Mid priced japanese saws?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've been tending towards western-saws, but I started with the cheap, impulse-hardened Japanese "inspired" hardware store pull saws. A few years ago I replaced my "Sharksaws" which I was never thrilled with but kept for around for cutting "questionable" materials and plywood and such, with a Vaughan "Bear Saw" (model BS250D). It actually seems like a decent saw for the 20 bucks or so I spent (tops) at Lowes. Made in Japan, somewhat dozuki-style with the rip tooth on one side graduated from 8 to 12 PPI and the crosscut side 19 ppi.

I've actually ended up using it much more often than I thought I would - I don't think I'm going to be switching solely to eastern saws at any near point in the future, but sometimes it works best for what I want to do.

I' m posting because I haven't always been treating that saw the nicest (being a 20 dollar saw) and I've been thinking about replacing it or the blade. It's lost a few teeth on the rip side from hitting vises or clamps or something, and somehow mysteriously pulls to the left when rip cutting.

So not knowing anything really about Japanese-style saws, I'm wondering what a nice path would be for upgrade. Maybe this saw from the hardware store is fine - I don't really know what I'm missing compared to the high-end. I know I don't have the money to afford spending hundreds on a handmade saw. I wouldn't mind something that could be sharpened, but I'd be worried about destroying it trying to sharpen the more complex geometry of a Japanese saw tooth.

So I'm thinking something kind of mid-priced, I guess? Something that would give me more of an idea of whether I wanted to pursue higher-end japanese saws. I actually think for what I want for this type of saw, the tooth count and length (250mm) is kind of ideal.

I've also been thinking I'd like to mess around with an Azebiki and something like a small Dozuki for dovetails when a board is a little long and working horizontal is easier. I was thinking of trying the saws from Lee Valleys "detail saws" (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=58686&cat=1,42884) line. Thoughts as to those two types of saws, again, on a low or mid priced budget, is also handy. Or just comments, or where I should be looking for info in general.

[David Weaver]

For the next step up, stick with gyochuko and z saws. They'll be a good bit stiffer than those saws at home depot, but will be still durable and forgiving.

If you want to go up from that later, you can spend more money, but nobody needs a better saw than gyochuko and Z. The harder saws that are more fragile usually are scraped hollow, and that does make them feel lighter in the cut, but they won't really work faster than gyochuko and Z saws.

[Stuart Tierney]

If you want to go up from that later, you can spend more money, but nobody needs a better saw than gyochuko and Z. The harder saws that are more fragile usually are scraped hollow, and that does make them feel lighter in the cut, but they won't really work faster than gyochuko and Z saws.

Actually, the better saws are faster than the Gyokucho and Z saws. Not by that much, but it is noticeable and measurable.

Yeah, I checked with a stop watch and by counting saw strokes. IIRC, a standard Gyokucho 240mm took @50-60 strokes to cut through 3" x 2" beech, fine pitch Gyokucho @70. Normal Ginnokiba 240mm took @40-50 strokes and the fine pitch took @50-60. Kerf was thinnner and the surface was also smoother from the Ginnokiba. Beyond that, the difference is virtually non-existent and barely perceptible.

But as a first proper Japanese saw, Z Saw or Gyokucho. Tough, fast, cheap and good and they cut straight, every time.

(And if they're not cheap, keep looking. Z Saw should be $20-35, Gyokucho from $25-50 depending on type.)

Stu.

[Ethan Liou]

I am no expert, just a beginner. I am very happy with the Japanese saws that I have. And here's my two cents.


For your consideration, replace blades often can be found for a Ryoba saw (one side crosscutting, one side ripping). Ryoba is what I consider a medium tool (on a coarse, medium, fine scale). Dozuki, on the other hand, is a fine tool. (A Dozuki is a back saw with ripping or crosscutting configuration). So the decision depends on the type of work you are going to do with it.


Traditional Japanese woodworkers don't usually have a workbench. They sit on the floor with a thick table top in front of them as a bench, and secure the work piece with a planing stop or one of his leg, or hand. You can, of course, use Japanese saws on a workbench, but might need to adjust how you hold the saw, and how the workpiece is hold on the bench.


That's pretty much everything I know about Japanese saws. Hope it helps.


Ethan


PS.
Here's a video
http://youtu.be/85GrCHbdaJ4
At arount 3:40, you can see how a craftsman use his Ryoba.

[Rick Fisher]

For mid priced saw, Goykucho is great.. Figure on $40.00 - $50.00 for a Dozuki ..

They are much better than the Irwin Shark saws and not crazy expensive ..

[Jack Curtis]

For a dozuki, I'd say the LV rip-tooth dozuki ($100) or the Professional Dozuki ($70) are the best deals. Also, take a look at the Hida site, they seem to have a lot of mid priced items.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm a fan of the dozuki, with a heavier blade than most of the super thin saws.

I can cut a panel through-and-through without a stiff steel backing, and the heft of the blade means fewer teeth get knocked out.
I use this when a regular (Western style) panel saw can't clear some obstacle.

My most commonly used Japanese saw is a small flush cutting saw (http://www.woodcraft.com/PRODUCT/2003094/2715/SHINWA-421S095-JAPANESE-KUGIHIKI-FLUSH-CUTTING-HAND-SAW-.ASPX?refcode=10INGOPB&gclid=COLwmfHttLICFUhN4Aod3G0AzA), which is supple and retains it's teeth after four years.
Perhaps because it is finer, I've been more careful but it's versatile. I think that it can be steered, much like a bowsaw to follow curved layout lines.

[David Weaver]

(And if they're not cheap, keep looking. Z Saw should be $20-35, Gyokucho from $25-50 depending on type.)

Stu.

Ditto that. There are more places to get them cheap than there are places to get them expensive, but the expensive places probably show up first in google.

I can't remember which harder saws that I have, I only have two taper ground saws, but one of them has red rattan and a yellow label (edit: I just looked it up, it's the 240 mm ginnokiba). It does leave a finer surface if you're using the same amount of pressure with the saws. But I don't, I use the Zs and gyochukos harder and rougher, and hence faster. They will tolerate it, and if they come out of the cut and bump into something, it won't ping teeth off. You can pretty much hang off of them as a user if you want to get work done fast. I pinged a few teeth off of the ginnokiba doing the same thing.

The only thing I don't like about some of the disposable saws is the amount of tooth set, but it is minutely more than I'd like and the problem is solved in less than a minute with a medium diamond stone.

[Jack Curtis]

Well, you heard it here first, if you insist on muscling your saws about (which, btw, is entirely the wrong way to saw with anything), buy cheap.

[Jon Toebbe]

I'll join the chorus recommending Z-Saws. I bought a variety of them from Tashiro Hardware a few years ago as a "starter" nest of saws. I promised myself that when I used them up and really knew what I wanted/needed in saws I'd upgrade to something "nice." My 270mm kataba is finally starting to show signs of dulling and what I need is a fresh 270mm blade. This isn't to say I don't covet the beautiful Eastern and Western saws being made today, but Dave said it best:


you can spend more money, but nobody needs a better saw than gyochuko and Z.

I've come to prefer kataba (unbacked) saws over dozuki and ryoba. They're thin enough for precise joinery cuts, have no built-in limit to the depth of cut, and don't slave the rip and crosscut teeth to one another like ryoba. I do a lot more cross-cutting by hand than ripping, but your mileage may vary.

[David Weaver]

gyochuko and Z saws usually have blades that are cheaper than shipping a saw back and forth to be resharpened, too, especially if you consider the impulse hardened teeth last several times longer than normally hardened saw steel.

The nice thing about a kataba on a crosscut is that the rip teeth aren't on the other side with a lot of set, scratching up a long crosscut.

[Bob Strawn]

... where I should be looking for info in general.

The Razorsaw 650 is as good a saw as I am worthy to use. Probably better. I have tested it against a wide range of wonderful Japanese saws. It is hard to beat.

Bob

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Thanks for the input, guys. I ended up picking up a Gyokucho 651, and a 303 (I believe? Whatever LV sells as their "plywood" saw), the second specifically for the little bit of work I do in sheet goods. Very pleased with them for the little bit of a workout I've been able to run them through, particularly for the price.

The hardware store Vaughan "Bear Saw" was a marked improvement over the home center "Shark Saw", and the Gyokucho is an even more marked step up from the "Bear Saw". I think I may eventually be looking for a different tooth count, but I'm still getting the hang of this one before I experiment in that direction. I'm not going to be giving up my western-style saws any time soon, but I really like having both options. Different cuts are easier for me with different approaches, and having both options is terrific.

The one more hole I'm thinking I'd like to fill with japanese saws is something for dovetails; my last experience with cutting dovetails for long carcase stock has me thinking I'd like to work horizontal, cutting from below with a pull saw next time I tackle that.

For the stock size/thickness I'm thinking of, (thicker as I'm talking specifically carcase pieces, since I'm talking long) when using western saws, I tend to grab my 12ppi, 12" gramercy rip saw. Any suggestions for (again, mid-priced) Japanese-style saws for this task? I'm not entirely convinced that the ryoba I have now isn't totally fine for this task, but I'm also not entirely convinced that any excuse to buy an affordable tool isn't a good one, either . . . Are there any machine-made dozukis with rip teeth? Brief experiments with the ryoba making similar cuts in scrap I have make it seem like it's probably well suited for the task, but for those cuts, I think I might prefer something closer to the finer pitched teeth near the handle of the 651.

[Jack Curtis]

Are there any machine-made dozukis with rip teeth?

Sure, the LV Pro Rip Dozuki, $99 or so. Ryoba are not real great for dovetails, which benefit greatly from the extra structure of a dozuki.

[Rick Fisher]

Goykucho makes a really nice Rip Dozuki ..

Here is a picture of both the crosscut and the rip saw ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/P1020549.jpg


I put markings on them to speed up selection.. the Rip is a bit smaller but when I am working, its easier to just look at the mark ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/P1020551.jpg


Both of these saws are very nice to use .. 100% disposable .. They have really fine teeth, but cut very fast. I like them because Dozuki saws are sensitive .. Bend one and they are pretty much junk .. Bend one of these and its not as dramatic as bending a $300 Mitsukawa saw..

The pair of saws is about $100.00 .. Stu sells them as does Hida Tools..

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

FWIW, It was actually the #410 I got for sheet goods, not the #303. Again, that's what Lee Valley sells as their "plywood saw". It actually looks like some of LVs other saws are Gyokucho. That's the only thing that bugs me about Lee Valley sometimes, is it's not always clear who makes some of their products. The oilcans they started carrying a while back, I didn't realize the manufacturer until I zoomed in on one of their pictures . . .

Rick - is the rip saw there the #372 saw? (I see that one for sale at Toolsfromjapan and Japanwoodworker) Anyone have an idea how that compares to the #303 that Hida sells as a "rip dozuki"? Japan Woodworker seems to sell the 303 model number as a "rip/crosscut" saw.

Anyone have experience with the "Ikeda" tooth the Lee Valley "professional dozuki" says it has?

I found a .pdf file a while back with info on the various Gyokucho saws; I'll have to see if I can dig it up again, but I think it was missing some of the current saws I see listed at various sellers. I'll have to see if I can find it again . . .

[David Weaver]

Which lee valley part # are you talking about? I have the $99 rip dozuki mentioned earlier, it's a very fast and capable saw.

I think for all practical purposes, though, the gyochuko rip dozuki (which isn't really quite a rip saw), is half as much money and it's basically one pull slower on dovetails. If the rip dozuki takes 4 swift pulls to cut a tail, the gyochuko saw takes 5.

I haven't used the LV saw in a while, but I believe that it's all one unit, no replacement anything. I don't know how hard the teeth are, but I suppose anything can be jointed with a diamond hone and touched up with a diamond file.

[Jack Curtis]

Which lee valley part # are you talking about? I have the $99 rip dozuki mentioned earlier, it's a very fast and capable saw.

I think for all practical purposes, though, the gyochuko rip dozuki (which isn't really quite a rip saw), is half as much money and it's basically one pull slower on dovetails. If the rip dozuki takes 4 swift pulls to cut a tail, the gyochuko saw takes 5.

I haven't used the LV saw in a while, but I believe that it's all one unit, no replacement anything. I don't know how hard the teeth are, but I suppose anything can be jointed with a diamond hone and touched up with a diamond file.

I was talking about the pro rip dozuki, 60T04.04, which has a separate handle and blade. It's a great saw. Friends also have the Pro Dozuki, 60T03.15, which has lasted for years, also a great saw, also separate handle and blade. These are replaceable blade only, but they're so capable and long lasting, I have yet to replace a single one. I cut 3/4" dovetails in 3 cuts, so do my friends.

I also use the Japanese Plywood Saw, 60T03.25, and have used it on and off for some years. A champ, works much better than my crummy electric circular saw.

[David Weaver]

60T04.04 is the one I have also. I guess I never looked to see if the blade could be replaced. I will probably resharpen it if I ever have to, before I'd buy another blade for $80.

It is a nice saw, and it is fast. With a little bit of pressure the cut (like on dovetails on thicker stuff), it's extremely fast.