Japanese Chisels... Which ones to get?

[James Bird]

Ok so I have some questions for all the Japanese tool users I know are floating around this forum.

First off I want a nice basic set of japanese chisels. I will spend the amount necessary to get them... just want to hear some people's opinons who own these various sets...

First set I have looked at are the Iyoroi set from TFWW I guess my question is... are these "good enough" or will I feel they are lacking?

Next set I have looked at are the Matsumura blue steel set, these got rave reviews from FWW but I dunno... I have read some concerns about them being basically "unheard of" in Japan

The 3rd set is the koyamaichi set from Stu, a member of this forum who runs his own site that sells this set. I guess these are the ones I am leaning to... but they are also the most expensive... so if I don't need to spend this much that would be nice...

other brands I have heard about are Fujihiro, Koyama, Ice Bear, etc... Obviously Tasai would be out of the question!

Another route I could see going in would be to buy just 2 or 3 chisels of a higher quality for the same amount of money as set of 6 from a lesser maker.... I get that this is maybe a better idea... but for one... I kinda am a guy who likes "sets" and 2 again, if the Iyoroi are the way to go then so be it...

Also I would like to add that if anyone knows of a set in the price range of the Iyoroi's from TFWW that they believe is better or is just a little more and is better... or they feel I should also consider, I would love to hear about them...

Thanks so much for your time! I appreciate the seemingly endless wisdom from the SMC and I would like to apologize to anyone who was offended by another thread I posted a week or so ago that was deleted. But lets not dwell on that.

[David Wong]

I have a set of Matsumura blue steel chisels that I like very much. A couple of them were prone to chipping when I first got them, but they settled down nicely after a few sharpening. They sharpen easily and hold an edge reasonably well. Note that these are small in size compared to other chisels I have. The best chisels I have are a couple of Imai sword steel chisels. They are surprisingly easy to sharpen, and they seem to hold a sharp edge forever. Both the Matsumura's and Imai's are very easy to maintain by stropping on a piece of plain leather, or using a high grit finish stone. I typically use them with a 375gm metal hammer.

My advice would be to pickup a few chisels from different makers before getting a full set. I probably use 3mm, 6mm, 9mm, 12mm, and 19mm, most frequently - of course your own work will dictate the sizes you use most often.

Stu is a great resource and carries quality merchandise. I also have had nothing but good experiences from TFWW.

[Jim Matthews]

I second the motion to discuss your needs with the vendor, directly.

Japan woodworker also has some knowledgeable people on staff - if you get a consensus from three, you've probably got a fair survey.
I don't know your degree of experience, so please forgive an obvious question - Have you used Japanese chisels for an extended period of time?

I found the iron hoops on the handles unacceptable. Great steel was found in all of my chisel variants, including the coarsest set - they were all easy to get quite sharp.
In the end, I found that a smooth, oval handle is best for me. I didn't like always using a hammer or mallet to drive the japanese style.

As you're well aware, these are long money, so it's worthwhile to have a feel for what you're buying.

jim
wpt, ma

[David Weaver]

Any of the chisels you mention would allow you to work wood just fine.

I would buy the koyamaichi chisels, though. The Iyoroi blue steel chisels are probably also fine. I don't like Iyoroi's white steel stuff so well unless it is a higher end chisel, and most of their higher-end chisels aren't marketed over here.

I like David Wong's choice for sizes above, too. I don't know where the standard set of japanese chisels comes from (the 5 piece sets), they always choose 2 narrow chisels and 3 wide ones that you'll never use much.

[James Bird]

I second the motion to discuss your needs with the vendor, directly.

Japan woodworker also has some knowledgeable people on staff - if you get a consensus from three, you've probably got a fair survey.
I don't know your degree of experience, so please forgive an obvious question - Have you used Japanese chisels for an extended period of time?

I found the iron hoops on the handles unacceptable. Great steel was found in all of my chisel variants, including the coarsest set - they were all easy to get quite sharp.
In the end, I found that a smooth, oval handle is best for me. I didn't like always using a hammer or mallet to drive the japanese style.

As you're well aware, these are long money, so it's worthwhile to have a feel for what you're buying.

jim
wpt, ma

I actually only own one japanese chisel. I got it at an antique store and it is a mortise chisel. So I have little to no experience with them. Which is why I would like to own a few, having many different types of chisels and woodworking tools makes doing my craft more enjoyable. Some live by the Anarchist Tool chest notion off less is more. For me, I find doing a whole project with a different set or culture of tools than I normally use a challenge and very educational and enjoyable. Hence the want for Japanese chisels.

I am curious to hear more about why you found the Iron hoops unacceptable. You mention a smooth oval handle, I have never seen these as standard on any japanese chisel so I am assuming you made the handles and replaced them onto your japanese chisels yourself... can you expand on that and maybe include pictures.

[Jack Curtis]

If I were buying my first Japanese chisels today, I think I'd go with a few Koyamaichi white steel, maybe even shinogi, from Stu. But most of the JWW chisels look OK, and the Hida Fuji (Imai) are excellent, too. If you ever get into super high end stuff, there are some other choices. You may want to do a search on ebay right now, within the next 7 hours or so, there are a couple of full sets from the '80's going for bargain prices.

There's also a set of Japanese tools on ebay that look real nice, but there's no information to speak of, so it's a pot shot. Still, might be a better way to go: buy a bunch of mixed tools for not much money and try them out, especially in these times when there are ebay sellers who sell for a percentage and haven't a clue as to what they have. And I might mention that occasionally there are real deals to be had there. I recently found a Kisuke Dragon 9 mm for almost nothing from an Osaka seller.

[Chris Vandiver]

Don't overlook Ouchi chisels(also available from Stu). These are very good chisels and highly thought of in Japan. They come in a variety of shapes, my favorite being the Kaku-uchi style.

[Jim Matthews]

To be clear, I owned and sold off all my Japaneses chisels.
The business end was excellent, and the steel easy to sharpen.

I felt they were heavy on the front end, and uncomfortable to hold for any period of time.

When I started cutting dovetails well with my saw, I found chisels less useful.

I went with modern western chisels, with smooth handles. I did not retrofit any of the japanese chisels I owned.

I never got used to the japanese chisels, and disliked the feel of the hoops in my hands.

The exception would be my long paring chisels which are japanese, and have (probably not coincidentally) smooth handles.

I would recommend going with the vendor that will allow a return if the "test drive" isn't to your liking.
Modern japanese chisels are so well made (even the coarsest) that they'll likely last your lifetime.

Choose carefully.

[Jack Curtis]

Don't overlook Ouchi chisels(also available from Stu). These are very good chisels and highly thought of in Japan. They come in a variety of shapes, my favorite being the Kaku-uchi style.

They have a great rep. A couple of old ones arrived Saturday, haven't had a chance to use them yet, they look real good. I find the Kaku-uchi style seductive, bevelless trapezoids always get me going. :)

[Stuart Tierney]

They have a great rep. A couple of old ones arrived Saturday, haven't had a chance to use them yet, they look real good. I find the Kaku-uchi style seductive, bevelless trapezoids always get me going. :)

Trapezoids...

^%&$#%^&$&...

I had someone in Israel I think it was completely confused about 'that shape' because, being an Australian, I call that shape a trapezium.

But he, living in Israel and using American English, knows 'that shape' as an isosceles trapezoid, and a trapezium as something quite different and not a shape that would be desirable as a chisel.

Stupid semantics...

Stu.

(Who likes them too. Doesn't matter if they're Ouchi or Koyamaichi, they're all nice. ;) )

[Jack Curtis]

Trapezoids...

^%&$#%^&$&...

I had someone in Israel I think it was completely confused about 'that shape' because, being an Australian, I call that shape a trapezium.

But he, living in Israel and using American English, knows 'that shape' as an isosceles trapezoid, and a trapezium as something quite different and not a shape that would be desirable as a chisel.

Stupid semantics...

What's the translation for "Kaku-uchi?"

[Stuart Tierney]

What's the translation for "Kaku-uchi?"

Kaku is 'angle/shape'. San-kaku = 3-shape = triangle. Shi-kaku = 4-shape = square. Naga-shi-kaku = long-4-shape = rectangle.

Uchi is not really clear to me to be honest. Uchi usually means 'inside' as a very literal meaning, and while that makes sense to me it probably makes no sense to anyone else. When you're self taught at reading Japanese (and teaching English to folks), you tend to be able to take a 'meaning' and match it up to what it really means, sort of. But it also means 'hit', and both meanings are used when it comes to chisels...

For a long time, I always ordered the faceted chisel hoops as te-uchi, te = hand and uchi = hammered. Now, tsuchi-me which is a better meaning of 'hammer-look' like moku-me = wood-look.

As it is, the 'hit' meaning is used when it comes to chisels.

So, it either means an 'hammered shape' or an 'inside shape' as the sides are angled in. Really, it's the counter to 'mentori' which translates as 'beveled edge'. As this shape was the simple, economical shape used for most chisels, it's most likely that it's how they came off the hammer and the name stuck.

That's about all I got. Someone with a more pure knowledge of Japanese can probably tell you, but maybe not as well. A lot of the tool terms are completely unknown by the average Tanaka-san walking down the street.

Stu.

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks, that's actually quite clear. I learned to chat in Spanish in immersion, so there are lots of words I can use properly in Spanish but can't translate into English (never taught anyone English or Spanish).

That's about all I got. Someone with a more pure knowledge of Japanese can probably tell you, but maybe not as well. A lot of the tool terms are completely unknown by the average Tanaka-san walking down the street.

That's pretty much true in English, probably any language. There are subsets of work described by a language subset. For example, rebate, rabbet, rabbit.... :)

[Derek Cohen]

......

First off I want a nice basic set of japanese chisels. I will spend the amount necessary to get them... just want to hear some people's opinons who own these various sets...

First set I have looked at are the Iyoroi set from TFWW I guess my question is... are these "good enough" or will I feel they are lacking?

Next set I have looked at are the Matsumura blue steel set, these got rave reviews from FWW but I dunno... I have read some concerns about them being basically "unheard of" in Japan

The 3rd set is the koyamaichi set from Stu, a member of this forum who runs his own site that sells this set. I guess these are the ones I am leaning to... but they are also the most expensive... so if I don't need to spend this much that would be nice...

other brands I have heard about are Fujihiro, Koyama, Ice Bear, etc... Obviously Tasai would be out of the question!

Another route I could see going in would be to buy just 2 or 3 chisels of a higher quality for the same amount of money as set of 6 from a lesser maker.... I get that this is maybe a better idea... but for one... I kinda am a guy who likes "sets" and 2 again, if the Iyoroi are the way to go then so be it.........

Hi James

So, are you wanting paring chisels (slicks) or bench chisels or dovetail chisels (which are really bench chisels)?

Or do you want sets or each?

For dovetails I think my Koyamaichi dovetailers are excellent. Stu had Mr Koyama grind the shoulders for me so that the lands are miniscule. 3, 4 1/2, 6, 12, 19, and 25mm

As mentioned, one does not really "need" expensive chisels to work. My bench chisels are Iyoroi. Nothing fancy. They hold a good edge. Keep in mind that bench chisels are only designed for chopping. Mine go up to 37mm.

Same your bench chisel money for the slicks. A good slick is a joy forever. I started out with basic Iyoroi, and theybwere fine. It was only when I began using Kiyohesi that the difference became apparent - thinner steel, better balance, even better edge holding. But these were a 3 year wait. No "need" for that. Mine run from 6mm up - no point in using something smaller. They really come into their own in the large sizes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Bird]

I would recommend going with the vendor that will allow a return if the "test drive" isn't to your liking.
Modern japanese chisels are so well made (even the coarsest) that they'll likely last your lifetime.

Choose carefully.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by Coarsest? I have never heard this term when referring to chisels? Maybe I am just not understanding, that wouldn't be a big surprise to me (or my wife!)

[James Bird]

Hi James

So, are you wanting paring chisels (slicks) or bench chisels or dovetail chisels (which are really bench chisels)?

Or do you want sets or each?

Derek

So how about this... what if I bought just a few sizes of "bench chisel" just for mallet use or chopping... and got the Iyoroi's
Then maybe got 2 or 3 slicks
and maybe 2 or 3 Dovetail profile chisels...

What do you think of that Derek?

And also if you do think thats a good Idea, what brand slicks would you recommend getting? and what brand Dovetailers? and even what brand bench chisels? would you still recommend the Iyoroi if all I was using them for was chopping?


thanks again for the help, It is a real treat to get advice from you guys. Definitely Invaluable.

[James Bird]

Oh, and also what sizes would you recommend getting in slicks and DT and even bench chisels If I were to go with the route I mentioned... I know this varies but I am wondering what your opinion would be.

[Jim Matthews]

Listen to SWMBO - they know what is best for us.

I mean to say that there are several grades of steel on offer for the Japanese chisels.
I'm no metallurgist, so I could be off on a couple key points that follow:

Each time the steel is folded over the layers become progressively thinner - finer if you will.
The repeated forging drives the smallest particles into a more uniform distribution, for a keener edge.
The handling of this process has limits - and the experienced maker has a clear idea of what to do.

This all costs time, and time dedicated to making such tools demands higher prices.

The simpler tools have fewer refining steps, and by definition could be called "coarse" by comparison.
http://www.navaching.com/forge/coldforge.html

My knowledge of this is purely academic - I've never forged steel or iron.
I have sharpened LOTS of blades, and the Japanese chisels are among my favorites - they sharpen quickly to a keen edge.

Even the humblest Japanese chisels I've owned are easy to whip into shape (I suppose because the backs are hollowed).
I just don't like the hoops.

[Jason Steward]

I have a full set of nomikatsu chisels made out of hitachi high speed steel from traditional wood worker. If you really want the best japanese chisels these are it. They are only rarely available, and this guy from texas gets them. Hardness is as good as it comes, RC66. The steel is as fine grain as you can get. I used to own white laminated steel japanese chisels but these blow them away. As others have said japanese chisels are designed to be used with a mallet, I use a brass one. I have never found better edge retention than these. I have vintage Swans, and others but there is no comparison. These are my go to chisels. If you are looking for the best these are it.

[Stuart Tierney]

I have a full set of nomikatsu chisels made out of hitachi high speed steel from traditional wood worker. If you really want the best japanese chisels these are it. They are only rarely available, and this guy from texas gets them. Hardness is as good as it comes, RC66. The steel is as fine grain as you can get. I used to own white laminated steel japanese chisels but these blow them away. As others have said japanese chisels are designed to be used with a mallet, I use a brass one. I have never found better edge retention than these. I have vintage Swans, and others but there is no comparison. These are my go to chisels. If you are looking for the best these are it.


Umm, you sure about that?

Really, really sure?

(Reaches into a drawer 1 foot from my left hand, places hand on a new one. Reaches into another drawer 1 foot from my right hand, places hand on a well used and loved one. Not that rare I don't think. They're also not the longest lasting, toughest or hardest chisels I own. Not by a very, very, very long way...)

Stu.

[Derek Cohen]

They're also not the longest lasting, toughest or hardest chisels I own. Not by a very, very, very long way...

If they are anything like the one I have from you, Stu, then .. no .. I very much doubt there is much tougher around. :eek: I gave up trying to flat hone the bevel face and hollow ground it (then is was easy to sharpen). :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stuart Tierney]

They're also not the longest lasting, toughest or hardest chisels I own. Not by a very, very, very long way...

If they are anything like the one I have from you, Stu, then .. no .. I very much doubt there is much tougher around. :eek: I gave up trying to flat hone the bevel face and hollow ground it (then is was easy to sharpen). :)

Regards from Perth

Derek




Bingo.

Hollow grinding is ok, microbevel is better but the steel is so tough, it doesn't really matter.

Actually, doing a full flat bevel on those chisels is not the recommended honing technique at all, and one I can't advocate. It's made worse by the soft backing steel, since that tears stuff up in a completely different way to the stupidly hard and tough steel.

Still a bit of a quandary really, and talking with the folks who make them, we've come up with a recommendation of sorts.

(Hint, you've got all you need right there Derek.)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Stu - compare the yxr-7 to anything else HSS of known alloy that you've used? We do already know that M2 isn't real great for chisels, but I don't know if we know whether or not M4 is - probably better for wear resistance in a plane. I'm wondering what's in it the yxr-7, as it appears in several manufacturer's chisels.

Btw...did you get to use one of those suehiro 0.5 micron stones yet? I'm going to guess someone who buys one for 360 big ones isn't going to want you to blacken the surface before you send it to them!! If I didn't have such a piggish amount of stones already, I'd buy one just out of curiosity, but a recent stint with a genuine escher has has hinted that I already have as good of a razor stone as there is. I could be swayed if they make one at half or quarter the size of the 0.5 micron, though.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu - compare the yxr-7 to anything else HSS of known alloy that you've used? I'm wondering what's in it.

Btw...did you get to use one of those suehiro 0.5 micron stones yet? I'm going to guess someone who buys one for 360 big ones isn't going to want you to blacken the surface!!


From what Fujikawa tells me, it's not that much different to Co-HSS, but it's what's been done to it at the steel mill that makes it so frighteningly tough.

You know how some folks here will get a piece of steel, heat it up and beat it to death to make the grain structure smaller? How it toughens up the steel without sacrificing much else?

Now do that to M4 HSS and see what happens, and you get YXR-7. It's technically not a PM-HSS, but Fujikawa (and Iyoroi) call it such, so I'm safe enough doing the same.

So the steel starts out as tougher than M2 (what's in the Koyama HSS as previously mentioned, gooood chisels if you're into that kind of thing) and then the crank the 'tough' up by 200-400% according to Hitachi's testing, and by my testing, it's at least twice as tough as the Koyama chisels.

The Suehiro stone? I ponied up and bought one for my own amusement, and I use it often. Completely academic really, but it does make a difference over and above anything save the Shapton 30K stones, which are effectively the same thing but thinner and more expensive for what you're getting. It's almost embarrassing to make them available, but folks are buying them fairly regularly and if you're the kind of person who wants something like that, they're as good as you'll find.

I can tell you that when it's done it's thing on an edge, you can tell by how it cuts and how it looks in a microscope. All wooliness at the edge is gone.

Nice, but pointless really.

(But I still use mine all the time. Not like it's ever going to wear out...)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Pointless for woodworking, but for razors it definitely wouldn't be pointless.

And for a true freehand sharpener woodworking, you could use a medium stone and lift the handle or iron just a tiny bit on a 0.5 micron stone and put on a uniform tiny microbevel, one that wouldn't threaten the next raising of the wire edge with the medium stone. Ideally quick, no fiddling with guides and does the work only to the part of the steel that matters.

I could never understand the shapton 30k's pricing. Abrasive of that size really isn't that expensive. There is a place literally down the street from me that sells alumina down to .05 micron. there's probably enough in $60 worth (at street price for any buyer) of it to make at least 2 shapton 30ks. It's about what the buyer will pay, i guess. Their 1 micron alumina is the same price. You know what i'm implying by that, of course, that the actual cost of a 12k cream abrasive and a 30k glasstone is not a lot different.

There is a very small market at this point of razor honers who will pay a very large amount for a finer stone. Presume that some of them are buying your suehiro.

[Jason Steward]

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Japanese-Chisels-Nomikatsu-Premium-Grade/products/633/

take a look for yourself

[David Weaver]

It would be nice if they could tell us exactly what hitachi steel is in those chisels. Hitachi has many of them, and if it's SKH51, or whatever they call their version of M2, it's a lot different than if they are yxr-7 steel.

[Mel Fulks]

As much as I like m2 for machining they don't make the best chisels. They do make good ones compared to many new ones. Most guys in the business used to keep worn down high speed knives for chisels and such. It was thru borrowing such tools that I learned the profound difference between high speed and the too common semi high speed.Long time ago I bought a set of European chisels that are absolute rubbish,but I've opened many a can of paint with them.Won't name the brand here but they are still going and highly hyped. I too am skeptical of any new process that starts off with a modern formula steel and claims to be able to greatly improve it. As for sharpening stones I'm amazed at the cost of and interest in them . Roy Underhill made a point in one of his shows about the simplicity of his sharpening stuff. He does some good work.

[James Bird]

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Japanese-Chisels-Nomikatsu-Premium-Grade/products/633/

take a look for yourself

I don't think he needs to take a look... He sells them on his site ... I'm gunna go with what stu says... HSS doesn't seem like the best route to go when it comes to chisels... I have found with all my carbon steel vintage chisels in comparison to say even some of my a2 plane blades, that sometimes having to sharpen more often to gain even tad bit keener edge isn't the worst thing in the world... I find it keeps me practiced and in the routine of sharpening... may sound weird but it makes sense to me ;) haha

[Jack Curtis]

Maybe we can all get together at the next WIA with our Japanese chisels in hand and have a dueling chisels entertainment. To the death?

[James Bird]

Hey David, Im not sure if you saw my question down here at the bottom by any chance? It would be awesome if you could give me a little insight on this.... if you have time! let me know! thanks!

[David Weaver]

As for sharpening stones I'm amazed at the cost of and interest in them

When I started using razors, I was surprised to find that there are people who are *much worse* than me in terms of having a problem with curiosity regarding sharpening stones.

But it is safe for me to say that in my cold shop (where I can't soak stones in the winter), other than for gouges, there is nothing that a minimal kit with two oilstones can do to come remotely close to two shapton pros that cost $150 (or $200 with a diamond hone to flatten them).

I think the fascination with the sharpening stones is partly due to the fact that they literally do work better than vintage stones, faster and sharper. It takes less time for me to get an edge on shapton pros than it does with two oilstones (that cost about the same as the shapton pros), and the edge from the shaptons is (much) more keen and a lot less critical of what type of steel is applied.

Not that good oilstones are cheap or you can't use them. A soft/hard ark followed by a finishing arkansas stone is a really nice combination, but the edge keenness for tools will never match modern stones and I always question myself after I use them for a while why I don't just use one set of modern stones. The natural types do satisfy curiosity, though.

It's arguable that it doesn't make great sense to sharpen gouges with oilstones, either. Once they're in shape, a powered strop keeps them sharper in less time, and the only thing I can think of where that's not suitable is the relief on the v tool, which can be done on any stone.

Presumably, roy uses oilstones? There is a big movement of folks who say "what would roy do?", but the real question for people doing finer work should be "what would george do?".

Spydercos.

[David Weaver]

Hey David, Im not sure if you saw my question down here at the bottom by any chance? It would be awesome if you could give me a little insight on this.... if you have time! let me know! thanks!


Sorry, James, I missed it...which question? The one about sizes?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Oh, and also what sizes would you recommend getting in slicks and DT and even bench chisels If I were to go with the route I mentioned... I know this varies but I am wondering what your opinion would be.

Assuming this is the post you asked David to comment on, I'm not David, but to me it always seems like the answer depends on what you're doing or want to do.

I've very rarely regretted having another chisel - there are times when a tool is just the thing for something, or I just knicked the edge of something and don't want to resharpen until I'm done doing what I'm doing.

But if you're making primarily jewelry boxes or drawers with tiny pins you're going to be thinking of different sizes than if you're making broad tails in blanket chests. It's often easier to size the work to the tool to a degree, so think about what you're going to make, or what size tails appeal to you and do some calculations from there. I you're doing broad tails, whether or not the pins are tiny, think about what wood you're working - often I'd rather make multiple passes across a wide socket for a tail with a 1/2" or 3/4" chisel than try and chop or pare a full inch or more width in one go.

Certainly if you have a dovetail angle you prefer, you can ensure that you have a chisel small enough by figuring out the thinnest stock you'd use for your pin board, and then making a triangle of the dovetails slope, and the boards thickness as height. Solve the triangle for the baseline. Obviously, in practice, the baseline will be a bit wider, as even if you entered the cuts from the same kerf, there's still the thickness of the kerf to deal with.

I don't worry about the fanciest chisel with the super narrow sizes though - once they get that small, in a lot of woods, you could sharpen the end of a jewelers screwdriver and pare to the baseline fairly well.

With paring chisels, I'm often a fan of as big, and broad chisel as will fit - I use a 40mm chisel sharpened a low bevel angle for most all of my paring tasks, and sometimes I wish I had a bigger one, maybe 50mm. I've also got a 1/4" (although I think 3/8" might be better) traditional western paring chisel that I really like because it's got a bit of flex to the blade. I like those two sizes, maybe something around 5/8"-3/4" would be helpful too. But I may be using a paring chisel differently than you intend to. Do the tasks you intend to use the chisel for require fitting it into joinery or a through an awkward space? For me they get used for adjusting things or trimming things that are relatively in the open, or to smooth or chamfer a surface that needs to look smooth but doesn't need to be perfectly flat.

[Mel Fulks]

The dueling has to be done with the matched pestles.

[Mel Fulks]

I am a great admirer of all our nation's great GWs. He uses ,If I remember correctly ,3 things of modern make.I have not read any thing about him buying a drawer full of them or buying and selling them like vintage sport cars. I have known a lot of workmen who kept buying sharpening equipment when their real problem was lousy tools. I think there is a sufficient body of old work to show even provential cabinet makers knew how to choose good steel and sharpen it. We all like to collect stuff. I have no problem with it. Just hate to see workmates focus on the wrong problem. When someone picks up one of my chisels and asks me to sharpen theirs, I tell them "no one can sharpen your chisels".Then I help them.

[David Weaver]

I don't know what the state of sharpening may be for most people, but I am assuming that most people here could get anything sharp with any medium. That includes george, who has some of the finest sharpening apparatus (stones especially) that I have ever seen, he's pointed out here several times that he went through everything available about 40 years ago to find the best medium and landed on the spydercos.

Hopefully in the days of being able to get functional tools (really very good ones, well beyond functional) from 2nd and third world countries, nobody is suffering for lack of something that can take an hold an edge. Perhaps jr. carpenters not subjected to the mania that goes on here might be.

But for folks here, it's not the stones, and it's probably not the tools. What gets people hooked on stones is curiosity once they *know* how to sharpen. I don't think you can have the same level of curiosity about the different stones if you don't know how to use them.

The same conversation comes up on razor boards, where you do have to be much better and more precise with sharpening and the condition of the edge.
The progression always goes:
step 1: blame the razor
step 2: blame the stone when the razor is a fine maker
step 3: get to the user being the problem when the razor is found to be a good one and the stone to be one of the recommended

The nice thing about razors at least is that the bar set to figure out whether or not it's step 3 is very high. Any deficiency results in pain. The only thing I can think of similar for woodworking tools would be the ability of a plane to make a true 3 ten thousandths of an inch shaving.

At any rate, I think the desire to try all of these different things and trade them around is not with those with deficient tools, not with those who are workmen, and not with those who don't know how to sharpen.

Speaking of....I learned something new recently that goes along with this, in trying to figure out where the market for frictionite stones might be, a seller on a razor board told me that the people paying top dollar for frictionite razor hones (regarded as the best artificial razor hones ever made) are.....

... competitive timbermen in australia.

Hobbyists will never be like workmen, just like workmen in their hobbies will often not behave the same way that they do in their job. It just wouldn't be much fun to put job-like constrictions on hobbies unless your true hobby is emulating other people.

[James Bird]

Sorry, James, I missed it...which question? The one about sizes?



"So how about this... what if I bought just a few sizes of "bench chisel" just for mallet use or chopping... and got the Iyoroi's
Then maybe got 2 or 3 slicks
and maybe 2 or 3 Dovetail profile chisels...

What do you think of that Derek?

And also if you do think thats a good Idea, what brand slicks would you recommend getting? and what brand Dovetailers? and even what brand bench chisels? would you still recommend the Iyoroi if all I was using them for was chopping?


thanks again for the help, It is a real treat to get advice from you guys. Definitely Invaluable."

(This Question, and the one you posted too...haha)

[James Bird]

Assuming this is the post you asked David to comment on, I'm not David, but to me it always seems like the answer depends on what you're doing or want to do.

I've very rarely regretted having another chisel - there are times when a tool is just the thing for something, or I just knicked the edge of something and don't want to resharpen until I'm done doing what I'm doing.

But if you're making primarily jewelry boxes or drawers with tiny pins you're going to be thinking of different sizes than if you're making broad tails in blanket chests. It's often easier to size the work to the tool to a degree, so think about what you're going to make, or what size tails appeal to you and do some calculations from there. I you're doing broad tails, whether or not the pins are tiny, think about what wood you're working - often I'd rather make multiple passes across a wide socket for a tail with a 1/2" or 3/4" chisel than try and chop or pare a full inch or more width in one go.

Certainly if you have a dovetail angle you prefer, you can ensure that you have a chisel small enough by figuring out the thinnest stock you'd use for your pin board, and then making a triangle of the dovetails slope, and the boards thickness as height. Solve the triangle for the baseline. Obviously, in practice, the baseline will be a bit wider, as even if you entered the cuts from the same kerf, there's still the thickness of the kerf to deal with.

I don't worry about the fanciest chisel with the super narrow sizes though - once they get that small, in a lot of woods, you could sharpen the end of a jewelers screwdriver and pare to the baseline fairly well.

With paring chisels, I'm often a fan of as big, and broad chisel as will fit - I use a 40mm chisel sharpened a low bevel angle for most all of my paring tasks, and sometimes I wish I had a bigger one, maybe 50mm. I've also got a 1/4" (although I think 3/8" might be better) traditional western paring chisel that I really like because it's got a bit of flex to the blade. I like those two sizes, maybe something around 5/8"-3/4" would be helpful too. But I may be using a paring chisel differently than you intend to. Do the tasks you intend to use the chisel for require fitting it into joinery or a through an awkward space? For me they get used for adjusting things or trimming things that are relatively in the open, or to smooth or chamfer a surface that needs to look smooth but doesn't need to be perfectly flat.


I am interested in building larger furniture, cabinets, dressers, beds, I have done the small stuff for the last few years and am ready to move on, not to say that I wont still make the occasional small box though... as I enjoy it.

But, I do have MANY MANY western chisels... so in this instance those things you've asked about my specific work don't really apply to this specific answer i'm seeking... it's not like if I dont get a 1.5mm or 1/8" Japanese chisel that I will be without a chisel in that size when I need it. I own 2 or 3 western chisels of this size. So really what I was asking was, for general use, 9 times out of 10, if I was to buy 3 or 4 bench chisels, 2 maybe 3 slicks, and maybe 3 DT chisels TO START OUT w/ japanese chisels... what BRAND, and SIZE would YOU recommend if YOU were going out today to but them... assuming YOU have no japanese chisels haha... weird question, I know, but i'm curious.

[David Weaver]

I personally would buy either one 21 or 24mm japanese parer (usu (flat back) , not shinogi (triangular)), koyamaichi - without a doubt. Small maker touch with mass produced price. Only way I wouldn't do that would be if I felt like I needed a parer of that size that would fit between tight tails to make a release cut ( I don't do that ).

I would also buy a koyamaichi white steel dovetail chisel in a size 1 or 2 mm narrower than your pin space between dovetails.

And then I would buy one regular bench chisel (oire nomi? maybe that's not specific enough, but stu knows what we're talking about when we say "regular chisel") in 12 to 24mm, whatever size you think you might use a lot - so you can get a feel for sharpening a regular bench chisel. The cross section in the KI dovetail chisel will make it a bit hard to get a feel for them on the stones, and just what they're like.

Blue steel for the parer (not critical) and white steel for the bench chisels (also not critical).

Plain old red oak handles, you can spice those up with something else if you want, but the red oak does just fine with a hoop at the end of the struck chisels.

If you have another size of chisel that you use an awful lot, then you can maybe add that to the order. When price is any object at all, Koyamaichi (not koyama....but koyamaichi) is definitely my favorite maker. When you go up in price from there, what you get functionally is little better than what he offers as a maker.

[Jason Steward]

stuart Tierney
You know, I had no idea I was in the presence of the ultimate authority when it came to chisels. My mistake, one mans opinion is not as good as another. Thanks for your input.

[Stuart Tierney]

stuart Tierney
You know, I had no idea I was in the presence of the ultimate authority when it came to chisels. My mistake, one mans opinion is not as good as another. Thanks for your input.

I knew this was going to happen.

You've taken it very much the wrong way, which is unfortunate but that's how it is.


The problem is that for most folks, I am considered something of an authority on Japanese chisels, and Japanese tools in general.

The reason for my being considered something of an authority is this.

In the past week I've communicated with Tsunesaburo (planes), Koyamaichi (chisels), Ouchi (chisels), Tasai (planes and chisels), Mitsukawa (saws), Sigma Power (sharpening stones), Suehiro (sharpening stones), Kiyohisa (chisels) and a couple other folks making Japanese tools.

When I rattle off those names, they aren't some brand name in a catalog, they're people. They're people I have on speed dial on my phone. They're people I've been bought meals by, and I've bought meals for them. When they see me, it's not a case of "how can I help you, sir?" it's more a case of "how are the kids/wife?"

I know them, they know me. Many of them have visited my home.

If you're still reading, what I'd like you to know is that your chisels are quite simply awesome pieces of gear. I love the things because they're reasonably cheap and as tough as nails. A little finicky to sharpen, but once you get over that hurdle, fantastic chisels.

But they're not the king of the hill when it comes to toughness, edge holding and whatnot. They just aren't. Just because your favorite tool vendor said they are XYZ and that you were unaware of anything different doesn't change that fact.

I am sorry, but that's just the way it is.

I don't know what else to say here, other than I am disappointed that you became upset with me. It was not my intention, and in hindsight I suppose I could have worded my answer differently. It would not have changed what I intended to say, but I probably could have been more delicate about it.

Sorry.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I predict a stu goes into hiding for a while. I hope not, though! Here's the historical pattern - stu has access to more information, stu disagrees with someone, folks get upset because they want the boards to be like a fraternity, stu is put off and disappears for a while. Then we lose access to good information.

Last thing we need is to be stuck only with the sellers who tell you "that's proprietary" when you ask them what's in something they sell. Stu doesn't do that. I asked on a youtube video about a stone that Ken Schwartz was pushing "what's the binder". The response, "that's proprietary information". Really? Jeez, that's kind of like being told you can't look under the hood of a car before you buy it.

My favorite sellers are the ones who will disagree with me and tell me why they do (and 60% of the time, stu and I argue all the time - that quotes for Weatherman fans). And the ones who know the details and will be able to tell you about them.

[Jack Curtis]

stuart Tierney
You know, I had no idea I was in the presence of the ultimate authority when it came to chisels. My mistake, one mans opinion is not as good as another. Thanks for your input.

Generally speaking, that's true; and the main trick in the tool world is finding those who have qualified opinions. I don't know whether your Texas guy is one of them; but it does appear you've decided to trust him based on very little evidence. So go for it, perhaps in a year or two your guy will prove to be qualified opinionated. Meanwhile, I'd stick with Stu and a few others who are really experts in Japanese tools, already proven to many of us.

[Mike Henderson]

My favorite sellers are the ones who will disagree with me and tell me why they do (and 60% of the time, stu and I argue all the time - that quotes for Weatherman fans). And the ones who know the details and will be able to tell you about them.
That's true for many things, including people who provide services, like plumbing and electrical. If they're willing to take the time to explain why they prefer a certain approach, and their reasons are logical, it tells me they're experienced and have thought through multiple approaches. After a couple of sessions like that, I just trust them.

Mike

[Steve Friedman]

I predict a stu goes into hiding for a while. I hope not, though! Here's the historical pattern - stu has access to more information, stu disagrees with someone, folks get upset because they want the boards to be like a fraternity, stu is put off and disappears for a while. Then we lose access to good information.

+1. No question that Stu can be blunt and that can rub folks the wrong way. But, for many of us, his continued contribution to this forum (and others) makes a big difference.

I think the issue is that Stu doesn't think of himself as tool seller. I honestly believe that his posts are intended only to share information, not to sell tools. As a result, Stu tends to express his opinions and observations bluntly - not tempered the way he would if he were trying to sell tools.

Steve

[Rick Fisher]

I have 3 x Tasai paring chisels .. 1/2, 3/4 and 1" .. They are art .. Amazing quality and simply stunning.. I may build a shadow box with a glass front to store them in the den .. lol

Having said that, I have a Matsumura 1/4" Mortise chisel. Its not even in the league of my paring chisels.. but its a great tool.. It holds and edge really well and is rugged enough to do the job ..

My wife bought me a 13# grit stone from Stu for our anniversary.. Great wealth of knowledge and good guy to deal with.. When the day comes that I will add to my Japanese tools, I will probably talk to Stu..

If I can find a pic of the Tasai paring chisels, I will post it ..


Later...

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Chis1.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Chis2.jpg

In my humble opinion, these are exceptional paring chisels, but not at all needed for someone to own great paring chisels.. I am quite confident that there are a dozen makers of great quality chisels who's product would be equally great to use in the shop, probably better ..

I would look at the nicer offerings from Stu.. Nishiki, Fujihiro, Miyanaga, Funahiro.. There are a whole bunch of choices.. All are going to be excellent..

One chisel that I would love to see in person and use is the Nishiki extra thin paring chisel .. I have a feeling they would be very nice to use ..

If you want " cool factor " Stu sells the "dragon chisels" that are made by Koyamaichi, and they really aren't that expensive for a lifetime tool.

Its got more to do with being able to put an edge on the tool than buying the absolute best.. I am sure there are plenty of folks on this site ( most ) who could put a better edge on a stanley chinese chisel than I can accomplish on these, I am still learning .. End of the day, most quality Japanese chisels will hold an edge for a long time .. Its about comfort, usage.. and sometimes collect-ability .. We use them to cut wood.. not steel or stone..

[Jason Steward]

I wasn't being offended, I was bowing to your knowledge. After your comment on my post I went back and looked up some of your posts. Its obvious that you have much greater breath of experience that I will have on this subject. I can tell you that the edge retention is what I most value about these chisels, and I don't find them difficult to sharpen. That said, perhaps I was over-zealous in my endorsement of these chisels, I haven't tried everything. I do know when I am banging out dovetails I'm glad these are the chisels I own.

[Stuart Tierney]

I wasn't being offended, I was bowing to your knowledge. After your comment on my post I went back and looked up some of your posts. Its obvious that you have much greater breath of experience that I will have on this subject. I can tell you that the edge retention is what I most value about these chisels, and I don't find them difficult to sharpen. That said, perhaps I was over-zealous in my endorsement of these chisels, I haven't tried everything. I do know when I am banging out dovetails I'm glad these are the chisels I own.

I don't know that I'd like them for dovetails, but they're as tough as nails.

(Actually, that's kinda what they're supposed to be for. Cutting through nails...)

There's a whole range of tools designed for renovation work, and there's two angles of attack. Either make the tool cheap and practically disposable (Any Japanese chisel/saw for $20 or less falls in this category) or make it close to indestructible and/or easy to fix. So you end up with saws that were made for wood, but will cut through steel, planes with stainless steel sheet nailed onto the sole and chisels like the ones you have.

If I have to go for a renovation type tool (and I try to avoid it!), no prizes for guessing which ones I choose. When something absolutely needs to be hacked out without mercy, well, you could very easily do a lot worse.

Actually, your appreciation of these chisels has made me reconsider them a little more. These things are actually the 'better' chisels Koyama Hardware make, with a specially selected steel for the job. There are other 'full' HSS chisels which use common HSS and are a little cheaper.

The nice point about these things is that you can get stuck into them with a grinder and no harm done.

But by all means be enthusiastic about your chisels. They are at the very least worthy of being enthusiastic about.

I am still sorry I jumped so hard on you, and kind of wish none of this had ever happened. It turned into some kind of mutant thing where I got praises heaped on me I don't think I'm worthy of and became rather embarrassing. It's also made me think about the whole sordid mess a little more than I'd like.

At the same time, you would not believe how much myth, rumour and complete BS I've had to wade through and then sift to get the nuggets of truth out of. Often, the truth isn't even there, but I still sift for it because I do need to be completely sure and honest so it doesn't come back to bite me at some point in the future. When I see something that isn't quite right, I tend to jump hard and fast if I can to nip it in the bud.

I admit I am fortunate that when I don't know something, I don't have to look very far to get the right answer. An email or phone call to the person who makes the tool usually sets things straight.

But still, some folks don't like it when you slaughter their sacred cow in front of their eyes, even when the fellow who is responsible for said bovine hands you the knife to do the deed with.

(Actually, the next cow will be done with a saw. Tomorrow.)

Stu.

[Jason Steward]

The nice thing about the texas guy is if you aren't satisfied, he will take them back. I started with a few and bought more, so I guess I am satisfied. I work everyday in my shop, and the tools I have get use on a regular basis. I like the high speed steel, it requires very little coddling, it performs the tasks I ask. Its not what I use for paring or carving, its what I use for the brute tasks of material removal. I like the fact that I don't have to go to the stones as often when working in oak, ash, bamboo, chestnut or other difficult materials. I like that I can give the chisels a micro bevel below 25 degrees and they don't damage as easily. I spent a lot of time refacing the primary bevel on these so that they would penetrate better, but I alter many of my tools and irons to perform the way I want them too. I think thats the beauty of hand tools over power tools, I don't ever remember customizing the saw teeth on a circular saw blade, or a band saw blade. But I can honestly say I have 7 differently configured irons for my jack plane. I do appreciate hearing what other people think and know, it allows me to expand my knowledge and experience.

[Frank Drew]

I agree with the positive things said about Ouchi chisels; (disclaimer: they're the only line of Japanese chisels that I have a lot of experience with) I've had a set for over thirty years and I've been very satisfied with them.

Stuart, I'm glad that you were able to add them to your catalog.

[David Weaver]

A whole set of those nomikatsu chisels went on ebay maybe yesterday? for $360. Unused. I hope someone here got them, that's a pretty good price.

Stu, is there going to be a point where you can pick up some of iyoroi's wares, or is that sealed up by (i can't remember the name of the importer, or exporter on your side) the group that fronts ice bear stuff to the US and UK? some of their stuff that *isn't* from the cheaper line is pretty good, and they have some sneaky cheap HSS chisels that you can only get over here if you're into an internet shopping cart guessing game.