Equipment requirements/getting started - SketchUp

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. I would like to start using SketchUp or a similar woodworking design package. Cabinetry and other wood based products. For use from concept through layout to parts drawings, cutting lists and renderings etc as reasonably feasible. With the option to output files for CNC on occasion.

Is there a good source of information anywhere on how to plan and approach this sort of undertaking? Coming from more or less ground zero so far as familiarity with these methods is concerned.

Is it a case of buying a single SketchUp package/suite of software, or is it necessary to add modules (including stuff from other suppliers) as needed? Cost?

I'm computer literate, but not a techie. My MacBook 2.1 is dated, and runs an old version of OSX which can't be updated and a small screen, so it's time to buy (yet) again. An IMac all in one looks like a nice option judging by the one my daughter has. Not to mention the Apple monitors tend to be excellent - and having something that's tiring to use isn't all that attractive.

Are there possibly issues with restricted availability of SketchUp and related other software and add ons for use on a Mac?

I could go back to a PC and it'd be quite a lot cheaper, but my memories of the Windows and its highly variable and glitchy performance and virus issues are not great. (the solidity of OSX was a revelation) Has this changed with the more recent versions of Windows?

Other stuff to bear in mind based on your experience?

ian

[Myk Rian]

Sketchup doesn't take a hefty machine to run, and is free.
Search Google for sketchup tutorials. Here are a couple good ones.
http://sketchupforwoodworkers.com/
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/cldetails?mid=36e1fa0d054a15eecc725c514c21d975&ct=hpr2&start=0
Enjoy, and plan to put some time into learning it. It isn't CAD, but there is a curve.

[Sam Murdoch]

I use SU on a Mac with a OS X 10.6.8 with 21" diagonal viewable screen with no issues whatsoever. The key is the scroll mouse and for that we use a Logitech M505. Can't use SU without a scroll mouse. Lots of available plug ins available on line to enhance the usefulness of SU for woodworking. I have to say though that I don't use the program to the best advantage - mostly just a real easy rendering program. Can't offer any advice as to output to CNC. I am still using the free version Sketch Up 8. Hook up with the folks at SketchUcation - http://sketchucation.com/ for every level of advice you might ever need.

Here is another look for relevant reference books - http://www.tauntonstore.com/google-sketchup-guide-for-woodworkers-traditional-cabinets-killen-ebook-077864.html?source=W1536EMN&utm_source=email&utm_medium=emarketing&utm_term=none&utm_content=FW_SketchUp_bottomnav&utm_campaign=FW_book

[ian maybury]

Ta guys. Just what i needed to get me started. So much comes up when you Google this stuff that it's not always clear where to start....

ian

[Jamie Buxton]

I use Sketchup a lot. It is a very valuable tool. Everything I build is first drawn in SU. I use SU only in the initial phase of design -- drawing pictures of what the final product will look like. However, once I get the overall design nailed down, I stop using SU. I redraw the project in a traditional 2D drawing program. There's where I make the usual 2D shop drawings -- joinery details, dimensioned individual parts, plywood layout drawings, and such. I find that SU doesn't do as good a job of making dimensioned drawings. SU does have a dimension tool, but it is balky. For instance, I can't tell it to draw the horizontal distance between two points instead of the vertical distance between those points. It may pick one or the other, or instead give me the diagonal distance. It also can't easily do things like flip-and-copy across a centerline, which is a very useful operation. I'd also be surprised if it gracefully outputs to CNC, not only getting the file format right, but also getting everything across. That's tricky, even for traditional 2D drawing programs.

[ian maybury]

Sounds Jamie like it's more valuable as a rendering than a CAD tool as such. I had simply presumed that it covered all the bases, so thanks for that. It's a pity, in that it sounds like it's necessary to enter the data a second time, and to run with a second software package.

I'm an engineer, and spent some years on a board back in the early 80s so I draw well, but unfortunately was no longer hands on by the advent of CAD. The result is that i'm still more comfortable on a board. Drawing by hand is typically pretty time effective for sorting out layouts and concepts, but becomes rather more laborious and prone to error when it comes to extracting the data for part drawings.

I wonder if there is a reasonably priced CAD package that it's possible to add a woodworking/rendering capability to, or another integrated route? I have friends in engineering that use 3D CAD with all sorts of fancy rendering, CAM and other capability (Solid Works i think), but it's very very very expensive, and has a long learning curve (at my age i forget stuff almost as fast as i learn it unless i use it all the time)....

ian

[Bob Lang]

I have both AutoCAD and SketchUp and prefer SketchUp by far. When you learn how to use it, it is far faster and just as accurate as AutoCAD. It does cover all the bases, but you need to learn to speak it's language and operate in three dimensions. There is absolutely no reason to make a SketchUp model and then repeat all the work of making two-dimensional drawings. If you have a good model, and know how to use the program, you can extract all the two-dimensional information you want without ever re-drawing anything. No offense to Jamie, but the balkiness he describes with the dimension tool can be overcome if he adjusts his point of view while dimensioning. Because SketchUp operates in 3D, there is a choice of how to orient the dimensions-how you move the mouse and where you click control the placement of dimensions. It is also very easy to make a mirror image copy, if you learn the commands.

As far as output goes, the Pro version of SketchUp can export DXF files, which are standard vector files that are used to generate the code for CNC. One of the great things about SketchUp is you can learn how to use the software with the free version, and when you need the added features of Pro step up. The Pro version is also a bargain at $500, compared to the thousands of dollars you'll spend for other CAD software.

SketchUp isn't terribly demanding, but you'll be happier with a big screen and plenty of RAM, along with a decent video card. I use SketchUp on both a Mac and a PC and there isn't a significant difference, although printing is a bit easier (in the free version) from a PC. With either platform, the Pro version comes with an additional program called LayOut for making nice 2D prints.

SketchUp is similar to playing the guitar. Almost anyone can watch a few videos, learn a couple chords and play a song. SketchUp has enormous capabilities, but you don't pick those up in a Saturday morning on YouTube. If you take the time to learn the fine points, you will find it is an extremely powerful package that covers all the design, engineering, problem solving and project management needs you may have.

Happy to discuss SketchUp with you at length and point you toward good resources.

Bob Lang

[ian maybury]

Thank you for an alternative view Bob, and thanks for yours too Jamie - good to know what to watch out for when dimensioning.

To explore the line of thought a little further Bob. I'm basically at ground zero on Sketch Up, so the most fundamental need right now is probably just to get started down the right road in terms of getting up to speed with Sketch Up. As in to make some good choices - obtain some input on sources of good information (eg some sense of a sensible sequence and route into learning skills, a good reference book or two to buy, sources of tutorials, user comment etc), stuff to watch out for and so on.

I have a small commercial project (a TV stand in walnut with drawers, shelves etc) on a fairly relaxed schedule which may not be a bad place to start.

Once set up it's probably a case as in most of these things of getting on with it....

It seems I've got lucky on the computer front since my original post, my daughter is a graphic designer and is headed back to college for a year and switching to a laptop. So there's a nice and almost new 3gHz 24in IMac coming my way at not too much money.

The output to CNC thing is not a top priority, but a friend runs a CNC router set up and he helps out from time to time by profiling awkward stuff. The ability to e-mail a file would be handy, but is hardly a show stopper.

ian

[Rick Alexander]

Hey Look - It's Bob Lang.

I took a two day course with Bob a year and a half ago at a local Woodcraft store in GA. (He is a master by the way). Luckily for me I went on vacation for a couple of weeks right after taking the course and the first week my wife was in a business conference. That first week I spent about 30 hours on a specific project (kitchen cabinets) and was able to really burn the concepts into my stubburn brain so I don't forget it now. I absolutely love the program and man is it powerful. I can finally use a cad program that is much faster than my old t square and drawing board and it is just about as much fun building in Sketchup as it is in the shop with wood (Sketchup wood is much cheaper). One of the most important things I learned from Bob is to change the settings of the program to better suit drawing out woodworking projects. That was what I was having more trouble with trying to use the tutorials online as most of those are geared toward engineers rather than woodworkers. Also, as one of my friends learned the hard way - you better use it pretty often or you'll have a hard time remembering what you've learned pretty quickly making it very frustrating. Bob also sells a CD that I still refer back to when I can't remember how a tool works or forget a concept. It's indexed really well so you don't have to spend much time figuring out where to look. Great resource.

The course wasn't cheap but absolutely the best money I ever spent on training in any course. Thanks Bob for a great start.

And no I'm not associated with Woodcraft or Bob in any way - just a really happy customer.

[Michael W. Clark]

Ian,
I'm not familiar with Sketchup but use CAD 3D and our engineering group uses Inventor (another Autodesk product). My understanding is that AutoCad is going away in the near future and it will all be Inventor. Inventor is a very powerful 3D system and allows you to automatically generate 2Ds from the model or dump the model into an FEA for stress analysis. We use this extensively with our cyclone designs. We can also provide fabricators with a flat shape of rolled and coped pieces. This is electronic and can go straight to thier water-jet or plasma. Probably way overkill for woodworking.

Having said all that, I had trouble using Sketchup. Not trying to discourage at all, Sketchup sounds like a good program, just trying to say once you pick a software there will be a learning curve. Having spent some time on the board, you should have basics covered, its just a matter of getting the computer to do what you want. If you pick sketchup, I would stay with it and not try to convert later. With most Google products, they continue to innovate and improve to provide increased funtionality. If it were my money, I would probably start learning Sketchup, but I wouldn't put it in the same class as Inventor or Solid Works.

Mike

[Bob Lang]

I didn't really get the hang of SketchUp until I gave up my notions that it should behave like 2D drawing on a board, or like AutoCAD. It's a different animal, with it's own idiosyncrasies. Once you learn how to navigate and get control of objects it becomes very efficient. Getting there takes practice, and you have to practice the right things to get up to speed. I've spent a lot of time working on ways to get over the humps that most people struggle with, and my digital book and classes I teach are based on that. I don't want to promote myself here, but there is a lot of good information and resources on my blog. Google my name and SketchUp, or send me a PM to find it. Later this weekend, I'll be posting a schedule of classes I'll be teaching in Cincinnati.

Bob Lang

[ian maybury]

Ta Bob, it came up quite easily: http://readwatchdo.com/2011/08/woodworkers-guide-to-sketchup-video-preview/ Pity I'm the wrong side of the pond to attend your courses. I'll have a decent look tomorrow.

Your book may well cover it, but another topic that comes to mind is (presuming that some of the functionality on SketchUp is delivered via add on software modules/and/or upgrading to the professional/purchased version) what functionality is in/not in the free version/potentially of use but requires xyz available from wherever to deliver it...

Chances are you are right about SketchUp Michael, in that just playing with downloaded drawings shows that (for me anyway) it's not that intuitive. Which suggests that as Bob says it's probably a case of getting one's head around how it works - which may be some of the value of a course/some training.

The bottom line for me is fairly simple - i just can't afford the licence for a full blown 3D CAD package, so I'm hoping that some work on my part will head off any issues. Presuming the required functionality is in there then it becomes (barring major inconvenience or the like) mostly a matter of learning how to use it...

Thanks

ian

[Michael W. Clark]

I think you are right on track Ian. If I had a small business or just for use in a home shop, there is no way I would shell out the cash for a full blown CAD 3D package. There is probably a tutorial in Sketch-up that would help you get started. The best way to learn with any software, especially CAD packages is time at the keyboard. I don't use CAD much for shop stuff, but do on occasion. If I loose my CAD access, I'll probably check out Bob's website or one of his classes. I'm in the Cincinnati area as well.

Mike

[Greg R Bradley]

Sketchup is quite different than most CAD programs. There are some on-line tutorials that might be useful for learning the program. I ran a few including a free one online designed for woodworking.

Then, my brother had suggested that Dave Richards had given him some help learning how to "think Sketchup" and it had help tremendously. Dave Richards had just released a downloadable tutorial with samples. I bought it here: http://www.tauntonstore.com/fine-woodworkings-google-sketchup-guide-for-woodworkers-basics-download-067125.html

Probably best $12.95 I've spent in awhile. I highly suggest it unless a couple days of your time isn't worth $12.95.

[ian maybury]

Thanks Michael, Greg. That's exactly the sort of feedback and information on resources that's needed to pain a picture of hat the options are. I suspect it's a lot like in most things to do with planning a product or a project - it's important to get the initial choices right. After that it gets down to the grunt work...

ian

[Alan Schaffter]

Ian, I started learning SketchUp a few years ago but didn't use it much until I started work on the I-BOX. I did all the initial design work with it. Chris Taylor at INCRA uses Solid Edge and offered me a copy of an old version to try out, but SU was just easier and quicker for me. I sent him jpeg renderings which he redrew in SE. Solid Edge does a much better job with engineering design and rendering, however.

I use the free version, but knew SketchUp Pro could generate a DXF CAD file. Unlike Solid Edge I don't think SU Pro works seamlessly to generate the CAM files (g code). Of course Solid edge is expensive and even after the high purchase price, annual license fees can exceed $1000.

I continue to use SketchUp for everything- woodworking projects and tool designs. I have even sent new product proposals to companies built around text and SU renderings, without ever sending a prototype.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Pity I'm the wrong side of the pond to attend your courses.

And that is one reason to be happy that you can buy his CDs..... :D

You can do it on demand: http://www.shopwoodworking.com/shop-class-on-demand-sketch-up-part-one-get-started-download

I purchased this: http://www.shopwoodworking.com/shop-class-on-demand-sketch-up-part-one-get-started-cd

I figure that I will work my way through it and then check out the advanced disk....

Oh, and I also sat in on his lectures at WIA last year.

Another possible package is Blender, but it is way more difficult than Sketchup.

[Dale Cruea]

I use SU for everything. I will completely draw out a project in SU. Joints and all.
I learned Su pretty quickly since it has very few drawing icons. The rest is learning how to manipulate the drawing.
SU has a vast help section once you fine it and learn how to use it.
Draw something once and copy, move, flip or rotate.
You just can't beat it for free.
It is not great or the best out there but it is free and it works well.

[John TenEyck]

I bought the SketchUp: Guide for Woodworkers by Tim Killen from Fine Woodworking. You can download an E-book from their website. I paid only around $12 for it a couple of years ago. Whatever tutorial you use, use one, because SketchUp as you download it is very generic. The first thing the FWW book did was show you how to set up SketchUp for woodworking. Then, in a matter of 4 or 5 hours, following the book I learned all the key concepts of drawing, dimensioning, etc., enough to start drawing useful furniture projects. Now I wouldn't draw any other way. I still can't believe SketchUp is free. I used to use 2D AutoCad LT at work. SketchUp is way easier. Once you start drawing in 3D, you'll never go back to 2D. You also can download objects, like a TV for when you want to build an entertainment center, from Google's SketchUp website and insert it directly into your drawing, and SketchUp will scale it automatically with your drawing. And you can download other peoples models as well, modify them. The reasons to use it go on and it.

John

[ian maybury]

Thanks again guys. I'll be a bit at a loss so far as making intelligent sounding replies is concerned until i get into it, but it's great to get the input....

ian

[Michael W. Clark]

Once you start drawing in 3D, you'll never go back to 2D. John

I STRONGLY second that statement. Regardless of what software you use, it becomes more of a "design" package instead of a "drafting" package. You'll learn to save parts and blocks that can be re-used or scaled for various drawings. Once you have the model built, then its just a matter of deciding which view you want to dimension. Of course, you could always take the computer to the shop and pick off the dimensions, but that's just not my thing. I like 2D dimensions drawings to build off of with an isometric in the corner as needed. I usually end up changing something anyway as I go, so I just mark-up the printed drawings.

Mike