Modifying a 1950s Beaver Lathe for Morse Taper

[Andrew Musgrave]

First of all, I'm a new member and fairly new to turning.

I got into turning at the beginning of the summer when I noticed a kijiji (canadian alternative to craigslist) ad for a 1950s beaver lathe. The price was (major gloat: )$25 :D. So far I have only turned bowls using various no-chuck methods, but I would like to try some other turning projects such as pepper mills and pens.

Which brings me to my current problem. The tailstock has a dead center and no morse taper. There is no morse taper at the headstock end either. Watching videos of pepper mill turning, it looks like drilling with a drill chuck in the tailstock is pretty much essential, and I would also like to upgrade to a live center if possible. Do you have any ideas on how I could go about this? Would it be possible to pay a machine shop to mill a morse taper directly into the dead center, and if so, what do you think it would cost?
For the headstock end, I noticed the oneway chucks have a morse taper specified for them. Does this mean they have a morse taper in them? That would solve the problem of how to mount a pen mandrel.

Here are some pics :

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k570/soneguy23/DSC_0034.jpg?t=1347314604

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k570/soneguy23/DSC_0033-1.jpg?t=1347314736

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k570/soneguy23/DSC_0035.jpg?t=1347314781

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k570/soneguy23/DSC_0038.jpg?t=1347314850


http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k570/soneguy23/DSC_0037.jpg?t=1347314923

[Jerry Marcantel]

Hi Andrew, welcome to SMC. You're gonna learn a lot here.... Now for the bad news. I'm not an expert and I could be wrong, but looking at you quill and spindle, both appear to be about 3/4" od, .750". The big end of a # 2 MT is .7000" and the small end is .57200". For the headstock, that would leave .050" for threads which would be weak...... Same goes for the tailstock...
The good news is you can get an adapter for the chuck, but unless you go with a #1 MT on the tailstock, you're out of luck unless you can find another tailstock with MT2 taper.. My belief is that to have a machine shop make your tailstock compatible with MT2, they would need to line bore the quill socket large enough for a quill that would accept MT2 would cost more than finding a tailstock that would match your swing.... BTW, what is your swing???? For more confusion, feel free to ask more questions............ Jerry (in Tucson)


The reason I'm inputing on this is I'm thinking of building my own tailstock to a 16" swing and don't want to user a riser to get the height.....

[Andrew Musgrave]

Hi Jerry, thanks for your input.
The lathe is 12" swing, 36" between centers. 7/8"-14 spindle, 3/4" tailstock.
Would it work with a #1 morse taper? That's what the Lee Valley shows as default for a oneway chuck for that spindle size anyways (which was my solution for the headstock), and they appear to have everything I want in both tapers.
Here's the chuck I'm talking about:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=45612&cat=1,330,69091&ap=1

Edit: Looking at the oneway basic chuck, which was the one I was planning on getting, it appears the MT in the chuck would not be deep enough for a pen mandrel by itself, but the talon chuck may be. Anyone have any input on this?

[Jerry Marcantel]

Ok, 7/8" spindle can have a MT2 put in it, but good luck on getting that done unless you know someone with a machine lathe at home. Go to youtube and put in " mrpete" for video search, or "How to turn a MT2 taper".... Besides explaining how to machine stuff, his other hobby is posting vids to youtube.... The MT vids are numbered in the 70's... I wasn't looking for a MT2 female, so I can't say if he has one posted or not.....
Ok, I looked at you chuck you're interested in. I'm not going to try to talk you out of those other than they use bars for tightening.... Here's a funny little story about Oneway. First off, I'm not gonna bad mouth their product, but here's the story. I developed a simple tool for turning. You can find the article by searching "How to build a Chuck Plate" in the Articles section here on SMC. Anyway, I thought I had something pretty special, and thought I could generate some interest from Oneway and possibly make a few bucks from my Chuck Plate. I talked to Kevin Clay, and now from what I've heard, he's a family member of the owner of Oneway, so I was talking to someone directly responsible, rather than just an employee.
Kevin listened to my description of the CP. I told him it was made of plywood, and probably would be better to have it made of steel and then it probably would have better market appeal... He said, "Nope, that won't work because you're tightening steel on steel and our jaws are designed for steel on wood"... He actually said that..... His next statement is what I call a funny little story.... I don't really remember what his exact words were, but the context was, the Big Bite tool that clamps into the jaws are comparable to your CP. I hadn't seen or heard of the Big Bite before then, so I looked it up after I'd gotten shot down by Kevin. It's a wide steel bar that looks to be a half of a regular 4 pronged spur. Steel on steel..... I've laughed about that since, and still find humor in it.
According to the manufacturer, you can't clamp steel on steel in their chucks, but yet, they sell 3 procucts that do just that.
Look into Nova chucks, and then build my Chuck Plate and forget about using a spur or faceplate ever again........ .... .. . . Jerry (In Tucson)

[Andrew Musgrave]

That chuck plate looks like a great idea.
If bars for tightening is considered a bad thing, maybe I'll get a Talon instead. Does anyone know if I could use the #1 MT in the chuck if I don't have any MT in the spindle?
Also, you seem to be exclusively referring to #2 MT. Is there any downside to #1 other than that it's less heavy duty? I don't plan on turning any bedposts or other huge spindles if that changes anything.

Andrew

[phil harold]

Just one thought
you dont need a morse taper on the spindle end
There used to be threaded spurs for spindles like yours
can you find them now?
who knows

easier just to but a Talon Scroll Chuck or strong hold on it and a spur adapter http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCENTQC1.html

for the tail stock i am would think you could get some one to machine it for a live center to work

[Andrew Musgrave]

A spur and a faceplate came with the lathe, a pen mandrel is what I'm trying for now. If I could get one of those that fit into a chuck, that would work too.
Really, the headstock is less of an immediate concern for me.
Does the MT designation of the chuck mean that you can put things with that MT directly in the chuck?

Andrew

[Rodney Walker]

An MT1 will fit in a 3/4" diameter spindle or tailstock. I know older Craftsman lathes used a 3/4-16 thread on the outside of the spindle with an MT1 on the inside. While nice to have, it's really not necessary on the spindle end but would be good on the tailstock. The only real concern I can see on the tailstock would be the alignment groove in it. As long as there's enough material for the taper to miss the groove you should be able to do it. For that size lathe an MT1 should be sufficiently strong and would certainly make your lathe more useful. My daughter's lathe has a 5/8" diameter solid tailstock so I understand the limitations.
Rodney

[Harry Robinette]

Andrew
Check with PSI or Best Woods I do believe that one of them sells a pen mandrel with a theaded end for the head stock. that shoud take care of the head stock.
Now the tail end I would try to find a bearing that you can push onto the tail quill, then make a wooden nose piece that would fit on the outside of the bearing.
Oh yea the chuck you get ,most of the jaws for the chucks like the pin jaws will hold a plain mandrel. this just somethings I've seen through the years, Hope it Helps

[Dale Miner]

A spur and a faceplate came with the lathe, a pen mandrel is what I'm trying for now. If I could get one of those that fit into a chuck, that would work too.
Really, the headstock is less of an immediate concern for me.
Does the MT designation of the chuck mean that you can put things with that MT directly in the chuck?

Andrew

No, that is not what it is implying. The chuck does not mount into a morse taper, it mounts on the threaded end of the spindle. The chuck does not have a morse taper in it to accept spurs, mandrels, etc.

The chart that you referred to lists the taper that those spindles could of either been supplied with, or the maximum size of the taper that the spindle of that size can be fitted with (bored to).

A 3/4" quill in the tailstock is to small to accept a #2 morse taper. The max would be a #1 morse taper. If you had a jacobs chuck or keyless chuck mounted on a #1 morse taper, and tried to drill the 1-5/8" counterbore for a pepper mill, the taper would likely either spin in the quill, or twist the taper off at the end of the quill. Even drilling the 1-1/16" hole for a pepper mill would be an overload of the #1 morse taper. While it may be possible to find a live center on a #1 morse taper shank, the strength of the shank where it exits the quill will be quite small. Trying to use a live center on that small of a shank would likely give trouble for anything but the lightest or work. 11" bowls started between centers would definately be out.

Another issue with the tailstock quill is the method that advances it towards the headstock. It looks as though there is about a 1/2" threaded tail on the quill that the handwheel threads onto and pushes and retracts the quill. If the quill was bored to accept a morse taper, then the threaded tail would need to be drilled through to allow for a knockout rod to drive the centers, drill chucks, etc. from the quill. The threaded tail of the quill would lose substantial strength from the through drilling.

While not a fits all do all solution, you could probably have a machine shop make another quill that accepts a thread on chuck. It would be neccessary to swap out the entire quill when going from drilling to other uses. You could have your current quill reworked with the live center built onto it permanently. Neither of those are low dollar prospects.

From a practical standpoint, it may be best to look into a replacement tailstock. A 12" Jet tailstock has a #2 morse taper, may be the correct heigth, and only need some rework to the tongue that guides it along the bed.

[Andrew Musgrave]

Thanks for your input dale.
I guess it's back to the drawing board for now, then.

Andrew

[Bill Boehme]

The cost of paying a machine shop to do any of the work that you are thinking about such as machining Morse taper sockets in the tailstock quill or headstock spindle would wind up costing you more than buying a new lathe of equivalent size. Besides that, the new lathe would be much better than the modified lathe. Even the cost of buying adapters from Best Wood Tools to enable you do do a few things that can be done on modern lathes will have a pretty stiff price tag.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Hi Jerry, thanks for your input.
The lathe is 12" swing, 36" between centers. 7/8"-14 spindle, 3/4" tailstock.
Would it work with a #1 morse taper? That's what the Lee Valley shows as default for a oneway chuck for that spindle size anyways (which was my solution for the headstock), and they appear to have everything I want in both tapers.
Here's the chuck I'm talking about:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=45612&cat=1,330,69091&ap=1

Edit: Looking at the oneway basic chuck, which was the one I was planning on getting, it appears the MT in the chuck would not be deep enough for a pen mandrel by itself, but the talon chuck may be. Anyone have any input on this?

Andrew the Oneway chuck does not come with a Morse Taper, (the MT1 in that table you refer to is meant with what size MT this lathe comes with, if it has a MT that is, and as you found out this is not always the case)

I think I did reply to your post in the Canadian Woodworking forum, and I still think that you could get another Beaver-Rockwell 3400 lathe for less $$ than it would cost to get a machine shop to machine a MT into the tailstock, idem for the headstock.

When you do get another Rockwell-Beaver you can sell the rest of the pieces and recoup most or more of what you pay for the lathe.

The other thing is that a pen mandrel can be held in the Oneway chuck, drilling on that lathe can be done for smaller holes by setting the drill-chuck against the tailstock and handholding it while you advance the tailstock, for the larger holes that would not work of course, but drilling with a drill press and then later doing the turning would be feasible though not easy.

Maybe it wasn't you Andrew, as this question does come up more often and the answers to that question are as I put it here as well, sorry f I mixed up names/persons :o

[Andrew Musgrave]

Thanks, I was wondering what that meant.
That must have been someone else's post on the Canadian woodworking forum.

Andrew

[ray hampton]

it may be possible to buy a tailstock for a different lathe and machine it to fit your lathe bed , can you measure your bed and tell me what the measures are ?

[Marvin Hasenak]

You could have a sleeve machined to fit the tailstock quill with set screws and have the other end of the sleeve with MT. Truthfully I would set this one up for a buffing lathe and move on to another lathe with 1-8TPI and 2MT on both ends. It is a great piece of "old iron", I would hate to see it messed up.

[Andrew Musgrave]

The tailstock is aligned between two bars spaced 2" apart. It is clamped down with a piece on the other side and is adjusted by loosening the bolt between them. The center is 5 3/8" above the rails (but there is 7 1/2" to the bed at the headstock end where the rails end. So that means I could turn a 15" platter but only a 10 3/4" spindle. I wonder where the 12" swing measurement came from).

Since it seems like all the 'easy' fixes are out, I will likely end up using alternative methods or sticking to things I can turn.
For pepper mills, would it work if I drilled the holes with a drill press? I would have to drill the top and bottom separately, and drill the bottom from both sides, keeping everything aligned in a vice. I would turn them using a pair of jam chucks to match the holes holes in the blank, with one in the chuck and the other in the tailstock. Would that be a reasonable approach?
For the pen mandrel it sounds like I could mount one end in the jaws of the chuck, but for the other end, could it be held with a dead center, or is a live center needed?

[Dale Miner]

The tailstock is aligned between two bars spaced 2" apart. It is clamped down with a piece on the other side and is adjusted by loosening the bolt between them. The center is 5 3/8" above the rails (but there is 7 1/2" to the bed at the headstock end where the rails end. So that means I could turn a 15" platter but only a 10 3/4" spindle. I wonder where the 12" swing measurement came from).

Since it seems like all the 'easy' fixes are out, I will likely end up using alternative methods or sticking to things I can turn.
For pepper mills, would it work if I drilled the holes with a drill press? I would have to drill the top and bottom separately, and drill the bottom from both sides, keeping everything aligned in a vice. I would turn them using a pair of jam chucks to match the holes holes in the blank, with one in the chuck and the other in the tailstock. Would that be a reasonable approach?
For the pen mandrel it sounds like I could mount one end in the jaws of the chuck, but for the other end, could it be held with a dead center, or is a live center needed?

While it is possible to drill in a drill press, getting the holes to meet in the center of the blank when drilling from each end would be a challange to say the least. The holes don't have to meet exatcly, but need to be within a 1/16" or so. Getting the ends of the blank faced square to the hole is important so that the mill sets straight and also so that the knob sets on the body straight. If the drill press hole wanders off square, then the knob will sit a bit off square and there will be a gap on one side. The mill will still function, just look a bit off. If you are interested in a variation of a mill, Packard sells a mini mill that is only 4" tall, and all the drilling can be done on it in a drill press.

I don't think you will have much success with a pen mandrel on a dead center in the tailstock. That arrangement would have steel against steel in a sliding rotation fashion. Even with oil, the typical high rpm's used in pen turning would cause wear, and galling of the parts.

Here is an option; Purchase this live center http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2004436/8393/2-morse-taper-live-tail-center.aspx Take the live center apart, take the parts and your tailstock quill to your machine shop, and have the end of your quill machined to match the part of the center that the bearing mounts on. This way you will have a live center. I have seen the center in the link. It is not the greatest of quality, but holds up fairly well. When the bearing in it fails, it isn't to difficult or expensive to replace. It is possible to turn wooden parts that fit over the outside of the body of the center and make bull nose cones, cups, etc.

For doing peppermills, I chuck up a waste piece and turn a tenon on the waste piece that will snugly fit into the 1 5/8" counterbore in the bottom of the mill. The snug fit drives the mill for final turning and sanding. I fit the tenon on the knob snugly into the body, and put the cone point of the live center in the hole in the knob for the mechanism shaft. Pressure from the tailstock holds the knob onto the body and the body on the waste piece tenon. The entire mill body and knob can be final turned at once. After final turning, the fit between the knob and body can be given operating clearance quickly with some 120 grit while the body is still on the tenon of the waste piece and spinning slowly. I suppose that a plug could be fit into the top of the body and held with the dead center of the tailstock, but running the top of the knob on the dead center would make a mark that would not be attractive.

With the 5 3/8" center heigth, the 12" Jet tailstock will be to high. The center heigth of a 10" Jet is 5", so it would neet to be raised to match your center heigth.

[Andrew Musgrave]

Thanks, I thought that might be the case with the pen mandrel. What if I turned a UHMW cone to fit over the dead center? That would eliminate the metal on metal contact, and might act sort of like a bearing.

That 4" mill looks like it would be good to start off with. I live near a lee valley, which sells the same kind of pepper mill as the 4" but starting with 8" as well as the crush grind ceramic mechanisms. I would prefer to be able to use kits from lee valley if possible so I don't have to pay shipping. I would also prefer to not use crush grind mechanisms because they seem to need a significantly larger investment in forstner bits.

What if I:
Drilled the blanks on the drill press
Turned them round with a snug fitting tenon in the chuck and a UHMW cone in the tailstock (or another snug fitting plug for the tailstock)
Trim the ends of the blanks with a v-block and crosscut sled on the bandsaw
Turn the rest with tight fitting plugs and a UHMW cone.

That way everything should be referenced off of the drilling I did on the drill press. What do you think of that plan?