Need help picking a laser`

[Walt Langhans]

Hey Everyone,

I'm looking to get into the wargaming terrain making business, and I want to get a laser cutter / engraver, but there is a problem. Although I can make good terrain, I know nothing about lasers, so I could your help. Here are the specifics:

Major considerations:

I need a laser that can both cut and engrave. I will be working with 1/8 inch MDF, that will need to be cut as well as engraved. I don't expect to run the machine more than 10 - 15 hours per week, but I could see running it 10 - 14 hours in a given day to build up stock before a convention or what not.

Depending on cost, I would like to up the thickness to 1/4 inch MDF that the laser would be able to cut.

I would prefer to support a product that was made in America, but would consider other products if the quality was still good.

This unit would be housed in my garage.

Secondary considerations:

It would be nice if I had a machine that could do other stuff as well, like be an over flow machine for another local laser cutting business or what every some one else might want.

I looked around on the site a bit and didn't quite see anything that addressed these questions but it I missed something please just post a link :)

Thanks
Walt

[Rich Harman]

How large of a work area do you need? Epilog has four used machines ranging from about $8 to $24k. If you need 24" x 48" the Epilog Legend EXT would work, for $24k pre-owned.

If you are going to work with smaller pieces then a smaller Epilog or Trotec might be right for you.

I cut quite a bit of 1/4" MDF with 80 watts, I wish I had more.

If you need to work with pieces that are 24 x 48 or larger then you can spend a whole lot of money on a mainstream machine or go with a Chinese machine for 1/10 the cost. If you have the money, go with a Trotec (my opinion) but if you don't have the work to feed an expensive machine then it doesn't make sense to spend so much.

I am quite pleased with my Shenhui, but only after I put about 10 to 20 hours of my time into tweaking and upgrading it. It baffles me why they can't do that extra bit in China. Westerners would gladly pay extra for the higher quality. I have a background in engineering and mechanics so it was partially entertainment for me trying to get the last bit of performance out of the machine. At a minimum you would need to spend a couple to a few hours checking the machine over and verifying alignment and squareness.

There is a wealth of information about this very topic, if you really want to get educated go back at least several months and start reading all the threads.

[Scott Shepherd]

You might spend $100 with a local laser owner and see if what you want to do will work. In my limited experience, when you remove a lot of material from one side of MDF, it bows like a banana. I would imagine if you wanted to make something that had heavy engraving all over it, giving it some terrain, then it would bow and you'd have a mess while it was engraving. But, you might be just talking about lightly engraving into the surface. I don't know anything about the business you're talking about, so I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to do.

However, that might be the best $100 you spend (probably less) to make sure what you want to do will work. Either that or get the MDF and create a file or two and get the laser manufacturers to run it while you do the demo with them.

Do you have a budget in mind for this laser?

[Walt Langhans]

How large of a work area do you need?

That is a good question and I'm not 100% sure. For what I'm planning on doing I don't see needing to work with stuff that is over 12 inches, but I would hate to get one that small then one day need 14 inches, lol. What I seem to be noticing as the major price factor does seem to be the size of the work area, but then there is this feature list and I don't know if I've ever need half the stuff or if it really matters given how simple my projects will be.


I cut quite a bit of 1/4" MDF with 80 watts, I wish I had more.
More Watts or area?


I am quite pleased with my Shenhui, but only after I put about 10 to 20 hours of my time into tweaking and upgrading it.

I wouldn't mind doing that. Where you able to get the parts that you needed here, or did you have to order them from China, and about how much did you pay for your machine and the upgrades? Also how long did it take to get here and where there any shipping issues? I thought lasers where somewhat delicate, and I've seen FedX make a mess of things more than once.


You might spend $100 with a local laser owner and see if what you want to do will work.
Excellent idea


I don't know anything about the business you're talking about, so I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to do.
Think of it as making 1/10 scale doll houses.


Do you have a budget in mind for this laser?
That's the other issue. I'm kind of looking at this like buy a car. Yeah I can get a cheep used one for a few grand, but I also wouldn't mind have a good one and spending 25K. With out know much about them I think my main concern is it's ability to handle the MDF. I'm looking at like having the right tool for the job, kind of like if you where building a house, sure you can cut a bunch of 2 * 4 with a skill saw, but it's a heck of a lot easier to have a chop saw that has higher amperage motor, a work area to sit the 2 * 4 on, and the saw mounted in such a way that all you have to do is pull down it. If that made sense.

Thanks guys!

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks Walt. I was thinking you would be engraving like a topography type thing across the board. You're talking about cutting out things, vector cutting so to speak, so the warping isn't an issue at all for that.

With your budget, you can get just about anything you want. $25,000 will get you the top of the line, very fast machine, or anything else.

There are a couple of things to know about lasers. Speed and power are relative. If you buy a very fast machine-motion wise, but get a low power laser, then you'll end up engraving things at 50% speed because you can't get the depth you need at 100% speed. On a slower machine, with the same wattage, you might run at 100% speed and do just fine. Each material takes a different amount of speed and power to get the desired effect.

My personal recommendation is to get the most power you can afford. I would start in the 60 Watt area and work up if you can. We have a 45W and a 75W laser. The 45W is like watching paint dry on many things, when you vector cut. The 75W flies through it all pretty good.

Epilog, Universal, Trotec are all mainstream machines with good reputations. Chinese machines are out there and are a fraction of the prices. It's Trade Show time for most of these companies so there's a lot of trade show pricing going on right now, so you might be surprised just how good of a price you can get. Just ask any of them if they have any trade show pricing going on.

[Walt Langhans]

My personal recommendation is to get the most power you can afford. I would start in the 60 Watt area and work up if you can. We have a 45W and a 75W laser. The 45W is like watching paint dry on many things, when you vector cut. The 75W flies through it all pretty good.

Ok this is helping to narrow it down a bit, thanks :) Speed isn't that much of an issue for me since I'll be working at home. I assume if a job is going to take an hour to do, I don't need to sit there and watch it do I?

Another concern is burning the wood. Once completed and assembled a house (or what ever) would then need to be painted. I know my customers would not want something that they have to put 3 - 4 coats of paint on to cover up deep burn marks. I do realize of course that there will be some burn marks and that's ok, just nothing excessive.

Given that I'm working with 1/4 MDF (I won't need anything thicker than that) would it make more sense to stick with the 75W or getting something more powerful if I can afford it, and is there a point where I have too much power, ie I assume a 500W would be over kill for my needs.

[Scott Shepherd]

Speed isn't that much of an issue for me since I'll be working at home. I assume if a job is going to take an hour to do, I don't need to sit there and watch it do I?

I don't know, do you like your house? If so, I would never leave it unattended. There are threads on this forum where fires have started and burned the machines up. I would never ever leave a laser unattended.

Speed is an important factor when talking about engraving. In that case, there is a big difference between machines and brands. However, if you are vector cutting, you can't go but so fast with the power you have. So the speed of a lower end machine and a higher end machine is not going to be radically different on the vector cutting side of things. However, with engraving, it's very different.

75W is probably a good place to start with 1/4" MDF. It's not going to be super fast, but it should do it.

I'd think anywhere between 60 and 100W is going to serve you well.

[Walt Langhans]

I don't know, do you like your house? If so, I would never leave it unattended. There are threads on this forum where fires have started and burned the machines up. I would never ever leave a laser unattended.
Meh... It's ok but I think the wife would be upset with me, lol! So yeah that's a good safety tip, thanks!

I took a look at the brands that you suggested and if I went with trotec I think the speedy 300 would do the trick, and I happened to notice that's the one you have as well, any advice on all the options they have, and what kind of money am I looking at if I go with that one?

[Rich Harman]

Since you have the budget I would not get a Chinese machine unless you needed a larger work area. The smallest Chinese machine I would consider is a 600 x 900 (24" x 36").

Every so often Epilog sells pre-owned lasers with factory warranties. Right now they have a 40 watt Helix, a 60 watt zing 24 and a 60 watt EXT. For a US made mainstream machine that is the way I would go. However I would strongly consider the Trotecs as all indications are that they are the very top of the line.

40 watts would be fine if you are only cutting 3mm MDF but if you want to cut thicker, the more power the better. And if you go with Trotec you will want even more power to be able to take advantage of their higher speed capabilities. That really only applies to raster engraving. Vector cutting speed is dependent upon power, even a Chinese machine will cut just as fast as a Trotec - given that they are using the same power level.

[Walt Langhans]

Every so often Epilog sells pre-owned lasers with factory warranties.
I just checked those out, and they seem like a pretty good deal. However this does bring up another question, I've seen a lot of used lasers for sale, should I even consider buy used, or is that just a bunch of trouble waiting to happen?

[Rich Harman]

I think it is different buying a used laser directly from the manufacturer with a warranty vs a used laser from an individual. I would certainly inquire as to the history of the machine in either case. People have said that Epilog will tell you the repair history on a used machine if you can provide the serial number. They also have a reputation for providing good support after the warranty runs out. However, replacement parts can be quite expensive.

[Mike Null]

Vector cutting speed is indeed dependent on power but it is also dependent on the firmware to regulate the speed when cutting curves. Some not only cut curves faster but they produce a better quality cut.

[Walt Langhans]

Thanks for all the advice guys! If anyone else has more to add please do. I'm sure I'll have some more questions as I narrow it down a bit. But at this point I'm pretty sure I going to go with Scott's advice and get one of the 3 main stream brands.

[Rich Harman]

Vector cutting speed is indeed dependent on power but it is also dependent on the firmware to regulate the speed when cutting curves. Some not only cut curves faster but they produce a better quality cut.

I noticed this when cutting out gears on a Universal machine. All lines were set to cut at the same speed but when it cut the teeth, which were composed of many small line segments, it would run painfully slow. Like 1/4 as fast or even slower.

My Shenhui does not have this problem. It cuts straight lines or curves made up of zillions of segments smoothly and without changing the cutting speed.

[Rich Harman]

But at this point I'm pretty sure I going to go with Scott's advice and get one of the 3 main stream brands.

Both people that have given advice are recommending that you get a mainstream machine.

[Scott Shepherd]

Both people that have given advice are recommending that you get a mainstream machine.

Just for the record, I didn't recommend one machine over any other machine. I said that you have to determine which one is right for you. That might be a Chinese machine, that might be a machine assembled in the USA, or it might be one from Taiwan or Austria. I don't sell machines for a living, so it makes no difference to me what people buy.

[Rich Harman]

Just for the record, I didn't recommend one machine over any other machine.

I guess that it true. I suggested Epilog because he wanted a US machine and they have a couple at reduced prices with warranties. I suggested Trotec because I believe they are top of the line and I suggested a Chinese machine if he needs a large work area without spending a fortune.

[Scott Shepherd]

I guess that it true. I suggested Epilog because he wanted a US machine and they have a couple at reduced prices with warranties. I suggested Trotec because I believe they are top of the line and I suggested a Chinese machine if he needs a large work area without spending a fortune.

I think that's good advice. I wouldn't leave out Universal. Out of the 3 brands of lasers we have had, the Universal, by far, has a lot more control over precision tuning issues. I have a job that requires making 1000's of holes, all slip fits for a part and so far, the Universal is the only one I can get to make them. What you get with the others is one tight, one loose, one just right, all mixed in with no rhyme or reason.

If we didn't have the Universal, we wouldn't be able to do the job and it's a repeat job we've been doing for 4 years now. I tried to move it to the Trotec last week and couldn't make it happen.

If it were up to me, I'd take the Trotec laser with the Universal Controls and I'd be a happy man.

[Rich Harman]

I think that's good advice. I wouldn't leave out Universal. Out of the 3 brands of lasers we have had, the Universal, by far, has a lot more control over precision tuning issues. I have a job that requires making 1000's of holes, all slip fits for a part and so far, the Universal is the only one I can get to make them. What you get with the others is one tight, one loose, one just right, all mixed in with no rhyme or reason.

That's interesting. What was the difference in dimensions? What kind of encoders do the Universals and Trotecs use? I have the same issue with mine but I believe it to be the belt. However on mine the difference in size is dependent upon the X axis position - not random.

[Scott Shepherd]

That's interesting. What was the difference in dimensions? What kind of encoders do the Universals and Trotecs use? I have the same issue with mine but I believe it to be the belt. However on mine the difference in size is dependent upon the X axis position - not random.

The Universal uses stepper motors and the Trotec is using servos. The difference is less than .001", but it varies about .001", where the Universal doesn't. I'm always stunned at how accurate the Universal is. It'll also dot the i on a 4 pt font at higher speeds. The Trotec will skip the dot on the i that small. You can tune it, but it involves calling tech support, I think, to get the password to get into an area to change it. On the Universal, I can just go right into job control and adjust it and it's done. Plus, metallics and non metallics react different, so dotting the i has a different setting for each material type. If I have a tough job, I almost always go to the Universal. If I have a job that has a lot of engraving or vector cutting, then I always go to the Trotec.

[Walt Langhans]

After checking out the idea of going with a US machine vs the Chinese machine I came across a lot of how the Chinese machines had to be fixed, tweaked, and repaired after their long journey. I'm of the mind set when I buy a tool, I expect it to work out of the box. I think I'd go slightly nut's if I bought a $10 drill, then had to buy $10 more worth of parts, and then spend 2 hours putting it all together before I could us the it. Plus there seems to be an issue of how well the software relates. I'm an IT guy but I HATE the damn drawing / cad programs, you almost have to be an engineer or graphic artist to use them. I just want to be able to to simple things easily, and I'm ok paying for that.

What most people seem to forget is this: there are three components to ANY product, price, quality, and service. If you want good quality and service you have to pay for it, if you want a low price you have to be willing to sacrifice quality and / or service.

[Rich Harman]

Nah, it's more like buying a $10 drill and having to spend a couple minutes tightening the chuck and turning the brushes around the right way - then having the functional equivalent of a $100 drill. But thanks to this forum you wouldn't go nuts because you know beforehand what to expect.

Incidentally, do mainstream machines work "out of the box"? Do they need to have their alignment checked?

The damn drawing / cad programs are part of using a laser. I have high school kids using it with a few minutes of instruction. Yes, you have to learn it. I don't think that there is any laser that you can buy where you don't have to learn how to use it.

But let me say again, for your needs, get a mainstream machine. If you needed a larger machine then consider a Chinese one. Mine is more than double the size of Epilog's largest, 50% larger than Universal's largest and a bit smaller than Trotec's largest. I shudder to think how much they want for that machine - though I would certainly have fun with it.

I don't think that anyone is forgetting that there is a tradeoff in quality for price. In fact, we are drawing attention to it and sharing how we handle it.

[Rodne Gold]

Most lasers need adjustment out the box , any time any laser is transported you really have to do a beam realignment. Even if we roll them to different places in our workshop we do an alignment after.

[Walt Langhans]

All good points guys and thank you. I did look over the help section on the Chinese Machines and it seems like just about anything that could go wrong or needed tweaking has been covered. And oddly enough I got an private email form a Chinese Machine rep, pointing me to his web site and offering to answer any question, which I thought was being very proactive and respected seeing.
Thanks again!
Walt

[Roger Leiva]

Walt L., greetings. In my humble opinion, and having experience Epilog Mini 18, Zing and all Epilog Helix 24, and watching many videos online about co2 laser machines, I consider it appropriate to take into account the views of other Members. Everyone who has a laser machine, speak well of it and feel very satisfied, including the Chinese. The truth is that it all depends on the budget available, a little knowledge in design programs such as Corel Draw and jobs to perform cutting and engraving. For me, the Helix 24 is great, I cut plywood, acrylic sheets and record sheets of wood and metal. Also will the similar excellent L. Universal Laser Pro Trotec and cooling system of these machines by air is an advantage with respect to glass tubes must be cooled with water. I have known, who also have these Chinese machines cooled with water and are very satisfied. If you decide to buy a machine, make a good investment from the beginning, not regret, because every time, like to have a wider and laser power.
Roger Leiva (Costa Rica) Helix 24 60 Watt

[Bruce Dorworth]

I would talk to Lucy at Gweike. It is a good machine and the Tech support has been great.

Just my 2cents

Bruce

[David Rust]

Every so often Epilog sells pre-owned lasers with factory warranties. Right now they have a 40 watt Helix, a 60 watt zing 24 and a 60 watt EXT. For a US made mainstream machine that is the way I would go. However I would strongly consider the Trotecs as all indications are that they are the very top of the line.

Rich,
Where can I look up what Epilog has for preowned units for sale? I talked to my local sales person and he mentioned that they do not come up often. I searched the Epilog website and couldn't locate a link to preowned units. I really don't want to call the sales guy once a week to get an update... Also my sales person did not mention that new units go on sale... Do I have to go to a trade show to get one on sale or does Epilog periodically have sales on new units?

Thanks,
Dave

[Rich Harman]

On their home page, click on the "PRODUCTS" tab then click on "PREOWNED" which is on the far right.

A little ways down the page will be a big button for subscribing to the preowned laser system notification list.

[David Rust]

On their home page, click on the "PRODUCTS" tab then click on "PREOWNED" which is on the far right.A little ways down the page will be a big button for subscribing to the preowned laser system notification list.Thanks Rich!! I didn't look close enoughDave

[David Fairfield]

I guess wargame terrain cutting means vector cutting topographic layers and stacking them on to hexagon shapes? It would be a lot of cutting, but not extremely precise cutting and not a lot of engraving. For this kind of application I would check out a Chinese machine. I rarely recommend them, but in this case, I think it might make good sense. But if you want an American machine then I think a used factory reconditioned Epilog would be a great option. My Epilog has seen years of constant use, it works good as new. So a pre owned machine can be every bit as good as a new one.

-Dave

[Kevin Groenke]

We have 1) 60W ULS, 2)120W ULS and 1)150W ULS (all 18x32). They're used primarily for vector cutting and engraving more architectural modeling than anything else. While all of the machines will cut 1/8" mdf pretty effectively, we allow only the 150W to be used to cut 1/4" MDF. Even the 120w machines are too slow and leave too charred an edge with such thick material. If you absolutely intend to cut 1/4" MDF with any frequency, get the most power you can afford for the best edge quality and fastest throughput.

As everybody has mentioned, the "big three" all make great machines. We've stuck with ULS primarily for consistency. If the first laser we bought and been an Epilogue we would probably have four of them now. If you expect a particular type of job to be the primary work, it might be worth finding out how long such a job takes on each machine you're considering so that you can compare the true cost of operation.

If you're considering the purchase of a used machine, you could also look at http://www.usedlasers.com/, we purchased a machine from them last year and they have treated us well.


good luck,
-kevin

[Mike Null]

I've known Rob Bosworth (forums and telephone conversations) for years. He is dependable and honest. The link to used lasers is his business.