wood dyeing

[tony tomlinson]

Greetings,

I'd like to try dyeing a project using the Transtint Dyes but I'm not sure of the application methods - I'm sure there must be some do's/don'ts. Can someone direct me to a tutorial, video, instructor etc.?

Thanks.

[allen thunem]

check with john keaton he's that master dyer

[Glen Blanchard]

Tony - I will be watching this thread, as I'd like to find a tutorial as well. If you find something, please post it here.

[jared herbert]

I would be interested too. I bought some transtint last winter and all I can say for sure is that there is a learning curve and when it looks nice it is really nice and when it is bad it is well bad.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

I do know dying wood looks best when done on figured woods. The whole idea is that different grain patterns will soak up the dye at different rates. Using multi colors on plain wood merely colors the wood.
As far as asking JK, I believe he did a complete tutorial for SWC some time ago. Perhaps you can do a search and find it. It was very informative.
faust

[Tim Rinehart]

that tutorial is over in the WTA site

[Rick Markham]

There are probably as many application methods, as their are woodturners. You can mix transtint dyes with alcohol or water. The concentration of the dye (and the solvent used) will affect how deeply the dye travels and (obviously) the amount of visible color it imparts. You can do do multiple applications, and even use multiple colors (if your so inclined), you can wipe it on, or spray it with an airbrush. It's pretty well an open invitation to experimentation.

So far all of my dye work (most of which I haven't posted here, but that's for another thread ;), I'll explain later) is using transtint dyes. I think I have about 14 colors, Only the primary colors are really "true" to their color. I will use other colors (like the purple) as a starting point, and tweak the color. (remember the most important thing is that the primary colors are as close to true primary colors, there is no way to adjust them.) Here's my biggest tip, take a scrap sheet of plywood (don't use white paper) and test all of your colors as you tweak them, you MUST allow the color to fully dry before determining it's final color/hue. They are deceptive if you don't . Purple seems to be the worst offender of the bunch, it's nearly a perfect purple when wet, but becomes "electric blue" after it's dried. So take your time and explore! You might surprise yourself.

As a closing note, be very careful applying the first layer of finish, waterborne finishes if applied too heavily will cause your dye job to run, then it's sanding and redyeing in your future. Have fun and explore!

[Prashun Patel]

...you MUST allow the color to fully dry before determining it's final color/hue....

Actually, I disagree (respectfully) with this statement, Rick. Aniline dyes dry muddy and muted and very much untrue to their final appearance when top-coated. How it looks freshly applied and wet is much closer to how it will look once top-coated - just as wet, uncolored wood is much closer to final top-coated appearance than is dry wood.

I also think it's better IMHO to use scraps of the actual wood - not plywood - to test color for a couple reasons.

Last, dye is very good at highlighting prep flaws. The old after-prepping-rinse-in-dna-to-highlight-flaws is key b4 dyeing - especially around the areas where side grain changes to end-grain. To that end, if yr vessel contains both types of grain, you'll do best to be able to test on a similarly composed piece.

If you have access to an airbrush sprayer, then I really think coloring using that is the best way to go. It's more prep time, but it provides the most control and allows you to really exploit the beauty of using dyes: sneaking up on a final color (not to mention doing fancy things like color blending and fading).

Padding or brushing on dye can be trickier on turned pieces than on flat pieces (primarily because of the varying grain orientation I mentioned above. Spraying it thinned in DNA makes it 'flash-dry' which prevents deep penetration and allows a much more even coat(s).

Also, know that dyes contain no binders (ala pigment stains) so they don't lock into the wood and can be lifted by the topcoat. This is a good thing bkz it allows you to apply many coats of dye to get a good hue (and to lift it out if you did too much). But you have to be careful about applying a topcoat. Transtint and t-fast are both water soluble, which means a waterbased topcoat like WTF or dna-based shellac can unintentionally lift the dye out if you pad/brush it on (that is, it moves the dye around and can result in areas that look unintentionally faded). Even oil-based topcoats can have this effect. So, the best thing to do is to spray a thin coat of shellac or lacquer to seal the color in. Once sealed, you can put most oil-based or wbased topcoats on per normal. Beware, though of using additional shellac or lacquer, which create a single fused coat, and as such can still lift the dye out.

You'll also discover that dna and waterbased dyes and topcoats can initially raise the grain on yr piece, which requires sanding. Try not to sand the first topcoat, but to put on a couple thin coats, and sand after 2 or 3, and gentle at that.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Tim,
Thanks for remembering that. You saved me a lot of time looking on SMC for Tony.
faust

[Rick Markham]

Prashun, I'm going to play around some with the Wet/Dry thing, but I disagree (at this point ;).) That's probably an entirely new thread in and of it's self. I will say that I take a watercolor approach to dyeing, the colors I mix, must be "fresh" and "alive" like the produce section. There is no muddiness in appearance when dry. The transtint dyes are really just starting points to unlocking their true potential, and I wholeheartedly agree when they dry they do appear muddy.

I'm going to add this for the benefit of those who don't know, transparent colors at a certain concentration lose their transparency, and start to become opaque. Which will generate a muddy look, and adding more solvent (lessening the concentration) will liven them back up. That also applies for layering of colors with an airbrush! Too many layers of a single color will cause it to start to become opaque, which will then obscure the grain.

Let me quantify why I said plywood. The wood type itself doesn't matter, it's the medium and the hue of the medium that's important. Let me explain hue, because hue is different than color. (for those who don't know) Hue is how light or dark a color is. There can be a nearly infinite hues of brown, but they all have a value between 0-100 (0% being white, 100% being black) Orange, (or brown, because brown is just orange with black added) has a range that falls within 0-100%. The hue, of the board is more important than it's actual color. The hue is actually going to affect the perceived dye color more than the actual color itself. The reason I use plywood, is that it is probably roughly 30% in hue, It's close enough, in hue, to most all other light colored woods and you will get a very accurate idea, and it's cheap! My turning stock is far from cheap, and I like being able to utilize (nearly) the entire dimensions of it in my pieces. Lets face it, we waste a lot of wood already! While I agree that it's going to be the most accurate to test on the same wood you are using, it isn't required. I can try a thousand times on a piece of plywood before I touch my piece.

I agree an airbrush is the only way to go. I can set mine up in a couple of minutes so it's easier than scrubbing dye off my hands.

color is a funny thing, the only way to learn about it is to mix colors and explore. The best way to do this (HUGE HINT HERE :D) is go to the art store, and buy some cheap (don't go steal your kids, they won't work the same) artist watercolors (you can get the ones in the same style plastic container like your kids, you don't need the expensive tubes, we are talking $5 here.), and some watercolor paper and just play. It's nearly free, and you will learn how/why color works. It's something an artist only learns by doing. You can even go so far as to study "Color Theory" but knowing color theory only explains why, the how is up to you to discover.

[Jim Burr]

Good info guys!! I find an airbrush is not the best application tool for say...the rim of a platter or other boundary limited area. I find an old T-shirt, folded to create a good edge works well. Gloves are a must! Find Steve Schlumph somewhere on here...that guy dyes everything!!

[Rick Markham]

Jim, that's true and a I should have more accurately said, that the airbrush is an exceptionally good tool, and a mixture of application methods may be in order. It really depends on the desired effect/ piece itself :) And yes, Steve loves dyeing wood, and does it remarkably well!

[Jenny Trice]

We had a guy do a demo at our local woodturners association meeting. He did airbrush, very skillfully. He just had a basic cheapy (Harbor Freight) air brush. He spoke highly of the Krylon triple glaze as a finish over the dies and his stuff was beautiful.

One technique he demonstrated that was very interesting was to take a cookie sheet or pizza pan and quirt out a pile of shaving cream (brand didn't matter, he said). He spread out the shaving cream over an area and then put three lines of three different color dies. He then did a careful mixing of the dies. Then he took a bowl and sat it in the shaving cream/die mixture. The shaving cream basically just floats or suspends the die. The bowl had a very interesting multicolored look.

Have fun!

[John Beaver]

There are a couple of disagreements here (many ways to skin cat) so I will give my opinion.

I always try to cut a corner off the exact wood I using before turning so I can practice finishes on that wood. I have seen a tremendous difference in the way the same dye looks on different wood.

I also think you don't really know the true color until the final finish is applied. Dye definitely looks different when from wet to dry, so to be really accurate I recommend adding a finish on your practice piece to see the true final color. Sometimes I will bleach the wood before adding the dye to achieve a "brighter" look.

My application methods include, sanding, wetting the wood to raise the grain and then final sanding before applying the dye. Usually I will apply first coat of dye, lightly sand then apply a second coat. Because I am often dying only part of the wood, I start with my primary color, and then add different color drops to shift the palette either towards or away from the contrasting wood for desired effect.

I have applied dye with brushes, rags, and airbrush with equal success.

[Rick Markham]

Too cool Jenny! That's an interesting technique for sure, and definitely one worth trying!

[Bob Bergstrom]

If I want to know how the color of a piece will look before I dye it, I use the unturned blank as a test piece. sand it to 600 grit and then apply the dye on it. If I don't like it sand or cut it off and apply some other technique. Nothing lost and a real insight to what it will look like on the finished piece.

[Prashun Patel]

You might take this question to the Finisher's Forum. I believe there is some info/advice here that's not what I've experienced. My experience is more in line with some of the flatworlders over there. Rick's right, though: experiment for yourself. Rick's taught me a thing or two, so i offer this 3rd disagreement with humility: I don't find aniline dyes - at least Transtint and Transfast - to obscure or muddy the grain at all - once re-wet by a topcoat. I find Transtints (and I've used a few browns, yellow, green, red, blue, and black) all go on brilliant and clear, dry muddy, then rebrilliantize once topcoated. YMMV, apparently ;)

[Rick Markham]

Prashun, I think our disagreement is largely a semantic one. This isn't an easy thing to describe. Muddy probably isn't the best adjective as it implies an opaqueness. Transtint dyes, do an amazing job at remaining ultra transparent. (It's all I use, or need, at this point)

I agree the brillance of the piece changes between wet and dry (due to finish.) Changes in the actual color, and changes in hue of the color because of the finish are largely due to the nature of the finish itself. IMHO. We have to always consider that the finish acts as a filter (like they used to use on old SLR cameras) and affect the spectrum of light that is reflected back to our eyes. So yes, the final color is altered (depending on your finish it can make a BIG difference.)

As John Beaver has pointed out, yes color of the wood does have an effect (it's part of the fun) Certain colors don't work well with other colors, and it is a dance that we play as the artist as to how we exploit that. But color isn't hue, and the terms aren't interchangeable. Each plays a significant role in the visual effect generated. I'm mearly stating that in Art and painting (which are both things we are doing here) that color plays a secondary role to hue. Our brains like to play visual tricks on us, it automatically color corrects for what it "knows" is right.

These are not easy concepts to convey. Especially since our brain likes to "fix" things unknowing to us. Young painters struggle with Color theory for this very reason, there almost needs to be a suspension of disbelief when learning color, you have to trust the physics of color and disregard everything our brains tell us. Even though some of it seems completely contrary to what our brain tells us. Hence why the process can only be exploited via experience.

I need to go finish my homework, so I can start a thread explaining my current situation/work etc, this works better with examples. Unfortunately my posting will come at a personal cost to me (the extent of which I cannot gauge until I do post, I've been very hesitant to do so for this very reason)

I like that this discussion is here, it's an important subject. Color is a very personal thing and should be treated as such. :) It's been a stimulating conversation so far!

[Sid Matheny]

Since Jenny named Krylon triple glaze, I thought I would let anyone using it know there is a recall on some of the cans.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml12/12259.html

Sid

[Rick Markham]

Sid, good looking out. It looks like a batch of cans might clear coat something you don't want clear coated :D

[Marc Himes]

I use Artisan and Trans Tint dyes with alcohol. One technique I have found helpful in coloring figured wood is to wash (scrub) the entire piece with a paper towel soaked generously with alcohol while it is on the lathe, after I have applied the final coats of color. The figure in the wood becomes more prominent. The colors may blend a bit when I do this but I am usually after that effect anyway. I usually sand with 400 or 600 to take away the grain raised by the dying process before applying finish and if I do it lightly, it doesn't seen to take away too much color. There is a lot of trial and error so experimentation is the ticket even after you get some instruction. Have FUN!

[Jim Burr]

Jim, that's true and a I should have more accurately said, that the airbrush is an exceptionally good tool, and a mixture of application methods may be in order. It really depends on the desired effect/ piece itself :) And yes, Steve loves dyeing wood, and does it remarkably well!

No Coroner, no foul Rick...just adding more junk to the mess;)!! I haven't shot an entire piece with my AB yet...want to be able to spend a few days focusing instead of an hour:mad:. Done a lot of playing with platter rims and bottle stoppers so I'm really comfortable with the folded fabric techinque. I put H2O in my brush and shot it on cardboard to get a feel for the action and view patterns/density. Next weekend...the brush comes out and I found a source in Fresno that has WTF so it will be a double wammy:D! Thanks for all the tricks and tips!

[tony tomlinson]

Thanks to all for your re-plies. As usual on this forum I was pointed right to the info I needed. The tutorial by John Keeton on the Woodturners of America site was excellent and very informative and Marc, I appreciate your input.

Many thanks to all
Tony