What would you charge?

[fRED mCnEILL]

I was commissioned by a lady to build a display case for an antique saddle. It was agreed that the case would be glass on 4 sides and the top and the wood would be a dark color.How to build it was up to me and no price was discussed other than the price of the glass. The lady is more than an aquaintance but not really a friend so I wasn't building it as a favor-in other words it was a straight business deal. I used birch(which I have a lot of) for the posts and rails and baltic birch for the bottom. The construction is floating tennons. The posts are 2X2 made by laminating 1X2's and the rails are 1X2's (approx). The finish is aniline water dye and spray lacquer. Also built, but not in the picture, is a stand for the saddle constructed from baltic birch plywood and also lacquered.The construction took me a long time due to some costly mistakes (in time only) and the fact that I am slow. I also learned some new tecqniques as I went along. I didn't take the mistakes or the learning aspect into account when I gave her the bill.(in other words I didn't charge her for my mistakes) The lady loves it, it looks awsome in her home and she wants me to build 2 more, one identical and one triangular.

I'm wondering what some of you would charge for something like this both in dollars and in hours to construct.(excluding the glass) I don't want to overcharge but if I don't chage enough I won't be in business very long either.

Thanks

Fred Mc.

[fRED mCnEILL]

I was commissioned by a lady to build a display case for an antique saddle. It was agreed that the case would be glass on 4 sides and the top and the wood would be a dark color.How to build it was up to me and no price was discussed other than the price of the glass. The lady is more than an aquaintance but not really a friend so I wasn't building it as a favor-in other words it was a straight business deal. I used birch(which I have a lot of) for the posts and rails and baltic birch for the bottom. The construction is floating tennons. The posts are 2X2 made by laminating 1X2's and the rails are 1X2's (approx). The glass is held in place by 3/8ths square shop-made molding on both sides The finish is aniline water dye and spray lacquer. Also built, but not in the picture, is a stand for the saddle constructed from baltic birch plywood and also lacquered.The construction took me a long time due to some costly mistakes (in time only) and the fact that I am slow. I also learned some new tecqniques as I went along. I didn't take the mistakes or the learning aspect into account when I gave her the bill.(in other words I didn't charge her for my mistakes) The lady loves it, it looks awsome in her home and she wants me to build 2 more, one identical and one triangular.

I'm wondering what some of you would charge for something like this both in dollars and in hours to construct.(excluding the glass) I don't want to overcharge but if I don't chage enough I won't be in business very long either.

Thanks

Fred Mc.

[Alan Bienlein]

$350 to $400 plus the cost of the tempered glass.

[Steven Hsieh]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?116573-Art-vs-Production-Pricing-Work

[Gary Breckenridge]

Add it up.

Figure the cost of materials and the cost of getting the materials. Add a small percentage for tools, electricity and consumables. Figure your labor at a $20 minimum. Then add a premium for your skill and artistic ability.

[Mike Heidrick]

$400 plus the cost of the tempered glass.

Yep! And only because you can get two more otherwise $500.

[Peter Quinn]

$1500 plus materials+finishing. Is the electric company your friend or acquaintance? Do you have a source for free lumber? Does any sponsor give you free tooling and sharpen it for free? I'm guessing no, but if so you can certainly pass on the favor. If its a business, it needs to at least break even. I figured 30-35 hours to build the piece, soup to nuts, ready to finish, sanded, molding applied, glass installed etc, and thats conservative frankly. That doesn't give much time for design or drawing which eats a lot of time in custom work as its generally divided by a quantity of 1. And if you don't spend enough time at the computer/drafting table, lots of mistakes will happen in the shop, but to be harsh and honest it sounds like you've already experienced that? Build it on paper first, whole thing goes better later. At a shop rate of $40-$45/hour, I came to that price. If you want to pay your self $20/hour labor for your skill, and to pay your actual expenses, $45 shop rate is nearly a minimum. Finishing is a whole other devil which takes lots of time, and tools, and resources. Don't sell that short.

I've certainly sold work cheaper than it was worth because I wanted to take the project. And often the clients will be saying "Yes, I'd like more of that", it gets weird if you take them up to a full market rate later, like some bait and switch. Dicey business. Thats not a complicated piece, but with the glass rabbits, the joinery, the stock prep, etc, it adds up quick. Keep careful track of your actual time, your mistakes, etc. to help develop future estimates.

[Sam Murdoch]

I read your post earlier this evening and had to think about how to respond. Your last sentence is the qualifier - I don't want to overcharge but if I don't chage enough I won't be in business very long either. With that idea of running a "business" in mind I came to the same #s as Peter Quinn. You delivered it too I bet :rolleyes:. My lowest $ figure was $1,400.00 for your labor + the cost of materials - glass, lumber, finish and other project consumables. You could be pushing $ 1,800.00 to $ 2,200.00 delivered depending on what kind of a price you could get on glass. No regards to your inexperience and learning on the job. If the end product was all you said it would be and what your client expected, she is getting a good deal.

Peter wrote a good response, +1 in my opinion.

[John Coloccia]

For non-fixed price items, I generally bill at cost + $40 an hour labor. I don't include head scratching (unless it's something really off the wall), shop cleaning, mistakes, etc as labor costs. I include time spent actually building. This assumes I do it on my own schedule. If it's something that has to be done now, then everything is included in my labor costs because I have to concentrate 100% on that one project and it's displacing everything else.

The reason I don't include head scratching, cleaning etc is that I'm a pro and as a pro I'm expected to know how to do things in an efficient manner. If I don't know how to do it, that's my problem. I'll learn on this project and apply it to future projects, but that's my problem, not my customer's problem. If I can't keep a tidy shop because I don't have proper techniques and discipline in place, that's my problem. My customer shouldn't incur those costs.

That said, looking at the project I'd probably be somewhere around $1000 + cost. Even that leaves little room for profit, because I have to pay for electricity, sharpening, taxes, etc, but it looks like a simple enough project that I could knock it out in my spare time if I really wanted to. That's the kind of projects I love. Instead of twiddling my thumbs when I have some downtime, I can be getting this out the door.

[Jay Jolliffe]

If you did that case for 400.00 or 500.00 and that's how you were going to price your work I don't think you'd be in business too long. The prices that are 1,000.00 & up are more like it. Don't under charge your self. You have to pay for a lot of things that you really don't think about do your work. I'm learning this myself as being a mister nice guy like I am & give many breaks to people, that doesn't pay the bills. You have to figure in time getting materials, gas , electricity. insurance you pay for it all adds up. My wife asks why do I give millionaires breaks & we have a hard time paying bills. There is something wrong with this picture. Being mister nice guy doesn't pay the bills. Just my two cents.

[Ken Krawford]

I'm going to be very interested in how this post plays out. Hopefully, you've got a very understanding client or one with deep pockets and/or an unlimited budget. Giving a price after a project is completed is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. You could show this project to 10 different people and ask what they would pay for it. I'd be willing to be that the answers would be all over the place. Keep us posted.

[Matt Day]

I agree with Ken for the most part. But of course we don't know the relationship you have with the client, she may not flinch at a $2,000 bill. Regardless of the relationship, I think it's a good idea to at least mention a rough estimate with the client before you begin designing/building.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Keep track of your hours spent. Include any finishing/glue/fasteners etc. Determine how much an hour you want add the materials and that's your cost. How much you decide to charge the friend is up to you.

[Paul Sikorski]

I don't sell my work. But a very enlightening post about running a business. I wonder do you try and feel out your customer before pricing to get a feel for what they might pay or is it just a flat pricing schedule for the most part.

[Don Jarvie]

It's going to be hard to charge more the the 1st one unless the wood or size is different. If you know how much the supplies would cost then take the remaining money and divide by how long it took. Then you have your shop rate which by the tone of the post is probably low which is to be expected.

Unless the profits are putting food on the table don't sweat it. Enjoy what your doing and make some money for tools.
As you plan for the next two think of ways to be more efficient such as using cut list. Track how long you spend for each session in the shop and what you did in each. This way you can track you time and see where mistakes were made and time wasted.

[Sam Murdoch]

I don't sell my work. But a very enlightening post about running a business. I wonder do you try and feel out your customer before pricing to get a feel for what they might pay or is it just a flat pricing schedule for the most part.

First of all, I address this response to the folks who are running small woodworking operations (1-3 people) and producing primarily custom work. The more production oriented folks don't need to read this - they already have it figured out. Having said that - starting out from a hobbyist to a business woodworker, after calculating your overhead and the cost of materials you might only have your gut and the look in your client's eyes to tell you what your product should cost. After years of being in the business of woodworking however, you'd better have some idea of what your work needs to cost before you start playing to the "feel" of the customer. All the Business 101 stuff considered + you just need to have a real world sense of how long it takes you to build/finish a piece or a kitchen of custom cabinetry and what the variables might be that will sabotage your profit margin or enhance it.

Speaking for myself - the big shop with the design team, all kinds of software, CNC machines, banks of machinery, professional spray booth etc. all behind me now - I go to work every day by myself to build one of a kind pieces for all manner of client. I no longer have "system pricing" that allows me to calculate a running foot cost for cabinetry. That's not what I do. Every project I begin to price has the variable of this being a one off. I have the years of experience to be able to build the project in my head through each phase to give me a reasonably accurate time frame. That time frame + the cost of materials + my shop overhead and maybe the need for a helper to deliver or install etc. allows me to come up with a reasonable price of what the project "should cost". It is then up to me to decide if the "feel" of the customer will support that price, or more or less and how generous I want to be or not. When I get into that "feel" factor I am no longer a businessman, but rather a woodworker who is deciding if I want the project or not and at what price to me. Very often in the world of custom woodworking you get to a point in the job at which the project demands its own needs and you just have to do the work to make the project worthy of your time and your reputation.

I am building a kitchen right now for example in which every one of 3 elevations is different - face frames - no face frames - short bases - taller bases - painted cabinets - rough board cabinets and on and on. There are only 3 conventional doors, all the rest are pullouts hiding $ 2,500.00 worth of Hafele hardware or drawers. I designed a "simple" decorative paint detail that has proven to be, not challenging so much as very tedious - lots of masking tape and fine paint brushes. I am not going to make much more than a good living, dollar wise on this project - there were too many details that defied accurate estimating. This is a project that has told me what it needs and I just do what I'm told. :rolleyes: I am however building a kitchen that the clients will love and that I will be proud to have produced and I am certain that more work will come of it.

So to answer Paul's question - yes and no :D

[Richard Coers]

Should be pretty easy since it sounds like it is done. Labor at $50/hr min. Include design time, delivery, material pickup, etc.... Priced a plumber lately, if so, go to $100/hr.

[Carl Beckett]

There is 'market pricing'

and

'cost based' pricing

Figuring out what something costs and then setting a price on it is in my opinion - the 'wrong' approach. Yes you have to determine your costs to ensure you can make a profit - but that has nothing to do with what the customer is willing to pay. The idea in pricing is to extract the maximum economic value to YOUR business (so if you can build it for $1... and the customer is willing to pay $1000 and be happy and keep coming back, then by all means do so!!). At the same time even if it costs you $1000 fully burdened - doesnt matter if the customer is only willing to pay $500.

My brother used to fix antiques. He got pretty good (meaning really good) at it - a true artist/chemist/woodworker. But after a while he got tired of it so just kept upping his prices thinking people would go away. What happened?? Demand went UP! (go figure) People trusted him with grandmas table and would pay anything for it

[Glenn Ancona]

Alan in TX at $400 and Peter in CT at $ 1500 they are worlds apart in their pricing -could be the state they live in, Taxes, cost of living, cost of electric or what they feel their time is worth. We would be closer but higher than the CT price here in upstate N.Y. No shop here is as low as $ 45/hr. and glass would be 45 minutes away. A plumber or Electrician here are $60+ /hr. with no shop and no over head. From start to finish including p/u glass, finishing and delivery of the piece including the interior saddle stand -we would be 2K. I have to disconnect from the billing /pricing aspect -what it will cost vs what they can afford etc. I've worked up prices on pieces for prospective clients only to be told they have someone that can do it for half that -Oh well! On the other hand sticking to what I know a piece will cost to produce has opened many doors to future profitable work. Its none of my buisiness what income bracket a client is in - My job is to turn a profit, to be able to contribute to our community and at the end of the day pay the bills.

[johnny means]

2 hr millling
1 hr joinery
.5 hr glue up
1 hr sanding
2 hr finishing
1 hr glass work
________________
7.5 labor = 8 hrs billable @ $60 per

+ cost

Good days work in my book.

[Michael W. Clark]

Seems like you would want to mark-up your supplies and purchases some %. It "costs" you money and/or time to go and buy hardware that is re-sold to the customer. You have to pick out lumber, stack it, and sort it, this costs time. You may account for this mathematically in shop burden, but those are actually two different costs. I would put consumables such as glue, biscuits, sandpaper, sharpening, in with shop burden and utilities. But hardware, glass, lumber, materials would get their own mark-up based on the item. I'm sure it all works out in the end.

Caveat, I don't have a WW business, but I quote engineered equipment. Conceptually, there are similar costs and methodology to custom furniture and engineered equipment. Design, buyouts, fabrication, etc.

Just to give you an idea of sales price vs. lumber price, a buddy of mine wants a butcher block island out of walnut and maple 42x84x1.5 thick. I got a quote on materials and it was about $350 just for lumber (8/4 stock), and about $200 for 4/4 stock. A local shop gave him a price of over $1k for a 1" thick top.

[George Gyulatyan]

no price was discussed other than the price of the glass.

Why not? If you're running a professional business and hope to stay in business this should've been discussed and agreed upon before the project even started. At this point, any price you state one of you, or maybe even both, are going to be unhappy with.

My $0.02.

[Don Selke]

Material and labor including shop cost X 2.5% should give you a good profit.

[Larry Edgerton]

I read your post and figured it as I normally would. I came up with $1350 plus costs.

I have a way of looking at these things. I ask myself, "If I wasn't getting paid would I be doing this?"

So if I am fishing, no charge. Doing woodwork is $55 an hour plus costs.

Larry

[Jim Neeley]

"I've worked up prices on pieces for prospective clients only to be told they have someone that can do it for half that!"

I don't do woodworking commercially but I've seen that in my own line of consulting... my interpretation:

* My standard response is a polite "Then perhaps that person's work is what is right for you." and left it at that. About half of the time they came back to me later asking me to work the job.

* I used to have people approach me wanting me to make things such as bookshelves because they figured they could get me to hand-make hardwood ones for less than the $109 that Walmart wanted for particle board. If they find someone else, good for them.

* Some customers you cannot afford; they're often the pickiest and slowest to pay!!

[fRED mCnEILL]

WOW. Lots of good responses and plenty of good advice.

First of all I should explain my situation further. I am a small manufacturer of "tack boxes" for the horse community. Show jumpers to be more specific. As such I am at the extreme upper end of the pricing scale.(you can see examples of what I build here www.blackberryhollowtacktrunks.com (http://www.blackberryhollowtacktrunks.com)) While there is some woodworking involved its not much. .I also work from my farm so overhead is minimal.Mostly drawer facings with baltic birch.However, all the work is done using common woodworking tools. At any rate it is a far cry from furniture making. I have no trouble whatsover with charging what I do. When someone suggests my product is expensive I simply say "yes, you are right and my product is not for everyone". I also do regular woodworking as a hobby but did build all the cabinets in our kitchen reno. But this display care was the first "real" furniture I have built. The lady asked me to build it because she saw the workmanship in my tack boxes and thought I could probably do a good job on what she wanted. And, to complicate things even further she is a woodworker herself but either felt she couldn't do the job or just didn't have time.

So I didn't have a clue as to how long it would take me and I was a bit intimidated by the fact she is also a woodworker. What I did know, though, is that I like to get at least $50 per hour for my work. I also knew going in that it was going to take me longer that it either should or that I figured it would, simply because it was my first.

As for Sam who said "you delivered it" my answer is "of course".LMAO

So, as I said, I priced out the glass which was $250. then added $100 for wood and added $450 for my labor. I took me about 30 hours so I fell a "Little" short" of $50 per hour. LOL

What did I learn from all of the comments on this thread.

1. Make sure you agree on a price BEFORE you start.
I don't seem to have a problem doing that with the tack boxes.

2.There is more to pricing a piece than simply wood and labor.
While my overhead is minimal there still is some overhead.In addition I never even thought of the tool investment I have which has to be figured in.

3. Spend a lot more time figuring out how long it SHOULD take.

4. Based on the figure of $1500-2000 maybe I wasn't as far "off base"on the time it took me as I thought.

5. While, at first, I thought I may have charged too much, in fact the lady got a "hell" of a deal.

6. I also agree wholeheartedly that you should chage "what the market will bear" rather that what it costs plus labor etc.

Anyway, thaanks to all who responded. Its been very enlightening.

Regards

Fred