Another "this vs. that" table saw question - PM 2000 vs. G0691

[Michael Koons]

I had a bit of a financial windfall and have come to the conclusion that it's time to replace my 20 year old contractor saw. As I am slowly buying or replacing old tools in my shop, my philosophy is always "this is the last one of these I ever want to buy" and I am slowing acquiring the foundations of my dream shop. With that in mind, I will always emphasize quality, durability and precision over price.

For me, there are only two table saw choices. The PM2000 ($3000) or the G0691 ($1600) total cost, including shipping. The reason is, if I'm going to go for quality, go all-in with the Powermatic. The low cost of the Grizzly is too low to ignore and therefore the root of my question. I read Jon Leigh's PM2000 review and pics from 2010 and was very impressed.

How does the group feel about the price difference? What are the major differences that justify PM's $1400 premium? Any thoughts from the group are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Mike

[glenn bradley]

You will get mixed responses here as some folks bleed mustard regardless of the higher price tag and some folks think "all that stuff is made in the same place" and only look at price. It seems that almost all makers have good and bad items. Some they do very well and some they take a bashing on. In your case you have picked two makers and particular products that both get rated very well by owners and independent (not advertiser based) reviewers.

If I was going to spend $3000-plus I would add Saw Stop to the mix. Safety mechanism or not, the saws get very well rated. If you go with the Griz, pick yourself up an 8" spiral head jointer with the change from your $3k. If you go with the PM, remember to zero the blade tilt before you lower those casters :D:D:D. Seriously, both those machines get large amounts of praise from non-biased folks.

[Steven Hsieh]

For 3K I would get the sawstop instead the grizzly or powermatic.

[Jack Wilson50]

Or a Delta UNI

[Joe Leigh]

Tools Plus has the 30" model PM2000 with 3H.P. for $2899 with free liftgate delivery.

Some of the differences on the PM are a larger table, built in caster system (not important to everyone), forged handwheels, beefier trunnion, nicer fence (the rip fence not the crosscut fence), nicer stop/start switch, single serpentine belt, and arbor lock for easier blade changing (a good thing).

[Michael W. Clark]

Michael,
I would like to be in your situation. I have a Grizzly 1023 and have been very happy with it and no complaints. It would be best if you could put your hands on the two machines before making your decision. Either one will be a big step up from your contractor saw.

If I were you, I would evaluate my tool budget vs. what I want/need in the way of machinery. Like Glen said, you could get the saw and a jointer for the same price as the PM. Whichever one you buy, I think you will be pleased. I also second the comment about including the Delta Uni and Sawstop in your considerations.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well I'd buy a used Powermatic 66 for less than $1k and have the best saw in it's class and plenty of money left over for blades and other goodies....but that's just me;)

good luck,
JeffD

[John R Hoppe]

Well I'd buy a used Powermatic 66 for less than $1k and have the best saw in it's class and plenty of money left over for blades and other goodies....but that's just me;)

good luck,
JeffD

I did just that, and bought the Grizzly G0490X 8" jointer as mentioned above ;)

[Damon Stathatos]

...With that in mind, I will always emphasize quality, durability and precision over price.

+1 on old 'arn. Make it 3ph old 'arn, pick yourself up a 3ph converter, and end up with a saw that's a 'living testament' to all that you're looking for and do so at pennies/nickles/dimes on the 'new' dollar. They don't 'build-em-like-they-used-to' because they can't afford to do it anymore, no one would be able to afford to buy them. Northfield still builds-em-like-they-used-to, their #4 table saw's around $10-15k. I bought one with a 4 roll stock feeder for under $1k. I bought an old PM68 with 'acres' of cast iron (38"x72" cast top) for well under $1k. Are they 'pretty-lookin?'...not if your standard is shiny and pristine...but now, in my eye, they're prettier than anything on a showroom floor...that's for sure. Why you ask?...because they work...flawlessly...have been since before I was born and will be here long after I'm dead and gone. If you're interested, there's a lot more info about both of them on my homepage.

Build yourself a 3ph shop and never look back.

[Paul McGaha]

Michael,

I would encourage you to take a hard look at used tools. The last couple of stationary tools that came into my shop were a Delta 3 HP Shaper and a Delta 16/32 Drum Sander. Cream Puffs bought from Creekers at about 50% of new pricing. The rest of the tools in my shop were bought new. No real regrets but if I had to do it again I would try to buy all the tools in the shop either from creekers or my local craigslist. Good to save some when you can.

There have been a couple of really nice Powermatic 66's on the classified ads just recently. One in California and the other one in Indiana. Not sure where you live.

PHM

[David Kumm]

While used isn't for everyone it gets you much higher quality if done carefully. $3K will even get you a great slider. Dave

[Don Jarvie]

+1 of seeing if something used may pop up if your not in any particular hurry.

[Mike Heidrick]

PM66 (a PM2000 is very similar - I have that pic somewhere too)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/PM66trunnion.jpg

Grizzly G1023
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/G1023trunnion1.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/g1023trunnion2.jpg

Sawstop
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ss.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ssbearing.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ss3.jpg

[Cary Falk]

Out of the 2 choices you listed I would pick Grizzly. If you are going to pay PM money I would go SawStop. The Grizzly is a very nice saw and you could use the rest on something else. You won't be able to tell if your project was built on the Grizzly or the PM. Used is nice sometimes if your market is good. Older table saws dow not have riving knives. I know a splitter can do the same thing but a riving knife is much nicer. I traded in a Uni with a splitter for a Grizzly 1023RL with a riving knife. I liked my Uni. I love my Grizzly.

[Bernie May]

personally I would buy the Sawstop PCS. But if not, get something with a riving knife. A splitter is no substitute for a riving knife.

[Joseph Tarantino]

....... The reason is, if I'm going to go for quality, go all-in with the Powermatic

if you're looking for a quality cabinet saw, powermatic certainly isn't the place to look. they are now, IMHO, decidedly average tools that are trading on the snob appeal of a bygone day. unless of course you're convinced that gold paint is worth $1400.

......... What are the major differences that justify PM's $1400 premium?

again, IMHO, there aren't any. as has already been pointed out, a similarly sized grizzly will do whatever the PM will do while costing less.

but don't listen to me. read the review of cabinet saws that was done in wood magazine. jet and powermatic were conspicuous by their absence from either the top tool or top value categories. sawstop and delta were top tools and grizzly was top value. and there are great deals on CL for those with the patience and the knowledge of what tools are really worth.

but hey, if owning the "gold standard" (HA!) in power tools is that important to you, waste away.

[Mike Heidrick]

I love the riving knife. I only remove it for dado cuts.

If you want a yellow tool - paint it.

I would not kick a reasonably priced Baldor equipped PM66 out of the shop though, riving knife or not! Likely all the mass and stability you would EVER need!

Not trading it for my ICS though.

[scott spencer]

PM66 (a PM2000 is very similar - I have that pic somewhere too)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/PM66trunnion.jpg

Grizzly G1023
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/G1023trunnion1.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/g1023trunnion2.jpg

Sawstop
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ss.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ssbearing.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ss3.jpg

Mike - The two pics shown for the Griz 1023 are two older models G1023S and G1023SL that are no longer available. The updated G1023RL series and the G0690 trunnions are shown below:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/g1023rl_det1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Slide1-3.jpg

[Joe Leigh]

Thanks for pointing that out Scott, I was wondering if anyone else picked up on it.

[Ben Martin]

And this should be mentioned just in case you think buying Grizzly is getting something that you can't buy for much cheaper. The running gear under a Delta Unisaw that was the same from 1939-200?

Coincidence, I think not...

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Part_Two_Blog_Opener.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/g1023trunnion2.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

I would never buy another cabinet saw unless it was a SawStop, and even then I wouldn't buy it.

Have a serious look at the Hammer K3 saw, far more capacity and capability than a dinosaur age cabinet saw. The only thing a cabinet saw does well is rip, crosscut capacity is what, maybe 12" with no support for longer pieces?

I replaced my General 650 with a Hammer B3 Winner, best decision I ever made, I can crosscut a sheet of plywood with ease (I have the outrigger), straight line rip, and it has scoring, all in a package that's the same footprint as my old cabinet saw.

The outriggger table comes of in 20 seconds with no tools, so when I'm not using the outrigger, it's a compact saw, need to crosscut long stuff or a sheet of ply, stick the outrigger table back on in 30 seconds.

Do yourself a favour and look at the small sliders from Felder/Hammer and MiniMax..............Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

Sliders are pretty nice, there is a great looking Griggio on Woodweb. Keep in mind that if you are assessing a saw based on the trunnion design- not totally fair unless you know the quality of the casting- you must also look at the base it attaches to to. A heavy trunnion attached to a flimsy base is not an improvement. The days of the 1/4" steel bases are gone but it is worth considering as more cost cutting is done on the base than the trunnion as that is what everyone looks at Some old saws do indeed have riving knives. Not common but a possibility. Best riving knife- use the bandsaw when ripping any questionable wood and particularly anything not dried below about 12%. Dave

[Joseph Tarantino]

Mike - The two pics shown for the Griz 1023 are two older models G1023S and G1023SL that are no longer available. The updated G1023RL series and the G0690 trunnions are shown below:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/g1023rl_det1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Slide1-3.jpg

much as i dislike jet and powermatic, in the interest of accuracy, the trunions of the 2000 appear to be more substantial than those of the 66. page 35 of this OM shows a drawing of the trunions and they appear to be more like those of the unisaw (wider, spanning the width of the cabinet):

http://content.powermatic.com/manuals/1792000K_man.pdf

[David Kumm]

Whether true or not the older PM 66 trunnion style was their claim to fame vs the Unisaw design. I have no opinion but would not consider either superior to the other. PM did use high quality Meehanite castings. Dave

[Joe Leigh]

Gotta love how these threads morph....
The OP asks about the comparison between two specific makes and models and after one or two relevant replies gets the same old tired responses.

"Check Craigslist"
"Why not look into a used saw?"
"Powermatic/Jet suck"
"I love my Sawstop"
"I despise Sawstop"
"You're better off with a slider"
"My trunnion is bigger than your trunnion"
"Unisaw is not made in the USA"
"Unisaw is made in the USA"
"You really don't need a riving knife"

..and my favorite

"Give me that "old 'arn anyday" ....blah blah blah...

[David Kumm]

[QUOTE=Joe Leigh;1981523]Gotta love how these threads morph....
The OP asks about the comparison between two specific makes and models and after one or two relevant replies gets the same old tired responses.


On the other hand, if I ask opinions about two average surgeons I would hope the name of a really good one would be considered a relevant response. Dave

[Doug Richardson]

Greetings:

I purchased a G0651 several months back after looking at all the "big name brands" in person at the local dealers. I am completely satisfied with the quality of the saw, and I am definitely a nitpicker! Their customer service department has been great to me, enough so that I spent the money I saved on one of their dust collectors and a drill press since then. And yes, I can set a nickel on the tabletop, and it doesn't fall over when I turn on the saw, just like everybody else..... lol!

[scott spencer]

Ya just never know what tidbit the OP might have missed during their research. The good news is that they're free to dismiss any information that they feel isn't pertinent.

[Michael Koons]

Being the original OP, wanted to circle back. :)

I loved where the thread went because it taught me things are not as simple as I put them. (I knew they never were.)

- I don't think I can do used because I don't have the time for find that gem that comes up on CL or others. Even if I can find a used one, I don't have the skills or time to make sure the one I find is in the shape I need. I do extensive traveling with my job and I use all my free time as shop time. :)

- I ruled out Delta because in my 20 years of hobbyist woodworking, I've had problems with 2 Delta tools. Once I have quality or accuracy problems with a specific vendor, I rule them out. My simple way of keeping the power of the consumer.

- I ruled out SawStop because I don't like their behavior in the regulatory world. Just my opinion, which I never force on anyone else. But I don't like how they're working with regulators, so it's a case where I'm applying my personal philosophies to my purchasing decisions. Again, personal choice and I respect other opinions that are counter to mine.

- I loved the picture posts because they helped me understand the guts of the machines so much better.

- I've seen the suggestions of "don't buy the PM, buy the Griz + an 8" jointer". I actually bought the PM 882 jointer last year and I found out what it was like to actually fall in love with a tool. The quality and performance what something I had not experienced before. Now I want to bring that feeling to my TS experience.

- I haven't landed on a decision yet but am actually leaning towards the Grizzly. To the point above, even thought I have an awesome jointer, I need to upgrade my DC and am thinking of buying the Griz TS AND the G0440 Cyclone DC. Not 100% but close.

- I'm coming to the conclusion that I will experience the same fit and finish, quality and performance on the Griz as I will the PM. At least as an amateur woodworking.

Thank you guys so much for the feedback. I've been following this thread so closely over the past few days and have appreciated all of the responses because they have either expanded my thinking or made me consider things I hadn't considered before.

Any I chuckled at Joe's observation on how the thread has morphed. I noticed it as well. I just tried to extract every nugget of expertise I could from the awesome posters!

Thanks again everyone.

[Joe Leigh]

It's all good Michael, just thought it was humorous how some threads get totally detoured. Everyones opinion has some value and there are certainly things to learn from the expertise on this site.
I did however find the table saw/surgeon analogy to be a bit interesting...:eek:.

Good luck with your choice as you can't go wrong with either one.

[Mike Heidrick]

much as i dislike jet and powermatic, in the interest of accuracy, the trunions of the 2000 appear to be more substantial than those of the 66. page 35 of this OM shows a drawing of the trunions and they appear to be more like those of the unisaw (wider, spanning the width of the cabinet):

http://content.powermatic.com/manuals/1792000K_man.pdf

PM2000 Trunion pic courtesy of Joe Leigh.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm one who always feel's more info is better than less. Kinda like when someone asks a question without giving all the details, makes it hard to give any decent advice....same with answers, better to type a few extra words, (assuming they're encouraging), vs a yes or no answer;)

Not to Hi-Jack the thread even more, but since it came up having used both, and owned a couple Unisaws.....I'd put the Powermatic 66 as the better saw every time:D

OK back to the OP....one thing I'd advise is to be careful when judging an equipment company on one or two tools. For instance, the Delta tools you may buy at the local home center....are all pretty much junk in my opinion. The industrial Delta stuff is pretty good and I still have several machines in my shop. To take it even one step further, some companies make a full line of machines where one or two really shine, but the rest may be average. I have no experience with the new Delta saw, but keep in mind, there are more Delta Unisaws in use in this country today, in both home and professional shops, than any other brand by a wide margin. So they're probably not all that bad;)

good luck with whichever new machine you pick,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

Back to saws and away from surgery, if I needed one saw with the most versatility and didn't want used I'd look at the Hammer short stroke slider. No downside compared to a traditional and for minimal extra a sliding table. Even for non case work a slider spoils you in a hurry. The Hammer stuff is priced real well for what you get now and a much better deal than in the past. Make a comparison between the Grizzly and the Hammer short sliders rather than the fixed table units and then decide what will work best for the long term. Dave

[Michael Koons]

David,

Which models are you referring to? I'm not familiar with the Hammer line and don't know how "short stroke" is defined in this context.

[David Kumm]

I think the K3 winner 31x31 is on promotion at 3K and the 31x48 at 3250. I was not a hammer fan but saw the new line at Atlanta and was very impressed. I'm a used guy but for $3K with a decent slider, 4 hp motor, good fence and new is pretty sweet. I'm such a fan of sliders I use three ranging from 18" to 10'. Ripping against the fence on a long slider is a bad deal but on a short one it is just like a regular saw but with a 31" crosscut capacity- kind of for free. Dave

[Michael Koons]

The slider does look really nice. And the price looks good (at least in my range) until I add the $500 shipping cost. I live in Colorado and do not have an outlet near me. Nice thing about PM and Griz is that shipping is either free (PM) or reasonable (Griz). Adding the 16% puts it out of the high end of my price range.

[Rod Sheridan]

The slider does look really nice. And the price looks good (at least in my range) until I add the $500 shipping cost. I live in Colorado and do not have an outlet near me. Nice thing about PM and Griz is that shipping is either free (PM) or reasonable (Griz). Adding the 16% puts it out of the high end of my price range.

Too bad, the K3 really is the way to go........Rod.

[Damon Stathatos]

Gotta love how these threads morph....
The OP asks about the comparison between two specific makes and models and after one or two relevant replies gets the same old tired responses.
....blah blah blah...

Being the original OP, wanted to circle back. :)
I loved where the thread went because it taught me things are not as simple as I put them. (I knew they never were.)
...Thanks again everyone.

Now I'm conflicted...give what you think is good advice or simple yes or no answers ? I'm thinking this would be a pretty boring forum with one word posts, no ?

Michael - best to you whatever your decision.

[Tony Leonard]

While I can't offer a comparison, I have owned the PM2000 for a couple of years now. For reference, my last saw was a Delta CS. I have been nothing but happy with the PM2000. No issues. It is a pleasure to use. Let me qualify my statements...I build furniture mostly out of mahogany, cherry, walnut, maple, etc. I cut thick leg stock now and then. Rarely cut any plywood. The fence is good and solid. The whole saw is good and solid! The dust collection is good. I just really can't find anything wrong with it. It has been so nice to buy something and not have any problems with it! I have a small shop and the casters come in handy. I added a Brett Guard because I had it and I like them. Also added an outfeed table. I have owned a Griz jointer for aroudn 14 years. Had some initial issues, but it has been a good tool. Anyway, enjoy whatever you end up with. I was hesitant to take the plunge, but I'm glad I did. I have really enjoyed having this saw. Oh, I am using a Forest WWII blade. Cuts great.


Tony

[Kyle Tucker]

Michael,

Not understanding your financial situation, but lets just say that money is not an issue, go with the SawStop. You wont regret it. If you need some left over dough to purchase one or more "dream machines" look past the G0691 from Grizzly and go with the 1023 model. It has been around forever and was recently upgraded a year or two ago with the riving knife and in cabinet dust collection. I just don't think you can beat the Grizzly for the money. I've had mine for a few months now and am very very happy. I would have probably been happier with the SawStop to be honest, strictly because of the piece of mind it comes with, but I have no regrets with my purchase. FYI, Grizzly's customer service is very good as well, my front rail was damaged in shipping and the sent me a new one ASAP, quick and easy. Also, if you go with the 50"fence and the mobile kit, the instructions are nothing short of terrible, but thats my only gripe thus far. Good luck.

[Stephen Cherry]

I think the K3 winner 31x31 is on promotion at 3K and the 31x48 at 3250. I was not a hammer fan but saw the new line at Atlanta and was very impressed. I'm a used guy but for $3K with a decent slider, 4 hp motor, good fence and new is pretty sweet. I'm such a fan of sliders I use three ranging from 18" to 10'. Ripping against the fence on a long slider is a bad deal but on a short one it is just like a regular saw but with a 31" crosscut capacity- kind of for free. Dave


And the answer is, the hammer machine, but with a shaper attached. What more could you want than a saw, a shaper, and a slide to guide them? (and good dust collection)

Plus, Felder (hammer) actually has real people there to try to sell you their stuff.
http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/saw-shapers/sawshaper-b3-basic-videos.html

[Rod Sheridan]

And the answer is, the hammer machine, but with a shaper attached. What more could you want than a saw, a shaper, and a slide to guide them? (and good dust collection)

Plus, Felder (hammer) actually has real people there to try to sell you their stuff.
http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/saw-shapers/sawshaper-b3-basic-videos.html

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue, I have the B3 Winner with the optional outrigger, fantastic............Rod.

[Kevin W Johnson]

There's a newer 3ph, 5hp PM66 (mustard yellow) on CL 5 minutes down the road from me for $650, also has a Corian extension table. An absolute steal..... when compared to new pricing. I still think you're missing an opportunity in bypassing used saws. It really is a buyers market, and the older stuff beats the new unless you're looking for specific features (riving knife, blade stop tech, etc). Add a VFD, and it'd be sweet. If I didn't already have a PM66, I'd already have it myself.

I do agree with your opinion on SS. Their tactics in lobbying for mandates leaves a bad taste in my mouth. While I have had the opportunity to use one, and actually trip the blade brake with a hot dog, I just don't know if I could actually bring one home and support them in their "quest". Sadly, the SS is the only saw that would currently get me to the buying a new saw category if not for their actions.

[Guy Belleman]

+1 for the Grizzly, although if I had the money and space, I would look the sliding tables on the G0700 and G0623X. The Hammer looks like a really nice option too.