Liquid hyde glue---any users? any thoughts? any problems or tricks?

[Peter Quinn]

I'm getting close to a glue up on a bookcase I'm building for my 5 year old son. I don't usually make furniture, but he just started school this year, has books all over his room, I couldn't find just what I wanted, I have a pile of hard maple....figured I give this a go. Anyway, there are an awful lot of tenons and a couple of dovetail tenons involved, dust screens, plywood end panels that get glued in as braces, kickers for two drawers......boy there are a lot of little joints to glue no matter how I break it down into sub assemblies. Has me nervous.


So, I read a recent article in FWW extolling the virtues of tite bond liquid hyde glue, and the "longer open time, squishier for assembling sliding dovetails" properties seemed attractive. Well, I looked at the bottle I had picked up meaning to try several years earlier, expired, threw that out, got a fresh bottle with a good expiration date, but still I'm nervous having never used the stuff before. There is a lot of work into this simple little bookcase at this point, wouldn't like to mess it up with glue issues, also wouldn't like my 5 year old to learn any new words he's overheard while daddy rushes to beat the open time of titebond II. I've tried extend, not a fan, still not a very ling open time.

Anybody tried this stuff, any observations? Is it strong enough? Does it spread well? I may do the old "glue up a test joint and beat the pulp out of it" test soon, but it would be comforting to hear form other users.

[Phil Thien]

Never used it, but when I want a glue with longer open times (which is really pretty much always), I just reach for the Elmer's Glue-All. The white stuff. It has an unbelievably long open time.

Fifteen minutes after assembling a joint with the stuff, I can typically still close it (if needed) with a clamp.

[Shawn Pixley]

Hide glue is very easy and forgiving to do. It has a long open time and flows better than Titebond. And best yet, if you screw up it is reversable. I say you should go for it.

[Jim Neeley]

+1 on Liquid Hyde...

As a sidebar, if *really* long working time is ever required, West Systems two-part Epoxy with slow-set hardener promises up to 2 hours pot time. I used it to glue up the 36"w x 84" long bench from 1-1/2 stock in a single glue-up. With my son and I working it, it still took an hour and even the first parts were still adjustable. You do then need to leave plenty of drying time by for a hobbiest like me, I glued it one Sunday and let it dry all week!!

[Brett Robson]

I use it all the time, almost to the exclusion of most other glues. It's no different than any other glue in the application of it - spread, clamp, wait, repeat.

As you've already read about, the benefit's in the open time- I'd guess about 20 minutes, maybe a bit more is pretty common. Liquid hide glue is plenty strong. FWW had a test of glues a while back and it tested very close in strength to your basic PVA yellow wood glue. If you have access to their online stuff the article is available there.

I like that it's easily reversible with water/heat, accepts finishes and cleans up easily with water, even the dried stuff.

If you have a complicated glue up in mind, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. IMHO, for an interior piece, I wouldn't use anything else providing water resistance isn't a concern.

[Paul Saffold]

I have been using it on interior projects. In addition to the others comments is the ease of clean up. It wipes easily with a warm damp rag while it is still semi-liquid. And nearly as easily after it has hardened. Just don't get sloppily wet so the water can creep into the joint. That is how you can weaken the bond enough to separate the joint. Oops, I just read Brett's post and see he has covered most of this.
Short answer. Yes. No problems yet.

[Mel Fulks]

A friend,now gone, who used to repair and adjust violins told me he had tried it on an instrument of his own and after a couple of years it came loose. I don't remember all the details, but I know he kept good records.It got me to thinking,would I buy non melting ice or concrete with a three day working time ? I'm Leary of it. But if a chemist told me its okay ,I would listen.

[Jerry Thompson]

I have been using liquid hide glue and hot hide glue for almost everything. Of course one would not use it for outdoor pieces. There is no creep when one is edge gluing. I am not concerned about its reversability because I never make mistakes:)

[Jim Matthews]

Just treat it as you would any yellow glue.

Wipe off the excess that squeezes out of the joints with a damp rag.
When you glue up the bookshelf, it will really come into it's own glory when rubbing on glue blocks in corners.

I use the stuff all the time, now - I think it's the leisurely pace of glue ups that I like.
I also favor clear finishes and the glue line isn't as obvious with hide glue.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/hide-glue-historical-and-practical-applications-stephen-shepherd

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like I'm sold, I'm going to try it. Can it be used for vacuum veneer work as well? I hadn't seen any info about that one way or the other, only descriptions of hammer veneering with hot hide glue.

[ian maybury]

Can't speak for the glue itself, but it's notable that some sort of vibe seems to have passed through the woodworking publishing world which has resulted in its starting to get some profile recently - with a few writing pieces about it.

Feels like somebody is pushing it from behind the scenes.....

As usual it's the greatest ever, sticks almost everything etc etc But likely not much by way of hard performance and/or applications data about, or much commentary on its limitations...

ian

[Damon Stathatos]

Patrick Edwards of The American School of French Marquetry is a big advocate of hide glues. So much so that he's developed his own version which gels at a slightly lower temp and has a bit more of an extended open time. I've never used it myself (not much need) but know quite a few people who swear by it. You can find just about any information you could want about hide glues on his site here (http://www.oldbrownglue.com/index.html).

Even more interesting than his 'selling' site is his regular website (http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/school.htm) which shows his work and school.


The way I figure it is that hide glues have presumably kept all of the old furniture (antiques) together and they're still around to this day so there's got to be something to it, but that may be a wrong assumption as well, who knows ???

[Phil Thien]

Patrick Edwards of The American School of French Marquetry is a big advocate of hide glues. So much so that he's developed his own version which gels at a slightly lower temp and has a bit more of an extended open time. I've never used it myself (not much need) but know quite a few people who swear by it. You can find just about any information you could want about hide glues on his site here (http://www.oldbrownglue.com/index.html).

Even more interesting than his 'selling' site is his regular website (http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/school.htm) which shows his work and school.


The way I figure it is that hide glues have presumably kept all of the old furniture (antiques) together and they're still around to this day so there's got to be something to it, but that may be a wrong assumption as well, who knows ???


A possible important distinction is that, this thread is about LIQUID hide glue. The stuff that comes in the bottle, doesn't have to be heated, is ready to use. This stuff is not your grandfather's hide glue.

I do not know how close the liquid hide glue is to the old-fashioned high glue in chemical composition or properties (strength, open time, etc.).

Anyone know and care to comment?

[Robert LaPlaca]

I use hide glue for 95 percent of my glue ups.. If I wanted to use pre-mixed liquid hide glue I would without hesitation use Patrick Edwards Olde Brown glue, since the stuff has a shelf life you maybe best served to order directly from Olde Brown glue. I mostly use hot hide glue, but have used Olde Brown glue and it works great too. I am sold on the virtues of hide glue. You will get about 15 - 20 minutes of working time with the olde brown product, the warmer your shop the longer the open time.. Also sometimes the glue is semi-solid, just sit in a water bath of warm water to get it into a spreadable consistency

[Robert LaPlaca]

A possible important distinction is that, this thread is about LIQUID hide glue. The stuff that comes in the bottle, doesn't have to be heated, is ready to use. This stuff is not your grandfather's hide glue.

I do not know how close the liquid hide glue is to the old-fashioned high glue in chemical composition or properties (strength, open time, etc.).

Anyone know and care to comment?

Olde brown glue is 192 gram hide glue with the addition of urea to slow down the gelling of the glue.. The decellerants supposedly do make the glue slightly less strong..

[Peter Quinn]

Franklyn liquid Hyde glue uses different anti gel agents than old brown, but supposedly it remains stronger than the wood according to their technical bulletins and some independent tests I found, maybe in a Popular woodworking article? It is slightly weaker than the hot stuff but not as temperature sensitive, the franklyn version works down to 50 degrees, old brown needs a higher temp. My shop is in an unheated basement, so more than 50% of the year I'm below old brown's temp range. I'm guessing that putting warm glue on cold parts might not go well?

I still haven't found info on wide scale vacuum veneer applications. I may try it anyway.

[Frank Drew]

Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue has a fairly long open time and is quite strong when cured. It's a bit temperature sensitive, though, so I wouldn't use it in an unheated shop during the cold months.

I've only used hot hide glue, never the bottled stuff. (Do they really spell it hyde?)

[Peter Quinn]

(Do they really spell it hyde?) No, but my auto correct does! Sometimes I hate auto correct. I've considered the plastic resin glue, but as you mentioned, there is a temperature issue there, plus there is the formaldehyde issue. Plastic resin glue is a UF (urea formaldehyde) glue, I'd like to stay away from that, at least for furniture that goes in the kids bedrooms. Call me conservative, call me paranoid, it scares me.:eek:

[Curt Harms]

For a pretty long open time and ease of use, I have a fondness for RooGlue clear. It's been marketed for laminate use but it glues different materials including metal, stone and fabric. It has moderate water resistance, isn't runny, water cleanup while wet, I think it can be cleaned up with vinegar once dried and has around 20 minutes open time. Downside is it has to be clamped for about 4 hours.

[Andrew Joiner]

I use Titebond Extend mostly for the low temperature ability. It doesn't need much longer clamp time than regular Titebond. It's less gummy to sand than other PVA glues.


From Titebonds site:
Application TemperatureAbove 40°F.

Open assembly time15 minutes (70°F./50%RH)

Total assembly time20-25 minutes (70°F./50%RH)

Minimum required spreadApproximately 6 mils or 250 square feet per gallon

Required clamping pressureEnough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 30-80 psi for HPL, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)

Method of ApplicationEasily spread with a roller spreader or brush, or may be transferred to plastic bottles for finer gluing applications.

CleanupDamp cloth while glue is wet. Scrape off and sand dried excess.

[Kenneth Speed]

Hide glue and liquid hide glue are both very useful adhesives. While I don't use liquid hide glue any more and use the old fashioned stuff now I used to use liquid hide glue for filling dents and dings because it takes stain so well and can easily be mixed with a little sawdust.

Whenever you're using either type of hide glue it's good to have a source of warm water and a couple of rags handy for cleaning up.

I keep my regular hide glue in my refrigerator and nuke it briefly in the microwave to start the warming process and then transfer it to a hot water bath glue pot.

Ken

[Peter Quinn]

Well, I glued up all the sub-assemblies on the bookcase I'm building today, used the liquid hide glue. I like it. Spreads easy, has a faintly odd smell of old gravy, parts just slide together very nicely. And you can actually make adjustments and alignment on tightly fitted parts 10 minutes later without getting out the BIG hammer.:eek: Its a down right gentleman's pace, no rushing, no cursing, no heart palpitations. I could get used to this stuff. I did wind up using titebond III for the veneer work in the vacuum press. Didn't want to experiment with that aspect of this project, just wanted to work with what I know. Plus its a thick sawn maple veneer, so frankly a glue with a less rigid glue line that lets it move a bit may not be the works thing. Wouldn't want creep on a sunburst table top, but for some applications a little creep is just the right thing. Anyway, only time will tell, but for now I'm happy with it.

[paul cottingham]

i use it for all my glue ups now. I use both franklins and old hide glue. no ugly smell, reversible, easy to scrape excess squeeze out, long open time...whats not to like? Going to try it for veneering next.

[Jim German]

I used it on a complicated glue-up recently and was quite happy with it. Took me close to an hour to get it all put together and it still worked out well.

That being said, its defiantly not as strong as regular titebond. I glued up some samples, and with the regular titebond the wood breaks first, not the glue. With the Liquid Hide Glue the glue breaks instead. Still seems plenty strong for most applications.