6ft Round table made from 12 pie shaped segments

[Larry Browning]

I am starting a new project to build a 6ft round table. The plan is to make the table top from 12 pie shaped segments of 3/4 in cherry plywood. My concern is getting these 12 pieces to fit together tightly without gaps. I have never built anything like this before and I am worried that fitting that 12th piece of pie in there nice and tight is going to be a nasty proposition.
Does anyone have any words of wisdom for me before I take on this task? BTW I am planning on making the cuts with a guided circular saw. I'm not sure how I could do it on a table saw.

[David Hawxhurst]

cut 11 pieces and assemble then make the final piece to fit the remaining blank spot.

[Larry Browning]

cut 11 pieces and assemble then make the final piece to fit the remaining blank spot.
That kinda what I was thinking. So that works well?

[Larry Browning]

Here is another idea that just occurred to me. Make two sections of 6 pieces each. Then trim the straight edges to be perfectly straight. This seems like it would be a little easier to execute.

[gary Zimmel]

Good call on making two sections Larry.

[Chris Tsutsui]

The wood turners would probably do a segmented platter this way if it had an even number of segments.

6 pie pieces for one half with 2 of the end pieces could even be a tad oversize, then use a track saw, slider, or straight edge and circular saw and trim the half perfectly flat so the points meet right up to the edge. DO the same with the other half and join together.

This might not be a recommendation if the top is heavy, but if you sandwiched both halves with the top halves facing each other. THen clamp + tape it together well. You can pass that on a jointer together so both edges get jointed in one pass and they should match very well.

[Pat Barry]

I agree with the two 6 piece sections and then glue the two halfs together. I recall seeing this done somewhere - maybe a Rough Cuts episode. But how are you going to get the pieces aligned precisely so that the top surfaces line up correctly? The thin veneer on the plywood doesn't leave much room for error? Will biscuits get the segment pieces aligned well enough?

[Howard Acheson]

Be prepared for the table to self destruct due to changes in relative humidity. The wood movement will at least cause warping but is very likely to cause splitting and opening of glue joints.

Tabletops like you are considering are done with veneers on a plywood or MDF substrate.

[Larry Browning]

Be prepared for the table to self destruct due to changes in relative humidity. The wood movement will at least cause warping but is very likely to cause splitting and opening of glue joints.

Tabletops like you are considering are done with veneers on a plywood or MDF substrate.
I am not doing this with solid wood. The plan is to use cherry plywood.

[Bruce Page]

Be prepared for the table to self destruct due to changes in relative humidity. The wood movement will at least cause warping but is very likely to cause splitting and opening of glue joints.

Tabletops like you are considering are done with veneers on a plywood or MDF substrate.

I think Larry will be OK using cherry plywood. Doing two halves of 6 each and trimming the two long edges with a good track guide saw is the way to go, IMO.

[Larry Browning]

I agree with the two 6 piece sections and then glue the two halfs together. I recall seeing this done somewhere - maybe a Rough Cuts episode. But how are you going to get the pieces aligned precisely so that the top surfaces line up correctly? The thin veneer on the plywood doesn't leave much room for error? Will biscuits get the segment pieces aligned well enough?
The plan is for splines running the length of the joint. Hmmm, hadn't thought about how thin the cherry veneer is. I may have to experiment with some scrap plywood.

[David Hawxhurst]

The wood turners would probably do a segmented platter this way if it had an even number of segments.

6 pie pieces for one half with 2 of the end pieces could even be a tad oversize, then use a track saw, slider, or straight edge and circular saw and trim the half perfectly flat so the points meet right up to the edge. DO the same with the other half and join together.

This might not be a recommendation if the top is heavy, but if you sandwiched both halves with the top halves facing each other. THen clamp + tape it together well. You can pass that on a jointer together so both edges get jointed in one pass and they should match very well.

i didn't think of that, but i like it and think it would work very well.

[Jerry Miner]

Are you sure you don't want to reconsider the cherry ply idea? This project screams out as a veneering project to me. No alignment issues, just fitting of the parts. My .02

[Larry Browning]

Are you sure you don't want to reconsider the cherry ply idea? This project screams out as a veneering project to me. No alignment issues, just fitting of the parts. My .02
I have never done veneer. Don't you need special equipment for that? Like a vacuum press?

[johnny means]

+1 on the veneering. It would be the customary way of doing this. No need for any fancy presses or vacuum bags, contact cement will work fine. Of course I'm talking about paper backed or phenolic backed veneers. Raw veneer would be a different animal.

[Larry Browning]

Hey, I am open to suggestions on this. I want this to be done the right way. Where can I learn about veneering?

[James Conrad]

Here is another idea that just occurred to me. Make two sections of 6 pieces each. Then trim the straight edges to be perfectly straight. This seems like it would be a little easier to execute.

Do you want all points of the sections to join in perfect alignment in the center? If so, this will not work. If not, you will need to trim them EXACTLY the same or you will have misalignment and make more of an oval table with more material you remove. You could use an inlay in the center to hide some of this.

As others have mentioned, this is a great time to venture into veneering with a vacuum press, who doesn't want to buy new tools?? Make your own veneers on the band saw as they are thicker and easier to work with and lay out in a radial pattern, which is challenging, but the end result will be very rewarding for you and the recipient of the project.

best of luck.
JC

[Cary Falk]

The problem I see with trimming 2 halves is having the tips of the points cut off during the trimming. Plywood would be a nightmare aligning with the thin veneer. Veneer on plywood or MDF would be my choice

[Randall Houghton]

Larry David Savage has a good DVD on traditional hammer veneering. Straight forward approach that does not require a lot of special tools and techniques. It's available through his website that I don't have link for at the moment.
Regards
Randy

[Larry Browning]

Well guys, I think I have pretty much been convinced to do this with veneering. I have been googleing the subject and the paper backed veneer and contact cement seems pretty promising.
What do you guy think of that idea? It looks to me like it is not much different than applying laminate. No special tools other than a really sharp knife. I was thinking I could use MDF as the base for this. But I would need to edge glue it to make the 6ft circle, but I think I could accomplish that without too much trouble. Also, any recommendations for a supplier?

[Larry Browning]

Do you want all points of the sections to join in perfect alignment in the center? If so, this will not work. If not, you will need to trim them EXACTLY the same or you will have misalignment and make more of an oval table with more material you remove. You could use an inlay in the center to hide some of this.

As others have mentioned, this is a great time to venture into veneering with a vacuum press, who doesn't want to buy new tools?? Make your own veneers on the band saw as they are thicker and easier to work with and lay out in a radial pattern, which is challenging, but the end result will be very rewarding for you and the recipient of the project.

best of luck.
JC
James,
I think I have about decided to got the veneer route. But on the point above about the center. I have a nice piece of wenge that I was planning on using in the center.
But if I go the veneer route, I may not need it. Also, I was thinking that I could cut the final circle shape after it was all glued together, to avoid that oval shape.

At his point all this is moot, because I am now leaning toward veneering. Probably not going to cut my own though. I kinda like the paper backed idea, as my perception is that trying to cut my own or even doing it with un-faced would really be difficult.

[Richard Coers]

Well guys, I think I have pretty much been convinced to do this with veneering. I have been googleing the subject and the paper backed veneer and contact cement seems pretty promising.
What do you guy think of that idea? It looks to me like it is not much different than applying laminate. No special tools other than a really sharp knife. I was thinking I could use MDF as the base for this. But I would need to edge glue it to make the 6ft circle, but I think I could accomplish that without too much trouble. Also, any recommendations for a supplier?

Paper backed and contact cement are not the way to veneer a table. Contact cement will soften with mild heat, even hard sunlight from a south facing window. It is really not a long term method. Paper backed can get into trouble with solvent based finishes, even the contact cement will soften from solvent based finishes. If you want a fine piece of furniture that will last a couple generations, go with a vacuum setup. Lots of diy online for making your own bag.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> The plan is to use cherry plywood.

That will work just fine. The issue is to get good cuts with your saw. How do you plan to cut the circle segments? Normally, you would cut the segments as triangles and glue them up that way. After glue-up, you would cut the panel into the circle using a circle cutting jig on your band saw.
Using a pre-veneered substrate, you will have zero tolerance for anything but perfect cuts and level glue-up. With today's thin veneers you have virtually no option for sanding seams flat. In our shop we did tabletops like you are considering by veneering a substrate we pre-constructed into a circle. Veneers can be moved around to mate with edges and can be trimmed slightly to get perfect joints.

[Larry Browning]

Paper backed and contact cement are not the way to veneer a table. Contact cement will soften with mild heat, even hard sunlight from a south facing window. It is really not a long term method. Paper backed can get into trouble with solvent based finishes, even the contact cement will soften from solvent based finishes. If you want a fine piece of furniture that will last a couple generations, go with a vacuum setup. Lots of diy online for making your own bag.

At this point I am just not prepared to go with a vacuum setup. I know less than nothing about how to do this and it scares me to death! I thought I was stepping WAY out of my comfort zone to try the paper backed stuff. Why does contact cement work well with laminate and not paper backed veneer? I am planning on a waterborne Target finish, so at least that will not be an issue.
This is going to be mostly an ornamental piece anyway and will get very little use other than on special occasions. Is it really that bad of an idea???? I am VERY disappointed! :(

[Larry Browning]

>>>> The plan is to use cherry plywood.

That will work just fine. The issue is to get good cuts with your saw. How do you plan to cut the circle segments? Normally, you would cut the segments as triangles and glue them up that way. After glue-up, you would cut the panel into the circle using a circle cutting jig on your band saw.
Using a pre-veneered substrate, you will have zero tolerance for anything but perfect cuts and level glue-up. With today's thin veneers you have virtually no option for sanding seams flat. In our shop we did tabletops like you are considering by veneering a substrate we pre-constructed into a circle. Veneers can be moved around to mate with edges and can be trimmed slightly to get perfect joints.

I am planning on either using the bandsaw or possibly a router to cut the circle.

[Richard Coers]

Here's a link to a professional discussion on using contact cement and wood veneer. If the moderators don't like the link, go to Woodweb and use the knowledge base on veneers.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Veneering_with_contact_cement.html

[Larry Browning]

The way I feel about this now is that if using paper backed veneer is out, then I may need to reconsider the whole project. I looked at some of the stuff on vacuum presses and even finding a bag big enough to hold a 6ft table will be a challenge and the cost would be pretty prohibitive. I suppose I could go back to the original idea of plywood segments. Fooey, Fooey Fooey!!!!!!!!!:mad::(:confused: What a bummer!!!!!

[Mel Fulks]

Plastic resin glue will work for your table without a vacuum press.Mix the glue to a consistency where it immediately drips off the stirring stick when you lift it above the surface .DRIPS not streams ,let it sit about 15 minutes before using. Apply glue to veneer and table. Place a piece of plastic (a tarp or trash can liner will work) over the veneer,then a piece of plywood on top of that. Put spring clamps as close as possible all around and some weights on top of all that.In the middle maybe a 5 gallon bucket of water. You do not need to cover every square in of the plywood with weights. I have only done this with plastic resin glue. It is thin viscosity and slow set,used in the way I have explained it pulls down as it sets. This is not guessing, I have used it many times on laminate and veneer.Shown to me in a commercial shop long time ago.

[Mel Fulks]

P.S. The above suggestion is based on a one piece sub-strate and taped one piece veneer assembly. It works much better than contact cement and is much more permanent.

[James Conrad]

Larry don't give up yet! Have a look at this http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Projects/RoundTable/TableBlog9.html While this is the base of the project it is similar to how you would go about setting up the veneer for the top

I've never used contact cement for veneer work, as is stated in this article, nor would I probably use a PVA glue on such a large project. I prefer plastic resin glue as it is hard setting and just about stops movement in the veneer. But, he seems to use a paper backed veneer for use with contact cement.

[Jim Neeley]

Larry,

For online veneering information check out Joe Woodworker Dot Com. While his is primarily about vacuum pressing, he has other good info as well.

Jim

[Mike Henderson]

The problem with paper backed veneer is that the wood part of the "veneer" is extremely thin. Probably as thin or thinner than what you would have on plywood. I agree with the others that this is a project for regular (raw) veneer, but making a radial match is not a beginner's project. In addition to the problems of cutting the veneer accurately (you really should use a template to make the cuts), when you go to glue up a radial match with water based glue, you can have the veneer expand and not lay down properly (you'll get wrinkles). Quarter cut veneer will not expand as much as face cut, or a burl, or radial cut. If you're dead set on doing this with veneer, take a look at my web site, the tutorials section, and I have a tutorial on making templates.

I think you'll have similar problems if you try to go with plywood. You'd have to join the plywood extremely accurately because you won't be able to sand the pieces down flat (because the veneer is so thin).

The best way to approach this would be to find someone who's experienced in laying veneer to work with you and do this as a veneer project. You'll learn a lot in the process.

Mike

P.S. Oh, yeah, don't even try to do this with contact cement.

[Larry Browning]

So Mike, It sounds to me like what you are saying is "don't even try, because you will fail." This is not my first rodeo and I can cut a straight line.
It has been a long day at work, I am very tired. Maybe tomorrow I will have a better attitude. But it sounds like I am going to need to do some creative thinking about this.

[Mike Henderson]

So Mike, It sounds to me like what you are saying is "don't even try, because you will fail." This is not my first rodeo and I can cut a straight line.
It has been a long day at work, I am very tired. Maybe tomorrow I will have a better attitude. But it sounds like I am going to need to do some creative thinking about this.
No, that's not what I was saying. Please do not try to put words into my mouth. I tried to give you some advice based on my experience but since you apparently do not wish any advice, I will not offer any additional comments.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

I recently posted about why I no longer considered plastic resin glue appropriate for laminating door stiles,but it does work well in the veneer situation with no ill effects from the water. Have not seen wrinkling using it on veneer. After assembly has been clamped overnight sometimes you will see slight unevenness in surface but it flattens completely upon full cure. Years ago the glue directions said to let the mixed glue sit for at least 10 minutes before use.They took it off a long time ago so most guys have never heard of it. It makes the glue spread and work better. Our friend might be well advised to simplify the pattern for his first veneer project, but the gluing method was tested and proven long before it was shown to me. It's a good method for those not skilled with veneer hammer and hot glue and not inclined to want to invest in the air bag stuff.

[thomas eaves]

I know i'am late to this party but how did it end? Larry did you make the table? Tom

[Larry Browning]

yes I did. I think it came out very well. I made the top from cherry veneer plywood in the star burst pattern. I had a few small sand through but was able the get it looking really good.
254497

[thomas eaves]

Larry, Thanks for posting a photo look good:). Tom

[Larry Browning]

that picture really does not do it justice. She was very happy with the table.

[Mike Cutler]

Nice work Larry. It came out beautifully. Did you also make the base components?

Well Done!!

[Larry Browning]

Nice work Larry. It came out beautifully. Did you also make the base components?

Well Done!!
Oh, yes I did. I had a little trouble with the heavy table top wiggling on the base.
Here is a link to that thread. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?197501-Table-top-wiggle

[Mike Cutler]

Larry

I've had the opportunity to be able to really examine some of Morris' and Gustav Stickley's work up close. Morris used very heavy timbers, but Stickley's solutions were close to yours.
The designs may be aesthetically different, but the same forces are at work. Still though, that is one big table!

Once again
Nice work

[Bill White]

I tried it years ago (before I became brilliant) with red oak. Sure did make some nice firewood after about 3 day's work. Phewww! :)
Bill