Mortising Technique

[Roy Lindberry]

I've spent some time watching and reading different people for mortising technique and had lots of trouble. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA&list=UUc3EpWncNq5QL0QhwUNQb7w&index=6&feature=plcp) shows Paul Sellers' approach and I spent yesterday in the shop chopping mortises which were faster and cleaner than my previous attempts. I haven't yet tried it with the bench chisel, since my bench chisels are Imperial and my mortise chisels are metric and I already had them laid out. Either way, I was impressed.

What technique do you prefer for chopping mortises?

[Jim Koepke]

Sharp end of chisel toward the wood, hit other end of chisel with mallet. Repeat as needed. :D

Just couldn't resist.

jtk

[Richard Line]

Gee, Paul Sellers seems to use Jim's approach. I did find his approach quite interesting, and I'm going to have to give it a try.

[Ryan Baker]

The way Paul Sellers is doing it is the way I have always done it. Fast and easy. And it requires almost no prying.

[Joe Cunningham]

I'll have to give that a try. I have some Irwins I almost never use anymore.

[lowell holmes]

I attended a Craftsman Rocking Chair class conducted by Paul Sellers a number of years ago. If my memory serves me, there we 45 mortise and tenon joints, all made with Marples blue handle bevel edge chisels. They taught us to make 3 mallet strikes and then lever. I never broke or bent one of the chisels. It works.


If you are interested, google Homestead Heritage.

[Adam Cruea]

No way I'm using a bevel edge to make a mortise. I'd snap the thing. lol

I'm not really sure why you'd let the sides of your tool define the sides of your mortise to begin with. . .choose a slightly smaller mortiser and use your paring chisels to pare out the rest of the marked tenon. *shrug* Meh, 6 of one, etc etc.

I feel safer using the D2 steel that is more adept for taking a beating than the A2 in my paring chisels. I've had steel snap. . .can't say I want to experience that again.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not really sure why you'd let the sides of your tool define the sides of your mortise to begin with. . .

Kind of the old tale of what comes first, the mortise of the tenon.

When whacking out a few mortises, the paring doesn't take too much time.

When whacking out a lot of mortises, it is great to mortise to the tool and then cut each tenon to fit.

So the answer to why one lets the side of the chisel define the sides of the mortise is a matter of time.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I always drill out my mortises and then clean up with a chisel. I've found I can do mortises much more accurately that way.

Also, I always do the mortise first and then fit the tenon to the mortise. I make the tenon just a bit fat and then trim.

Mike

[Adam Cruea]

Kind of the old tale of what comes first, the mortise of the tenon.

When whacking out a few mortises, the paring doesn't take too much time.

When whacking out a lot of mortises, it is great to mortise to the tool and then cut each tenon to fit.

So the answer to why one lets the side of the chisel define the sides of the mortise is a matter of time.

jtk

Dumb question, but how much time does it save? I'm always afraid of the mortiser jumping a little and me overshooting the line (of course, I'm kind of shaky).

Just curious. I find woodworking relaxing, so I can't really imagine wanting to get done with something I enjoy faster.

[Jim Koepke]

Just curious. I find woodworking relaxing, so I can't really imagine wanting to get done with something I enjoy faster.

I also like the relaxing nature of the woodworking that is just done for fun.

Sometimes though my woodworking is for sale and the quicker it is done, the better my hourly rate of pay.

I have not had a problem getting a good straight mortise with just a mortise chisel. ymmv

jtk

[David Posey]

I don't see having the chisel define the walls of your mortise as being a matter of speed only, but also one of accuracy.

It is fairly easy for me to make a chisel cut exactly perpendicular to the surface of the work, but not so easy to pare down into a mortise so that the walls are perfectly square. It is not as easy to see what you are doing, and you need to change the orientation of your body to the workpiece.

Mortise chisels also have the advantage of leaving walls that are fairly flat as they shear and scrape the walls as they work.

[lowell holmes]

241352


I have bevel edge chisels, LN mortise chisels, and Ray Iles Pigsticker chisels.. They all work. The 1" square through mortise was chopped with a 1" LN bevel edge chisel.

Use the one you are comfortable with, but you can cut precise mortised with bench chisels.

[Adam Cruea]

Use the one you are comfortable with. . . *snip*

Good advice, good advice. :)

[David Weaver]

I would rather have a decent tapered oval bolstered or sash mortise chisel. I played with the bevel edge chisel (even used a marples) to see if I could find the speed difference he supposedly finds, but I found the RI (or any more properly sized mortise chisel) to be faster and more accurate.

The thing he uses to compare to the bevel chisel in his video looks like a fence post - i don't know who in their right mind would use something that large and blunt for cabinetmaking.

If budget constraint is an issue...like a severe one, the bench chisels are fine. If you can even afford a small tapered sash mortise chisel like the narex, I would much rather have that. The difference is like shooting a rifle off of a bench rest (with the mortise chisel) vs. being forced to shoot freehand (when the bench chisel attempts to turn, you'll see what I mean, you don't get that twisting with a tapered mortise chisel).

[Charlie Stanford]

I would rather have a decent tapered oval bolstered or sash mortise chisel. I played with the bevel edge chisel (even used a marples) to see if I could find the speed difference he supposedly finds, but I found the RI (or any more properly sized mortise chisel) to be faster and more accurate.

The thing he uses to compare to the bevel chisel in his video looks like a fence post - i don't know who in their right mind would use something that large and blunt for cabinetmaking.

If budget constraint is an issue...like a severe one, the bench chisels are fine. If you can even afford a small tapered sash mortise chisel like the narex, I would much rather have that. The difference is like shooting a rifle off of a bench rest (with the mortise chisel) vs. being forced to shoot freehand (when the bench chisel attempts to turn, you'll see what I mean, you don't get that twisting with a tapered mortise chisel).

David, it's awfully difficult to argue with video and two mortises cut side by side in real time and apparently unedited. Be frustrated with yourself, not Sellers. The results, simply, speak for themselves. Your inability to replicate them has nothing to do with Sellers.

[David Weaver]

Charles, troll somewhere else.

Read the comment at the bottom of this page of a *properly* sized oval bolstered mortise chisel. I wonder why it wasn't said about a bench chisel.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TBMC/item/MS-MORT.XX/English_Mortise_Chisels_by_Ray_Iles

"The best chisel I have ever used." - Paul Sellers

[Charlie Stanford]

Charles, troll somewhere else.

Read the comment at the bottom of this page of a *properly* sized oval bolstered mortise chisel. I wonder why it wasn't said about a bench chisel.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TBMC/item/MS-MORT.XX/English_Mortise_Chisels_by_Ray_Iles

"The best chisel I have ever used." - Paul Sellers





In the intro to the video Sellers clearly states that there is a time and a place for using a traditional mortise chisel. Frankly, there really wasn't much to criticize about the first mortise he cut. One can only wonder why you insist on finding a bone to pick. Nobody else really has. What's up with that? You seem to want to stand in front of the freight train of obvious success and scream that it's moving down the tracks all wrong. Splat.

[David Weaver]

Charles, you might as well cut and paste your posts from a different forum, it's worse than a broken record. Anyone here can make up their own mind which way they prefer by actually going to the shop and trying both, there's plenty of people already trumpeting the experience of someone else's in a video as their own.

If I would've used a fence post mortise chisel like is used in the video, I would've come to the same conclusion. Using a reasonably sized mortise chisel, I didn't. That simple, and if other people didn't think the desire of the bench chisel to twist was annoying, they wouldn't have commented the same in the video.

Who'd figure you'd get trolled for actual experience vs. pitching someone else's video?

[Charlie Stanford]

Charles, you might as well cut and paste your posts from a different forum, it's worse than a broken record. Anyone here can make up their own mind which way they prefer by actually going to the shop and trying both, there's plenty of people already trumpeting the experience of someone else's in a video as their own.

If I would've used a fence post mortise chisel like is used in the video, I would've come to the same conclusion. Using a reasonably sized mortise chisel, I didn't. That simple, and if other people didn't think the desire of the bench chisel to twist was annoying, they wouldn't have commented the same in the video.

Who'd figure you'd get trolled for actual experience vs. pitching someone else's video?

David, I'm afraid you're the broken record. Anybody who disagrees with you or draws attention to your incessant whining when some bubble of yours is burst is automatically a 'troll.' You've peed and moaned about the Sellers video all over the internet.

I don't really understand the term 'fence post mortise chisel.' Nor the obviously subjective 'reasonably sized' mortise chisel either. Maybe it would be easier if you posted your own video to show us exactly what you mean. In the meantime, nothing you've said, observed, claimed to have achieved in your own shop, or attempted to point out takes anything away from Sellers cutting two nice mortises, with two different chisels, and in a very respectable amount of time.

Buy a piece of plexiglass and please show us all how it's supposed to be done.

[Roy Lindberry]

David, I'm afraid you're the broken record. Anybody who disagrees with you or draws attention to your incessant whining when some bubble of yours is burst is automatically a 'troll.' You've peed and moaned about the Sellers video all over the internet.

I don't really understand the term 'fence post mortise chisel.' Nor the obviously subjective 'reasonably sized' mortise chisel either. Maybe it would be easier if you posted your own video to show us exactly what you mean. In the meantime, nothing you've said, observed, claimed to have achieved in your own shop, or attempted to point out takes anything away from Sellers cutting two nice mortises, with two different chisels, and in a very respectable amount of time.

Buy a piece of plexiglass and please show us all how it's supposed to be done.

If I could intervene....

Obviously, people will have different preferences. That's actually what the thread is about. Some people will prefer the bevel edge bench chisels, and some the beefier mortise chisels, and still others will like something in between. I would hope we could all respect that.

With that said, it seems to me that the point of Sellers' video wasn't about the chisel per se, but more about the technique of starting, going progressively deeper each step at the bevel of the chisel, and then returning the other direction. Most other processes I've found are more about deepening the mortise one layer at a time across its full width, and when I went to the shop, Sellers' method worked 10 times better than anything I've tried before - and remember, I wasn't using the bevel edged chisel. I was using a Narex mortise chisel. On my next project, I may try the bench chisels, just to see how they perform.

For now, it is enough that Sellers chopped two good mortises in the time in normally takes me to do a half a mortise, and my experience is that his technique, not necessarily the chisel, is responsible for that. It worked for me.

[Tri Hoang]

I actually tried Paul Sellers' mortising approach with a LN mortise chisel, a firmer bevel edge chisel, and a Ray Iles mortise chisel. I can say without any reservation that the firmer bevel edge chisel works best with his technique. The shorter bevel works better for leveraging in deep mortises. One's inability to use Paul's technique effectively does not invalidate it.

This man has 47+ years of practical woodworking experience. I rather learn from him than most other forum experts.

[Adam Cruea]

I actually tried Paul Sellers' mortising approach with a LN mortise chisel, a firmer bevel edge chisel, and a Ray Iles mortise chisel. I can say without any reservation that the firmer bevel edge chisel works best with his technique. The shorter bevel works better for leveraging in deep mortises. One's inability to use Paul's technique effectively does not invalidate it.

This man has 47+ years of practical woodworking experience. I rather learn from him than most other forum experts.

Just because a guy can do something speedy with a tool not necessarily meant for the job means that it is the right way, wrong way, or the best way. It's his way.

Not to sound trollish, yippee! He has 47+ years. Bake him a cake and give him a cigar. I've been in my profession 7 years and schooled people with 5 times the number of years in it.

Seniority and believing someone is right just because of the years they've spent in a profession is a pretty crappy mentality and perpetuates mistakes. Instead of pointing and saying "Ooooh, look! Mr. 'Done this all his life' did it this way! That's the right way.", realize that's the way *he* does it and *he* has found out it works. Obviously, his isn't the only right way, or the best way for everyone, as there is a reason there's enough demand for mortise chisels to get them produced.

If you're that worried about time and "getting done faster", use a drill press. :D Better yet, a mortise cutter. :P

Or you can just go about your business, say "This is how well it works for me, good for him that he can do it a different way" and go beat the snot out of some wood. :)

[Charlie Stanford]

If I could intervene....

Obviously, people will have different preferences. That's actually what the thread is about. Some people will prefer the bevel edge bench chisels, and some the beefier mortise chisels, and still others will like something in between. I would hope we could all respect that.

With that said, it seems to me that the point of Sellers' video wasn't about the chisel per se, but more about the technique of starting, going progressively deeper each step at the bevel of the chisel, and then returning the other direction. Most other processes I've found are more about deepening the mortise one layer at a time across its full width, and when I went to the shop, Sellers' method worked 10 times better than anything I've tried before - and remember, I wasn't using the bevel edged chisel. I was using a Narex mortise chisel. On my next project, I may try the bench chisels, just to see how they perform.

For now, it is enough that Sellers chopped two good mortises in the time in normally takes me to do a half a mortise, and my experience is that his technique, not necessarily the chisel, is responsible for that. It worked for me.

I don't doubt it a moment.

[Charlie Stanford]

You write as if you were almost being commanded to cut mortises using Sellers' technique. He cut two mortises well. That's indisputable. People are obviously free to simply ignore the video. If you found something that you'd call a "mistake" in the finished mortises I'd be very interested to know what they are.

[lowell holmes]

Paul is a gifted woodworker and an absolute gentleman. I've witnessed his skills many times and I am always blown away at how easily accomplishes joints.

He is a talented, patient teacher.

[David Weaver]

I actually tried Paul Sellers' mortising approach with a LN mortise chisel, a firmer bevel edge chisel, and a Ray Iles mortise chisel. I can say without any reservation that the firmer bevel edge chisel works best with his technique. The shorter bevel works better for leveraging in deep mortises. One's inability to use Paul's technique effectively does not invalidate it.

This man has 47+ years of practical woodworking experience. I rather learn from him than most other forum experts.

I haven't seen anyone on most forums insisting anyone learn anything from them. The forum is an exchange of information, not a class or technical manual.

I'm only aware of one expert on this section of the forum, who has a more impressive book of work than anyone I've seen on any blog or anyone offering fantasy camp classes. The only suggestion anyone else on here can really make is to try things for yourself and see how it works out.

[Tom Scott]

Paul is a gifted woodworker and an absolute gentleman. I've witnessed his skills many times and I am always blown away at how easily accomplishes joints.

He is a talented, patient teacher.

I couldn't agree more. Paul has probably forgotten more about woodworking than I have learned. You can dismiss his experience, but the fact is he went through a traditional hand tool apprenticeship in England and has been working professionally and teaching ever since. His techniques are not necessarily conventional and have come from his experience. Take it for what it's worth. Myself, I took a week long handtool course from him 15 years ago, didn't know jack squat before, and learned all the basics to set me down the path.
Do I still use bench chisels for mortises? No, but I have and could again if in a pinch. But, I still use the same technique I learned from Paul.

[Gaz Palmer]

The lesson to be learned - as intended by Paul Sellers - is that bevel edged and firmer chisels can be used to cut mortise if one lacks purpose made mortise chisels. Speed comes with practise and not necessarily at the cost of accuracy and Paul's videos and online activity tends toward encouraging novice woodworkers and enthusing the fact they don't need to invest heavily in tools in order to participate or carry out craft activities.

[Charlie Stanford]

The lesson to be learned - as intended by Paul Sellers - is that bevel edged and firmer chisels can be used to cut mortise if one lacks purpose made mortise chisels. Speed comes with practise and not necessarily at the cost of accuracy and Paul's videos and online activity tends toward encouraging novice woodworkers and enthusing the fact they don't need to invest heavily in tools in order to participate or carry out craft activities.

The original brouhaha over the Sellers video was when Paul posted his video shortly (within two weeks if memory serves) after Lie-Nielsen posted a video of Peter Follansbee chopping a mortise. Follansbee used a "traditional" (what a loaded term) pig sticker and produced what the more dispassionate saw as a barely average effort. Follansbee cut his mortise fairly quickly but the results were surprisingly rough and inaccurate, he clearly went past his end lines with the chisel and it just generally looked messier and haphazardly done. I'm sure the video is still available on YouTube if you haven't seen it.

Sellers' video was juxtaposed to Follansbee's on the forums at that time. Surprisingly, reactions lead one to believe that a lot of people thought Follansbee's technique must have represented the 'state of the art' in hand chopped mortise work. They didn't seem to like Mr. Sellers video since the mortise he chopped, first with a pig sticker, was cleaner and more accurate, cut in the same amount of time, and tended to show better technique in the joint. But the real kicker of course was when Sellers chopped a second mortise with a Blue Chip and the results were even cleaner AND faster.

Incredibly, Sellers is seen as an upstart by some which I'm sure gives him a huge chuckle given his age and experience.

[David Weaver]

The lesson to be learned - as intended by Paul Sellers - is that bevel edged and firmer chisels can be used to cut mortise if one lacks purpose made mortise chisels. Speed comes with practise and not necessarily at the cost of accuracy and Paul's videos and online activity tends toward encouraging novice woodworkers and enthusing the fact they don't need to invest heavily in tools in order to participate or carry out craft activities.

Well, if they work better for you or anyone else, then you could forego the mortise chisels completely. If they don't, sash mortise chisels are available now for about $15. One or two won't break the bank.

[David Weaver]

The original brouhaha over the Sellers video was when Paul posted his video shortly (within two weeks if memory serves) after Lie-Nielsen posted a video of Peter Follansbee chopping a mortise. Follansbee used a "traditional" (what a loaded term) pig sticker and produced what the more dispassionate saw as a barely average effort. Follansbee cut his mortise fairly quickly but the results were surprisingly rough and inaccurate, he clearly went past his end lines with the chisel and it just generally looked messier and haphazardly done. I'm sure the video is still available on YouTube if you haven't seen it.

Sellers' video was juxtaposed to Follansbee's on the forums at that time. Surprisingly, reactions lead one to believe that a lot of people thought Follansbee's technique must have represented the 'state of the art' in hand chopped mortise work. They didn't seem to like Mr. Sellers video since the mortise he chopped, first with a pig sticker, was cleaner and more accurate, cut in the same amount of time, and tended to show better technique in the joint. But the real kicker of course was when Sellers chopped a second mortise with a Blue Chip and the results were even cleaner AND faster.

Incredibly, Sellers is seen as an upstart by some which I'm sure gives him a huge chuckle given his age and experience.

I'm not sure who sees paul as an upstart, you can go read his blog and see otherwise pretty easily. He's certainly gotten the wagon and megaphone out and is going for another round of fantasy camp student recruitment.

You remember conversations differently than I do, the Sellers video was colored by an earlier discussion where I mentioned that Sellers was huckstering by offering essentially "fantasy camp", claiming that we all live dissatisfying lives because of the system we live in and that we'd be more satisfied if we lived in a craft economy instead of an industrial/financial economy. The false sentiment with that being the only reason he has students, a subsidized workplace and the ability to fly back and forth drumming up business is because of the disposable income an industrial economy provides. The notion that people were all contented and had a lovely life in a pre-industrial economy is false, instead most people lived in what would be considered beyond extreme poverty today.

I don't remember who brought up follansbee, but I think the person who did is in this thread.

If I recall, the biggest issue even in the first round of discussions was that a mortise chisel larger than any most of us have ever seen was chosen. Why not a RI chisel or a standard sash mortise chisel?

Maybe in 6 months, we'll poll the group and find out how many people have decided they prefer a bevel edge chisel enough to use it instead of their sash or their modern oval bolstered chisels. Clearly, all of the other 50-year woodworkers who use mortise chisels must just be misled.:rolleyes:

[Jack Curtis]

I've attended two woodworking classes at Homestead when Sellers was in charge of the program. One was 2 or 3 days of finishing, extremely well done, but certainly not of interest to this thread. The second was making a craftsman rocker taken as an individual tutorial (I refuse to relearn how to use hand tools). This second course was very well done, the resulting rocker was great, I learned a lot about how to manage more difficult joinery such as angled tenons, and how to build a leather seat. He teaches traditional, reliable, methods for building furniture.

I use mostly mortising chisels for mortising, my mortises are clean and everything fits together more or less on the first try; but Sellers methods work as well. Period. There is no need for dispersions of fantasy camp and the like. He offers much more, and none of it is diminished by his desire for a more traditional society.

[David Weaver]

Traditional is a transient term. In context now, traditional would be an industrial society, it's been in place for generations. Who knows what traditional would be in 300 years?

I think he's more specifically advocating a craft-based society. If people generally wanted that, it's what we'd have, though. What works well is an industrial economy for production, and a craft-based mentality for leisure for the folks who want that (and not for the ones who don't). The people who want that now have the luxury of being able to afford going to classes on chairs, even if it has nothing to do with how they make a living. No such thing would exist in a craft society.

I'm sure his classes are fine, he's been involved in classes here in the US from what I can tell, at least since 1984, and longer elsewhere. Essentially all of the courses (regardless of instructor) are like fantasy camps (at least what's marketed as such in baseball). People who do something else for a living go to the class for a week as an amateur, they're exposed to craft and experience craftsmen, they leave and they're still amateurs.

All of this other stuff is drawn out probably the product of various other threads, but my initial comment is still the point of this video, disregarding any of the discussions about sellers philosophy, classes, or Charles' underlying belief that he's been banned from forums due to opposition to modern toolmakers. I'm not really interested in more of it in this thread.

I'm more interested in what other users' experience is with a properly sized chisel, and whether or not they ultimately prefer to dump it and use a bevel edged chisel. If I can remember, we'll poll it in a month. That should give people plenty of time to try a half dozen mortises or so - it never hurts to pull out your kit and try something new and see what the results are.

[James Owen]

This thread has been quite amusing to read.....

It is exactly like the innumerable threads arguing about whether "Brand A" or "Brand B" water stones will give you a better edge.

Just go out in the shop a cut a mortise already.....the wood doesn't care how you do it.....and neither does your project.....

For most of us on this forum, this is a hobby.....cut mortises the way that brings you the most pleasure......

[Charlie Stanford]

I'm not sure who sees paul as an upstart, you can go read his blog and see otherwise pretty easily. He's certainly gotten the wagon and megaphone out and is going for another round of fantasy camp student recruitment.

You remember conversations differently than I do, the Sellers video was colored by an earlier discussion where I mentioned that Sellers was huckstering by offering essentially "fantasy camp", claiming that we all live dissatisfying lives because of the system we live in and that we'd be more satisfied if we lived in a craft economy instead of an industrial/financial economy. The false sentiment with that being the only reason he has students, a subsidized workplace and the ability to fly back and forth drumming up business is because of the disposable income an industrial economy provides. The notion that people were all contented and had a lovely life in a pre-industrial economy is false, instead most people lived in what would be considered beyond extreme poverty today.

I don't remember who brought up follansbee, but I think the person who did is in this thread.

If I recall, the biggest issue even in the first round of discussions was that a mortise chisel larger than any most of us have ever seen was chosen. Why not a RI chisel or a standard sash mortise chisel?

Maybe in 6 months, we'll poll the group and find out how many people have decided they prefer a bevel edge chisel enough to use it instead of their sash or their modern oval bolstered chisels. Clearly, all of the other 50-year woodworkers who use mortise chisels must just be misled.:rolleyes:

I really can't follow most of what you've written what with 'fantasy camps' and all of that. If Brits didn't have an innate fondness for the rural idyll and matters related we wouldn't have had the Arts and Crafts movement. Sellers is just one in a long line of perfectly sane and competent woodworkers with similar thinking. You seem uncharacteristically out of your depth on this.

With regard to the value of Sellers' courses - I have not taken one. I'm happy to let those who have comment on them.

The mortises still remain as they were, well done with both kinds of chisels. You still have not articulated why this bothers you so. He clearly stated that he uses both kinds of chisels though more often a bevel edged chisel. As such, your arched back seems oddly out of place.

[David Weaver]

Charles, once again you make accusations that are intentional twisting. I said clearly multiple times that I think it's a poor comparison because the mortise chisel used is unreasonably large, and I have yet to see someone stand up and say "that's the size of mortise chisel I use for furniture mortises". You can't possibly misread that, though you can certainly pretend to.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a few questions about the video, the chisels, etc.

Paul Sellers made the comment that the BE chisel entered the wood more easily. Why would that be? The BE has a primary bevel of 25-35 degrees (yes, no?) on a shorter bevel. The OBM chisel I use (vintage or RI) has a long 20 degree primary bevel and a 35 degree microbevel. Both chisels used here were 3/8" wide. The BE chisel looked well used and, as a result, a lot shorter than new. This would have added to the stiffness and usability - yes?

The mallet he used looked pretty lightweight, and it does not sound like he thumped it hard. He seemed to get decent penetration nevertheless. Just how hard was that wood? It looked like Oak ... yes? How much difference would you expect in performance of the chisels with a hard wood? I have used European Oak quite a bit (very similar properties to White Oak), and I can tell you that there is a world of difference between them and our local hardwoods. I did complete some shallow mortices yesterday in Jarrah, and began with a 1/4" BE chisel (a Blue Spruce). I quickly changed to a OBM chisel (RI). The BE did not penetrate as deeply, and suffered vibration. The OBM chisel felt solid. Obviously, in these circumstances, the OBM chisel is the preferred tool.

Please do not construe these queries as criticism one way or the other. I think that Paul Sellers has a lot to offer. That he is on a commercial pilgrimage as much as a spiritual one is also not in question, and does not interest me. I simply wish to evaluate what he does and the circumstances in which his advice may best be applied.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Gaz Palmer]

I have a few questions about the video, the chisels, etc.

Paul Sellers made the comment that the BE chisel entered the wood more easily. Why would that be? The BE has a primary bevel of 25-35 degrees (yes, no?) on a shorter bevel. The OBM chisel I use (vintage or RI) has a long 20 degree primary bevel and a 35 degree microbevel. Both chisels used here were 3/8" wide. The BE chisel looked well used and, as a result, a lot shorter than new. This would have added to the stiffness and usability - yes?

The mallet he used looked pretty lightweight, and it does not sound like he thumped it hard. He seemed to get decent penetration nevertheless. Just how hard was that wood? It looked like Oak ... yes? How much difference would you expect in performance of the chisels with a hard wood? I have used European Oak quite a bit (very similar properties to White Oak), and I can tell you that there is a world of difference between them and our local hardwoods. I did complete some shallow mortices yesterday in Jarrah, and began with a 1/4" BE chisel (a Blue Spruce). I quickly changed to a OBM chisel (RI). The BE did not penetrate as deeply, and suffered vibration. The OBM chisel felt solid. Obviously, in these circumstances, the OBM chisel is the preferred tool.

Please do not construe these queries as criticism one way or the other. I think that Paul Sellers has a lot to offer. That he is on a commercial pilgrimage as much as a spiritual one is also not in question, and does not interest me. I simply wish to evaluate what he does and the circumstances in which his advice may best be applied.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Thor/Thorex mallets (With steel head and threaded nylon faces) are deceptively heavy for their seemingly diminutive size and a mallet with a 1.3/4" head dia weighs in @ 1lb 14oz. It's the example I have close to hand and use on an everyday basis, but they're available in various diameters and weights. This heft to size ratio provides very positive feedback when used as a means of driving chisels and isn't too unlike that enjoyed when using Japanese Gennu and similarly allows a shorter swing and less effort per chisel strike. This translates very well if you're doing a lot of chopping out and tends to be far less fatiguing than if having to drive a wooden mallet harder than need be, plus reduced head size tends to improve the rate of strikes involving the mallet's sweet-spot.

Not forgetting you tend to adjust the secondary (Micro) bevel to suit the work in hand, a bevel edged chisel drives into a mortise cut just as readily as a purpose-made mortise chisel. The only downside I've experienced is the fact their blades are finer than that of a mortise chisel and they tend to demand more respect during use, as there is a risk of bending a blade.

The reasoning behind the comparisons made between bevel edged and mortise chisels was simply to enthuse the fact that newcomers with very basic tool kits don't need mortise chisels among their arsenal in order to chop mortise.

[Gaz Palmer]

Charles, once again you make accusations that are intentional twisting. I said clearly multiple times that I think it's a poor comparison because the mortise chisel used is unreasonably large, and I have yet to see someone stand up and say "that's the size of mortise chisel I use for furniture mortises". You can't possibly misread that, though you can certainly pretend to.

Much depends upon the scale of furniture being constructed, but 3/8" is certainly a simpler size to film for the sake of providing an example of alternative working practices, rather than opt for a 1/8" or 1/4" chisel size. One thing to try and remember is the fact that not all mortising is carried out on furniture, as doors, windows and other frame based structures can and do involve mortising.

[Adam Cruea]

Thor/Thorex mallets (With steel head and threaded nylon faces) are deceptively heavy for their seemingly diminutive size and a mallet with a 1.3/4" head dia weighs in @ 1lb 14oz. It's the example I have close to hand and use on an everyday basis, but they're available in various diameters and weights. This heft to size ratio provides very positive feedback when used as a means of driving chisels and isn't too unlike that enjoyed when using Japanese Gennu and similarly allows a shorter swing and less effort per chisel strike. This translates very well if you're doing a lot of chopping out and tends to be far less fatiguing than if having to drive a wooden mallet harder than need be, plus reduced head size tends to improve the rate of strikes involving the mallet's sweet-spot.

Not forgetting you tend to adjust the secondary (Micro) bevel to suit the work in hand, a bevel edged chisel drives into a mortise cut just as readily as a purpose-made mortise chisel. The only downside I've experienced is the fact their blades are finer than that of a mortise chisel and they tend to demand more respect during use, as there is a risk of bending a blade.

The reasoning behind the comparisons made between bevel edged and mortise chisels was simply to enthuse the fact that newcomers with very basic tool kits don't need mortise chisels among their arsenal in order to chop mortise.

I'm glad someone pointed this out.

I've used my BE Sweethearts in comparison to my RI pigsticker on hickory. . .I've seen the blade on the Sweetheart start flexing when trying to either leverage waste out or just trying to break it loose to pull it back out. The bevel ends up looking like I tried to chisel marble with it, too.

That being said, when I made my mallet, I used a 1/4" BE Sweetheart and it went through relatively easily.

@Derek> I agree. . .it appeared to be Oak. After working with hickory for my bench, to me, Oak feels about as hard as cold butter. However, I would love to see someone try to use BE with a seriously hard wood, such as jatoba, hickory, or ipe. I've a feeling it would end with either a bent up chisel or at least one that looked like someone pounded it into a cinder block due to the softer steel. :D

[David Weaver]

Much depends upon the scale of furniture being constructed, but 3/8" is certainly a simpler size to film for the sake of providing an example of alternative working practices, rather than opt for a 1/8" or 1/4" chisel size. One thing to try and remember is the fact that not all mortising is carried out on furniture, as doors, windows and other frame based structures can and do involve mortising.

Actually, what I meant was why choose a chisel with a cross section so large, and the chisel so long. It's unwieldy in a mortise of that size.

[Charlie Stanford]

Actually, what I meant was why choose a chisel with a cross section so large, and the chisel so long. It's unwieldy in a mortise of that size.

The only problem with your statement is that Sellers cut a perfectly fine mortise with the 'too large' chisel. ;)

[Charlie Stanford]

It's strange that at one time we all seemed to envy the guys who made a living at woodworking whether it be teaching, building on commission, or a combination of both.

Now it seems to be a point of contention. And derision. What happened?

There aren't very many well-known professionals on this side of the pond that don't teach at least some during the year, if they don't have their own schools.

[Charlie Stanford]

Assuming the bevels are ground at the same angle and the steel of the same composition the edge of a B/E chisel wouldn't degrade any faster than the edge of a mortise chisel.

[Charlie Stanford]

It enters the wood more easily simply because it is less thick in section.

[Mel Fulks]

Charlie,I see your point.But I don't think that is what is happening with this mortise technique thing .This is more like some chefs being unimpressed with a Ron Popiel infomercial.

[David Weaver]

It enters the wood more easily simply because it is less thick in section.

Exactly why I asked for the need to use the largest possible chisel, other than to get the results you want. Could be unintentional, who knows.

I'll mark my calendar to come back and put a poll up for this in a month (unless someone does it in the interim). See how many people have tried. Other than that, it's pretty much a completely dead thread at missing only the boilerplate conspiracy charge against current toolmakers to be cut and paste from old the old knots template.

[Jim Koepke]

Buy a piece of plexiglass and please show us all how it's supposed to be done.

Did someone say there is only one way making a mortise is supposed to be done?

Some folks like to drill and pare, hurrah for them.

Some like a light handed approach with a bench chisel, whoopee!

Some like to whack away with a big mallet and a mortise chisel, KABAM!

And surely, there are a dozen other ways that work wonders for many others, whew.

What ever works best for the person doing the job is the "right way."

Just because someone does it differently than me isn't a reason to belittle them.

Having done mortises by drilling first and cleaning up or with bevel edged, square edged and mortise chisels it has become my preference to use a mortise chisel when one of the desired size is available. Whack, whack, whack, lever, whack, whack, whack, lever and it all gets done quick and neat.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Actually, what I meant was why choose a chisel with a cross section so large, and the chisel so long. It's unwieldy in a mortise of that size.

Possibly because it was what was at hand for the demonstration.

As one who has done similar demonstrations, it often helps to bring home a point that a task can be done when one doesn't have the optimal tool for the job. It sometimes helps to make the point of the demonstration stick with the viewers of the demonstration.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Yep .I know I will never forget seeing that chicken plucked with the Veguhmatic.

[Charlie Stanford]

Exactly why I asked for the need to use the largest possible chisel, other than to get the results you want. Could be unintentional, who knows.

I'll mark my calendar to come back and put a poll up for this in a month (unless someone does it in the interim). See how many people have tried. Other than that, it's pretty much a completely dead thread at missing only the boilerplate conspiracy charge against current toolmakers to be cut and paste from old the old knots template.

Your problem seems to be that you need the video validated by some poll or by some preponderance of woodworkers making a wholesale change and if people don't you're biliousness is justified. Of course, that's ridiculous. The video was clearly offered on a 'for what it's worth' basis. Try if you care. Don't if you don't. The problem is that two mortises were nicely cut with two entirely different chisels. An expert craftsman's skills were on display. I wouldn't be shocked to know that a lot of people can't replicate the results. I certainly cannot. But it doesn't change a thing. The man was simply demonstrating two chisels but more than that his expertise - whether you like admitting it or not. "I can cut one with this.... watch me cut one with that..."

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie,I see your point.But I don't think that is what is happening with this mortise technique thing .This is more like some chefs being unimpressed with a Ron Popiel infomercial.

If we had people responding that had the same level of skill and a similar resume as Sellers I would tend to agree. But, I don't think that's the case.

Sometimes a cut vegetable is just a cut vegetable.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

My impression or gut feeling having chopped mortises with both bench chisel and stouter mortise-style chisels (the Narex mortise chisels, which have a blade fairly similar in style to an English "pigsticker" chisel) is that with at lower forces, (either a less force from my arm, or a lighter mallet) a single whack makes the bench chisel penetrate somewhat further. I would presume that this is because there is less metal to force into the wood, so you get more cutting and less pushing and displacing.

Once you've got a bit of an opening for the waste chips to move themselves into, rather than just trying to wedge the blade into solid wood, this difference seems to disappear, which would make sense. Sometimes it almost seems like the longer bevel of the mortise-style chisel almost allows it to continue to take a bigger bite if there's open space for the waste to move to, as the bevel continues to push the waste further away with each stroke.

With a heavier force behind the chisel, though, (either a stronger stroke or heavier mallet - I prefer to use a heavier mallet and more of a dropping motion than trying to increase the force of my swing, though) the mortise chisel seems to sink deeper with each stroke than my bench chisels. It feels or seems like this might be because the chisel is stouter. My impression would be that while I might not bend a bench chisel that wasn't particularly delicate, there is some flex in it, and that flex would be absorbing some of the force of the mallet, rather than presenting it to the wood. I feel like I get to a point with a bench chisel, where a harder hit doesn't make it sink any more, and it seems to me that I hit the maximum penetration earlier than I do with my mortise-style chisels.

I don't know if any of this is actually happening, or how to test it, it's just my my impression based on my (albeit limited) experience. No idea if any of this equates to a faster mortise.

Where I like my mortise-style chisels over my bench chisels is that they are easier for me to register to the work - I can feel plumb and square better with them. That's just a personal thing, though. The sharper arrises between the blade back and sides also allow for a bit of a scraping action which tends to result in very clean walls for me.

One thing I really like about Seller's video, that it demonstrates well, and that took me a while to figure out when I first mortised by hand (and I wish I had heard about somewhere else) is to take into consideration how the bevel of the chisel will move the chisel through the wood, and how you can work with that by angling the chisel out of plumb. Would have saved me some pain on my first attempts at mortises had I thought about it!

[Mel Fulks]

I thought it a good analogy because there are things that can be a help to doing something that are at the same time not something that one with a high skill level would find effective. The criticism comes from the belief that where instruction is being sold the aim should be to develop skill not just find a way to get it done .Trade work masters have never been happy to see that their apprentices deviate from instruction. And once the apprentices learn they seldom think the way they thought up on their first day was any good.

[Charlie Stanford]

I thought it a good analogy because there are things that can be a help to doing something that are at the same time not something that one with a high skill level would find effective. The criticism comes from the belief that where instruction is being sold the aim should be to develop skill not just find a way to get it done .Trade work masters have never been happy to see that their apprentices deviate from instruction. And once the apprentices learn they seldom think the way they thought up on their first day was any good.

I think that an extremely high level of skill, practice, and expertise were on display in the video. That explains the outstanding results. Sellers has a woodworking school where he sells craft instruction. Who would want to buy such instruction from somebody with no skill?

[Carl Beckett]

There was a video postd here a while back with Roy showing a mortise chop against a piece of glass, so you could see what was happening at the pointy end of the tool

I found it very valuable to helping me understand some of what was going on.

[Mel Fulks]

Good point .Time will tell if his method gets traction, choice is good.