Looking for a really decent 200 grit stone..

[Rick Fisher]

Hello ..

I am continuing to learn how to sharpen my chisels and plane blades.. I went to the show in Atlanta and got a hands on lesson at the Lee Valley booth.. After talking to the fella at the booth, I realized that I was not keeping my stones flat..

So I bought a diamond lapping stone and flattened all my stones.. The results where impressive .. Its almost embarrassing to admit that I had ignored this important step..

Anyway .. I decided to sharpen my chisels over again .. I had some nice Japanese paring chisels which i had never formed a bevel on .. Rather I had just put a micro bevel on them, but with dished stones, they where disappointing chisels..

So by hand .. I put a 25 degree bevel on 3 Japanese paring chisels plus a 27 degree micro bevel.. I then did 3 of my Blue spruce bench chisels .. 25 degree primary angle with a 30 degree micro .. ( I am trying this out on the bench chisels ) ..

My rough stone is a 400 grit Sigma ceramic stone and while it did the job .. registering a bevel with a 400 grit stone has been a real work out .. The paring chisels took almost an hour each ..

So I am thinking of getting a 200 grit .. something to speed up that part of the process..

I found that if a chisel took 50 minutes .. I spent 40 minutes on the 400 grit ..

I have a 400, 1000 and 13000 grit sigma ceramic .. plus a 4000/8000 Norton ..

I love the Sigma stones, which makes me really dislike the Norton stones .. I find the Norton really "muddy" .. they are gross.. but they work very well.. The sigma stones, especially the 1000 cuts fast, makes a cool sound, and doesn't look like it was smeared with iron filings ..

Wondering what would be a clean 200 grit ( approx ) stone you guys would recommend ?

I also have a 160# black stone which I hate .. it actually seems to go dull quickly..

[Chris Griggs]

For forming bevels I'd use a power grinder, though I think you'll want something that gives you a flat grind for the japanese chisels. The only stone I've used that is courser than 200 is the Sigma 120 (is that the 160 you're referring too). If you frequently abrade the surface of your 160 it will cut faster (DO NOT use you diamond plate for this)- some of those uber coarse stone also need to be constantly wetted/flushed to keep cutting quickly. I know that the 120 works best if you use it either under lightly running water or in a shallow pan of water.

(Actually, I have a Shapton 120, but I don't think of it as a less than 200 grit stone. It's more like a 400.)

Anyway, why not power grind the bevels?

[Casey Gooding]

+1 on the grinder. I use a 6" grinder for all of my bevels. However, as Chris stated, you wouldn't want to do this on the Japanese chisels as it would leave the edges too weak and you would chip them quickly. Sandpaper would be a quick option for those as it's readily available and cheap. Use either PSA or spray glue to glue it down to something flat, like a piece of MDF or granite.

[Archie England]

I've got the Sigma 120 and 400; and, the 120 is definitely faster--much faster than the 400! Do not--I repeat--do not put blade backs on it unless you're repairing one. I can re-bevel a blade on the 120--faster than on my Tormek but slower than on my 8" slow speed grinder. So, Chris' idea of the grinder is a good one--if you've got a lot of metal to remove or if you like the hollow grind result that so quickly sharpens afterwards.

[Steve Friedman]

I just asked this exact question on a different forum. Stu has mentioned the arrival of a new stone - Suehiro Cerax #320. I'll let Stu chime in, but he described it as softer and faster than the Sigma #400, but not as dish resistant. On the other hand it's 2" thick.

I am currently trying to decide whether the add the Cerax #320 or whether to try a dedicated Atoma #140 just for steel.

I am probably the least experiences Sigma Ceramic user (just got my set this summer), so take my comments with that in mind. Chris, Archie, and Orlando (and others) have much more experience. Nonetheless, here are my comments after flattening and sharpening around 30 blades over the last few weeks:

On the Sigma Ceramic #400, what you use to flatten this stone makes a huge difference. It is (reportedly) very rough on diamond flattening plates. I tried to use the Atoma #400 to flatten it, but found that my Sigma Ceramic #120 cut just as fast. When I got an Atoma #140 to flatten the Sigma #400, the world changed and the stone performance shot through the roof. There are others ways to make Sigma Ceramic #400 more aggressive. Leaving the "flattening slurry" on the stone seems to make the stone cut a little quicker. I also find that the stone cuts faster when it is almost dry. Too much water seems to make it too slick. Also, don't forget that you can add loose grit to the stone to make it more aggressive. Means it will dish faster, but that's the trade-off.

On the Sigma #120 (black) stone, did you read Stu's instructions? Here it is:

This “Care and Feeding” sheet should be accompanied by two small bottles of abrasive grit, and is intended to be used with the “Sigma Power #120 grit ceramic sharpening stone”. The loose grits are Silicon Carbide #36 & #120 mesh.

When new, this stone cuts very rapidly and does stay very flat, incredibly so when compared to similar very coarse water stones. However, this dish resistance comes at a price, that being that this particular stone is very susceptible to glazing.

What is ‘glazing’?

In simple terms, the surface of the stone becomes embedded with abraded steel and crushed abrasive. Due to this Sigma Power #120 stone being very coarse, it is also very porous because of the large spaces between the large particles that make up the abrasive. These large spaces tend to catch the steel/grit waste, and as they do not cut steel very well, become burnished somewhat. When the working abrasive in the stone is worn to the same level as these burnished areas, the stone no longer cuts and will take on a shiny appearance. At this point, the stone is glazed and is functionally useless.

This glazing problem is exacerbated because the stone is so hard and durable that the more common methods of restoring stones with abrasive papers, diamond plates and similar do not work to remove this glazing. If anything, they make the problem worse by adding more small particles of abrasive to be driven into every nook and cranny.

In order to restore this stones usefulness, this glazing needs to be broken up and removed.

At present, there is only one efficient and reliable method that we here at Tools from Japan know of, and part of that solution involves the contents of the small bottle…

Deglazing and restoration.

What you will need to do is source a suitable substrate to use with the loose grit. The ‘correct’ device is known as a ‘kanaban’ which is a piece of surface ground, flat mild steel. A piece of thick glass, a ceramic tile or similar flat, hard and durable surface will work. What is required that the substrate resists the grit becoming embedded in it, and forces the loose grit to roll around when pushed into the plate. Some embedding may be ok, but something soft such as aluminium, copper or plastic is not suitable.

Next, you will need to soak the stone for a time. While that is occurring, wet the surface of the flat substrate and wipe off any excess with a finger. We want the surface to be slightly damp so that the loose grit will ‘stick’ to it rather than fall off or float away. Then sprinkle a little loose grit on the damp substrate. Only enough to cover a 1.5-2cm circle (approximately 1-1.5g) is required, and it should be sprinkled over the entire surface of the substrate as best as you can manage. Moving the grit around with a finger to even it out is also fine, but there grit should be spread as evenly as possible. A little too little is better than too much because you can always add more grit if required.

Now take your soaked stone and rub it against the grit-encrusted substrate with sufficient pressure as to create a ‘crunchy’ feeling and rub the stone in any/all directions you wish. This may be the single most horrendous action you may have experienced with a waterstone, but trust me, it required.

Once the crunching ceases, inspect the stone. There should be a uniform ‘grey’ slurry over the surface of the stone and substrate, with possible smaller and larger pieces of loose grit. The stone should appear textured rather than smooth. If so, thoroughly rinse the stone in water and make sure that all glazing is now gone. If your substrate was flat, then the stone should also be flat, deglazed and ready to go again. If the stone is deglazed but not flat, then you might wish to flatten it by whatever method you use with more conventional waterstones.

You may find that the stone behaves a little differently, in that it cuts very quickly but may also tend to dish a little as well. This completely normal, and while it may dish a little, rest assured that the stone do so far slower than any other stone that I know of. This potential to go out of flat carries with it a side benefit, the stone is much less likely to clog and glaze.

Suggestions for best performance.

It should also be said that this stone does often require constant flushing of the surface when in use. Standing water on the stone’s working surface is ideal, and regular washing away of spend abrasive and steel is a necessity. I find that submerging the stone to within a few millimetres of the upper working surface tends to work best, but a regimen of 5 sharpening strokes followed by a splash also works very well. Experiment to find what works best for you, and if you do glaze the stone again, it is now easy to de-glaze it and restore it to working order.

The #120 loose grit will also ‘accelerate’ the speed of the stone, working as a grinding agent in addition to the abrasive present in the stone. Only a small amount of loose grit is required, as any loose particles will cause a ‘cascade effect’ where the loose particles will dislodge more abrasive particles from the stone itself. This abundance of abrasive will not only cause the cutting speed to be increased, but will also cause the stone to be used up much faster. This technique can also be used to break up any glazing as it occurs.

Happy Sharpening,

Steve

[Richard Jones]

I use a Beston 220 for very rough initial sharpening of customers' knives (depending upon the steel) and for initial tip repair of same. It's very thirsty, but is still flat after many months of use. The first time you use it you'll swear you're grinding your blade on a rough piece of sidewalk. Super aural feedback!!

Hard to beat for the price...............

[David Weaver]

If you're doing a primary bevel with a guide with all of your chisels, you'll be much farther ahead if you get a glass shelf from somewhere and put PSA stick down mirka gold 80 grit or some other similar aggressive al-ox PSA paper. Every coarse stone is a compromise because of the size of the grit. Either it will be hard and need constant surface agitation or it will be soft and dish.

Since you're doing some japanese chisels (which really should be done with a single bevel), you don't want to use a dry grinder on those, but in reality with appropriate use, they should never go below a medium stone and certainly not below 400 grit. If they do, it should only be once to set the bevel where you want it.

I use a full speed 6" grinder and sent my tormek off to someone else. I have a long run of sandpaper, but never use it and definitely despise coarse stones if your objective is to work wood with minimum time spent doing mass metal removal - which isn't working wood.

Stay away from any loose diamonds with japanese chisels.

[Steve Friedman]

If you're doing a primary bevel with a guide with all of your chisels, you'll be much farther ahead if you get a glass shelf from somewhere and put PSA stick down mirka gold 80 grit or some other similar aggressive al-ox PSA paper. Every coarse stone is a compromise because of the size of the grit. Either it will be hard and need constant surface agitation or it will be soft and dish.

David,

I really value your opinions on sharpening and wonder whether you have any problems with the transition of going from sandpaper to the stones? It could just be me, but I find that the sandpaper (on granite) and the stones do not agree on the definition of flat. It doesn't matter which one is flatter, it just matters that they are not the same. Therefore, even after getting my bevel "sandpaper flat" up to 400 grit, I end up spending a bunch of time on the #400 stone just getting the bevel to become "stone flat." Your level of sharpening knowledge dwarfs mine, but I think that lowering the grit of the "transition" stone (the first one you use after the sandpaper) makes the whole process much faster. That's why I want a stone below the #400 Sigmas I have now.

That said, I wouldn't try to do any serious re-shaping on the stones. I have now officially ruined enough blades to have sworn off power sharpening, but have no problem using sandpaper for serious steel removal.

Steve

[David Weaver]

The sandpaper has to be PSA stick down and it has to be stuck down uniformly. Generally, I will clean off the surface of my glass shelf piece with a razor blade and a dust broom before I will apply any paper. If a good quality paper with a fairly thick strong but pliable backing is used, like mirka gold, then you won't have dubbing and it will be dead flat. Transition to a stone is easy then.

If it's anything else (paper that's not perfectly laid down and adhered, a stretched out sanding belt, loose 8x11 sheets on glass, etc), it will not work, you'll have dubbing and a convex bevel even if minute - and experience the trouble as you mention.

But stuck down PSA paper backed rolls that are stuck down properly do a very good job and they're extremely aggressive. You can do a lot of bevel grinding on them also before they need to be ditched. Time spent sticking the paper down, etc, is no less than fiddling with the stone, and the surface is always flat. If you purchase a cabinet shelf like I did, the run can be long, too and you can get a really long stroke with a lot of pressure, and the only thing you have to worry about is not getting carried away and burning the edge of a blade from hand grinding.

Al-ox is the paper to use for something like this and dry. Silicon carbide crushes too easily and the water works against your speed wants. The more expensive super durable (and expensive) papers and belts offer a lot of extended life on a sander, but the hand pressure is too much for them and they're a waste of money in that application (learned that the hard way with blue zirconia, it doesn't last much longer than inexpensive alox).

Presume if you're woodworking an $18 roll could last you at least a year in the shop for all of your bevel work AND your back flattening. 80 grit mirka gold will outcut any stone I've seen when it's fresh (on backs), and even after it's tired for backs, it still works well on bevels.

[Don Jarvie]

Get a Diasharp diamond stone. I have the course grit, 600, I think and it makes quick work after the grinder.

[Steve Friedman]

The sandpaper has to be PSA stick down and it has to be stuck down uniformly. Generally, I will clean off the surface of my glass shelf piece with a razor blade and a dust broom before I will apply any paper. If a good quality paper with a fairly thick strong but pliable backing is used, like mirka gold, then you won't have dubbing and it will be dead flat. Transition to a stone is easy then.

If it's anything else (paper that's not perfectly laid down and adhered, a stretched out sanding belt, loose 8x11 sheets on glass, etc), it will not work, you'll have dubbing and a convex bevel even if minute - and experience the trouble as you mention.

But stuck down PSA paper backed rolls that are stuck down properly do a very good job and they're extremely aggressive. You can do a lot of bevel grinding on them also before they need to be ditched. Time spent sticking the paper down, etc, is no less than fiddling with the stone, and the surface is always flat. If you purchase a cabinet shelf like I did, the run can be long, too and you can get a really long stroke with a lot of pressure, and the only thing you have to worry about is not getting carried away and burning the edge of a blade from hand grinding.

Al-ox is the paper to use for something like this and dry. Silicon carbide crushes too easily and the water works against your speed wants. The more expensive super durable (and expensive) papers and belts offer a lot of extended life on a sander, but the hand pressure is too much for them and they're a waste of money in that application (learned that the hard way with blue zirconia, it doesn't last much longer than inexpensive alox).

Presume if you're woodworking an $18 roll could last you at least a year in the shop for all of your bevel work AND your back flattening. 80 grit mirka gold will outcut any stone I've seen when it's fresh (on backs), and even after it's tired for backs, it still works well on bevels.

Thanks David,

I have been using 3M Stikit Gold and always make sure the granite plate is clean. I also ease up on the pressure to avoid dubbing. I went with the 3M Stikit only because that's what Deneb (at Lie-Nielsen) uses and think the combination of PSA adhesive and "A" weight paper is what makes a difference. I wish it was only $18 per roll. I will definitely check out the Mirka.

I thought I had done everything possible to eliminate dubbing, but you could be right that I am still getting some dubbing and that is the reason why I need to work on a lower grit stone to make the transition. My understanding was that you can see the effect of the dubbed edge. When I get done with the sandpaper (at any grit) there is no sign of dubbing - the bevel is flat and the scratch pattern is perfectly uniform to the edge (under 10X magnification). That's why I thought I had solved the dubbing problem and actually thought that the transition from paper to stone was being caused by the fact the the sandpaper was actually flatter than the stones.

I really need someone to do a slow motion video at super high magnification so I can actually see what's happening when sandpaper dubs the edge of a blade.

Steve

[John Coloccia]

Personally, I use a DMT Duo coarse/fine for basic edge shaping. I don't see any advantage to a water stone for this kind of work.

[Rick Fisher]

Its funny, and I don't mind being laughed at but I have a nice collection of chisels which I decided to re-shape with water stones.. I sit in front of the TV at night with my Lee Valley Jig .. and work ..

I cant use a grinder well enough to touch a chisel to it .. I could only imagine the mess .. some of the chisels are not cheap, and my grinder skills are not good..

On the bright side.. I have learned a bunch about chisels.. A whole bunch ..

So far, with a 400 grit stone, then 1000# .. 4000#, 8000# and 13,000# .. I have completely reshaped the following ..

3 Tasai Japanese paring chisels .. 1/2", 3/4" and 1" ..

3 Blue Spruce bench chisels 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4"

And 2 Henry Taylor cranked neck paring chisels .. 3/4" and 1" ..


Practice makes perfect.. And over the last week, with hours of TV watched, I have spent hours upon hours working my wet stones. I am far from perfect, but I am better at this than I was a week ago .. :)

What I learned, and in my humble opinion.. Japanese laminated chisels are a lot harder than Blue spruce chisels .. and my Blue spruce chisels are considerably harder than my Henry Taylor chisels..

The Japanese chisels actually suck to re-shape.. its ridiculous how hard they are .. my arms burned .. each chisel seemed to take about at hour at 400# ..

The Blue spruce chisels are very hard but I could probably do almost 2 in the time it took to do a single Tasai chisel..

The Henry Taylor chisels remove steel pretty fast.. Twice as fast as the Blue Spruce .. If all I had was Henry Taylors, I would not seek a coarser stone..


Ideally I will never have to do this again (with these) .. I seemed to have learned the value of flattening my stones and the outcome of this exercise has made me pretty happy with the sharpness of each ..

All the chisels are super sharp.. The Tasai chisels never really got this sharp before and I really didn't use them much .. but now they are really impressive.. Sharper than I ever had a chisel before..

I don't mean to imply there is anything wrong with my Henry Taylors but its pretty obvious that they will need to be resharpened way, way sooner than the rest.. Having said that, it won't be a big deal to sharpen them ..

On that 120 Sigma stone, mine glazes up super fast.. I lost my little bottles of grit and kinda put it in a drawer some where.. The Sigma 400 is so much nicer to use ( IMO ) than the 120 .. I was hoping the 240 would be the same..

[John Coloccia]

re: the Taylors

Keep a strop on your bench, and strop them often. Every 5 strokes is not too often. You'll find that they last a LONG time between sharpening if you continuously strop them. I do this on all my cutting edges, actually, but I find it's especially effective on something with a shallow bevel like paring chisels.

[David Weaver]

The Henry Taylor chisels remove steel pretty fast.. Twice as fast as the Blue Spruce .. If all I had was Henry Taylors, I would not seek a coarser stone..


When you do this work by hand, you start to get an idea why a lot of the older tools are softer than the new catalog-spec-race tools that we have now.

Softer with chisels is fine as long as they sharpen faster and still hold an edge at an angle that you can live with. Old buck chisels are a good example, they're fairly soft, but they hold up very well for their hardness and they're easy to sharpen.

In work where you're going to be hitting the edge hard, if you're not using a high$ steel, you'll end up preferring a chisel that's not at the glass hard end of hardness, because they'll still have edge damage and they'll be harder to sharpen.

In fine japanese tools, though, where you will do regular touch-ups on the stone and not a lot of hard striking, the hardness is very nice.

[Joe Cunningham]

I cant use a grinder well enough to touch a chisel to it .. I could only imagine the mess .. some of the chisels are not cheap, and my grinder skills are not good..


Buy a $1 chisel at local garage/yard sale and practice on the grinder. It's not that hard a skill to learn. And with a practice chisel, if you overheat it, no big deal, go back to the grinder and grind off the overheated section and start over.

[Rick Fisher]

That is good advice on the grinder.. I have some old can openers chisels made in China by Stanley .. perfect for such abuse..

I think its good practice to do it the way I am doing it .. but I wouldn't do it for fun.. lol

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Using a dry grinder isn't a hard skill to master. Crowning the wheel, as Joel Moskowitz from TFWW in his article a year or two back was the the trick that made everything work for me. Certainly, one of those seeded-gel-abrasive wheels that runs really cool can't hurt, but I've been getting by fine with my stock grey wheels that came on my grinder. I think I'd prefer the cooler wheels more because the increased friability means stopping to dress the wheel less often.

There are reasons not to use a dry grinder on your tools, but difficulty in use shouldn't need to be one of them.

Practicing on something you care less about is a good idea, but even if you blue an edge, it's not the end of the world - I've done it a couple of times in the past, but I certainly can't think of a time when I "ruined" a tool. I'm not sure how you'd entirely ruin most tools. Larry Williams actually starts his sharpening DVD by bluing the edge of a favorite chisel of his, and points out that the steel is still harder than the wood, and even if you don't regrind past the bluing, the tool can still be used, it just needs more frequent honing.