2nd hand cut dovetail

[Paul Sikorski]

So I originally posted on the general forum and got great advice. One of them being post here as you guys are the experts. So this is my second attempt at cutting dovetails by hand. My first attempt was pretty lame my second while improved not exactly pretty but I think it might actually be functional. So a couple things I have learned. Sharp chisels are a must ( I sharpened them before my second attempt what a difference). Going off advice offered earlier mark with a knife then a pencil ( the order there is important), Mark all four sides of each piece and mark the waste. Hang a big sign that says cut to the waste side of the line!! I bought a Japanese saw to use and so far so good I do like it. But I am just learning and willing to try and master this technique.
A couple things I still need though. Better lighting and a bench. One guy suggested getting the piece closer to eye level, I think he maybe on to something there what do you think of making a table top bench to accomplish this? I never really heard of one but Im open to any advice you guys can lend. Ill post a couple pictures so you can see what your working with I pretty much mark and cut the tails then use a coping saw to remove some waste, then pair back using a chisel to square things up.
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[george wilson]

I advise you to get some better wood to practice on. That real soft pine is not as easy to accurately saw than a harder wood. At LEAST use poplar if you want a cheap wood to practice on.

[Paul Sikorski]

I advise you to get some better wood to practice on. That real soft pine is not as easy to accurately saw than a harder wood. At LEAST use poplar if you want a cheap wood to practice on.
Will do. It was just what had handy when I decided to give it a shot. I'm sure I got some oak floating around. Maybe this is a dumb comment but I was really surprised how hard it was to chisel against the grain with pine or maybe I need to get my chisels sharper.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

From what I can see, your baseline fit is pretty good; so your chiseling work is probably pretty on. From what I can see, your minor gaps are are from your sawcuts defining the pins/tails. Are you doing tails first, or pins first? Might be worth trying the other way around. Despite all the ink and friendly debate that's been spilled over that arguement, the correct answer is really "whatever you can do better and more comfortably." I like to do tails first, simply because it seems, (or at least it seemed when I started) that I can saw my pins to the line much more accurately. Since you mark the second part of the joint from the first, and it's got to mate, you only get one shot to get that one right. So if you feel better at one than the other, than that's a good candidate for your second set of cuts.


For me, 99% of these kind of joints is marking accurately - after that, it's just a matter to saw to those lines. From what I can see, you've got the basics down, focus on getting the sawing down - that's all dovetails are, being able to saw. I think at this point, practice is going to make perfect. It might be worth it to just mark a bunch of lines, and saw to those lines. Don't worry about chopping out waste, just practice the sawing, and and get a feel for how your saw behaves, and notice what happens. Do you constantly veer left? Is it the saw, or you? Adjust your stance or how you look at the work.

I agree with George, by the way - pine can be deceptive, and harder to do these joints in than a harder wood. The hard-soft-hard-soft of the grain lines kind of wants to steer your tools for you at times.

The only other thing that jumps out is that I'd be tempted to make the pins at the edge a little thicker, but that might just be me.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The quarter-sawn pine you've got is probably actually easier to chop than flatsawn though - you're going through more consistent material that way. Going through the growth rings on flat-sawn stuff, your chisel flies through the softer wood and then hits the harder stuff like a brick.

[Michael Fross]

Hello.

A bit hard to see in the picture, but when you cut with the saw, cut to the line. Cutting a bit away and then trying to clean up is *much* harder IMHO than just going directly from the cut.

Remember if you do tails first, the only really important part is to cut perpendicular. It's a template so if you are a bit off it's fine as long as the cuts are perpendicular. Not true when you do the pins.

Another suggestion is to check out Rob Cosman's Dovetail 2.0 video. Some people love Rob, and some people do not. But he is very good at teaching people to cut dovetails by hand.

[Paul Sikorski]

Joshua I do the tails first but I will def. try the pins tomorrow and see what results I get. I will try marking a dozen lines and try cutting to them then try custting the dovetails. Yeah cutting that close to the edge kinda sucked Ill mark better in the future. Mike I checked him out on youtube that 3:40 minute dovetail was amazing. I will def. take a look at him. One thing and I dont know it makes a difference but I was just use an bevel and set it to what looks good. Is that OK or should I think about a saddle to make things more consistent Thanks guys for the help greatly appreciated.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Mike I checked him out on youtube that 3:40 minute dovetail was amazing. I will def. take a look at him.

I really like his videos....


One thing and I dont know it makes a difference but I was just use an bevel and set it to what looks good. Is that OK or should I think about a saddle to make things more consistent

The usual assumption is that a 1:8 ratio for hardwood and 1:6 ratio for softwood makes a good solid joint. At the end of the day, the actual angle is not likely to make that much of a difference as long as you are in the ballpark.

Pine requires a very sharp chisel to cut end grain nicely. Then again, the more I use a chisel the more I appreciate how a very sharp chisel helps things a lot. I was told that cutting a dovetail in Pine might actually be more difficult than a hard wood. On the other hand, the harder the hard wood, the more difficult that becomes. So, I would probably not jump directly to Oak because it is really hard. Poplar is pretty soft, and even cherry is a lot softer than oak.

[Jim Koepke]

Lots of good advice on dovetail cutting.

Your 2nd set looks a lot better than some I have done since my 2nd try.

Almost all of my dovetails are in pine. It is a pain, but can be done.

Remember, when you mark a line from your first piece (pins or tails) the line and how you saw it makes all the difference in the world. Splitting the line will likely give you a loose fit. Sawing "to the line" can give a good fit without much chisel work if any.

Aim for consistency in your sawing. Take notes on where you are sawing and where you miss, what way and how much. Pretty soon you will have it in control.

As others say, the sawing needs to be perpendicular.

The saw has a lot to do with your work even though any decent saw can do the work. My current favorite for dovetails is an old dovetail saw I bought. It is beat up and missing some teeth, but it sure tracks nice. It seems like more "spirit of the saw" than the physical well being of the saw.

One of my considerations when laying out dovetails is what chisels are on hand. The bottom of the waste on the tails is just a little bit wider than the paring chisel to be used to clean them out. Same with the pins, don't want to try using a chisel that is wider than the narrow part of the pins when cleaning them out.

Chopping as opposed to sawing out the waste is the worker's choice. What ever works for you.

Here is one of my latest on a chair, made of pine, to hold the arm rest more securely to the leg.

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The chair has since been completed and given a coat of BLO & turpentine followed by a coat of tung oil.

BTW, just incase no one else mentioned it, make sure your chisel(s) are as sharp as can they can be.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Hello.

A bit hard to see in the picture, but when you cut with the saw, cut to the line. Cutting a bit away and then trying to clean up is *much* harder IMHO than just going directly from the cut.

Remember if you do tails first, the only really important part is to cut perpendicular.

Yes! This is my feeling exactly. Cut to the line. Don't worry about the angle of the cut too much at first, that will come with time. Focus on cutting EXACTLY square/perpendicular across the top of the end grain. This sets everything else up. If you initial tail cuts aren't perfectly square across, all other error compounds from there. If they are you'll be shocked at how easy everything else is to fit. IMO those first cuts are the most important part of cutting good dovetails so focusing doing them as perfectly as possible makes a big difference. That was what made biggest difference for me anyway when I was first learning dovetails, YMMV.

[Chris Griggs]

Also, this may have been mentioned already by be careful to avoid bruising your baseline. It helps to scribe the line pretty deeply and start the baseline paring process by just removing a v-notch right at the base. From there pare back to the line slowly. If you try to take too big of a bite with a chisel or really drive a chisel through with a lot of mallet force it pushes the chisel blade back past the base line and cause gaps at the base.

Also, my favorite dovetail video is Gary Rogowski's "dovetail doctor" video on the FWWs website. Its not step by step instruction, but it provides some great insight into how to avoid common errors. There are a few short dovetail videos on that site that are worth checking out if you happen to have an online membership.

Finally, FWIW, your second set of dovetails is WAY WAY WAY better than my second set was!

[Jim Neeley]

Paul,

A couple more suggestions:

* While learning it's helpful to level the top (end) of the board you're going to cut and use a consistant angle for your tails. It's not that this is necessary but it permits you to first learn to cut dovetails at a fixed angle (building "muscle memory") rather than each cut being unique. Kind of a "reduce the variables" thing.

* While pine is difficult to dovetail due to its proneness to crushing (requiring really sharp chisels), soft wood does have the advantage of being slightly "compressible", compared to a harder wood. If you use really hard wood, your cutting must be "spot on" while in pine it'll compress a tiny amount to help achieve a perfect-appearing fit. One alternative is to use two different species with one of them partially selected based on softness. For example, using poplar (janka hardness 540) for drawer sides and American walnut (janka hardness 1010) for a drawer front provides a nice contrast while the poplar will compress a bit around the walnut.

This is not an excuse for sloppy work but it does help with gaps! :)

You can google janka for hardness charts or go to http://tinytimbers.com/janka.htm

Jim

[Ron Kellison]

For learning purposes, find a decent piece of poplar, mahogany or cherry. All of these are harder than pine and I find them easier to cut joints in than pine. All of these woods hold the edge better than pine which will help you figure out what's going on as you try to improve your technique.

Ron

[Bob Warfield]

I've been watching Rob Cosman's online workshop for over a year now. He is an excellent instructor. It's been probably the best investment in hand tool working I have made. His dovetail training is excellent.
Good Luck---Bob

[Jim Matthews]

You learn fast.

Shorten your scribe lines to allow each piece to protrude a little (proud).
In a carcasse, you plane down to the final dimensions.

Have a look around on how to fix the inevitable mistake.
FYI - I like cherry, and it's MUCH easier to cut dovetails in finer grained woods.

[Paul Sikorski]

Chris I think I finally understanding the bruising the baseline concept I dont think I v notched enough out though but it did seem to tighten up at the inside edges a little this time. Jim, I think I should pick up one of those dovetail saddles making sure I build the muscle memory makes to much sense to not do it. Thanks Jim, I will mark them proud and plane down from there, I kind of wonder if my marking was part of this runs issues. Work has kept me busy but I did manage to steal some time to cut one this morning ( I am trying to do one a day). I planed some cherry down to about 5/8 and gave it a shot I feel like it was easier to cut and as weird as it sounds even chisel but I think the pine hid alot of errors to I feel like I took a step backwards a bit. But if it was easy everybody would do it right. I did the tails first again, I actually meant to do pins first this time but out of I guess habit or whatever I started marking up for tails so I just cut them that way. Thanks again for all the help.
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[Paul Sikorski]

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I cant believe I cut this one. It actually looks good. I think Mom would be proud. Heres what I did different
1) made about a handful of test cuts just cutting to the line before I cut my piece
2) Pins first now and forever
3) cut every thing proud and planed down to flush.
I feel like a kid on Christmas morning.

[gary Zimmel]

Looking real good Paul...

[Jim Koepke]

Those look good.


2) Pins first now and forever

What ever works. One time while cutting dovetails for practice I tried pins first. It was my best set of the day. It gave me some insights into what was missing with my dovetails. My preference is still tails first, but it really comes down to what one is more comfortable doing.

Both ways (pins first or tails first) can create good joinery.

jtk