Shoe Molding Dilemma

[Brett Bobo]

With a recent install of engineered wood floors both upstairs (nail down) and downstairs (glue down), I'm redoing all of the trim work. I'm finding that the gap between the top of the floor and the bottom of the base is at most 1/2". I'm seeing the largest gaps where I have the longest runs, typically over 16'. With the shoe molding being 3/4" tall, there's not enough room for nailing the shoe molding to the base or at least not without running the risk of splitting the shoe molding. Therefore, my only option appears to be nailing the shoe molding directly to the floor. I realize it's best to allow the floor to expand and contract, although I'm not sure how much of a factor that is with an engineered floor, particularly a glue down.

What options do I have? Any forseeable issues with nailing the shoe molding to the floor?

Thanks in advance,
Brett

[Joseph Tarantino]

remove and reset the baseboards. they should have been removed before the flooring was installed.

[Jason Roehl]

Let me ask you this. Do you keep your house heated in the winter and run the A/C in the summer? I think much of the seasonal movement of any type of flooring is mostly overblown, and due to legacy concerns. That is, 100 years ago, everybody heated with firewood, getting the air very dry, but probably not terribly warm, then the air would get hot and humid in the summer--a huge swing in both temperature and humidity. Nowadays, most folks don't let their houses swing more than 10ºF (Okay, I go 15ºF--62ºF for nights in the winter, and A/C gets set to 77ºF in the summer), and probably stay between 40 and 60% RH most of the time. Even if the RH goes outside that range, it's probably not for very long, and not enough to cause a major change in the moisture content of a sealed floor.

All that to say, I'd just nail it to the floor and not worry about it. If you're really worried, you should be able to pre-drill a hole in the shoe mold and still hit the bottom plate with a 6d finish nail.

[Gordon Harner]

If you toenail the shoe you will probably miss the flooring material. At the worst you will catch the edge and movement will not be significantly impaired.

[Brett Bobo]

Joseph,
The base was removed prior to the install. The gap is based on how much out of level the resulting floor is over long runs, roughly 1/2".

Jason,
Being down in Texas, the A/C dominates most of the year so as you say, there's maybe a 10 degree swing through the year. Also, I considered trying to hit the sill plate, it's just that I'd need to probably go with a 2 1/2" finish nail to have enough bite into the sill plate--1/2" wide shoe, 3/4" wide base, 1/2" wide gyp = 1 3/4". However, if I do end up just nailing the shoe to the floor, then I could jump down to say a 1" (18 gauge) finish nail and get a cleaner result.

Appreciate the input!

[Peter Quinn]

Joseph,
The base was removed prior to the install. The gap is based on how much out of level the resulting floor is over long runs, roughly 1/2".



To borrow a phrase, "Scribe Baby Scribe..." . If the floor fluctuates that much, mistakes have been made. If the house is old, choices are to fix the issue with the substrate (guess you missed that window), scribe the base to the floor (my favorite choice), or make a taller shoe. As much as 1 1/4" isn't unusual. Home centers sell only the mundane 5/8" X 3/4" quarter round option, but with a router you can easily make something taller to cover that tall gap. Look to old molding catalogues for lots of inspiration. There used to be lots of elegant choices that no longer exist commercially. A last resort is to mostly nail the shoe to the base, but where there are big dips push hard and nail it to the floor. It will bend a little. Finish nails in a shoe mold will not stop a hardwood floor from moving, the floor may move the shoe a bit should it shrink in winter, not IMO the end of the world.

[Cameron Hood]

I wonder if this would work--if it does, it would save you a lot of effort. Use the shoe molding but nail it to the wall, not the floor, with 2 inch PIN nails (23g). The pins are so small that they won't split the wood and the 2 inch length means the nail doesn't have to hit the baseboard, it will hit the wall behind the baseboard. All you are doing is holding the shoe molding tight, there isn't any stress on it, so the pin nails should hold.

[Mike Heidrick]

remove and reset the baseboards. they should have been removed before the flooring was installed.

That is what I was thinking too. Were they not removed originally?

[Joseph Tarantino]

Joseph,
The base was removed prior to the install. The gap is based on how much out of level the resulting floor is over long runs, roughly 1/2".

Jason,
Being down in Texas, the A/C dominates most of the year so as you say, there's maybe a 10 degree swing through the year. Also, I considered trying to hit the sill plate, it's just that I'd need to probably go with a 2 1/2" finish nail to have enough bite into the sill plate--1/2" wide shoe, 3/4" wide base, 1/2" wide gyp = 1 3/4". However, if I do end up just nailing the shoe to the floor, then I could jump down to say a 1" (18 gauge) finish nail and get a cleaner result.

Appreciate the input!

so are you trying to keep the baseboard level around the room? and the gap results from an out of level floor?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Use the shoe molding but nail it to the wall, not the floor, with 2 inch PIN nails (23g). The pins are so small that they won't split the wood and the 2 inch length means the nail doesn't have to hit the baseboard, it will hit the wall behind the baseboard

Been there - tried that - the pins just don't have enough "grab" to hold the shoe, even w/a light bead of Power Grab adhesive.
The shoe would pull away from the baseboard as I worked down the length of it.
It was very frustrating to get to the end, step back to admire my handy work and discover a very wavy shoe.
Adding a bead of power grab only made it worse since then there was not only a wave, but, an icky looking wad of goo showing too.

An 18 ga brad nailer w/1.25" brads & a light bead of Power Grab however did hold very well.

& yes - I did shoot a few into the flooring. Both pins and brads.
(Again, the pins just didn't have enough head to hold the shoe.)

All seems fine - one install was done four years ago and the other a little under three.

[Carpenter Mark]

While it's been long forgotten, you're supposed to nail the shoe to the floor, not the wall. The shoe is to move with the floor structure( joists) to cover the gap you're having issues with.
The flooring-"engineered" or not- usually wont have much horizontal movement at the walls to effect the shoe; most movement occurs where the floor is in sun light, continual changes in air flow/moisture, and can be significant over crawlspaces and unheated basements.
If you can't nail it to the flooring material, you'll have to use a nail long enough to reach the sub-floor at an angle. If gun nails won't reach, use 8-10p finish ,nail by hand and set the heads. (By HAND!!!!???? My God! Did I just say that? ;-) )

[lowell holmes]

Have you considered filling the gaps with wood. You could rip some 1/2" tall strips from select pine at the BORG. I would expect to fit the strips by planing with a block hand plane. The top of the filler strips could be attached to the bottom of the baseboard with glue. The filler wouldn't have to be continuous, just on centers to allow nailing after the adhesive dries.

[Jason Roehl]

While it's been long forgotten, you're supposed to nail the shoe to the floor, not the wall. The shoe is to move with the floor structure( joists) to cover the gap you're having issues with.
The flooring-"engineered" or not- usually wont have much horizontal movement at the walls to effect the shoe; most movement occurs where the floor is in sun light, continual changes in air flow/moisture, and can be significant over crawlspaces and unheated basements.
If you can't nail it to the flooring material, you'll have to use a nail long enough to reach the sub-floor at an angle. If gun nails won't reach, use 8-10p finish ,nail by hand and set the heads. (By HAND!!!!???? My God! Did I just say that? ;-) )

So, when the floor shrinks across its width by 1/4", you WANT a 1/4" gap between the base and the shoe? I'm not buying it. Shoe mold is taller than it is thick so it gets nailed to the base, allowing the floor to move back and forth underneath it, helping to hide the gap left for expansion.

BTW, we're a pretty friendly outfit here, and one of the ways we stay that way is by using our real names--it's in the TOS (Terms Of Service) agreement you made when you signed up. You may need to contact an administrator to have them change your user name for you--I'm pretty skeptical you're using your given name.

[Brett Bobo]

Lowell and Peter,
Yep, the two things I was trying to avoid--scribing the base to the floor or filling the gaps between the base and the floor. If I wasn't doing a whole house full of trim, which includes a built-up base, plinth blocks, door casings, built-up head casings, etc., scribing would be my first choice. It's already been quite time consuming so if there are no major issues with nailing the shoe to the floor, then that was my plan to simplify the install.

Mike and Joseph,
Just to clarify, the original base was removed prior to the floor install, which is why I'm redoing the base and putting in a different trim detail altogether. So, the resulting 1/2" gap is from an out of level floor when I level the base and this occurs primarily on the first floor with a slab on grade foundation. Note: the house is almost 30 years old. The floor installer was only concerned with a flat, not level, surface, and the floor was floated to a flat surface within +/- 1/8" over 8', I believe. Obviously, this poses potential problems for me on the trim, which I'm leveling.

This is exactly why I dread dealing with existing conditions because it's never straight forward and gives me nothing but headaches--too late now, I guess! :)

Thanks again for the insight.

[lowell holmes]

Brett,

I've never nailed shoe mold to the floor, so I don't know what happens when you do.

I'm in Galveston County, so we have conditions that are more extreme than where you are located.

We have engineered wood floors, but they are not real wood, so things are different. If your floor is real wood, but laminated cross grain, you probably don't have the moisture problem we have.

I have installed real wood floors on screeds and under no circumstancw would I consider doing anything to to inhibit the expansion of wooden floor due to moisure content or temperature fluctuations.

I would consider milling some 1" high shoe mold if I were in your perdicument. I recently made some door wedge door casing that is a full 2 1/4" wide because I needed the full width. It took about 2 hours. I used radiata pine from the BORG.

[scott vroom]

The way I look at it, it's low-risk to nail the shoe to the floor where the gap widens to 1/2". If it doesn't work out, all you've lost is a little time and some relatively inexpensive material.

Engineered flooring is typically a plywood construction so movement is minimal to non-existant. I just wouldn't worry about it. I've been forced to nail shoe to engineered flooring and have not had a callback after several years.

One poster suggested using a taller base shoe; the problem with that is a taller shoe is going to be harder to bend to conform with your uneven floor.

[Carpenter Mark]

No, there will not be a 1/4" gap at the base, unless the piece of flooring you've nailed it to shrinks or moves that much. And if a single piece moved that much, I'd be investigating how it was fastened in the first place.
Carpenter is my profession- started an apprenticeship 40 years ago, worked in all phases of construction from the hole in the ground up, seven years in the Carpenters and Joiners Union, self- employed (and enjoying it!) for the past twenty, largely in high end residential construction. Went back to college at age 50 to upgrade my skills, knowledge, become proficient in AutoCAD and got a degree in Construction Tenchnology and Management. (kind of a slam dunk in some respects)
I have a fully equipped professional shop, I can make flooring, shoe and base and frequently do
I'm am a friendly guy.
I know from where I speak.
Mark is my real first name, and I think the Admins have my last. My suggestion to you, Jason, would be to look up Audels Carpenters guides and possibly Building Construction Illustrated by Ching. Perhaps when you're better informed, you'll 'buy it".

[Prashun Patel]

If it's only a few places where you have to do this, I'm with Scott Vroom, or I say drop in a filler/batten in those spots.

Another option is to mill yr own shoe moldings that are 1" tall, or to add a 'base-to-the-base'. Not saying I'd do this, but it is an option.

[Lee Schierer]

If your shoes are molding keep them in a dryer place....sorry:eek:

Use longer 18 gauge brads and put a small filler block where the gaps would tend to cause you to nail too high up on the shoe molding and nail through the shoe as if it were fully supported by the baseboards. Nail through the shoe and the small spacers. No one but you will know they are there until you remodel.