart from smooth running or tracking issues) that it gets more bending than it's able to handle and fails.

Some bandsaws like Agazzanis use cast in place tyres like this. There's lots of aftermarket urethane 'tyres' sold, but given the risk of the above it's hard not to think that they must have (a) fairly low load bearing capability, and (b) need to be stretched quite tightly around the wheel. That maybe they are basically just a slightly tougher alternative to a rubber tyre.

Some suggest bonding on urethane tyres, but it's not the easiest stuff to stick and I'd need some convincing that its truly durable. There's a Permabond F246 acrylic adhesive that's claimed to do bandsaw tyres in the UK, and you see mentions of some of the semi flexible 3M polyurethanes being used too - but it seems likely that it'd be important that the tire was tightly stretched so that the bond wasn't heavily worked.

It could be that the grade of urethane matters quite a bit too - some are inclined to exude an oily film....

ian

[Phil Thien]

I called woodcraft and they reffered me to carter. Carter (who answered on the first ring with a human being) said this happens when the wheel is under 14". I had the wheel in front of me and a measured it, 13 7/8". They said to use 2 part epoxy in 4 to 6 places around the wheel. I will try this today. The tires worked well for 8 months, however I think the recent changes in temperature and humidity and the wheel being under 14" caused this.

STOP!!!

Think about this for a second.

First, the epoxy isn't going to stick to the tires. But it IS going to stick to those wheels. You will never, ever, get it off.

Second, the entire under 14" wheels thing seems a bit odd to me. I wonder if we had everyone on this site measure their 14" bandsaw wheels, how many of them would find they are exactly 14". Aftermarket tires should take into account that the wheels probably aren't exactly 14".

Third, the tires worked for 8 months. I guarantee you, your wheels didn't shrink.

IMHO, a more likely scenario is that your tires were a bit on the large side. But they were new, so they worked.

Now that they have relaxed, they are lifting off the wheels.

The proper solution isn't to epoxy them to anything (as if you could). The proper solution is to replace them with properly sized tires.

If Carter is unwilling to replace them, I'd look up an outfit named Sulphur Grove. They sell replacement tires (orange ones) on eBay.

But I would never consider the epoxy thing.

[ian maybury]

:) That might have been what i was trying to say, but put a lot more directly. It's very unlikely that epoxy will stick urethane, and realistically unless the tyre is a tight/stretched fit it's likely to run into problems. Urethane is pretty stretchy stuff, so chances are the tyre is loose rather than the wheel too small.....

ian

[Myk Rian]

:) That might have been what i was trying to say, but put a lot more directly. It's very unlikely that epoxy will stick urethane, and realistically unless the tyre is a tight/stretched fit it's likely to run into problems. Urethane is pretty stretchy stuff, so chances are the tyre is loose rather than the wheel too small.....

ian
Which is what I, and others, said up-thread.
14" urethane tires are small enough to fit a 12" wheel, and need to be warmed in 140º water so they will stretch onto a 14" wheel.
14" wheels are not 14". They are slightly smaller so the tires make up the balance of the 14".
Either Woodcraft sold you bad/oversized, or tires meant for a 16" saw. Take them back and get the proper sized tires.

[Paul Steiner]

UPDATE: I epoxied the wheels on last week and the tires have about 20 hours of use on them now. They are working wonderfully. I appreciate everyone's input and concern but I went with epoxy because 1. Carter said epoxy has worked in the past. No offense to anyone but I would assume that Carter has more experience with bandsaw tires that any of us. 2. Getting a new set is still an option, but when you have a line ten students deep waiting to use a saw you need a fix today. 3. Epoxy cleans up with solvents like acetone and mineral spirits. If the epoxy sticks to the wheels and tires, GREAT! I will not have to clean off anything for a long time. If it does not stick well removing the epoxy should not be too much of a chore. I have cleaned expoxy of metal in the past, soak it and scrape it no big deal.

Now go ahead and make comments with out reading this post or my previous posts. You can comment on the damage I have done to the wheels or the terrible mistake I have made or that there is no way the saw is set up correctly. And if you want to throw in a passive aggressive personal attack on how I maintain my equipment feel free. While you are doing that I will be using the saw and supervising students using the saw. Look I have created an opportunity for one of you to post "you won't be using the saw and supervising students using the saw for very long"

I will post if there are anymore problems with the tires. For those of you are looking for answers to a similiar problem Epoxy works. I would recommend it if you need the problem fixed asap or you can not get a replacement without spending $72 to get it.

[Myk Rian]

I will post if there are anymore problems with the tires.
Please do.

[Dick Reeves]

Dick Reeves
Paul I have read your post regarding the problem you were having with the tires on your band saw. I too am having a similar problem. I would appreciate it if you would let me know if your wheels are flat (with grooves on them) or if they have flanges on the edges of the wheel. Any input from others reading this post will also be appreciated. My bands saw is a very old Craftsman with 12" wheels which are flat with grooves. I have also heard about "crowning" the tires but am ignorant as to the proper procedure.
Thanks for any assistance or suggestiions.

[Paul Steiner]

Dick,
The bandsaw and its tires are functioning perfectly. It gets at least 3 hours of use a day and there have not been any problems. Do you hear that Myk and Phil? Probably 100 hours on the tires and no problems, the engineers and technicians at Carter may know more about bandsaw tires than you after all.
My wheels have the rim or flange on the edge. Also these wheels are crowned. I would recommend epoxying them on, if you have a new set tires, I would not do this with an old set. Mix and spread the epoxy and the tires will be ready for use in 10 or 20 minutes. I have never crowned a wheel but learned about it in college. You can crown the wheel or the tire. I think it would be impossible to sand, scrape, or cut a tire not adhered to the wheel.
Dick you are very brave for posting here looking for advice. As you have seen, when you ask for advice you are opening yourself up for personal attack your machine maintenance and setup.
Also I found this on crowning I think it will help you.
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/how-crown-new-bandsaw-tires

[Myk Rian]

Just as long as you let us know when the epoxy lets loose.
The majority of responders don't agree with it.

[Mark Levitski]

Well, I guess I'll politely chime in. I replaced my tires with the orange ones (Olson) and they have lasted longer than the originals. No adhesive, I just stretched them on without a problem. I, for one, would not put any glue on my wheels to merely push off confronting this in the future.

For me, "Carter is not smarter."

[Rich Riddle]

Guess I am old fashioned. I use rubber tires glued to the wheels and then crown them. It's usually a bit messy, yet effective.

[Myk Rian]

Rubber tires need to be glued on.

[Phil Thien]

Dick,
The bandsaw and its tires are functioning perfectly. It gets at least 3 hours of use a day and there have not been any problems. Do you hear that Myk and Phil? Probably 100 hours on the tires and no problems, the engineers and technicians at Carter may know more about bandsaw tires than you after all.
My wheels have the rim or flange on the edge. Also these wheels are crowned. I would recommend epoxying them on, if you have a new set tires, I would not do this with an old set. Mix and spread the epoxy and the tires will be ready for use in 10 or 20 minutes. I have never crowned a wheel but learned about it in college. You can crown the wheel or the tire. I think it would be impossible to sand, scrape, or cut a tire not adhered to the wheel.
Dick you are very brave for posting here looking for advice. As you have seen, when you ask for advice you are opening yourself up for personal attack your machine maintenance and setup.
Also I found this on crowning I think it will help you.
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/how-crown-new-bandsaw-tires

I still would highly discourage anyone from using epoxy to apply urethane tires to their wheels. Urethane rubber is "adhesive resistant," you need a specially formulated adhesive for any chance of sticking to urethane. And epoxy isn't it.

Also, I disagree that cured epoxy can be removed with commonly available solvents like acetone. That simply hasn't been my experience. There are chemical epoxy strippers, they're pretty nasty stuff.

In addition, the Carter web page seems to indicate that they don't recommend any adhesives for their urethane tires, only their rubber tires (I think those are neoprene). And in the case of the rubber tires, they only suggest their "specially formulated" epoxy for tires 20" and larger (though they have another adhesive for tires 20" and smaller, so it seems like you could go either way on 20").

http://www.carterproducts.com/product_list.asp?cat_id=15

To anyone considering using epoxy on urethane tires, I'd suggest mixing a small batch and just dabbing it on a tire. Let it cure and then try using your fingernail to remove the cured epoxy. If it seems to come off with ease, then you have your answer on whether epoxy is the correct adhesive for this application.

Paul, I'm sorry you have taken anything I've written as a personal attack. If you really feel any of my posts seem to be attacking you, you're welcome to click on the "report this post" icon (it is the little exclamation point in the triangle). The moderators will be notified and will edit or remove my posts.

[Cyrus Brewster 7]

Dick you are very brave for posting here looking for advice. As you have seen, when you ask for advice you are opening yourself up for personal attack your machine maintenance and setup.
Also I found this on crowning I think it will help you.

I may not post here often (I have been out of commission for awhile), but I try to help when I can.

With that said, this statement seems a bit antagonistic. The bit of advise from Myk was, just maybe, the simplest approach to the problem. Sometimes simplicity is overlooked when trying to get to the bottom of an issue. If you had already ruled out set-up, as Myk suggested, then great, say thanks and move on.

As for Phil, he just offered an alternative avenue to take. There was nothing personal at all about his post. He even went out of his way to concisely explain everything he was trying to say - namely, that you may have gotten misinformation from Carter. He was not even attacking them. The only thing I took form Phil was that he was just trying to give your some additional information in order to help you make a decision you were comfortable with.

If you do not like advise you are given then ignore it, but please try not to turn it around and call it a personal attack if you happen to disagree.

[Rick Fisher]

I had this problem with a 24" Bandsaw .. Sulphur Grove Urethane tires ..

I posted here quite a few years ago and was told by a member to use Urethane based Hair spray .. Lift up the edge of the wheel and spray it in ..

I was sceptical, but frustrated with the tires, so I checked the wife's hair spray.. it was Urethane based...

I did it exactly as told, and its been years since the tires have moved.

The Urethane hair spray forms into a sort of pressure sensitive adhesive .. I can lift the tires but they make a sticky sound ..

I didn't believe it would work either, but it worked like a charm ..

For what its worth .. the wheels on my 24" Saw are not co-planar.. or perfectly aligned.. they never have been, never where .. its a myth that they should be .. SCM bandsaws of that era used a T-shaped rubber tire.. because, I assume it took a T shape to keep the rubber tire in place and as Phil said, epoxy is a less than ideal solution ..

Anyway .. Try hair spray .. it works . and its weird ..

[ian maybury]

+1 and to repeat - and this isn't a personal attack, just reasonably widely published information.

Standard epoxies don't bond to polyurethane very effectively http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesives-for-polyurethane.htm (there are specialist grades that can), and cured epoxy isn't the easiest material to remove or dissolve. http://tiny.cc/wjrkmw

To use or not to use is a personal choice...

ian