Shaper Cutters/Input?

[alex grams]

I am looking at either getting the G1026 shaper from Grizzly, or the 3HP 4 Speed from Laguna (http://www.lagunatools.com/shapers/HD-Shaper_3).

I am also going to look at getting a 1/2-1hp power feeder down the road but this thread is more about cutters.

I am trying to make a baseline for which cutters/cutterheads I need to invest in. I have some upcoming projects where I need to do some raised panel work, and my router table has proven to work far from ideally for raised panels.

I ordered the shaper book from Lonnie Bird, but see that CMT/Frued/Laguna all have their own knives, but I am trying to make sure I don't get a type of cutter head that will limit me on a good selection of knives in the long run. I see 2 hole knives (CMT) , 3 hole knives (laguna/frued), and other styles (serrated).

I mainly want to build up a set for standard profiles (ogee/bead & cove/etc), but sets seem limited. Would I be better off getting a kit (which I really haven't found one yet that seems to have a majority of what I need) Laguna is offering their set (http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/shaper-cutter/Shaper-Start-Up-Set_3) for $395 (4@00 less than normal).

Are there any decent sets out there? I figure for my basic profiles a set would be a good idea, but for the raised panel/rail/stile maybe look at single cutters?

Lots of questions, thanks in advance for any input.

Regards,
-Alex
Thoughts/Input?

[Peter Kelly]

For profiles, I think you're probably better off with either the CMT (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=cmt+multiprofile+set) or Amana (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=amana+profile+pro) sets. Certainly less expensive than Laguna and I suspect they all come from the same factory anyway. Brazed tooling for cabinet or entry door making.

[Cary Falk]

I was going to suggest the Amana or CMT set as well. I wouldn't buy anything Laguna bases on all of the horror stores on net abotu bad CS.

[Peter Quinn]

The Amana profile pro set is a good value in molding knives. The CMT set offers exactly the same knives and is similarly a good value if you have a CMT dealer available to you. I happen to use Amana because I have several Amana dealers quite close to me, shipping is thus quick and reasonable. The Laguna insert set also offers the same knives but at a stiff markup. They do include quite a number of knives, but I' d rather choose the knives I want, didn't find that bundle suited my needs well.

Keep in mind these two hole insert heads, known generically as euro blocks, are limited to a 5/8" depth of profile by the thickness of the steel. For larger profiles a correlgated head is required.

For cabinet doors and entryassage I find individual cutter sets easier to use, be they insert or braised. This way you can change the set up to accommodate a variety of panel thicknesses, glass, material thicknesses, etc. For raised panels I like insert heads for their versatility, more profile choices from a single head, and cheaper than the equivalent number of braised heads. But if you require less profile choices braised heads may prove a cheaper option for the small shop.

[Carpenter Mark]

If you're in it for the long run, start with good 3 wing profile cutters with brazed carbide tips from a good manufacturer like Freeborn, Freud, Chas. Schmidt,etc. They will be useable in both man made and natural materials. HSS insert heads will wear quickly and some shops will want you to send the whole head for grinding.Avoid the cheap offshore cutters, they don't cut worth a damn. Get a 2 knife corrugated head for custom profiles. A straight set of carbide cutters- 1/4", 1/2"', 3/4", 1"- will handle grooves ,rabbetts and short tenons. I agree with Peter on the cope and pattern sets, they're easier to use in general for door and sash work, but custom profiles are easy with the corrugated head. A corrugated insert head for panels in nice to have (I have one,use it the least) but carbide three wings are easiest to use, and last in all materials.
Good tooling is expensive, but buy the best you can and cry once.

[Jeff Monson]

I'd recemmond starting with the Amana profile pro set for basic profiles. I started with a set adding profiles as I need them. The extra knife sets are not too expensive and cut very well.

For raised panels, I have a Freud RP2000 cutter set for the panels, again having easy to change knives works well for me. I have the Freud RS1000 kit for rails and stiles, I dont have too many profiles yet, but they are inexpensive to add when needed.

I've become a pretty big fan of insert tooling. Shaper cutters are expensive, and it really sucks to need a different profile and spend another $200.00 for a new one. I find a $25 to $50 set of knives more attractive.

[Jeff Duncan]

The biggest factor is how much work you plan on having go through your shop? If your going to do a lot of raised panels I would invest the money in an 'Innovator' head. If your going to do a kitchens worth then I may just buy a carbide tipped cutter instead. Same goes for cope and stick profiles.....if your going to do a lot you'll want to start looking into insert tooling. A handful here and there and brazed tooling may be more economical!

The Euro blocks are incredibly useful as you can combine profiles to get a limitless number of shapes. They are also very easy to grind as they are thin knives and they lock into position making it a no brainer. You really can't go wrong picking up one of these sets for what they cost!

Now as far as other tooling I buy what I need when I need it. The benefit is you price it into the job so your not investing your own money on stuff you think you may need! Corrugated heads are a great tool to have, but a bit pricey. If you go out and buy a 2" head just to have it, then your first use for it requires a 3" head....well now your buying another head! Now you could buy a head bigger than what you think you'll need, but then you may find yourself swinging a 1" tall knife on a 4" head....not ideal;)

Lastly don't put the feeder on the side burner.....this is a necessity with most of these heads! A router table pales in comparison with what a shaper can do in terms of physical damage. A 2" tall knife in a corrugated head would do some very nasty damage to a hand/arm that gets too close!!!

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Kelly]

If you do a search for "SCMI T-130 Shaper" on Fleabay there's a nice looking one in Florida one that includes a Steff feeder. Asking price of $2,500. Also some decent looking Deltas and Powermatic ones in the $500-$700 range there too.

[Rod Sheridan]

Lots of good advice in this thread, I mostly use the Euro block heads with steel knives, I also have insert heads and brazed carbide cutters.

The Euro blaock head is great, the knives are inexpensive and surface finish is outstanding in solid wood.

As to a feeder, as has been indicated it's really a necessity, not something you should put off buying.

Note that very few cutters will meet the MAN standard for hand feeding, including the Euro block with or without chip limitation. This means you shouldn't be hand feeding these cutters, hand fed cutters have a MAN rating, power feed are MEC.

The issue is chip limitation and maximum projection of the cutters, to significantly reduce kick back.

I suggest that you purchase The Spindle Moulder Handbook, it's the only up to date book on shapers I've found, the currently available US books I have are decades out of date on modern work practices, cutters and safety.

Have fun, buy a 1/2 HP feeder (at least) immediately and enjoy better quality work and keep your fingers safe.............Regards, Rod.

P.S. The euro block head I have is a 4" diameter steel head, 1.25" bore from General International

[alex grams]

Thanks for the input guys.

Rod, a power feeder is a must for me. I whacked a finger last year on my router table and got lucky in that it is only skinny, and not permanantly damaged or limited in use. Laguna is running a decent sale, so I may look to see if it can get a steff feeder (3 wheel, Model 2033, .5hp). I figure with that and a shaper, they can cut the price a little. If they can offer some more incentive, I will bump up to the 2044, 4 wheel, .7hp.

I will probably look at the CMT/Amana basic profile set, and go ahead and buy the Freud RS2000. I do a lot of flat panel doors, so rail/stile would be a nice set for me to use, plus they are carbide, which will be nice vs hss. Then I can look at raised panel sets later.

Another question, for moulding. Would I need a new head for moulding, or are there raised panel heads that have moulding cutters?

I still dont see in the amana/cmt sets a few of the bits i need for an upcoming project (beading/ogee). Maybe I am just blind.

Does anyone have any input on the steff feeders? I seem to have read some good input on them, I just don't want to overspend on what I need. I think 1/2hp would be nice, but 4 wheel and >.75hp would be more ideal.

Also, what sled would you guys recommend for use? I see the DELTA 43-188 Sliding Shaper Jig (http://www.amazon.com/DELTA-43-188-Sliding-Shaper-Jig/dp/B00004TQG7) is well reviewed. Are there any competitors?

[David Kumm]

Moldings are generally run vertically if very wide and the shaper needs to be pretty stout to handle the force. I'm probably in the minority but I'm fine with brazed cutters. Ebay and CL are good sources of slightly used panel cutters as is Oella Saw and Tool. Get full 1.25 bore cutters and run between 4" and 7" diameter cutters if possible. Now that Univer is gone Steff is the pick of the feeder litter although the smaller ones have some Asian parts. The 2034,2038, 2044, and 2048 are good units. The best shaper configuration is the horizontal mounted motor units made by Comatic but they are pricey. Four wheel are nice but kind of big for a 3 hp shaper. You can make your own sled but also check out the Aigner cope accessory. One of the few reasonably priced Aigner units. Just don't try to get too aggressive as you are spinning some big cutters and 3 hp is running towards the small side. Not so much the motor as the quill assembly. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Alex....are you doing this for a living or as a hobby? If your doing it for a living you may want to step up to a slightly heavier shaper, especially if your going to run any larger moldings. If it's just some jobs on the side then that's probably a pretty decent machine to get going with.

For moldings your going to want either a Euro block or a corrugated head. Raised panel heads are primarily for raised panels and unless you have a molding profile that's similar to a panel raise, your going to need a different head. Euro block is great for smaller profiles or built up one's. Corrugated is necessary for larger, (over 2") moldings.

Steff's seem OK and there are a lot of them out there in use! I had one, but only used it once before I sold it.....just had too many feeders and not enough shapers at the time;) I'd go for the .75 hp if you can swing it. Bigger feeders usually have the better quality stands which is the biggest difference between a good feeder and an OK one!

good luck,
JeffD

[alex grams]

Thanks Jeff/David.

This is a full time hobby/home setup, so while bigger would be nicer, like you said I Think this machine would suit me well.

Is the advantage of corrugated that you can match up different blades and align the intersection of the two for a lot more profile options?

I looked up retailers for corrugated heads, but they are all 3.5-4" diameter. Do you have any links to other retailers who would have them in larger diameters?

I am definitily going for the .75hp (2034 power feeder). Though it is only another $150 for the 4 wheels, so I am up in the air on the 3 vs 4 wheel feeders, though 4 wheels may be a little large for my needs. Thoughts?

Like I said, I seem to be having the most difficulty deciding which heads/inserts/tooling I need to buy. It is mainly a function of becomming familiar with which retailers are out there, who has the best selection, and which are interchangable and most economical for my needs. Any websites with good selections of heads/cutters would be appreciated.

Thanks Again.
-Alex

[joe milana]

Alex, the corrugated head accepts knives of different thickness & can cut a lot deeper profile. They're steel as opposed to aluminum as well. 4" is plenty big! By the time you add the knives, you're up to 6" or more. see http://www.cggschmidt.com/. A two knife head is what you want. Corrugated knives cost more. If you end up with a machine that takes a 3/4" spindle, ebay has tons of great deals on used (and even new) cutters all the time. Some 1 1/4" too.

[Jeff Duncan]

Joe summed it up nicely, 4" is as large as your going to want/need. Not only can you cut deeper profiles, but you can cut taller profiles. If you want to do a 4" high chair rail your going to need 4"+ high knives and a head to hold them! Your not going to be using multiple knives unless they're short ones and you just happen to find 2 that go together. With corrugated you get knives ground to what you need to cut. Figure roughly $50 +/- an inch for the steel. FWIW I buy stuff from Connecticut tool and directly from CG Schmidt.

I recommend going with the 1-1/4" heads right off the bat. Bigger spindles are better as they'll have exponentially more resistance to flexing than a 3/4" spindle. And nothing is worse than starting out on a 3/4" spindles and then having to change your tooling out a couple years later when you upgrade!

As far as number of wheels...I don't think you can go wrong having an extra one! whether or not you really need it is another question? I have a 4 wheeler along with 2 - 3 wheelers and they all get the job done nicely. Where the 4 wheeler comes in handiest is running longer thicker stock like for passage doors for instance. It's nice having the extra help when your feeding 2-1/4" thick x 5" wide x 8' long stiles in maple:eek: Also when running long moldings the extra wheel is a bonus. If your mostly doing cabinet doors and such you probably don't really need the extra wheel???

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

Alex, when you get to 4" high cutter blocks and four wheel feeders your accessories are dwarfing the size of the machine. I started with a similar machine and it worked pretty well but it is scary to spin big tooling against hardwood and not know for sure the strength of the assembly. If the machine has 1" spindles it isn't meant to run heavy 1.25 cutters even if bushed out. Look as well at used machines. You can get a heavier unit for a similar price if you get lucky. You will spend way more in tooling and accessories than on the machine so choose carefully so the machine warrants the tooling cost. Even for hobby use a shaper is not the machine to underengineer. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with most of above.For shapers I like the older style ,not all boxed in like new ones; that way it's easier to clamp on fences and feather boards etc. Feeders I like used just because I want good Western Roller tires,don't want to have to buy new tires for new machine. Multiple speed shapers with changeable spindles let you run anything without ever having to upgrade and allow you to take advantage of used tooling deals .Raised panels. I only use M2 steel or Tangtung type 3wing heads for real wood. Much less tear out and much better surface. A small raise,say one inch or so ,I can run most woods and not sand the raise at all.Larger than that sometime get only 150 grit on the end grain . Carbide for MDF only where panels are concerned.

[Stephen Cherry]

Alex, if you're not in a hurry, I would wait until a scmi t110 with a steff feeder pops up at auction or craigslist, etc. These machines are very common bare bones industrial quality machines. I got one, with a delta (steff) three wheel 1 hp feeder for about 850. That was a good deal, but I've seen better and worse, and 1200 should get you a nice one with a feeder attached.

This is about the smallest, cheapest machine that you should never outgrow. It will turn just about any cutter you would like to use. Also, there are tons of used 1.25 cutters out there, at varying prices. 1.25 is much more common that 3/4 in a commercial machine, so you might as well get on the bandwagon. I have a delta hd shaper, and it is OK, but it does not instill confidence for spinning big cutters. It is more about the rigidity of the bearing-spindle assembly than HP. The t110 is about 800 lbs, double the weight of the 3 hp machines, but movable on a mobile base without a lot of effort.

For insert profile heads, corrugated can go deeper and taller, but these things are like airplane propellers. Not to be used lightly, and the feeder is always the best way to go. If you do mortise and tenon, the shaper is a great way to cut most of the tenon in one swipe. Also, if you want to do patterns, the byrd heads are nice.

[Peter Quinn]

Is the advantage of corrugated that you can match up different blades and align the intersection of the two for a lot more profile options?

I looked up retailers for corrugated heads, but they are all 3.5-4" diameter. Do you have any links to other retailers who would have them in larger diameters?



A few basics on insert knives from the C G Schmidt site.

8. Maximum Knife Projection: The following two rules can be used along with all other proper setup and safety procedures to help determine maximum knife extension.

a. Never grind a profile deeper than 3 times the thickness of the knife
b. There should be at least as much knife engaged inside the head as there is extended out from
the head body.

So to reiterate what I mentioned earlier, the primary advantage of corrugated back cutters is that they are capable of much greater projection than the 4MM thick insert knives (this is the thickness of the standard euro block HSS insert knives). I'm told that the maximum projection of any 4MM thick knife (the kind used on the Amana, CMT, etc euro blocks) is actually closer to 5/8" which exceeds that 3X rule, but thats apparently allowable, perhaps it is a height/depth combined ratio? If grinding your own you may want to stick to that 3X rule of thumb. They make corrugated back knife stock in 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" , carbide tipped, and a style they call "bak-pak" which is steel backers with double corrugations that hold carbide insert cutters in front of them ($$$$). The tooling grinder you choose will/should be able to tell you appropriate thickness of steel for a given profile. The euro block sets are great for what they can do, like small coves, small panel molds, quarter rounds, beads, etc. But if you get into deeper moldings, larger bolection type moldings that need a deep profile plus rabbit, or a profile taller than 50MM, they run out of capacity. So its nice to have both options eventually.

Match up different blades? No, not IME. Typically the entire profile of the cut you want to make is ground on a single pair of knife blanks, and there is extra steel on each side of the profile for strength, so stacking in a head is not usually an option. Plus, there is no real mechanism for vertical alignment in the head which makes aligning multiple knives in one head difficult. A single pair can usually be referenced from a flat table quite simply.

As to the corrugated heads, 4" is the defacto largest diameter molding head available for a shaper. Bigger is available, but typically only in 40MM bore or other such large format for multi head molders. Trust me and the others, you don't need an insert knife molding head larger than 4". Further, the class of shaper you are describing as appropriate for your needs (3HP 1" Spindle) is not IMPO even close to being able to utilize a 4" tall head, and will struggle with a 3" tall head unless it is a multi pass approach. You will get chatter, you could bend a spindle, it will eat bearings. Danger Will Robinson. A 2" head works well, multiple passes may be required depending on total height/depth of cut/hardness of stock. Its not a simple formula but a series of variables in conjunction that will determine the best approach to moldings. They make corrugated insert panel raisers, but they are made to raise a panel field either above or below the work, typically 1 1/2" deep + or -, they can't really be made to do edge molding such as for table tops, applied moldings for cabinet work, etc. They are special purpose heads.

I prefer insert carbide heads for panel raising. Insert carbide is a much finer grade, it takes a keener edge than braised tooling because it is not so coarse/porous. I'm told that braising carbide must be coarse to key to the steel head via the braising medium, insert knives are a mechanical connection and thus are much finer grain is possible. That translates to less sanding, less tearout. HSS might ultimately be sharper when new, but not for long IME. I'm using the Freud RP2000, not the best in class, but very good performance and a great value for the small shop. You can also get the head solo and add profiles as needed for less money at start up.

As to the actual shaper, thats a pretty personal equation. I just sold a 3HP delta with a 1" spindle, moved up to a 7HP production shaper that weights over 800#. Sits next to a 5HP minimax with 1 1/4" spindle. Larger used industrial machines (and some smaller ones) are all three phase, so factor that into the equation. I used the 3HP class machine for years, got lots of work out of it, was very happy but never completely satisfied. For cabinets, raised panels, some pattern work, it works pretty well. Get into making larger custom moldings, it runs out of steam. So you have to plan to use it for what it is, don't try to push it to its limits constantly. So many shaper users chant "GO BIGGER" because we all started smaller, been there, glad to be beyond that now. But lots of others are happy using a 3HP machine for what it can do, it remains infinitely more powerful than a router table. But keep that router table too, it offers options the shaper can't, very complimentary pair.

[Mel Fulks]

Overlapping corg. knives is possible with a four knife head, using 2 balanced pairs and can occasionally eliminate 1 set up .Using matched knives is always best and safest but skill gained from experienced supervision can find some appropriate exceptions. The old square moulder heads were often used with 4 differently profiled knives,but one learned it from someone who was skilled, not by uncalculated experimentation . One thing everyone needs to understand about safety is that the "rules" these days are written by lawyers not by engineers or skilled workmen. Some information that was routinely in printed instructions in the past is now withheld,safety is simply what's safe for them. That is why you can buy a water hose with a written warning about shooting water into an electrical outlet.

[joe milana]

Don't you just love a good shaper thread???:cool:

[David Hawxhurst]

i've looking at the suggested sets for rail and stiles and non seem to have a shaker style. most of the doors i make are shaker style so who makes knives for the sets mentioned freud rs1000/2000, CMT (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=cmt+multiprofile+set) or Amana (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=amana+profile+pro).

[Jeff Monson]

i've looking at the suggested sets for rail and stiles and non seem to have a shaker style. most of the doors i make are shaker style so who makes knives for the sets mentioned freud rs1000/2000, CMT (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=cmt+multiprofile+set) or Amana (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=amana+profile+pro).

David, I like this set by Infinity, http://www.infinitytools.com/Raised-Panel-Door-Shaper-Cutters/products/1241/ The prices for their panel and rail sets seem reasonable. I also like the shaker style they offer in the insert heads.

[Peter Quinn]

David,

http://cheyennesales.com/catalog/cmtstockcutters.htm

Check out cutters 690.016 and 017. These make a square edge T&G profile in roughly 1/4" profile appropriate for doors, might work. Amana sells the same in their profile pro set. Another set that may work is this http://www.amanatool.com/shaper/missionstyle-shapercutters.html, and most freeborn sets will also do a square edge style out of the box.

[Larry Edgerton]

Lots of good information here by good people.

One thing I will add is that if you are buying a cutter that can use a guide bearing buy the bearing with the cutter so that you have it in the future. The cost is low and it opens up possibilities in the future.

Larry

[Peter Kelly]

Alex, if you're not in a hurry, I would wait until a scmi t110 with a steff feeder pops up at auction or craigslist, etc. These machines are very common bare bones industrial quality machines. I got one, with a delta (steff) three wheel 1 hp feeder for about 850. That was a good deal, but I've seen better and worse, and 1200 should get you a nice one with a feeder attached.
AS I'd mentioned, if you do a search on Ebay of "SCMI T130", you'll find one that includes a Steff feeder in Florida. Asking price is $2,500 but I'd wager you could get it for $2,200 as it's been listed for some time now.

[joe milana]

Peter, I believe that same shaper is listed on woodweb, along with a couple others that look like pretty good deals. The Holz Her with power feeder might be worth a look, and not too far from Texas!

[alex grams]

Thanks PEter. I am checking with the guy on the T130, though he quoted nearly $500 for shipping, plus i would need to spend another 200-300 for a phase converter (non-rotary). I made a counter, figuring if i can get that for around

I honestly think a 3hp machine with a good feeder would suit my needs, but I am heeding you guys advice, as I don't want to be back here in another year or two desiring a bigger machine.

A pm2700 would be great, but I can't see any locally. I contacted a few who had them on craigslist to see if they ship, but we will see.

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks PEter. I am checking with the guy on the T130, though he quoted nearly $500 for shipping, plus i would need to spend another 200-300 for a phase converter (non-rotary). I made a counter, figuring if i can get that for around

I honestly think a 3hp machine with a good feeder would suit my needs, but I am heeding you guys advice, as I don't want to be back here in another year or two desiring a bigger machine.

A pm2700 would be great, but I can't see any locally. I contacted a few who had them on craigslist to see if they ship, but we will see.

That's a robust machine. Guess what, if you get it and don't like it, you wouldn't loose your shirt.

As for the pm2700, I think you should go with scmi.

[alex grams]

Any input on the Holz Her MAchine? $1300 with a power feeder is a nice price if the machine (5hp) is a quality machine.

Would the 130 with feeder for $2700 shipped be a good deal? I would probably need to buy a phase converter (another $200 from grizzly for 2-5hp static). I Dont think I would need rotary, as I doubt i will be running this thing full load very often, or for any significant duration.

I presume it is no problem to run both the feeder and shaper on the same converter.

Thanks again for all the advice. Buy once, cry once.

[Peter Kelly]

That same SCMI T130 is listed on the woodweb[dot]com Machinery exchange for $2,500 and the price is "negotiable". You might see if the seller would come down on price or throw in free shipping or something. As Steve mentioned, the resale value on that machine is pretty good so you certainly wouldn't lose much if you sold it.

I don't think Holz-her has made/sold shapers in a very long time...

[Stephen Cherry]

Any input on the Holz Her MAchine? $1300 with a power feeder is a nice price if the machine (5hp) is a quality machine.

Would the 130 with feeder for $2700 shipped be a good deal? I would probably need to buy a phase converter (another $200 from grizzly for 2-5hp static). I Dont think I would need rotary, as I doubt i will be running this thing full load very often, or for any significant duration.

I presume it is no problem to run both the feeder and shaper on the same converter.

Thanks again for all the advice. Buy once, cry once.

One thing you could do is look at past irsauction.com results to see what machines have sold for. Shipping is shipping, and it's not cheap. That said, these machines will pop up closer to home. One thing I have learned is that there will always be another good deal. THis would maybe be an OK deal:

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/tls/3231270064.html

or this

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tls/3117186913.html

These are just two.

[alex grams]

Good grief the t130 weighs 1000lbs. That may be a bit on the massive side if I want to maintain some mobility in the shop. Would that be feasible to put on a mobile base?

[Mike Heidrick]

Good grief the t130 weighs 1000lbs. That may be a bit on the massive side if I want to maintain some mobility in the shop. Would that be feasible to put on a mobile base?

Leave on solid pallet and use a cheap pallet jack.

[David Kumm]

Don't let weight intimidate you. Zambus castors or a pallet jack are a small price to pay for the benefits of mass in the shaper world. It's all relative and you will get used to it. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

240124240125
Good grief the t130 weighs 1000lbs. That may be a bit on the massive side if I want to maintain some mobility in the shop. Would that be feasible to put on a mobile base?

Alex, just add two wheels to it and use a handle like the combination machines use. Piece of cake, very mobile, and it doesn't move when you don't want it to...Rod.

P.S. One photo shows a 1,000 pound machine on the two wheels, the second shows the tow bar I use for all my machines

[alex grams]

This is odd to me to feel intimidated by a machine, but that thing is 560kg (1200lbs). Plus, I just have an inherent nervousness about buying used machines. I don't like surprises, and with certain items I have enough confidence I could work around or detect any problems, shapers are a new avenue for me, and I still have a lot to learn.

I hate to think I would buy a new laguna w/ power feeder for (3hp machine, 1hp feedeR) for $400 more than the T130 w/ power feeder + freight+ a static phase converter

bleh, decisions decisions....

[Peter Kelly]

I have an inherent nervousness about buying anything from Laguna...

[alex grams]

Peter,
There really dont seem to be many machines in 3-5hp for the $1500-2200 range it seems. You start out cheap at <1k for the 2hp up to the grizzly 1026 3hp machine, then the big jump to the 5hp machines at $2800+

Have you personally had any bad experiences with Laguna? My brother got their 21" bandsaw and it has a very nice fit and finish and performance to it.

[David Kumm]

Alex, I agree that buying used can be scary at first and you have to do some homework. A heavy machine that is up and working isn't any more likely to fail than a new lower quality one though. The industrial stuff lasts basically forever. I have machines from the 1930s that are still dialed in like new. I've had both good and not so good Laguna experiences. I think that generally better values for the money can be found than their small machines and their customer service is legendary for being bad. You generally have to be willing to put in a converter for three phase though. I think it is the best shop upgrade available as it gives you so many choices but that is me. Dave

[alex grams]

The phase converter install is no proble, and I already have wiring for 30 amp e
220 to supply to the phase converter.

I am just pretty anal and like to keep my machines clean and sharp. I see some cosmetics on the machine I would like to clean up.

What are the common failure modes for shapers? Spindle bearings? What would that cost to replace that on the scmi 130?

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm not going to try to push you one way or another as I do think you could certainly get a lot of use out of the Laguna. I will just try to clarify the situation a bit from my personal opinion....the Laguna is a decent entry level shaper which has some nice little features for it's class. It's the basics of a shaper which are the most important though....size of the bearings and mass of the quill which houses the spindle. You also want a really smooth and easy to work height adjustment. Next in line but less common on that class of machine would be a brake and spindle lock. The other features machines like the Laguna and Powermatic 2700 are nice to haves....but do nothing to compensate for the smaller quills and bearings;) Again, I'm not saying you wouldn't be just fine with the smaller machine, just trying to point out the difference.

Now the SCM T-130 probably is a bit big for an entry level shaper, I would consider that machine as one step down from a Martin. You have a massive quill, probably several times longer than the smaller machines. You'll have larger and better quality bearings, as well as a spindle lock and brake. You'll have a really good solid fence and a feeder already attached! I would not expect to buy one of these machines in good running condition for less than $3k....so I'd say if you could have it shipped to your door for less than that....it would be a really good price!

As far as failures to be wary of....on a shaper of that vintage there a a few things...spindle bearings, my machine cost about $500 to replace. Motor bearings...much cheaper, I think less than $100 to replace. Brake pads could be worn....have to call SCM for that one. Bent spindle.....that would be your worst as it could cost you a pretty penny for a new one. For my machine a new spindle is somewhere around $800! Those are the basics but there is always the possibility of actual damage caused by negligence! I once looked at a T-130 at an auction that had parts of the quill assembly brazed and the sliding table was bolted in place! I don't know what they did to that machine to cause the damage, but it was something of a surprise to me and kept me from bidding on it! You shouldn't have to worry so much about that as you'll have the ability to ask the seller about condition.

You've got a tough decision to make. There is no question the SCM is a better quality machine in every way.....but do you need a machine that heavy? It's an older machine and assuming you don't make the trip to Florida, your buying sight unseen on someones word....a bit risky. So you have the risk of having to spend more money to get her up and running. In reality though, even if you dropped a total of $4k into the machine to get it going it's still a great value! There is nothing on the market new under $10k that's going to be even close to that machine! However you have to decide if you want/need that kind of machine! I know if it were closer to me I might have 4 shapers right now;)

good luck,
jeffD

[Peter Quinn]

If that machine were anywh.ere above Maryland it might be in my shop right now! A few thoughts to add confusion, I don't think 30A 220 is a big enough line to start / run a T130 plus feeder. You probably want a 10hp minimum RPC, that calls for 40A 220. I also wouldnt run a medium to heavy load machine on static convertor, just not worth the savings to me. It's not an easy decision to make, it's a bad week to drive to FLA too! I'm pretty conservative and wouldn't buy anything I could not hear run first and check out in person, or have checked out by a trusted reseller. Check freight quotes in advance of buying anything if shipping, I found some nice shaper values from resellers but shipping was going to add $800-1400 to the total cost which ate any savings in my case. I bought locally.

[Peter Kelly]

Peter,
There really dont seem to be many machines in 3-5hp for the $1500-2200 range it seems. You start out cheap at <1k for the 2hp up to the grizzly 1026 3hp machine, then the big jump to the 5hp machines at $2800+

Have you personally had any bad experiences with Laguna? My brother got their 21" bandsaw and it has a very nice fit and finish and performance to it.
Some years ago, I bought a Casadei edgbander from them which worked great until I needed one minor but critical part from them. When I called their service department, their response was something along the lines of "We're sorry, we no longer sell or support these machines. Best of luck!". I ended up having to call SM Meccanica direct to get the parts myself. I understand they've done the same with some of their other lines as well. Would not buy from Laguna ever again.

If you don't need it right away and don't feel comfortable with buying something long distance, just keep your eye on CL. Older decent 3hp Delta and Powermatic shapers often sell for less than $900.

[alex grams]

Why not a static? I honestly don't see running this for more than 30-40 mins at a time. Rotary would run me 500mon from what I've seen.

The 30amp was based on me looking at grizzlys 7.5hp 3 phase tablesaw for their amp requirements.

Freight is 450, and I agree on not liking to buy something without hearing or seeing it run.

Still very undecided.

[Michael W. Clark]

The 30amp was based on me looking at grizzlys 7.5hp 3 phase tablesaw for their amp requirements.

Are you sure that is 30A 220V single phase supply to the 7.5HP motor? That may be 30A 220V 3 phase. I'm using 30A 220V single phase for my Grizzly 3 phase 5HP TS (supply to converter), but the 3 phase amps are less on the load side of the converter.

Mike

[David Kumm]

Most T130s come with a 9 hp 22 amp three phase motor although the older ones could be smaller. You would want at least a 30 amp breaker for a 5 hp converter and 60 amp for a ten hp. The t130 doesn't have a very soft start so the converter needs to be sized accordingly. I agree that the 130 is a big first machine. Great if you have the infrastructure but I'd look a little smaller but spend the money on a RPC or used Phase perfect that has enough capacity to handle present and future needs. I would not put a static on a machine that is expensive to fix. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

Maybe this is all been beaten to death at this point, but that has never stopped me in the past.

First, I posted two exemplary machines above from MD. The point is that these machines come up everywhere ON OCCAISION. Not every day, or week or even month. If you start to look: craigslist, govliquidation, bidspotter, auctionzip, etc, they will come up. I bought my t110 10 miles from my house.

Also, another option is the second hand package. Occasionally, machines come up from used with cutters to make doors for not a lot of money.
http://annapolis.craigslist.org/tls/3224826058.html

Something like this would maybe be a no loose proposition because you could sell it for about what you pay, OR use it with nice results with smaller cutters. With a little experience, my opinion is that if you like to make furniture, you want a machine big enough to turn tenoning discs. Once you have done this, there is no going back.

[Ron Bontz]

Not to hijack. But I have and use a Delta 5HP. Hobby predominately. Couple of kitchens etc. I have a CMT head for the occassional custom grind. I just wish they held three cutters instead of two. Rather than slowing down the feed rate. M4 steel cuts very well. For rail/stiles and raised panels I use dedicated sets. Amana, Inifinity, etc. No complaints. Just say no to cheapy cutters. My knowlege on cutters is limited, however, so could some one throw up an example of a "Euro Block" for me. Thank you

[Peter Quinn]

I was looking at the Laguna shaper, 4 hp with 1 1/4" + 3/4" spindles. It's a PM 27 clone. Same spindle raising system. Decent set up for the small shop, probably a little more robust than the 3hp delta clones. The capacity under nut is listed at 3 1/2", which sounds off to me, should be a bit higher for the 1 1/4" spindle, could be a mis print, there stats are not always correct. Worth calling to find out. Not a bad price point for a mid entry level import shaper.

On the power issue, I don't look to grizzly for accurate advice on machinery from others, I suspect most of their motors are over rated, a 7.5 hp SCMI is a lot more motor to start. I had a long conversation with Gentec tech when I bought mine( American Rotary), he said 30A might start it but add in a feeder and it might starve a 7.5 HP Italian motor under full load, no up sell, just honest advice from them. I'm clearly not electrical expert, just recommending you talk to one pre purchase.

[Mel Fulks]

It's a pretty common misunderstanding to think more cutters cut faster,in fact the more cutters involved the slower the feed must be .That is why the spiral head "upgrades" to planers and jointers require a slower feed speed than what would be possible with 2 knives. One easy way to see this is comparing the speed possible with a one flute router bit compared with a two flute. Guys who have been in the business for years are startled by the difference. Sounds like you have a good shaper, if the head you are using is the common 4 inch corg. Your rpm setting should be at least 6000,and 8000 with a small knife projection.

[joe milana]

It's a pretty common misunderstanding to think more cutters cut faster,in fact the more cutters involved the slower the feed must be .That is why the spiral head "upgrades" to planers and jointers require a slower feed speed than what would be possible with 2 knives. One easy way to see this is comparing the speed possible with a one flute router bit compared with a two flute. Guys who have been in the business for years are startled by the difference. Sounds like you have a good shaper, if the head you are using is the common 4 inch corg. Your rpm setting should be at least 6000,and 8000 with a small knife projection.

:confused:

[alex grams]

Thanks for all of the info guys. The rotary vs static phase converter may just put this out of my range in regards to buying the listed T130. I need to try and keep the shaper budget under 3k delivered, as I still need to invest a lot more in tooling.

This thread has helped me a ton as usual. I somehow feel like I know a lot more than i did before all of you guys input, but am somehow still very undecided. a local craigslist has a few SCMI T110's for sale, and if he ever responds to my emails, if i can get him to part with one for a decent price (<$2K) I may be able to swing that and buy a phase converter/power feeder with the saved difference.

I think for now I may just need to sit tight and watch CL/woodweb for deals that I Can swing.

[Peter Kelly]

There's also the MiniMax T45 (http://minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=254&category_id=5&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35). Might actually be available in single phase. I know almost all the Rojek shapers (http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/shapers.php) are available as single phase as well.

[alex grams]

Does anyone have any experience with Champ Fond brand shapers?

[Jeff Duncan]

Just to clarify...that particular T-130 down south is a 5.5 hp, which happens to be low for a machine that size, but would certainly run fine on a 30 amp with a feeder, and possibly even a 20 amp. So no worries about monster size power consumption;)

I think if you can see the T-110's in person and get them for a reasonable cost that would be a good route. To be honest though, size-wise they're not all that much smaller. Once you get into the big boy machines.....your into big boy machines. And the T-110's are often 5.5 hp motors as well. So in other words....if you happened on a T-110 and a T-130 locally for decent prices, your not saving much of anything going with the T-110.

Lastly as far as smaller machines go I'd take a Powermatic 26/27 over the Delta HD every time. It's a slightly beefier machine, has a heavier quill assembly, and most importantly, (to me anyway), bearings are easily replaced. The Delta to my understanding has a much more complicated bearing that needs to be pre-loaded just right and sounds like a genuine PITA. I've owned both machines and they're fine starter machines....just not as much fun as the big boys:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

Does anyone have any experience with Champ Fond brand shapers?

You must have posted while I was typing.....if your looking at the shaper which has a pedestal base and tilting arbor...than yes I have one of those. It's an Asian made machine sold back in the 80's under several different names....mine is a LinMac. Let me know and I'll fill you in on them. If it's the cabinet style than I can't help you.

JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

, so could some one throw up an example of a "Euro Block" for me. Thank you

I'm not sure how to pull a pic of the net....but if you google "Amana Profile Pro" you'll see what all the fuss is about:)

JeffD

[joe milana]

Does anyone have any experience with Champ Fond brand shapers?

Hopefully Dave will chime in, but if you are referring to the one on woodweb, that's a cool looking machine. All cast iron, and a tilter too! Looks comparable to greenlee, or perhaps northfield. Maybe a knock off, but definitely industrial.

[Michael W. Clark]

How about Danackard, Northfield, or Wadkins? There are a few in the Indianapolis area on CL that are 5HP and 3ph. One has a Delta power feeder already with it and they are well in your price range. Shipping to Houston, may be $$.

I'm looking for a similar machine, but timing is not right for me.

[David Kumm]

Champ fond is Taiwanese and has been around for a while. I would not buy them as they may be great it will be tough to resell. Marlowe Mcgraw has a Northfield for 1900 and Barry Stup (sp)? has a bunch of machines for sale in PA. His stuff looks nice and he has a website set up. Some are listed on WW but there are others. Marlowe is a good guy and his stuff is nice. Dave

[joe milana]

That Northfield that Marlowe M has has a 3/4" spindle & single speed. I'd like it as a second machine, but do you think it is versatile enough to use as a primary machine?

[Mike Heidrick]

I'm not sure how to pull a pic of the net....but if you google "Amana Profile Pro" you'll see what all the fuss is about:)

JeffD

http://www.amanatool.com/shaperdetails/61068.jpg

http://www.amanatool.com/shaper/images/66F002.jpg

[Mike Heidrick]

CMT set from amazon

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51c8vdAYuwL.jpg

[Carpenter Mark]

Maggi/Steff feeders have been around for a long time, very durable, easy to use. Their tower castings are very good too, which is usually what takes the most abuse with feeders. Keep the tapers clean and dry, don't over tighten and you have a tool that lasts a lifetime

[David Kumm]

That Northfield that Marlowe M has has a 3/4" spindle & single speed. I'd like it as a second machine, but do you think it is versatile enough to use as a primary machine?

You would have to talk to Marlowe but spindles should be available and if a step pulley doesn't work a vfd would as that 7.5 hp motor has grunt even at lower rpm. I would prefer a newer Euro as primary though. Look at Jon Rael's Martin on WW. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

It's a pretty common misunderstanding to think more cutters cut faster,in fact the more cutters involved the slower the feed must be .That is why the spiral head "upgrades" to planers and jointers require a slower feed speed than what would be possible with 2 knives. One easy way to see this is comparing the speed possible with a one flute router bit compared with a two flute. Guys who have been in the business for years are startled by the difference. Sounds like you have a good shaper, if the head you are using is the common 4 inch corg. Your rpm setting should be at least 6000,and 8000 with a small knife projection.


I was hoping someone more eloquent (and more brief) than I would pick this up, but here goes my half wit understanding of this complex calculation. More cutters MAY cut faster, but they don't alone tell the whole story. The router bit one flute/two flute analogy is an over simplification, and the primary limiting factor there is spindle or shank rigidity, second might be power depending on the router. Sure, a single flute might offer a faster feed rate in some material due to less cutter in play at a given time, but the surface quality is diminished. You would have to double the RPM's to maintain the same surface quality. It is my understanding that most single flute bits are for sizing or rough work, not for show quality surfaces. The multi flute spiral heads for planers allow a faster feed rate at the same surface quality, assuming there is available power to do the work. In the case of the shelix heads I have found they actually allow a significantly faster feed rate because rather than taking three large cuts in a given revolution they are always taking a series of evenly spaced small cuts, there is less knife in the wood at any given moment, less stress on the motor. Machines where they don't work well are generally under powered and can't handle the increased number of flutes.

Think about TS blades, or even BS blades. There chip clearance becomes an issue. An 80Z blade would choke trying to rip 8/4 stock, but a 20Z industrial rip blade eats it like butter. Power is also a limiting factor there. You CAN rip thick hardwood with a plywood blade, but most people are not strong enough to push that hard, and its not safe to push that hard anyway. Plus you risk excessive heat build up at slower feed rates. The equation is more complicated than a simple "More teeth Less teeth" rule can explain.

For a person making moldings or other decorative wood objects the primary criteria is surface quality. Its all that really matters, so everything gets pegged to that with some accommodation for tooling life. You need around 17-20 cuts per inch to give a decent easily sanded surface. Some species will tolerate more CPI's, some less assuming sharp cutters. At a give spindle speed and feed rate (and given cutter diameter), adding 50% more knives (2Z to 3Z) will give more cuts per inch, so you can expect to be able to increase feed speed and get the identical cuts per inch quality of surface. The limiting factors remain spindle rigidity and power. Even large spindle shapers have their limits, and wood has its limits too. In theory you could double your feed rate by doubling the number of knives in the cutter head, in practice this may not be possible, but a faster feed rate should be possible all else remaining equal. A lot depends on the depth of cut and the hardness and machinability of the material in question too. So I'd argue that more cutters doesn't always mean a faster feed rate, but on a shaper, almost always does for a given surface quality. We should really be talking about "surface feet per minute" to discuss the cutters speed, but that combines diameter with RPM's and seems to make the eye's glaze over fast, so I'm not going to mention it here. Oops.

As an example, they use 4 knife heads on many through molders. I'm not a molder operator, but I've worked with a few good operator and asked lots of questions. For lots of cuts, they simply run two knives and leave the the other two slots empty, or chuck up balancing blanks to maintain gib tension to keep the heads cutting square. Thats probably more info than any casual shaper user will ever want or need. On some of the larger crowns and casings, they chuck up four knives, two make the full profile, two hog the deepest part of the cut. This allows a faster feed rate, or at least doesn't require a slower rate as would be necessary with only two knives. But even on a multi head molder with a 40MM spindle and 15HP motor per head, spindle rigidity and power are finite, so feed rate is not doubled. An example more people may be familiar with are the Freud quadra cut bits and cutters. I've found you can feed those a bit faster though double it isn't always possible. I swear its not the lawyers driving this issue, its the engineers!:) In any event, my lawyer has never even helped me set up a shaper.

There are some pretty good articles on the topic, some specifically about machining metal which is not an exact parallel but shares some similarities. There is a lengthy discussion of this in the Spindle Molder Hand book for those who want to know way more about this than I do or care to. And Rod Sheridan has some had some excellent posts explaining these ideas with more clarity and knowledge than I can seem to muster. My approach has always been more hands on and intuitive, I make adjustments based on what I'm looking at in the wood and the calculator never gets involved, rarely change spindle speeds over the diameter tooling I use either. But feed rate definitely gets adjusted quite regularly and is my primary means of controlling surface quality as other factors change. And all else being equal, I like more flutes more better. I can in fact feed my 4Z garniga rabbit head at nearly exactly double that of my 2Z 150MM garniga rabbit head. Its sad that I had to buy one of each just to prove this theory, but I can't seems to work the calculator on my smart phone.:rolleyes:

[Stephen Cherry]

One other factor is the chip thickness limit built into the cutter- I think that the euro cutters just do not project a lot of blade to the wood, so the thickness of the chip reaches a limit. And with just so many cuts per minute, you would be limited by the chip thicness limit times teh cuts per minute, as an absolute max feed rate. Maybe single cutter router bits, intended for fast cutting with good chip disposal, just allow a thicker chip as part of the cutter design.

[Mel Fulks]

My reply to Ron Bontz was correct. Please read his post again. A number of times I have been in shops that did not have any single flute router bits because proprietors thought they would cut slower. I was glad to help them. Yes,there is a difference in surface quality, but if another operation is going to make that moot ,then it is smart to do the current part of the project as fast as possible. It is for reasons of safety that the speed setting of a shaper should always be checked before pressing the start button. If the last guy was using a 2 and 3/4 inch carbide cutter with the appropriate 10,000 rpm setting I really don't want to use that speed for a set up with old style collars and knives hanging out as much as 4 inches.The withholding of information by manufacturers acting on the advice of their lawyers is a fact.Obviously discussion of that type of can not be on a public site.

[Mel Fulks]

Yes.Its cutting more at one time .I am not an engineer,for me frying eggs starts with opening the refrigerator....not making an iron skillet. Sometimes in these threads I think about a real savvy foreman from long ago. He told me ,"It's impossible for anyone I work with to have a better way than me for doing anything...because as soon as I see a better way I make it MY way".Show me a boss who cares about who thought of a good idea ,a week after the roll-out he can't remember who thought of it,but he wants everyone using it.

[Larry Edgerton]

There are also euroblock sets that have two knives and two dummy chip limiters. I have one, starts with a S, sounds German? Anyway it works well and would maybe be a better choice for a beginner for safety reasons.

Larry

[J. Greg Jones]

There are also euroblock sets that have two knives and two dummy chip limiters. I have one, starts with a S, sounds German? Anyway it works well and would maybe be a better choice for a beginner for safety reasons.

Larry
The Laguna set that the OP linked to in the first post of this thread has the chip limiters and are marked MAN-one reason that they cost more than the comparable CMT/Amana sets. I've never understood why CMT, Amana, etc. have not at least offered chip limiters as an option in the US market.

[Jeff Duncan]

The Laguna set that the OP linked to in the first post of this thread has the chip limiters and are marked MAN-one reason that they cost more than the comparable CMT/Amana sets. I've never understood why CMT, Amana, etc. have not at least offered chip limiters as an option in the US market.

I have not used those sets but could hazard a guess......they're more expensive;)

I can't tell for sure by the info posted, but it seems like your going to need matching chip limiters to each of the profiles your using? If that's so then they're going to be more costly as well as I would guess, more difficult/time consuming to set up than the traditional style Euro blocks. I'm not saying they don't have merit, but people in this country shop on price...good, bad, or indifferent....that's the truth.

JeffD

[Peter Kelly]

The Laguna set that the OP linked to in the first post of this thread has the chip limiters and are marked MAN-one reason that they cost more than the comparable CMT/Amana sets. I've never understood why CMT, Amana, etc. have not at least offered chip limiters as an option in the US market.
If you don't buy from Laguna, that one actually costs about the same as the Amana/CMT one. Woodtech tooling has it: http://woodtechtooling.com/Insert_Tooling/insert_tooling.html#GUHDO

[Jeff Duncan]

That Northfield that Marlowe M has has a 3/4" spindle & single speed. I'd like it as a second machine, but do you think it is versatile enough to use as a primary machine?

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.....the traditional American shapers are great machines for setting up to do large runs. They can mill stock all day long and are fairly simple and robust machines. The bigger Euro shapers are also pretty heavily built but have the advantage of being more flexible. Much better fences that are easily set up, and better spindle elevation controls to really fine tune your setup. The system for utilizing interchangeable spindles is much better on the Euro machines as well. They also usually have brakes and spindle locks which are really nice to haves. It's funny b/c I never thought twice about brakes until I bought a machine that had them. Now 2 of my shapers have them and it really bothers me using the shaper that doesn't! It's so nice to be able to stop that spindle quick if you need/want to! Oh I should note some of the older American style shapers have brakes too!

At the end of the day either style of machine will get the job done, I find for me personally the Euro style is a better fit:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

Champ fond is Taiwanese and has been around for a while. I would not buy them as they may be great it will be tough to resell. Dave

I don't often disagree with Dave....but this time I'm going to....just a bit:eek:

If it is the style of machine for sale on Woodweb now, they are actually great little machines. These are Asian made shapers but do not confuse them with Grizzly/Jet junk etc.. These were fabricated and marketed towards the small cabinet shop...not homeowners. They are very rough and crude in some respects, casting flaws in the tables, very rudimentary mechanicals, cheaply painted finish etc.. But for as simple and crude as they are, they are solid and smooth. If you threw a complete Delta HD in a furnace you may....just possibly...get enough steel to make the top of one of these! They have an interchangeable spindle assembly, so I have 3/4" and 1" spindles as well as a 1/2" collet for router bits. Coupled with the ability to tilt the spindle they offer a LOT of flexibility for a small shop. Even with my 2 bigger shapers I still use the LinMac fairly frequently for odd setups.

Now given the choice I would take one of these over the little Powermatics and Delta's any day of the week. They're just a much more solid and smooth running shaper even without the other benefits! However I'd still prefer a bigger Euro shaper for my heavy work where the precision, size, and mass are really beneficial. I will say the biggest downside I've come into using the machine is the fence. Very poorly designed and I'm not sure what they were thinking! It's much heavier and more precise than the smaller Delta/Powermatic shaper fences. However in order to move the faces in and out to the cutter, you have to adjust them via a knob connected to a threaded rod! This makes it painfully slow to adjust:(

Lastly as far as resale....that right there is something I have almost no concern about. I buy machines to build products and in turn make money. If the machine does that then it pays for itself and anything I get when I eventually resell it down the road is gravy:D I will say just in my personal opinion the one listed now is overpriced by about $1k. I bought mine several years ago for $2k and it came with a pretty good quantity of cutters, heads, and a Univer feeder! You can't sell a knockoff for what the real deals are selling for! If you can get a T-130 for $2500, or a T-110 for $2000+/- than that machine should be less money....again just my opinion;)

Oh...I do agree that the stuff in PA looks like it's very fairly priced and nice heavy machines....but if your going to have to ship....I'd go with the T-130:rolleyes:

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

Hey Jeff, I don't disagree at all. You gave a much better, more detailed explination. I generally don't worry about resale either. My feeling was that after experience with shaping the benefits of a euro machine or particularly one with a better fence, tilting, maybe sliding would make the OP upgrade. If that happens a PM or even a Northfield would be easier to unload, especially given the price going in. You said it much better than I. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

I never accept employment before before taking a real careful look at the machines and condition of tooling. I have refused some offers over modern shapers. When I see one of those things with its 1950s movie robot lights broken and hanging out, Its foot pedeled spindle pin system broken and in my way when I have to crawl into it.The warped fence with its broken ratchet handles ,foreign language labeled buttons....I head for the door.A word about changeable spindle systems. Came across US brand pretty good shaper where the spindle actually started coming out of the machine while a guy was running it in clockwise mode,he had it installed wrong .Someone else had the spindle in well enough but it would not come back out. When the machinist arrived to remove it he showed us the right way to use them and we had no more trouble. This machine was bought new by proprietor and we had the original book.No mention in it about proper procedure. Hmm...

[joe milana]

Good deal on a Ritter R-10 shaper on woodweb. It's in Texas Too!

[Peter Quinn]

Good deal on a Ritter R-10 shaper on woodweb. It's in Texas Too!












Having used an R-10, I'd say unless they are going to pay him $350 to take it and throw in some free cutters, it may not be a good deal. Not my favorite machine. It may look like a big Italian shaper, but it doesn't behave like one. Spindle raising, clunky, rigidity limited, fence marginal. Three strikes. There is a hysterical review out there somewhere on wood web of a Ritter where the poster states "Best thing I can say about them is most of the parts can be sourced at your local true value hardware when replacement becomes necessary". Unfortunately my experience supports the same conclusion.

[joe milana]

Having used an R-10, I'd say unless they are going to pay him $350 to take it and throw in some free cutters, it may not be a good deal. Not my favorite machine. It may look like a big Italian shaper, but it doesn't behave like one. Spindle raising, clunky, rigidity limited, fence marginal. Three strikes. There is a hysterical review out there somewhere on wood web of a Ritter where the poster states "Best thing I can say about them is most of the parts can be sourced at your local true value hardware when replacement becomes necessary". Unfortunately my experience supports the same conclusion.

Sad...it's an American product.

[Larry Edgerton]

So was the Vega. Car of the Year in 1972 when I bought one.......

Opps.

Larry

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter, I read that same thread, and the funny thing is remembered that same line as soon as I saw the Ritter suggestion pop up! A dealer tried to sell me a Ritter some years back, I decided he wanted too much for it and bought a Powermatic 27 brand new. I can't say I was all that happy with the Powermatic...but based on yours and others experience I probably would have been much less happy with the Ritter!

JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

To ALex I would TRY to get them to sell me the feeder WITHOUT wheels.Some dealer somewhere will do it. Then you can order the good yellow tires from Western Roller ,3 of those will hold wood better than 4 of the rubber ones.Keep in mind you would have to also buy WR wheels to fit your machine as there are several bolt spacings.

[Mel Fulks]

Bearings for corg heads. The trouble is since you can only move the knives one whole corg in or out you end up most times wrapping tape around them ,sanding some off finished cuts ,etc. I do a lot of circular work and got tired of all that.The head I use most is the common 4 inch diameter 20 degree, commonly used with a 4 and 1/2 inch bearing. I ordered a custom set of three bearings that divide up a single corg.The math was done for me by my son and takes into account the knife angle.By changing the bearing size and maybe moving the knife one corg I can never be farther off than a 64 th.At the time I had them made there were no sets ready made ,don't know about now. For anyone interested the diameters are : 4.5 , 4.5391, and 4.5783

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I read that same thread, and the funny thing is remembered that same line as soon as I saw the Ritter suggestion pop up! A dealer tried to sell me a Ritter some years back, I decided he wanted too much for it and bought a Powermatic 27 brand new. I can't say I was all that happy with the Powermatic...but based on yours and others experience I probably would have been much less happy with the Ritter!

JeffD

They do sell themselves as the value leader, best cost to performance ratio in the industry or something like that. I just wasn't thrilled with the R-10, i know they make other larger machines, lots of specialized line borers and such, I have no experience with any of those. I don't mean to pan the company. But if somebody said " I'll sell you this T-130 for $2500, or I'll give you this Ritter R-10 and bring it to your shop and set it up for you", I'd still have to think about it. One of the first things I did at my present job some years back was run 30-40LF of 4 1/2" crown on that Ritter for a contractor that forgot to add in a mud room or something on a large whole whose order, they didn't want to set up a molder to run just a few pieces. Not a great experience. I figured out quick why they left that one as the "float" for odd jobs, and why they gave it to the FNG to use. UGGH.


To add to the bearings for corrugated heads thing, you may be able to use the Amana set up with the single steel rub collar and the aluminum sleeves to get that done. (http://www.amanatool.com/shaper/61600.html) They go up in 5MM increments, 115MM is about 4.527". I guess you would have to look at the projection of the actual cutters in question to see if something was a match. I mention it because they work well and are significantly cheaper IME than really large rub collars or custom turned things. It might be possible to get one of the amana aluminum sleeves turned a bit cheaper than having a custom bearing made, not sure? At work we have used duck tape to pad up a bearing, can't say it does't work, and who does't like duck tape. Course removing duck tape that has become fused to a bearing can be a challenge.

[Mel Fulks]

I paid 150 for the set of 3 bearing. Since mine are based on the common 4 1/2 inch size many shops would only need to buy 2. I was surprised there was nothing available ready to go for a situation so frequently encountered. Turning some wood or plastic rings for the actual bearings would be an option too. Anyway ,the math has proven good. I considered buying 4 bearings....but decided just to take more medicine..

[Peter Quinn]

I paid 150 for the set of 3 bearing. Since mine are based on the common 4 1/2 inch size many shops would only need to buy 2. I was surprised there was nothing available ready to go for a situation so frequently encountered. Turning some wood or plastic rings for the actual bearings would be an option too. Anyway ,the math has proven good. I considered buying 4 bearings....but decided just to take more medicine..

Where are you buying your bearings Mel? Sounds like a very good price. Was that the cost delivered, or did you have to pay beyond that to have them turned to a specific size? We have had some turned to match a custom three wing as it was sharpened, but I guess there are limits to how far that can go.

[Mel Fulks]

Bought mine from Byrd Tool as a custom order based on my son's specs.

[Peter Quinn]

Bought mine from Byrd Tool as a custom order based on my son's specs.

Very good price, Schmidt has custom bearing sizes listed at $147 ea. Didn't know Byrd sold bearings except for the shelix heads. Not listed on their site, good to know they are an option. Thanks Mel.

[Jeff Duncan]

Why let a good thread die??:D

I just wanted to add that a Ritter R-10 just showed up on one of the auction sites. I can tell just from looking at the pictures that it is not anywhere near the same level of quality of even the cheaper Asian industrial machines!!! To be quite honest it looks like something somebody cobbled together from spare parts lying around....pretty sad actually:(

Hey at least we still have Northfield as a good solid American machine company:D

JeffD

[Michael W. Clark]

Why let a good thread die??:D

Me too. I enjoyed reading it. I didn't post on it much as I'm in the same position as the OP. I just passed on a Grizzly 1026 that was $450 on CL. Mainly because of timing. I told my wife (and myself) that I would finish the current project first before any new tool purchases or starting another project. The Grizzly had a 1" spindle and I noticed that most of cutters mentioned here came in 1" bore. I think I would still prefer a 5HP machine especially with more than two speeds. There is a Northfield near here for sale (5hp), but it looks very old. It may be single speed. The spindle height adjustment is a crank on the front with the handwheel facing the floor.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Many of the old heavy duty shapers just have one speed since the cutters were commonly made up in house in an appropriate diameter .Except for dedicated use I consider them obsolete. Have seen a couple that had a lot belt adjustment and an easily accessed small pulley , made me wonder if speeds were changed by actually removing and changing to a different pulley .Anybody know?

[alex grams]

As as update, I did find a used (though very lightly) Powermatic 2700 with power feeder for a little under 2k delivered. I got an infinity coping sled also. I think it will more than capably handle anything I can throw at it. I did break down and order some cutters, and I sold the power feeder that came with it (1/4hp powermatic) to my brother and have ordered the 1hp 3 wheel from Powermatic. The only item on it that needs any works is the mobile base, The slotted bar that keys into the drive for raising/lowering the wheels was deformed, so that was a 20$ replacement, but no big deal.

When I get things cleaned up I will post some pictures, I have a few foot chests/blanket chests and cabinets I am anxious to start once I get the cutters and feeder in.

[Michael W. Clark]

Many of the old heavy duty shapers just have one speed since the cutters were commonly made up in house in an appropriate diameter .Except for dedicated use I consider them obsolete. Have seen a couple that had a lot belt adjustment and an easily accessed small pulley , made me wonder if speeds were changed by actually removing and changing to a different pulley .Anybody know?

As long as the belt tension was "easily" adjusted, and motor and spindle stub shafts are long enough, seems like you could put a pair of step pulleys on. However, I would prefer not to get into that unless for extraordinary circumstances.
Mike

[Mel Fulks]

These were flat belt machines and there definitely was not enough room for step pulleys. There was a nut under the spindle pulley ,and I wondered if that meant it tightened the pulley against a flange. Lock the spindle with the loose pin,loosen one nut and remove the pulley, replace it with another one...? The stuff was so old no one there could answer my question.

[Jeff Duncan]

Mel, I can't answer your question, however.....most of those old industrial shapers are 3 phase machines. Therefore there is the potential to rig up a VFD to drop speed. I've been debating doing this with one of my shapers. For reasons unknown the previous owner replaced the original 2 speed motor and step pulley with a single speed motor and single groove sheave:confused: So it's now a question of what's better/more cost effective long term. Buying an original motor and pulley or a VFD? Either way will be quite expensive for a 7-1/2 hp motor:(

Luckily I have another shaper when I do need slower speeds for the time being:D

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1EZulumivM&feature=plcp

Ran into this video looking for something else recently, interesting clip really. But I'm posting it here as an example of why a shaper kicks butt. Its a few minutes into it, pattern cutter, bearings top and bottom, big table, nice set up! Worth a look.

Oh, Alex, Congrats on that shaper find. Nice Score! I looked real close at the PM 2700 and was set to buy one myself when a minimax found me cheap. Thats one of the best packages going IMO for the small shop. Its got lots of power, a very robust build, lots of features from their full industrial models, great fence, digital heigh gauge is a nice touch you will learn to love. That one will do every thing you need for sure. Enjoy it and work safe.

Peter

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for posting that Peter. Actually I wish you had not... That is my Kolle slot mortiser in the video. I sold that to Jason a couple years ago and still have sellers remorse. Never sell a good German tool.....

Looks like it has a good home though.

Joe

[Stephen Cherry]

Its a few minutes into it, pattern cutter, bearings top and bottom, big table, nice set up! Worth a look.

Peter

I've got one of those byrd insert pattern cutters from oella. Cuts great, without all the commotion of a router bit. And a big plus is that it could be thought of as a lifetime tool for occasional use, so in the long run it will be cheaper than router bits.

Believe it or not, the little bit is louder.

240730

[David Kumm]

Thanks for the video. I needed a nap after watching it. Joe, I'll take your cast offs anytime. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

I have the Amana version of Byrd's pattern head and it works pretty good. I do wonder if the larger diameter of the Byrd head improves the quality of cut....especially when your really hogging material?

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

One issue with the pattern heads is radius. Bigger is probably better until you hit an inside radius tighter than 4", then smaller is better. Garniga and amana boh sell 50MM rabbit heads with shear angle that would function pretty well for pattern work but also give you the spurs for clean rabbit work. I use my 5" 4Z garniga head for pattern work and it leaves a real smooth finish.

I dream that one day I will wake up and find some good German machines in my shop. Or at least Italian machines with a convincing German accent.:rolleyes:

[Joe Calhoon]

Smaller diameter is a must for a lot of radius work. A couple years ago we built some Green & Green style doors. All our insert rebate heads were too large for the radiuses. We bought this Orteli 80mm diameter spiral head to do the job. Too small for the dead collar but the bearing that came with it works pretty well.


All my insert heads cut pretty well for curve work regardless of size. The spiral is quieter. 4 Z is better on the straight insert cutters for curves. For pattern stile & rail cuts I cannot tell much difference between the 2Z or 3Z.


We are building a Victorian style bar with a lot of curves. All my pattern cutters for this type work are the old braised 3 wing carbide and corrugated heads. No comparison to insert heads but I won’t be replacing them for one-off work!


Some of those Italian machines speak German pretty well. And they usually have a nicer paint job.:)






Joe
240929

[Michael W. Clark]

Keeping it alive!
Ive heard you guys mention T110s and T130s, but there is a T120 near here in a similar price range. It looks a little older from the appearance but looks in good shape. What is the difference between this one and the other two?
Mike

[David Kumm]

Keeping it alive!
Ive heard you guys mention T110s and T130s, but there is a T120 near here in a similar price range. It looks a little older from the appearance but looks in good shape. What is the difference between this one and the other two?
Mike

Good question and I don't know the answer. The old L'invincible stuff was good though. There is also a SAC T120 on ebay that is a great shaper for the money. Dave

[Michael W. Clark]

Yes, it has L'invincible on the front in cursive writing. Looks almost cast from the picture.

[David Kumm]

Yes, it has L'invincible on the front in cursive writing. Looks almost cast from the picture.

Yes, the base was cast iron on those. Don't know about the spindle size though. Looks small in the picture but might be deceiving. The fence is usually the drawback in the older shapers. Dave

[Michael W. Clark]

Good question and I don't know the answer. The old L'invincible stuff was good though. There is also a SAC T120 on ebay that is a great shaper for the money. Dave

I think it is 9hp 3ph. What size RPC would be required? 10hp with 50A 220v 1ph supply?

[David Kumm]

I think it is 9hp 3ph. What size RPC would be required? 10hp with 50A 220v 1ph supply?

They are typically not soft start so I would think 10 hard start with a 60 amp input. The 10 hp Phase perfect will start them. My experience with the PP and Kay is the PP will start machines more quickly as they allow higher start up amps for their size. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

I haven't seen any of the T-120's in person, but I don't think you can go wrong with any of the L'invincible series machines.

As far as the spindle size goes, it's very likely interchangeable so you can replace it with whatever size is to your liking. The seller should be able to confirm whether or not it really is interchangeable though.

good luck,
JeffD