Need help on TS jig to cut bevels on edge of table top.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I will be making some, call them, hall tables. The tops will be from 12" - 16" wide, and from 28" - 36" long. 13/16" thick, give or take. Curly maple.

I will bevel the edges. Let's say 45*, removing half - maybe a bit more - of the edge.

I am hoping to avoid ideas that include the words "router table" or "shaper" or "hand plane". I don't have the first two, and I am looking for input that avoids the third - them I got. Table Saw. That's what I'm looking for. I know how to do it on a smaller scale. But that dog will die an ugly death on critters of this size. Not to mention the $$$$/BF for this wonderful stuff.

The aspect ratio of the tops push me to inquire about a jig for the TS, which will let me securely hold them on edge as I push them across the angled blade. Yer basic Uni, left-tilt, Biese fence. I have virtually anything and everything needed to make jigs. Except the ideas.

Ideas? References? Dwgs? Experience?

Thanks

Kent

[Bill Huber]

I some times can't see things but I think what you are wanting to do could be done flat on the table.

Here is a quick picture of what I think you are doing and how to do it. If you set a block against the fence and clamp, screw it or what ever then just raise the blade up and a 45° though the block and then use the block as your new fence.

But I a sure that I just don't understand what you are doing.

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[Peter Quinn]

This job screams "FREEHAND ROUTER", with a chamfer bit. No router table, no shaper needed (though that would certainly expedite the process). A few light passes using a climb cut, not even a struggle for a small router with a sharp bit.

If a TS is a must, I'd do the end grain face down on a left tilt, wood to the left of the blade, using a miter gauge with a stout backer. Then I'd make a box around the bies fence about 8" high, from 6/4 material (2 pieces of MDF face glued works well), has to be real tight to the fence on all sides, you can secure it with shims banged in on the right fence plate side. This will let you cut the long sides, face of the piece to the fence. Some would use a feather board to hold the stock to the fence, I'd just push it through at that size though. I use a tall box fence for all kinds of things like this, its the fixture that keeps on giving.

[Kevin Presutti]

I agree with Peter, without RT or Shaper freehand seems to be the only option. As far as the TS goes I would like to know what will you do with the saw marks on the bevel? If you hand sand and take a very sloooooow repetitive motion it would seem to me that the lines would turn out fair at best. A hand plane with a jig fixture would most certianly yeild better results. Since you expessed little to no interest to use a hand plane then as Peter stated a chamfer bit, with incremental climb cuts, with a freehand router seems like the best solution. If you are not comfortable doing the climb cuts with a router then the TS to remove the bulk and leave just a bit fat, then final cut with the router. This most certianly screams of a clean machine cut, considering the $$$$ of the lumber I would shoot for the best way of getting a final machine finish. Other thoughts you could do it on a jointer but the end grain would be a crap shoot. IMHO

[Michael W. Clark]

I would lay the top flat on the TS, good side up. Cut the ends first with the top on a sled on the right side of the blade. For the long sides, use the rip fence with the top on the right side of the blade. You will need to lower the blade or attach a piece of plywood to the saw top the same thickness as the base of your sled.

I'm assuming that you are trying to bevel the under side of the top to lighten the look?

[johnny means]

Is there any reason you feel this needs to be done on edge? I would move the fence to the left of the blade and attach a sacrificial face to the fence. Then I would tilt the blade and raise it into the sacrificial face at what ever height I needed my cut. Then its as simple as ripping off your bevel.

[Huck Schwee]

How about a straight edge and a circular saw tilted 45Deg?

[Rich Engelhardt]

I used my jointer to do a bevel similar to what Bill has pictured.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Heh-heh-heh.......

Sometimes a fella's mind gets dialed in and misses the rest of the forest.

Bill and Johnny nailed it for 45*. And - yes - I want to relieve the edge to lighten the look.

And - Kevin - good point. I was unclear. I didn't want to use a handplane starting with the square edges. I would certainly enlist Mr LA Block Plane to clean up the saw marks.

But, now I'm thinking about something more than 45*, or - if it is on edge - less than 45*. Say 60 or 30, depending on how you look at it. So - that can't be done with the top flat on the TS. Sorry to change the rules of the game in the middle of an inning, guys. I am doing this in the final stages of the design phase.............

So with that as a target - I would have to [a] do it on edge on the TS, or [b] make a one-off router-table-substitute to hold the router horizontal, and run the table tops across it flat. That may be the correct answer. Not that complicated. Slowly drop the router depth and make multiple passes - many of them.

Thoughts?

[glenn bradley]

Here's one of my router table fences for vertical work. Perhaps something similar that would straddle your TS fence would allow you to do the cuts with the material vertical?

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[Michael W. Clark]

Kent,
If its more than 45, you will need to go vertical, maybe there is another way around it, but not easily that I am aware of.

Question, primarily for my own benefit and going back to 45 degree discussion. I have a right tilt saw and always have thought that left tilt was supperior for cuts like this at 45. Why would the work need to be on the LH side of the blade with the good side down on a left tilt saw? I have made cuts like this on my right tilt with the work between the fence and the blade with the offcut falling away from the blade with no problems. Obviously, I have less table to work with, but if I did the same thing with a left tilt (work to right of blade, fence to right of work) then I could work wider panels. Maybe I'm missing something...

Mike

[glenn bradley]

I have a right tilt saw and always have thought that left tilt was supperior for cuts like this at 45. Why would the work need to be on the LH side of the blade with the good side down on a left tilt saw? I have made cuts like this on my right tilt with the work between the fence and the blade with the offcut falling away from the blade with no problems. Obviously, I have less table to work with, but if I did the same thing with a left tilt (work to right of blade, fence to right of work) then I could work wider panels. Maybe I'm missing something...

Mike

I don't think it is a left-tilt / right-tilt question. Safety-wise you don't trap a piece of material between the fence and "under the blade". This would be cutting a 45* edge on a right tilt saw with the fence on the right or the other way around for a left tilt saw. I know there are folks who do it and that's fine. Some folks don't wear hearing protection or seatbelts and that is also fine; just not for me ;-)

[Michael W. Clark]

I don't think it is a left-tilt / right-tilt question. Safety-wise you don't trap a piece of material between the fence and "under the blade". This would be cutting a 45* edge on a right tilt saw with the fence on the right or the other way around for a left tilt saw. I know there are folks who do it and that's fine. Some folks don't wear hearing protection or seatbelts and that is also fine; just not for me ;-)

Yes Glenn, that's why I was describing it the way I do it with the right tilt and the comparable left tilt version. The way I have been doing it, your offcut is under the blade but not trapped. The way others described it with the left tilt, your offcut would be on top of the blade. Its not pinched, but it is also free and sitting on top of a spinning blade. My luck is that it would come back and smack me in the mouth at the end of the cut.:)

I was just curious if there is something I'm doing that is less safe. I don't want to get the thread on a different topic. I'm interested in learning about the vertical cuts as I have project coming up where I may use it.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I did the same thing you want to do on a table 9'long & 38'' wide. I used a track saw set to 45 degrees cut all the way around from the top. Then I wanted a thinner edge so I drew a line back from the bevel & hand planed to the line. Worked great & I got to do a little hand work to boot....

[Peter Quinn]

Well, they make chamfer bits at lots of different angles, so if you need other than 45*, freehand router is still my favorite option. Of course a good tall fence fixture for your TS can prove valuable for all kinds of cuts so that might be worth doing just to work that into your repertoire. I made one at work with one 6" face and one 9" face that is reversible for work that might not require the taller size or where the taller size would be in the way of your grip on the work. It gets a lot of use.

[Kenneth Speed]

Bill's drawing shows a table saw with a blade that tilts to the left and most table saws tilt to the right, towards the fence. In that case the way to do this is to affix a sacrificial fence to the regular fence. Set the blade to the desired angle ( 45 degrees?) and lower the blade until it is under the top of the saw insert and then move the fence to a position where the blade will meet the fence below the top of the table top, you can check this setting with fair accuracy while the saw is NOT running. when you feel you have the setting you desire and the cut is BELOW the top of the piece being cut Lower the blade again, turn the saw on and raise the blade until it is cutting into the sacrificial fence and try a piece of scrap to double check your setting. When the setting is correct you can run your material through the saw good side up. Make sure you do not stand directly behind the saw fence, it's unlikely but possible that a triangular off cut will shoot out from between the fence and the blade.

One can even miter a box this way but it is a pretty picky set up.


Ken

[Kent A Bathurst]

Glenn: Your router box fence is the type of thing I had in mind. thanks.

Michael, Glenn: It isn't a right-left tilt question. Actually, on my left-tilt Uni, I would do it opposite of Bill's diagram - I'd have the fence and the top to the right of the blade, good side up. The waste would just drop onto the table.

Jay: You've got a good point. Which, if put less gently would basically be that I am over-driving my headlights a bit, and relieving more of the hidden edge via handplane ain't no big thing, especially on little sissy tops of 16" x 36". ;)

Peter: I've only seen 30*, not 60*. In which case, the router would have to run along the edge of the top. While I could clamp some boards to broaden the surface for the base to ride on, I could also slap together a one-off router "table" with the router held horizontal. Also - you make a good point about an accessory fence, and occasions for its use. If I took the time to make a good one, a la Glenn's photos, I'd have something that would serve for a long time. I like the two-height idea.

Kenneth: I would challenge your assertion about most saws being right-tilt - at least, in the Uni-PM-SS class of stuff. 10 years ago, could well be. My left-tilt Uni was one of the first they offered [13+ years old], and is cobbled together from mostly right-tilt components. Since then, of course, they have been producing purpose-built left tilt, as have others.

All: Gentlemen, thanks to all for taking the time to throw down on the topic. It is very helpful, which is what I was expecting from this gang.

When it comes time for the bevel dust to fly, I'll try to remember to post what I did and - maybe - what I wish I had done instead. :D

[Peter Quinn]

Here is a sketch of the tall fence I use for bevels on a left tilt saw.

[Larry Frank]

I think that the jig that Glenn shows is the best way. I have done it that way a couple of times and it allows you to securely hold the board. However, as the board gets longer, you may need to make the jig wider on the other side of the fence so that it can not tilt as you are cutting it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Peter - got it. Thanks for the detailed explanation in the PM as well. Understood just fine.

[Peter Quinn]

Kent, if the work gets really large, or you are using a power feeder , it may be neccessary to clamp a strong back of sorts to the side of the fence opposite the blade at the outboard side. Generally a t square type fence is quite rigid at the front end, and stiff enough for most operations at the back. But when you change the fulcrum with the tall fence and/ or add the pressure of a stock feeder, you can easily cause the back end of the fence to drift a bit under load. I usually just clamp a large block to the back rails, you could put one front and back as out riggers if you felt you needed it, but I never have even standing a full size entry door on edge to slot for weather stripping.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Nope. No stock feeder, except the sweat-fueled one. This is an advanced hobbyist/custom shop, not a production operation.

I "get it" on the fulcrum and the torque effect. Thanks for the detailed input, though - it is always good to understand the outer limits, in my experience, so I can steer clear of design issues that could bring them into play.

Regards,

Kent

[Aaron Berk]

Wow, why is every one trying to reinvent the wheel?

Or should I say gasp! The Radial Arm Saw?

I've done this exact bevel on a larger table top by sliding it through my RAS with the blade sideways and beveled.

But I guess if you don't own a RAS.......:D

[Kent A Bathurst]

No, Aaron, I don't own one. Never did. Never will. No interest. That simply does not fit with my program. No need for one.

However - if I did get one - it would be from the Original Saw Company - one great big honking saw. Almost looks like that's what you are driving, yes?


Thanks for the input, tho..............;)

[Aaron Berk]

Dewalt Model GA with 14" blade and medium arm.
But I run a 12" on it. Keeps all my tools consistant (12" ms, 12"RAS, 12" TS) now for a 12" circ saw hahaha!


Well if you ever decide to drink the REAL Koolaid (LOL) the OSC will be a nice choice.
This bevel cut took me all of 3 minutes including setup and turned out perfect!

And I've got a 16" blade on standby in case I needed to do a very long slope bevel.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Yeah, well...........I just ain't in yer camp, Aaron. Nuttin wrong with an RAS, I just never had one and so I don't really need one, because I got it figgered out a different way - with the odd exception - which you got me on with this one. If I had more room, and more money, I would hunt down an OSC like a starving bloodhound.

BTW - very good 4-decade friend lives over on Burnside Island - a virtual neighbor of yours. After a few years, we figgerd out where and when the specs run at Tybee, in case you want to waste a few hours standing in the ocean, waving a stick at Ireland. :D

The downside is, of course, specs like the same water conditions as jellyfish, so you gotta man up and take a few hits if you want the trout. I've had two wrapped around my legs while a 24" spec was giving it up for the cause. Grit yer teeth, and keep the rod tip up. I run with an ultra lite and 4# or 6# test, with barbless hooks - the med weight with 10# and std hooks made it too easy to yank them outta the ocean, but then I decided - hey - let's see if I actually know how to fish. Lose more, but on that gear it is a stone-cold riot, chest deep in the Atlantic.

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK, folks........as I warned, I would post my version of the answer.

Basically, I took Peter's idea, but I did not build his Abrams tank version. 3/4" BORG RO ply. The sides are 10" and 6". tenons glued into dados, with internal glue blocks to reinforce those joints.

You can see that, bracketing the TS fence itself, I have 3/4" ply filler strips. Those provide space to house tee-nuts holding hex bolts tipped with acorn nuts - to provide some protection for the Biese, versus just the bolt ends. Used a square to align the tall fence, and then tightened the hex bolts to fix the fence in place. It ended up ever so slightly out-of-square/plumb. I tried holding the tall side against my jointer fence, and squaring the base that way, but it still was slightly out of kilter. So - the hex bolts were a good idea for fine tuning alignment. Easy to dial right in.

Results on a pair of curly maple tops shown. They are 12" x 30" and 16" x 36". I made a few quick swipes down the bevels [30* tilt on the TS blade] with a skew block to clean up the blade marks and inevitable maple burn. 13/16" top thickness; the remaining square edge is a hair under 3/8" wide.

EDIT: FWIW - I tried something that really helped quite a bit. In my left hand was one of those foam-padded jointer push block things. I held it against the tops a couple inches above the blade height. With my right hand at the back to align and push at the aux fence height, the left had could hold the top firmly to the fence, and push at the same time. Smooth cutting motion.

I'm pleased. Of course, the aux fence took a couple hours to make, and the 8 cuts took less than 5 minutes................ sounds typical, eh? But, I've got it in stock for the next time.

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