Timber Frame Workshop (and house...)

[Todd Burch]

So, this might turn out to be a long thread... long from a time-period standpoint, and long from a lot of posts. (and maybe long from my windedness too! ;) )

I want to build a timber frame shop and house. I can't afford hiring it out. The house I had quoted was $100K just for the frame and SIPs. No slab, no exterior walls. Ouch.

My wife and I love the look of a timber frame. We've set our sights on doing it.

So, what do I need to do it?

Well, a piece of property would help. We have a piece of property, bought pretty quickly a year ago when we saw it, but the acreage community that it belongs to, unfortunately, has been bestowed with the highest property tax in the county, and, the houses (2 of the 17 lots) that have been built so far, look like typical "subdivision" homes. Not a lot of "country" character. We bought "in the country" for that country "look and feel", but that ain't happening where we bought. The good news is that the property has gone up about 15-20% since we bought it. Just under 3.5 acres in Washington County, Texas.

Next, some way to move and shape logs. No tractor, but I do have a pickup and a 16' trailer. And an electric winch for it. A couple chainsaws. I bought a Prazi beam saw attachment for my Skil Worm saw here a while back too. I've been eyeing a LOGRITE.com forwarding arch. Not ready to bite that bullet yet - or make one myself. Timber framing tools. Gave the wife a hint and a John Neeman price list. Birthday is November. We'll see if it stuck.

Bandsaw mill. I actually had the day off from work today, and drove 370 miles round trip to go see a demo of a Logmaster LM1 mill. Nice folks. Nice mill. The one I spec'ed out would be about $10.5K. Note to self: buy a lotto ticket. I've also been eyeing Danny's mill (Hi Danny) that's for sale in the classifieds. No place to store it now. Looks like a good deal.

Time and help. My dad is retired, 72, and is an ox. He could help. But he's also a freight train when it comes to getting things done. He doesn't stop to necessarily do it right - but that's what I've observed him do on his projects. Love ya dad.

Plans. I've started them, but I've never designed this type of structure before, but I'm willing to learn. Had I to do it over again, I would go to college and get a mechanical engineering degree, and structural, and civil, and electrical, and business finance. But alas, approaching 50, that ain't going to happen. I'm a high school graduate and proud of it.

I'll post some sketchup tinkerings later for my shop plans. I'm planning about 1600 square feet and then a loft for storage and maybe temp living quarters upstairs too.

Here we go..... ;)

Todd

[jason thigpen]

I can't wait to watch this thing develop! We are thinking of doing the same thing. We are lucky and have family property in Leakey, TX. Already have a nice spot picked out. We want a timber frame house and wood shop connected with a dog run. Washington County is a beautiful area. Are you thinking of selling your property now and buying something a little more secluded?

[Art Mulder]

Have you thought about buying beams from a disassembled barn? that'd save on shaping logs for sure.

[Todd Burch]

... Are you thinking of selling your property now and buying something a little more secluded?

That's exactly what we are thinking. Been looking for a few months now - just haven't found the right one in the right area yet. Working without a timing pressure is probably prolonging the search.

[Todd Burch]

Have you thought about buying beams from a disassembled barn? that'd save on shaping logs for sure.

Hi Art. I have looked (internet) at several. A lot of the "barns" are more suited as... barns!! Lots of middle posts instead of clear spans. Won't work too well for the shop I want. And, they are still fairly expensive. I'm thinking that purchasing a mill, tractor, logs, and associated tools will cost about the same as these repurposed "kits", if not less, and I'll have new lumber and a design I pick. Yes, more labor will be involved on my part, but that's OK. There are certainly a lot out there to choose from with neat histories though.

[Jim Andrew]

If you are looking for a strong, low cost mill, you might look at the EZ Boardwalk, built in MO. Any chance there are trees with long logs on property you might buy? And forget any other piece of equipment besides a tractor with fel or a skidsteer. The arch might be ok for logs away from your own property, but the tractor or skidsteer is the only way to go when logs are close by. Forks for the loader are a must.

[Richard Shaefer]

Buy this book: "The Craft of Modular Post & Beam" by James Mitchell. The guy writes like a total survivalist nut bar, but the book is brilliant and well thought out for those who want to take a go at post and beam themselves.

Just to fan the flame, I would go a step further than just buying timbers from a pulled down barn; buy the whole frame, piece mark it, and put it back together on your new site. It may not be exactly what you want, but it will save you thousands of dollars and months of time. You can always tweak the frame to suit your needs.

[Scott T Smith]

Todd, you might want to consider joining the Forestry Forum (www.forestryforum.com (http://www.forestryforum.com)). There are quite a few timber framers on there and lots of good info.

I don't recall there being a lot of large, straight trees in the Brenham, TX area, so you may need to source your logs from Bastrop or East Texas. If you have to go that far for them, you may be better off having them milled at a local mill as opposed to transporting and doing them yourself.

Lots of great timberframe books around. In addition to James Mitchell's book, look for those by Steve Chappel, Ted Benson, and Steward Elliot. I recall that one of Chappel's books has some technical guidance as well.

Check with the local permitting folks about codes related to timber frames. Some county's are very supportive - others less so.

Best of success with your projects! It's a wonderful craft.

Scott

[Jim Andrew]

Had another thought on this. If you do not have the trees, timber frame is going to be expensive. Have you considered building a Morton building style building? If you have access to look at one of these modern pole type buildings, Morton uses laminated poles, where they jog the ends of the boards, using treated in the ground, and graft framing lumber onto them for the tops. The trusses sit in a notch in the pole, and they have joist hangers fastened onto the trusses for the nailers. For bracing, they X the building with flat steel that is unrolled and nailed in an X pattern in 3 or 4 areas. The trusses are heavy, and are from 10' or 12' on center. Some other brands use poles on 8' centers. My thinking, an improvement would be to put steel anchors in the concrete to set your poles on, so you bury no wood. Some of my neighbors have had treated poles rot off, and they had to dig the pole out, and put concrete in the hole and build an anchor to hold the pole. Be easier if you just built it that way.

[Charles Lent]

A former neighbor wanted to do this. He bought a portable sawmill and arranged with a local farmer to buy trees. He began by cutting and milling the logs and storing them in a 2 car garage. When he was ready, he moved this timber to his new property and built a 4 car sized timber framed garage from them, with plans to continue milling enough timber to build his new home. Shortly after he completed his garage, the town zoning board passed a law requiring that all framing materials used in new construction had to be inspected, graded, and stamped by a certified inspection agency. He first hired a lawyer to fight the law, since he had already received a permit to build his garage and house, but without success. Then he spent months trying to get his timber inspected and graded to meet the requirements, but in the end he gave up and built a conventional home with materials purchased from the lumber yard. I hope you are successful. That's a major undertaking for someone who is also working a full time job. My neighbor had taken early retirement to follow his dream, worked at it from sun up to sun down 6+ days a week for several years, and still was not able to succeed.

Charley

[Matt McColley]

Hi Todd,

I'm probably one of the few who can say "been there, done that"

I took a year off and went full time clearing part of an 8 acre lot, harvested logs and had a woodmizer man on site to mill up 10,000 BF of beams and boards.

I built a modification of Jack Sobon's Hall and Parlor frame and still live in it today.

It's hard to address your topic without writing a book (and there are several very good ones out there... by Ted Benson (I like his older work), Steve Chapel and as I mentioned Jack Sobon).

This is a HUGE undertaking.... I started in '96, intending to be living in an unfinished house within a year. I ran out of money in the summer of '97 with the frame up, panels up (no windows) and typar wrapped and the roof shingled.... and had to go back to work. Got married 9 mo. later and didn't move into the "unfinished" house until late winter of '99. I still don't have trim in the upstairs bathroom... but we've had three kids, built a large stick framed addition and a barn and flipped a cottage in the interim.

Here's some lessons I learned.
1. Either use a prooven plan... or ... have somebody who Timber Frames for a living review your plan.
2. DO NOT pour hundreds of hours of your labor into sub-standard materials. You want timbers with straight grain and no reaction wood. If I did it again, I would spec. the timber grades, buy from a local mill, and insist that they pass my personal inspection b4 being delivered and paid for. I would also seriously consider UV KD timbers. Why? You can get HUGE checks in your pretty TF and mourn over them for the rest of your life.
3. You have to have non-load bearing, studded (preferably with 2x6) interior walls that do NOT have timbers under or above them planned into your design to get cable, water and air up and down.
4. You must take carpenter ants very seriously and invest in keeping them away from your SIPs.
5. You need to be extremely fussy about window, door and trim flashing when you side the house, as rotted SIPs are a huge pita and expense to repair. I'm not sure I would use SIPs again.... actually, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.
6. If you do go with SIPs, use Urethane and not EPS.
7. When you have your plan drafted up... consider having Benson quote cutting it for you on their Hundiger (CNC beam cutter).

Charlie makes good points about dealing with the code enforcement crowd. TF construction is not cook book UBC type stuff. Unless you live in a rural (free) state, you will need an engineers stamp on your plans and some type of certification of the materials. Even if your CE let's you build it, realize that you may have a difficult time if (heaven forbid) you ever have to sell it, as most home inspectors won't have any idea what they're looking at.

I am very proud of my house, and building it was one of the highlights of my life. But it is not for the faint of heart.

Good luck with yours. Feel free to pm me with any questions.

[Todd Burch]

Well, I'm back on this project. I decided 1600 sf was not big enough. This is 2400sf (40 X 60), plus a 2nd floor (~1100 sf). (See here for background on this comment: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?194970-I-think-I-now-understand-my-problem-I-m-out-of-space)

I decided that designing from the outside in might be faster / easier. This is a look I like. The shape is what I'm after - the window placement/style, cupola size, overhangs, etc. are all details that I may leave to others more knowledgeable, or might have to move based on framing placement.

This will give me a second floor for storage / lumber, a possibly a living area to use while the house is being built.

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In the second pic, the horizontal dotted lines show my interpretation of where an 18" truss (or glulam, or??) thick floor for the second floor will be. Might not require that thickness, and if not, i would lower the center raised portion so that the window heights would be similar to what I show now.

I show one side roof extended 12'+ that will be outside storage. Under that, I will park my trailer, and, possibly also park a portable bandmill. 60' should be long enough for that. That open side would face west. I don't show any entrance door yet. I would probably have a rollup insulated door inside the 10' x 10' sliding door opens on the south and north sides too.

I guess it looks a bit like a barn. Bottom story has a 12' ceiling. Doing hammer beam trusses on the second floor would be awesome.

I'm thinking of just using wood horizontal lap siding. It should last 50 years+.

[Jim Andrew]

I like your plan. Always thought a barn would make a cool shop. By the time you build that thing, and finish the upstairs for living quarters, I'd probably quit as I'd have spent enough money.

[Brad Morse]

I'm not sure if you're still planning on going timber frame with your current plan. My shop is similar in general form (I attached some pics from last year). I'm a professional timber framer and GC, and I design them as well. I'd have to say that you could perhaps make what you drew work, but it would be difficult. There are 2 easy solutions to maintain the overall form, but it make it work structurally. One is to extend posts from the main, high part of the shop down to the floor. The sheds then would sit on ledgers attached to the posts. That's how my shop is built, with a 30' wide timber frame core, and 11' wide sheds on either side. The other way is make it more like a monitor barn, and have that high part of the shop be only maybe 8' wide. Also I have part of my shop that is clear span (for cutting timbers) and part that is an old barn frame with interior posts. There's a lot of room between those posts for machinery and moving wood around. Forty foot clear span is no joke for a very simple frame, nevermind using the upstairs for storage, and having a second roof system sit on top.

[Todd Burch]

Hi Brad - thanks for the information. How do I see more of your work?

If I understand you correctly, a 40 foot span is more difficult with a timer frame, and putting a second floor on top of that, with a heavy live load requirement, is even more difficult. Correct?

The span for the 2nd floor would be 20' or so. Perhaps I could use TF trusses up there? I think a hybrid approach could be fine - might even save me some $$ too. ??

Could I do TF posts for the first floor, glulams (or site built) beams across the posts, then typical I-beam style trusses for the first floor ceiling / second floor floor, then TF posts for the second floor and finally TF trusses? Is this too much a kludge? Would I get more clear span and spend less? My current shop (with is a sub-area of a 1200 sf garage, is just under 600 sf laid out in 20' x 30'. A 20' x 30' clear span is plenty in my current setup - no need to improve on this. I supposed ~20' x ~20' sections would work well enough too.

I'm considering using a perimeter beam foundation, plus piers or additional beams where needed. (Being able to store lumber underneath the first floor, on a (dare I say this...) slab basement/crawl space floor) would be nice, and then the live load for the second floor would be significantly reduced.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

Todd, the 21' spans in my shop building are built with 12" engineered joists 16" OC. You'd likely need the equivalent load bearing capability for however you choose to build. Even if this is DIY, get everything reviewed by a structural engineer... ;)

[Brad Morse]

Todd,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

"If I understand you correctly, a 40 foot span is more difficult with a timer frame, and putting a second floor on top of that, with a heavy live load requirement, is even more difficult. Correct? "

Yup, exactly. You can do it sure, but it's a little much, and probably isn't necessary with a slightly different design. You can span 40' or much more with a timber frame, as many churches and buildings are. And you can put some load on that truss, but probably not all of your lumber storage. Nevermind putting a roof load in the middle of the span.

Gluelams may very well help you out, and you can get some pretty nice ones. But again, you may be able to avoid a lot of complications with a different design scheme.

You can see some of my work at www.uncarvedblockinc.com (which really needs to be updated with some new projects), or through Facebook.

Brad

[Todd Burch]

How does one determine an estimate for live load for a shop floor or 2nd floor lumber storage?

For the shop floor, I have one particular machines that weighs 1200 pounds (Felder AD751) and has a footprint of about 6 square feet. So, that's 200/lbs per sf. Right?

A stickered stack (1" lumber, with 1" stickers) of oak lumber, 4' wide, 12' long, 5' high, seasoned dry, will weigh ~5,640 lbs, with a footprint of 48 sf, that's 117.5 lbs/sf. Is that right?

(Oak weight: @ 47 lbs/cubic foot per this: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/weigt-wood-d_821.html )

Thanks, Todd

[Jim Andrew]

If you are using the manufactured beams and I joists, the company that supplies the material will do the load and recommend the proper beams and joists. You have to submit plans, but they offer that service. Talk to your supplier.

[Carl Beckett]

Beautiful work Brad! Thanks for sharing!

[Todd Burch]

Well, it doesn't look like I'll be having a timberframe, not that I don't want to. If I win the lottery in the next couple weeks, that might change. In the meantime, I'm back to planning a stick-built shop. Perhaps I'll appoint it with some decorative timbers later on to get the feel of a timber frame.

I'm still planning my new digs. I had a thought that instead of building a 1664+/- sf shop and a 975+/- sf garage, to build one larger structure to combine the garage and workshop. I've checked with a couple people and a both agreed that 1 building would be less expensive than 2 separate buildings. What say you?

However, with a combined building, the majority of the workshop would either need to be on the 2nd floor, or, it would have to be one much bigger 1-story structure. I do have a large enough lot to have everything on 1 floor, but that would be a pretty good sized bldg.

1664+975 = 2639, so for a (golden section shaped) building that big, it would be roughly 40.5 x 66. Which, I guess, in the scheme of things, isn't so huge after all. Here's one of my original drawings, stretched out 6' to be 40 X 66, and I think it might work. I've shown it from the underneath to show roughly how it would be partitioned. The front garage would be the 40.5' wide x 24' deep, and the back shop would be 40.5 X 42. I would also have the raised center section, of 66' x 18' or so. A ton of storage room.

[Jim Becker]

I like that design, Todd...and it has a style that should look attractive and interesting that is hard to have with the typical "box" building. The shed-row roof is an excellent idea, too.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Funny, I was just coming here to post a timber frame shop idea and you beat me to it. Your barn is my dream shop. I have much less funds than you and I found one already designed that works well for me. It has a low hip roof which is good for here in hurricane alley.

http://www.davisframe.com/timber-frame-post-beam-pictures-photos/Custom-Design-Galleries/Japanese-Tea-House-Timber-Frame-Gallery.aspx

Here is something I did up, adding a shed roof to one side for storage and for a place to have batteries for a solar system. The view to the S and E are ocean and island views, hence all the windows. I want to stand there doing handwork while looking at the ocean.

[Val Kosmider]

I have some family that built a timber frame house. In order to get started, they built a three car garage with an overhead apartment. It gave them housing, a place to keep their cars, and a place to work while the house was coming together. Now thery have a nice guest apartment, and a great place for a worshop.

They did a LOT of the work themselves after having a TF company do the shell and the close in work. Once you are dried in, time no longer becomes so pressing, especially when you have the apartment in which to live, and a dry place in which to work.

I don't know the exact costs, but their project was modest in scope and probably costs about 125% of what a comparable stick frame building would cost. I think in the end they are very happy with the results, and the additional cost was more than worth it.

They are quite handy and resourceful, but cutting, milling drying and then 'working' the timbers themselves was never a serious option. Mostly the cost to do it all yourself is overwhelming, and the number of years involved was just too long a time frame for them to consider.

[Todd Burch]

It's been 15 months since I started this thread, and I don't feel any closer to getting this done, but I know I am.

The focus for the last several months has been on a new house. We sold our house back in April 2013, and have moved to the country and are renting. Renting is getting old quick. We're narrowing down our list of choices to two or three builders for a house. It will look like a farmhouse, with big front and rear porches. We decided we will go with the original plan and split the garage and shop into 2 separate buildings instead of building one larger building. It will fit the property better, be better for our views and create more privacy.

I have gone through so many iterations of options (for house and garage and shop) my head has about spun off. It seems that having both the garage and shop built is going to cost about $100K combined. Last quote I got on the garage (25' x 39', slab on grade, two 9X9 openings on the front gable, and one 10X10 opening on the rear of the left side, metal roof, open stud walls and hardi siding to match the house) was about $47/sf.

I also got a quote from Country Carpenters, up in CT for one of their Timber Frame barn kits. This kit, 26' x 36', decked out with windows, transoms, cupola and doors, delivered, would run just under $47K if ordered by the end of of year. I would still have to add costs for a slab and roof, plus erection costs and electrical. It would be timber frame though. ;) http://www.countrycarpenters.com/a12.htm

I did contact Morton, to get a feel for the cost of a pair of matching buildings for the shop and garage. The steepest pitch they have for a roof is 8/12, and with that option, for both buildings, I'm looking at just about $100K there too, and I would still have to build the 2nd floor in the shop, and cover the inside of the shop with walls to hide wiring and cut down on the noise of a metal building bouncing sound everywhere.

Decisions, decisions.

[Rich Konopka]

Todd,

Thanks for sharing the information. Does the Country Carpenter plan Include / allow for SIP's? We are just finishing up renovating our new home we bought and its time to build a new shop. The Mrs. really likes the idea of the Timber frame as opposed to Stick built. Based on your numbers would you estimate that with stick frame vs. KIT the price differential is approximately 25%?

[Todd Burch]

Hi Rich. I don't have complete numbers, but my gut feel is that the price difference to get the stick framed structure to the same completion point of the Country Carpenter's model is about 40-50% more for the kit. You have add assembly/erection costs to that kit price. Your slab would be the same, roof the same, and then all interior bits (insulation, wiring, plumbing, yada, yada, yada) would be the same cost for either option.

Now, as a percentage of the whole project, perhaps the overall difference would be closer to 25-30%.

Todd

[Todd Burch]

Well, if you open the dictionary, and flip through and find "indecisive", you'll find a picture of me.

I'm back on the timber frame pursuit. I have a question about insulation, and a term that is not used much around here, called "wrap and strap".

Here's the building I'm thinking about. 42' x 42'. 12' first floor. 12/12 pitch. 3' knee wall.

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I've drawn a cut-away section of what I'm interpreting a "wrap and strap" system might look like.

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Has anyone done a wrap and strap? Am I close?

The one concern I have right now is that, as drawn, the vertical siding touches the edge of my curb, and my PT 2X4 only sits about 1/2 way on top of the PT 2x12 sill.

I've got a line on some recycled polyiso rigid foam, 3.5" thick, 4' x 4'. To get enough to do the whole building and roof would run about $4500. Does this sound good?

Thanks, Todd

[Chris Padilla]

Maybe this is too simplistic a solution but why not adjust things so your vertical siding is beyond the curb? You know, sort of out in free space.

[Todd Burch]

I worked out the overhang issue… I think.

Here's a video that shows more details worked out.

http://youtu.be/jNdipEU3xoo

Thanks for any comments and suggestions for improvements or alternate methods.

Todd

[Bob Cooper]

Todd...are you working with a timberframe supplier? They deal with this stuff daily i'd think and would be able to give you some good feedback. For my TF i just did normal stick construction outside of the TF and held the stud walls off the TF by 3/4" so that i could slide drywall against the studs but behind the TF posts/beams. Doesn't sound like the look though that you're after. The advantage of the approach i took is, to a normal framer most everything was what they were used to.

The other approach which is a little closer to what you're doing is the SIP panel route...but i'm sure you know how pricey they are.

[Todd Burch]

I am working with a TF supplier, but they just do the frames and erection. No build-out once the frame is up.

[Todd Burch]

TF company confirmed I got the wrap and strap correct.

[Todd Burch]

Well, for a while I didn't think it would happen, but today I'm making a purchase in the first step of actually building a TF workshop. WOO-HOO!!

The above questions about "wrap and strap" came up as I was researching how I would insulate this shop. While researching rigid foam insulation, I happened across a deal too good to pass up for insulation for the shop.

First, I attempted to price brand new rigid foam insulation. The big box stores near me sell the 1/2" thick (1/2" thick 4'x8' sheets), but I was looking for 3.5" thick stuff, and no one near me carries it. After a week of trying, (and I'm still trying, so I can do a true cost comparison), still no success. I did finally hear back from a local building supply house, although, I have no faith in their quote, and they didn't even manage to quote the exact specs I gave them. I asked about pricing for a sheet of 4' x 4' x 3.5" polyiso (assuming a volume purchase). After 3 days, they called back and told me that one sheet would cost $88.85. That would be believable if he was talking about a pallet with 13 sheets, but for one sheet, (I tried to confirm he was telling me 13 sheets and not 1, but he insisted the $88.85 was indeed a single sheet), it would cost upwards of $30K to insulate the shop. He's got to be confused.

The deal I found is on a load of once used, reclaimed insulation. Buying used rigid insulation seems to be the new thing to do. I found, and I'm buying, a tractor trailer load of used polyiso rigid insulation, delivered, for just over $5200. There is approximately 9000sf of this stuff (way more than I need) on pallets, and about 1/2 of it is new and never used, still in the factory shrink wrap packaging of what I'm primarily looking for (4'X4'X3.5"). It's all foil-faced both sides too. Based on the inventory I got from the salesman, I calculated the volume to be roughly an 8' wide, 8' tall and 35' long stack of the stuff. My dad went and inspected it before I committed to the purchase, and his impression, based on what he saw, was that the volume was twice what I calculated... but we'll see. If so, even sweeter. The load is a mix of 3.5", 3", 2.5", 2" and 1" material. Except for the new 4'x4' stuff, all the other thicknesses are 4'x8' sheets in various quantities -and mostly of the thicker varieties.

Based on an LTTR (long term thermal rating) rating of R5.8 to R6 per inch, and I am supposing this stuff has already settled out, I will have just over R20 in the walls and over R40 in the ceiling, not counting the 2X T&G wall siding and any sheetings that make of the wall or roof sandwich. I don't know if this would qualify for "super insulated" (I think it might in my part of Texas), but I will be "super satisfied" with it.

It will be delivered early next week. Pictures to follow.

TF, here we come. :D

[Tom Scott]

Todd,
I have to agree with Bob's approach on this with the conventional stick framing on the exterior of the TF. I think your scheme is making it harder than it needs to be, besides not really having a load path with structural members. I can send a sketch of what I'm thinking, but would suggest putting the rigid insulation between vertical studs. To cut down how much you have to cut the rigid, studs can likely be spaced out at least 24" on center since they aren't load-bearing (they still have to resist the wind load, though).
Does the TF company suggest how the posts are anchored to the foundation?

[Todd Burch]

Hi Tom. The TF company, when I get that far, will exactly specify how to design the foundation for the structure, and how the posts attach to it. I believe this company uses straps set into the concrete, and the straps lag into the not-seen sides of the posts. There will be some (3) interior posts, and I'm not certain how they are anchored. I've seen the system that Texas Timber Frame uses, where welded up metal block assemblies are set into the slab and the protruding parts act as tenons into mortises in the bottoms of the posts, and then the posts are drilled horizontally at the proper height and a stainless rod is placed through the post and metal tenon, (the tenon is pinned), with plenty of relish, and then the hole in the post is plugged. It's a very nice system. Totally hidden and would resist up-pull as well as a horizontal shock as well.

I'm not getting how conventional stick framing outside of the TF structure would be a better approach for me than a wrap and strap. Perhaps if I were hiring a typical framing crew to dry it in, it would be a better choice. Conventional framing would certainly be a larger expense due to the quantity of lumber required, and there would be substantial more effort in cutting up this rigid insulation to fit where bat fiberglass typically goes. There would be many, many more thermal breaks doing it that way.

I don't understand what you mean by "load path with structural members" either. Please clarify.

I do agree, that for running any plumbing (for air or water) and wires, conventional framing is the easy choice. There are, however, approaches to wiring and plumbing that can be taken, obviously, and I need to figure out the approach, or approaches, I want to take.

[Jim Becker]

I like what you're doing, Todd. What a great project!

[Tom Scott]

I will preface this by saying that I'm not as familiar with the wrap and strap method, so feel free to totally dismiss the following comments:

- As framed, the horizontal 2x6 T&G members on the inside are your main structural members for wind loads, and they are spanning between your TF bents. I don't know what that span is, but seems like quite far for flat boards to span. Other examples I've seen had the interior T&G spanning vertically.
- The 1 horizontal 2x4 at the top of your window ends up taking 1/2 of the wind for that wall as you currently have it framed. Those should at least span from the foundation to the ceiling beam to avoid that condition.
- You have to assume that water will get behind your siding at some point, and thus need an air space so that it can dry out and not rot. Having only horizontal straps directly against the rigid insulation will trap the water instead of allowing it to drain out the bottom. It also does not allow for air flow within the wall.
- I have read that the wrap and strap method uses less lumber, but with continuous 2x6's framing the interior of the wall I find that hard to believe. Could be, though, as I haven't checked the numbers. If you were OK with gyp board, plywood, OSB or even 1x6 on the interior, then that would be a bigger case for traditional stick framing. Since these studs are only resisting wind load and not roof or other gravity loads, they can be spaced out greater than the traditional 16" on center.

I don't want to poo poo on your plans if you've already got it figured out. This looks like a great project and one that I've wanted to do, so I'm jealous.
Keep us updated on the progress. I will be anxiously watching.

Tom

[Todd Burch]

The gable ends will probably be 10' on center (if I opt to center the big door), or, they might be 15' on center if I move the door to either side of the opening. The long side bents will 14' on center.

I was thinking the TF itself would be my main structural "member" for resisting wind loads?

For purposes of comparing wrap and strap versus traditional framing, I'm not sure you can consider my choice for an interior wall covering. It so happens, my choice doubles as both an interior surface, and an anchor point for the insulating and exterior layers. When I compare W&S versus traditional framing, I'm looking at the quantity of framing materials, and the permeability of the insulating layer, along with insulation value and the time-vs-labor equation I have to consider (I have more time vs $ to pay for others labor).

The look and feel I want is interior horizontal wood walls. While 1X6 T&G would give me the look I want, I am opting 2X6 material for 2 reasons.
1 - as a thick enough surface to nail tar paper to and a thick enough surface to screw rigid foam and "strap" boards to, and
2 - to have a thick enough surface to screw cabinets and other items to from the interior.

1X material for the latter would certainly work for most of my cabinet (or other item) hanging needs, so option 1 is the primary motivator. If anyone has ideas for saving $ going with 1X interior materials, and still providing a cost effective option for hanging the rest of the exterior on to, I would love to hear it. (I haven't done the cost comparison for vertical studs walls with 1X boards, versus 2X6 T&G.)

I'll be ordering 2X6 T&G material for the upstairs flooring and roof decking, so the walls are just more of it. I mean, who wants roofing nails and screws coming down through into the interior to spoil the look? ;)

I agree I need an air gap. The 1X4 strapping would give me that, but it's laying flat and would not promote top-to-bottom air (or water) flow. Perhaps the solution here is putting the strapping on at a 45 degree angle? Need to check into this option.

I would think I could even use 2X4's in a vertical framing (traditional) manner, even on 4' centers, since the rigid foam will assist in the support of the top plate. As I have it drawn now, I'm essentially doing this anyway, just on the horizontal and not vertical. Vertical studs might be better, since the siding will be hanging on it. I would think the foam would participate quite up a bit on either vertical or horizontal framing, but I'm not an engineer either.

Good discussion. Making me think through this.

[Tom Scott]

Yes, your timber frame structure will be designed for overall stability to resist wind loads, but your wall system has to get the load to the frame. When the wind hits your building, the first thing that is affected is the cladding. From there it has to get to the TF structure, thus the wall system has to span and distribute the load to the frame. It won't be required to support gravity loads or to act as a lateral shear wall, though.
Insulation is obviously a big concern for you, and that is not my specialty so I don't want to steer you away from the efficiency you are seeking. The key is getting all the systems to work together the best way possible and I think you are on the right track. At least you are thinking about it all now.

[Jim Andrew]

It would be cool if you could post pics of the project. I like the idea of the foam insulation, have seen stories of similar foam filled walls and they said they have no gaps so it keeps the building from burning down if you have a short in your wiring, as it keeps air out of the wall. I'd be tempted to use 30 lb felt for housewrap, to minimize any leaks from siding. I took down a church a couple years ago, and the lap siding leaked to the point the boxing was all warped. It had plain paper between siding and boxing. There was a section that had 30 lb felt between, and the boxing was like new.

[Todd Burch]

It would be cool if you could post pics of the project....

You mean like, what I've been doing? :rolleyes:

I'm 1/2 way around the planet right now, but the insulation was delivered yesterday.

287376

[Todd Burch]

A few issues with the insulation, but the used-insulation-broker says he's going to make it good.

Paperwork started to get this project officially underway…

[Todd Burch]

This post is about loft doors. Not sure what to do here. I've been playing around with a design that might work. Opinions solicited.

The loft door openings in the shop will be 4' x 7'. There will be 2 doors per opening. The doors would open to the interior.

The door openings would be framed with 2X8 material. At the bottom, the exterior sill will be angled at about 15 degrees down.

My door design starts with a box frame out of 3/4" material. Basically, 1X4s joined well at the corners to create a frame 2' wide x 7' tall. That frame would be filled with 3.5" rigid foam.

On both sides of this frame, it would get covered with 1X6 T&G pine, nailed and poly-glued to the frame.

289453

I would apply some fake strap hinges to the exterior. As high as these are, I suppose I could even cut them out from 1/4" pine and paint them black. I don't show a piece of vertical moulding nailed to one of the doors to keep driving rain from entering where the doors meet, but it would be there. I would also have to bevel back one of the door inside edges so the swing would work out properly and not bind or rub. 5 degrees I believe.

289454

The interior would just be utility grade strap hinges. I don't show any hardware, but it would probably just be a screen door handle one one door and a katy bar across both.

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I also didn't take the time when drawing to allow for side-to-side clearance. I did leave 1/4" between door casing and the top and bottom of the doors.

I think they would be pretty cheap to build and be adequate. What do you think?

Todd

(I've attached the .skp file too)

[Jamie Buxton]

This post is about loft doors. Not sure what to do here. I've been playing around with a design that might work. Opinions solicited.

The loft door openings in the shop will be 4' x 7'. There will be 2 doors per opening. The doors would open to the interior.

The door openings would be framed with 2X8 material. At the bottom, the exterior sill will be angled at about 15 degrees down.

My door design starts with a box frame out of 3/4" material. Basically, 1X4s joined well at the corners to create a frame 2' wide x 7' tall. That frame would be filled with 3.5" rigid foam.



So the rigid foam is wedged tightly inside the frame? That is, the foam is structural: it resists the urge of the rectangular frame to wrack into a parallelogram.

[Todd Burch]

Hi Jamie. Yes, as much as it can. However, if you have another idea for anti-wracking, I'm certain it would be cheap insurance to add.

[Jamie Buxton]

Hi Jamie. Yes, as much as it can. However, if you have another idea for anti-wracking, I'm certain it would be cheap insurance to add.

You could skin the front and back of the frame with plywood, and put the show lumber on after the ply. 1/8" ply will do the job. If you don't want to see the edge of the plywood, rabbet the frame so the ply sits flush. Staples and glue.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'd probably reinforce the frame where I think the door hinges are going to go. I'd glue another layer of one-by inside the frame, so I get 1 1/2" of thickness for the hinge screws to grab into. And actually it will be a little less than 1 1/2", because you're likely going to mortise the hinges into the frame.

[Todd Burch]

That's a good idea about the 1/8 ply. I also have some 3" rigid foam, so I could easily rabbet the frame to hide the ply.

I also considered running a fine line of glue between each T&G plank to cut down on vertical slippage.

And, good catch, I had also considered installing an additional cleat inside the door to provide more grab for hardware. Thanks Jamie.

[Todd Burch]

Details are coming together. I need a good solution for my large (9' x 9') door openings. I was going to do sliders, but I'm not sure how to seal the doors for both AC/Heat and from critters. I'm thinking I might do a larger version of the swinging loft doors, and scale them up from 2' x 7' to 4.5' x 9'. Thoughts?

Also, lighting. Anyone got any recommendations for lighting a TF? I'll have a 12' first floor ceiling and open trusses in the loft. I'm thinking T8 fixtures, 10' high, on chains.

Todd

[Jamie Buxton]

..I'm thinking I might do a larger version of the swinging loft doors, and scale them up from 2' x 7' to 4.5' x 9'. Thoughts?

Look around for swinging doors that big. I mostly see them in retail and commercial settings. They're almost never hung from hinges that hook to the door jamb. I suspect that the big doors are heavy enough that they rip out the hinge screws. Instead, those big doors use things called pivot hinges. They carry the weight of the door directly down to a pivot on the floor. Rixson is the big dog in these hinges. http://www.rixson.com/

[Jamie Buxton]

I need a good solution for my large (9' x 9') door openings. I was going to do sliders, but I'm not sure how to seal the doors for both AC/Heat and from critters.

I did some thinking about weather-tight sliders for a wood shop...

Consider the standard sliding barn door. It needs to slide along the face of the building, so it has to hang with some gap between itself and the building. That gap is bad for sealing. So.. Mount the track higher on the building. Put a panel on top of the door, connecting up to the trucks on the rail. Hinge the panel at the top and the bottom. The door still hangs with a gap to the building. However, because of the hinged panel, the door can be pushed flat to the wall. That's key. Put weatherstripping or gasket on the inside face of the door. Now invent some clean way to pull the door to the building from the inside, and latch it there. I'm thinking some big version of a DeStaco clamp maybe.

Issues...I don't have a plan to open the door from the outside. There would still need to be a people-sized door to get inside to open the big door. That's not bad for a shop. It is probably not good enough for a home.

[Russ Webb]

I just built a shop with a similar aesthetic to yours. Because of code, earthquake issues, etc. it was not possible to do a timber frame so I did as close as I could get (post and beam with some mortise and tenon joinery done to satisfy me and no one else) wrapped with MDO plywood and 5.5" of foil-faced polyurethane foam SIPS. The walls have 2"x4" french cleats mortised into the posts which are 4' OC so I can hang my saw till, plane till, etc. wherever I want.

For a solution on doors I chose to do carriage doors for the 9'x8'3" "garage doors". Mine were constructed with LVL interior frames with white oak 5/4 frames on the exterior and 5.5" polyurethane foam (which is what I used to insulate the walls - R42) and skinned with 1/4" plywood to create a SIP. They are similar to an approach taken by Anatole Burkin of Fine Woodworking but a bit more robust to meet my needs and the aesthetic of my particular shop.

I used three 5"x8" ball bearing hinges per door capable of carrying much more than the 350lbs each of my doors weighed. The doors are 8'3" x 54". Here's what things look like. The pic of the overall shop was taken in early summer and the pics of the doors were taken in spring before siding, window installation, etc.

I used conventional weatherstripping inset into the frame. They seal up nicely and provide great insulation for my climate. Since the picture was taken I've installed triple pane low e argon filled windows in each door. They swing with the push of one finger (after breaking the weather stripping seal) and achieve everything I intended and need. The handles are hand made of oak.

The carriage door approach fits nicely with my overall aesthetic and use. My shop is technically a "garage" according to municipal code and the second story is "storage" though it will house my office, gun room, etc.

Like you I wanted to do a timber frame but it was simply not feasible in my location (at least for my budget and I've got over $200K into my shop as it is.) I've settled for a post and beam structure of # 1 Douglas Fir with 6"x 6" posts and 6"x14 inch beams and rafters.I have R42 walls, R68 roof and the foundation is R40 ICFs with an additional R10 foam on the exterior of the ICFs. The shop is heated with a wall-hung Navien boiler supporting the in-floor radiant heat and also supplying on-demand domestic hot water for the shower, etc. It fits my climate well and is energy efficient. It's not that big but fits on my lot and was something I did myself so I get satisfaction every time I walk into it.

[Todd Burch]

Well, to put this thread to bed… we just bought a house with an existing workshop and I won't be building this timber frame shop. It's killing me, but I'll get over it. I was going to use Ward Timber Frames out of New Hampshire - they really seemed like great folk. I'm bummed, but life goes on.

Todd

[Chris Padilla]

BBQ sauce will help with the foam board....

[Todd Burch]

Yeah, I got a lot of foam board to move. Or use. Wrestling with that too.

[Todd Burch]

Well, you know how something gets in your craw, and it just keeps eating at you, and you can't get over it? Well, that's me. I'm back on this. Or at least back on a timber frame workshop. Just call me YoYo or roller coaster.

My plan is to downsize all the extra tools and such I have collected over the years, and raise $20K to buy a personal sawmill and related equipment. $20K might not buy it all, but it will be a start, and my workshop will sure feel better without having to step over stuff every time I walk through it. (Note all my recent classified ads… I ain't even at the tip of the downsizing iceberg yet.)

Once the sawmill is acquired, and I do a bit of learnin' on it, I'll start cutting timbers. I have several plans I've been toying with in SU.

Right now, the decision is between a band mill ($) and a swing blade ($$$$).

In the band mill camp is a EZ Boardwalk Jr. so far.
In the swing blade camp is a Brand X, D&L, or perhaps a Peterson. 10" model.

In the equipment camp is a LogRite Arch and a 4WD tractor with a loader.

Stay tuned, if you care to follow. ;)

YoYo.

[Mike Heidrick]

Did you consider a skidsteer?

[Todd Burch]

I have access to a Skid steer. New Holland 183 I think is the model. Also have access to a 40HP Boomer and a 100 HP Kubota - both 4wd, and both have loaders. But, I don't want to wear out my welcome borrowing them all the time. They are about 6-7 miles away, one way, and the skid steer isn't coming over without a $100 trailer rental involved.

[Jim Becker]

Keep in mind that one thing you need to deal with is the weight factor in material handling if you're going to start milling your own. Logs are heavier than one might think at first (especially green) and without a hydraulic system on the mill, you have to be able to safely lift/move/position/re-position the logs on/off the machine manually. That's going to require a beefy tractor or skid steer to get the lifting capacity you'll want/need. You might want to balance that and the cost of a quality mill with what it would cost to subcontract the cutting to someone who already has a hydraulic equipped mill...

IE...check ALL the angles to solve this riddle!

[Mike Heidrick]

What kind of tractor are you thinking will do this?

[Todd Burch]

Just about any kind of tractor, I suppose.

I suspect more timber frames were put up without tractors than with tractors. ;)

I have more time (God willing) than $, so I can sit back and think about how to I want to approach all aspects of this. Lots of options other than tractors to move and lift. Gin poles, derricks… blocks and tackle, levers, probably others. Maybe even a large treadwheel pulley… now THAT would be a hoot! People would work for free just for the fun of doing it.

[John K Jordan]

Right now, the decision is between a band mill ($) and a swing blade ($$$$).




Quite interesting thread. I didn't finish all of it but will later. I live in a timber frame house (on 27 acres) that someone else built around 1988 - I love it. As i sit here I glance up at 6x6 joists supported by an 8x12 beam supported by 8x8 posts on either end of the room. Life is good!

A friend of mine wanted to build one like you - very long story short he finally got it done with timbers dredged out of one of the great lakes and with a few cherry logs from his property high across the great room. Looks great! Although he wanted to do it all himself, he hired a crew from somewhere in the northeast - it went up very quickly. However, the conventional and trim and finishing took years... It looks like something from a magazine now, inside and out!

As for the sawmill, years ago I bought one of the smaller Woodmizer manual mills (LT15), not for timber frame but for general farm use. The manual mills are FAR cheaper than the powered mills but will cut the same timber. You basically crank or gently push the carriage while walking down the length. (Good exercise!) The tradeoff is time - it will take longer with the manual mill but I had more time than money.

There is no tradeoff in timber length - I added one extra track section and can cut 17' logs. For longer, add another section.

The real limitation for me is the size of the log. Mine will supposedly slice up a 28" diameter log BUT the process for that size is very tricky. Worse, the handling of big logs is a real test. I usually load logs with 30" skidding tongs hung from hooks welded to the FEL bucket of the tractor. My Kubota will not lift all the logs I want to mill. I got around that in two ways - first I built up a ramp and rolled the logs onto the mill, pushing with my tractor. Second, I bought a used skid-steer (John Deer) which can lift a far heavier log.

Even after the log is loaded, the fun continues. The hydraulic ($$$) mills will grab and turn the cant but I turn large cants by hand or with tractor assist. I've had some that took two people to turn.

Swing vs band? I couldn't even consider a swing mill ($$$) but I understand it is amazing for dimensional lumber, and no practical log diameter limitation. I assume it will work for beams and such, but don't know. I do know I can easily cut any size beam I could possibly use with my little Woodmizer. The 15 hp gas engine on my mill will slice anything I've tried, big oak, hickory, persimmon, pine.

Bottom line, a manual mill will do the job at much less cost but more time and effort. Once the job is done, it is wonderful to have around for even occasional use. I imagine to justify keeping a big hydraulic mill one would have to be either rich or go into the sawing business. Neither for me!

JKJ

[Todd Burch]

Thanks for the encouraging post John. There are warm fuzzies ALL OVER your post! Good wisdom too.

Todd

[Todd Burch]

...
My plan is to downsize all the extra tools and such I have collected over the years, and raise $20K to buy a personal sawmill and related equipment. $20K might not buy it all, but it will be a start, and my workshop will sure feel better without having to step over stuff every time I walk through it.

Progress report… after about 1.5 weeks, I'm just about at 10% of my goal, and I can't tell anything has let the shop yet. ;)

[Tom Hyde]

Hi Todd,

I'm probably one of the few who can say "been there, done that" ....

Great, great advice and insight (and first time I've heard of some of those issues with SIPs). I came close to doing the same, even had an architect with a timber frame company draw the plans and an engineer stamp them, and, like Todd, got a $100,000 quote for just the frame as well. But in the end I thought better of it and built a very nice small stick-built house. And no, not all the baseboards are in yet. I also built a decent shop. And a 500 square foot cedar pergola/grape arbor ... All for less than the cost of the original house design (including the Euro workshop tools). Okay, let's be honest, I'm still working on the grape arbor.

What changed my mind? I decided to tackle the Jack Sobon shed first (and I've seen the finished one at the Shaker Village). Amazing what a kick in the aft reality check that "simple" little project was. Even went Neanderthal on quite a bit of it. That convinced me that a full house was well beyond my means, skill and patience. Nothing but respect for those who have built their own timber frame home or shop because I have some small insight into what that actually means.

[Val Kosmider]

Thank you for hanging a number on the proposed building. I was thinking that the 2400 square foot "shop" was going to run about $200,000 as pictured, and could easily run up towards $300,000 at $125 finished foot when he talked about adding "some living space". I have always thought that P&B and Log Construction ran about 25% more costly that traditional stick built, and yet people seem to gravitate toward it as a "way to save money." Hmmm....????

This is an old thread...and for perhaps obvious reasons, it died under the weight of the OP's budget.

[Todd Burch]

Thread is old, but not dead. Like me.

[Tom Hyde]

Whoops, how did I do that?!? Look twice, post once.

[Todd Burch]

Well, many tools have been sold, and I still can't walk around in my shop. Methinks I have more selling to do. But, the good news is that the sawmill has been purchased, and even operated for a test drive, and now I'm planning my construction timeline. Timeline is pretty simple right now:

1) Get plans for a pole, stick or metal building in the 1500-2400 sq ft range to house the mill, the cut timbers, and build it on the cheap.
2) Gets plans for a timber frame, and build it on the cheap.

I would like to complete #1 before spring 2016. After timber frame is done, #1 building will perform multiple duties as a spray finishing area, project assembly area, storage area, service area for machines/tractors, etc.

[Mike Heidrick]

Are you thinking insulated pole barn with concrete floor or just steel and gravel?

[Chris Padilla]

Still chugging along with this, Todd!! Cool. Maybe one day it will actually happen, eh? :D LOL

[Ian Moone]

Great idea!.
Have done similar within my life time and considering doing it again (Eldest lad).
At 56 I ain't looking forward to the hard graft (Again).

One thing you MAY have to consider depending where you build and the supervising local govt authority (Building inspector / engineer) is that I THINK these days you won't pass muster unless your timber is professionally structurally graded & stamped accordingly.

Worked 20 odd years with my late Father who was a master builder. WE would build out of green hardwood... a long established practice & had a portable mill (and kiln & timber factory etc) but I don't know that we could repeat what we did, building the factory for e.g. because unless your qualified and registered etc for structural grading of lumber - how do you get your own lumber graded and stamped so the building inspector can see it when he inspects the construction?

It's the age old story with red tape & bureaucracy these days - that if you don't get all the permits and inspections etc and every square is ticked - you can't secure a mortgage over the dwelling at the bank and so on and so forth.

Its just a little harder these days to 'self build' in some respects.

Again this may depend on the location and how stringent the local authorities are.

[Bob Cooper]

From my very limited experience you may not have to have the timberframe stamped. I really worried about this when I built my house. I bought the TF from a big TF company and discussed this with them and they said it is typically not needed. I also used about 10 12x12 oak posts from the property and the inspector never asked. Ask around though in your area

[Todd Burch]

Are you thinking insulated pole barn with concrete floor or just steel and gravel?

Concrete floor, no insulation. I've been doing more research on metal buildings. They seem to be inexpensive up front, but in the long run, perhaps more expensive. One thing that you are doing is finishing out the inside of your building (to the max!). If I were to be doing that too, I might go with metal. But, since I really am just looking for a shell, I'm really leaning towards a wood building. I don't want the condensation or noise issues of a metal shell.


Still chugging along with this, Todd!! Cool. Maybe one day it will actually happen, eh? :D LOL

Slow but steady… I'll get there. ;)



One thing you MAY have to consider depending where you build and the supervising local govt authority (Building inspector / engineer) is that I THINK these days you won't pass muster unless your timber is professionally structurally graded & stamped accordingly….


Where I am, no building inspector, no code, no authorities over my shoulder. Life is good in the country.


From my very limited experience you may not have to have the timberframe stamped. I really worried about this when I built my house. I bought the TF from a big TF company and discussed this with them and they said it is typically not needed. I also used about 10 12x12 oak posts from the property and the inspector never asked. Ask around though in your area

No stamping required. You really went big on your posts! I guess the motto could be… when in doubt - go big!!

[Mike Heidrick]

I had it unheated or cooled this whole past year and had no condensation issues. The building was bubble wrapped is all. I get noise really only when it rains. Just an idea. Added $500 to the cost for 40X64X16 wrapped. If you want just a shell I think that is where the steel does excel.

As to the concrete - add a few hundred and at least put in pex in the concrete. You may not want to heat it today but it will be there if you ever do. blueridgecompany sells pole barn kits of pex and a manifold and the ties and a tool.

Just some ideas.

[mark kosse]

Mike, That may be necessary in IL but we don't need no stinking heat here in TX. We bring our own. It was 99 here on Monday, Oct 12.