First Acoustic guitar build--Advise please.

[Tony Shea]

I have decided that my next project in the shop is going to be an acoustic guitar. I have been playing for years, and back when I started I always said to myself that I'd love to make one. Well now that I'm heavy into woodworking it only seems right that I try my hand at an acoustic guitar. Other than truing and planing stock to thickness, most of the work will be with handtools. Ok, maybe some router work will be used as well but that should be all of the tailed tools I own that will be used. A band saw would be nice but is not an option.

Anyways, I would love some advise as far as where to look for some decent tutorials or reading material on the subject. I just got the book, "Guitar Making, Tradition and Technology". I know this is a fairly old book on the subject but seemed well liked. A decent place for parts such as tuners, frets, truss rod, etc would also be nice.

My biggest question is to do with wood selection. I have decided that I def want a spruce top, sitka being the most common, but i'd be open to other varieties. I am lost on what I should use for the sides, back, and neck. I've seen anything from rosewoods, coco's, maple, mahogany, etc. I know they all affect sound and would like opinions on this.

This is a huge commitment and undertaking for me and I know I'm missing many aspects of the process. I'd love to hear the advise here on the creek if you think I'm biting off more than I can chew. If nothing else this should be a great learning process that I hope to gain a usable instrument out of.

[Sam Takeuchi]

For your first build, don't over complicate things by thinking too much. Personally I suggest you to go with the least problematic path. Sitka spruce for the top, Indian rosewood for sides/back and just go with the process. At this point, you don't know anything about how each part affect the end product and there is no real benefit trying to think of what materials to use other than for aesthetic quality. For your first build, your concern should be completion of the guitar. Guitar is one of those things you can easily get frustrated and give up before completion. Also messing up small thing somewhere, errors can snowball as you build along. Indian rosewood is at least rather straight forward, bend easily and glue fine. Added bonus being it'll look relatively respectable and more or less traditional, if you happen to slip up, gouge, split or have other blemish, it's a lot easier to hide than lighter wood. You can safely go with mahogany for neck.

Guitarmaking: Tradition and technology is a good book. You should have no problem completing a guitar through this book alone. It has both hand and power tool method and it provides you with insight into the process before you tackle the actual building process. Also you can visit Cumpiano's website for revision and new stuff to compliment the book.

I tell you, go with it. You can read so many books on this matter, and each book approach things differently and there is really no definite dimension, process, method or design, I advise you to remind yourself that you are free to modify as you please (within small and reasonable amount for a beginner). Once you get the hang of it, you start to understand how each part contribute to the end product and also you'll develop sense to know what to change to satisfy your gut feelings.

To get materials and parts, you can get everything from LMI and StewMac. Allied Lutherie also carries many variety of parts and materials, but they are more material centric than the former two. There are large number of musical instrument grade material suppliers, but it really doesn't matter at this point.

One thing you will need is a bending iron. You can make one with a steel pipe with gas burner or coal inside, or if you want to go hardcore traditional, cast iron oval steel rod heated in fire. You can buy an electric one from above mentioned suppliers but they are expensive. You will also need a saw to cut fret slot. Normally 0.023" or 0.025" kerf saws are used for that. If you have a dovetail saw and kerf is bit wider than that, you can modify your saw set to suit fretwire at hand. You also need a circle cutter, but if you are using a router/laminate trimmer with circle cutter attachment, you are fine. Having a shooting board at your disposal is a very good idea.

I think other than those, you are pretty much set as long as you have a basic set of woodworking tools. Don't try to get too fancy at this point. It's hard enough completing one guitar at this stage, getting fancy and using cocobolo would be just so problematic. And don't use epoxy for glue up anywhere. Original Titebond or hide glue would be ideal. Some people reported success with fish glue, but I'm still not too certain about that myself so far. A lot to do with me living in high humidity area. If you decide to use abalone for rosette or inlay, be mindful that the dust is toxic.

[John Coloccia]

I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment, but I strongly recommend that you read through Cumpiano's blog AND be sure you see his "new' bolt-on neck attachment. As he's told me several times, "That book was published 20 years ago...that's half a career ago....and I've since moved on and improved". He also has some videos on LuthierTube.

[george wilson]

Sitka spruce is used a lot by builders. Gibson and Martin guitars are made with Sitka unless custom ordered with different spruce. German spruce sounds a bit brighter than Sitka. Appalachian is sort of in between. The important thing is not the species,it's the SELECTION. I like to use hard samples. Grain closeness often has NOTHING to do with how hard the spruce is. Real good sounding Martin guitars have been made with wide grained spruce tops as well as close grained.

Maple backs and sides have been gaining popularity in steel string guitars. Some say the strings sound better longer than on rosewood guitars. Maple should be hard maple,not the softer types like big leaf. Maple makes a bright tone.

Brazilian is considered the best rosewood,but is now protected. Gibson and Martin both got raided and fined. Their stock of OLD Brazilian,and instruments made from it were seized. I've never been real interested in East Indian rosewood,but have made many guitars from it. I guess I just like the vintage rosewood type.

Try to find a good hard piece of mahogany for the neck. A heavy peg head makes for a louder guitar as it helps keep the vibrations from leaking away from the bridge end. Use rosewood,not ebony for the bridge. Weight in the bridge is your enemy. I also use a largish TAIL BLOCK. It once again,helps make the vibrations go to the bridge,if it is the easiest thing to vibrate being lighter than those other objects.Brazilian rosewood is,again,stated to be better than other rosewoods for the bridge. I don't know if anyone has tried ALL the rosewoods out there for bridges.

Don't get carried away with weighted peg heads or tail blocks. I've seen builders LOAD the peg heads and tail blocks with lead bullets. Too much weight,and the guitar can start sounding harsh,and I get nervous listening to them close up. Something obnoxious about them.

There is Brazilian rosewood that is not grown along the Amazon river,so it isn't considered the same as the Amazon wood. I can't recall its name,though. John C. likely knows,and knows if it's legal.

Make the growth rings on your internal braces,especially the top braces have their grain VERTICAL to the top,NOT horizontal. It hurts tone if you get them wrong as the wood flexes easier with the grain vertical just as the top is vertical(quartered) grain.

Hide glue is best. It gets hard and transmits sound better. White,old fashioned glues slide a bit under pressure,and even dovetailed neck joints will pull out a little. Fish glue is used a lot on old Spanish guitars. It is more susceptible to moisture,but makes good tone. I'd use hide glue for ANY part that might be removed in the future for repair,and that covers most everything except maybe peg head overlay!!

I could go on for pages,but am tired.

[John Coloccia]

re: Brazilian Rosewood
I don't know of any Dalbergia Nigra that is legal grown anywhere on the planet. The de-facto replacement has been Indian Rosewood. It's pretty close. You can still get legal Brazilian that's been sitting around in the US, but I stay away from it at this point. Honestly, I've played guitars made out of pretty much every wood you can imagine, and I honestly can't tell what's what. Cumpiano's shop looks like a rainbow of guitars...I think he's trying to make one out of everything. I played one some months ago with a sycamore neck. They ALL sound fantastic, but they're all different. Pick a wood that's easy to bend. E. Indian bends easily. Any figured wood, especial a figured maple, bends very poorly and will fight you the whole way.

George is dead on regarding selection. The stiffness varies so much depending on exactly how it's cut. Perfectly quartered spruce is just so much stiffer. If you want really prime spruce, get Lutz spruce from Shane at http://www.highmountaintonewood.com/. You'll pay a pretty penny, but it will be perfectly quartered and consistent. Shane knows exactly what he's doing and what instrument makers are looking for. Ditto for braces. Split bracing is best.

I don't think you're biting off too much. Guitars are NOT that difficult to build, but it is an exercise in performing a lot of very simple tasks with some reasonable precision and IN THE RIGHT ORDER. There are no straight, square lines on a finished guitar. The only thing that is truly straight are the strings between the nut and the bridge. Everything else is curved and out of square. That makes it important to have a plan for each step for once a straight line is blown away, it's gone forever. Really, though, it's just not that difficult to make a guitar that plays, and that should be the goal for number one. Get it together, get through the whole process at least once, and get it playing.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I don't mean to be a partypooper, but I think all this is bit overwhelming for a first builder who just wants to get his hands dirty. He's not even at the point where he can tell the typical characteristics of Sitka, Engelmann, European, Carpathian or whatever other spruce commonly used today. Certainly all this would be a useful information down the road, but feeding his stuff about stiffness when he doesn't even know where to get materials from, I think that can be quite intimidating. Last thing you want him to think is having doubt about the material he acquired, thinking too much about stiffness and density, grain count per inch (gasp!) and doubting the material at hand. What's nice about the first build is the blissfully ignorance and naive approach where only goal is to completing a guitar. If he wants to continue building, he can drown himself in the the depth of material selection, but I really think having too much to consider before he even starts can be off putting.

[John Coloccia]

Hey George, your inbox is full :)

Sam, he ASKED for opinion on wood.

[george wilson]

Try now,John.

Sam,what you say is true,but I wish to heavens that I had had guidance when I began building in 1954. It would have shaved decades off my learning curve!! NO books,NO experienced guys around,NO place to even buy fret wire,no place I knew to even buy wood back then. I was in Alaska,about as culturally deprived a place as could be found back then. I couldn't find spruce because the Ketchikan Spruce Mill was sending 3 million bd. Ft. a year to rebuild Korea. I was 13,and a decent craftsman for my age,but not informed as to any of these processes.

Tony,if you buy the most expensive spruce top you can afford you'll likely get a good top. The Luthier's Merchantile sells everything. So does Stewart McDonald(sp?)MacDonald? I have so much wood I haven't needed to buy any for years.

[Sam Takeuchi]

There are a lot of good information to utilize once getting hands dirty for sure. I wish I had someone to guide me when i started, too. I wasted a lot of materials because I made simple mistakes, miscalculations, allowed sloppiness and general lack of craftmanship creep into the guitar and was totally infuriated that the guitar came out totally crappy. If someone was whipping my wrist for being sloppy every time I allowed myself to be so, I would have improved at much much faster rate for sure.

I think there are some information that stands like road block, because it can be so overwhelming. When I was still building my first couple of guitars, I stumbled across article on plate tuning utilizing chladni patterns and I was obsessed and despaired over it. Reason I got obsessed over it was that it was interesting, made sense and it seems like method that allowed consistent result. On the other hand, I despaired over it because I didn't have a setup to produce nor measure such pitch and I lacked skill to treat the plates in such way to creat uniform and symmetrical surface to create the kind of pattern I saw in pictures.

After a while, I was totally happier putting all that aside, just tackling the plates, tapping, measuring thickness, planing and scraping until I felt satisfied in my gut. In the end, there are imperfections and blemishes, but that's okay. Same reason I bend sides by hand. It's the part that's me. I can bend them quite well, but they are not perfect mirror image of each other, but that's because I did it by hand. It's very satisfying. You got to enjoy the process no matter what. The part I hate the most is...cutting fret slots by hand. It's the most boring, tedious and tiring part of guitar making. It's probably good to do it by hand for your first guitar, but if you proceed to make another one, I highly recommend buying pre-slotted fingerboard or do it on your table saw if you have one.

If some things are bit daunting, places like LMI (I think StewMac as well) sells a kit. It can be an option if you want to jump into the fun without grunt work.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I haven't tackled an acoustic (I'd like to, but I don't ever play acoustic, so I don't know what I'd do with it) but having built several electric guitars, I tend to be wary of kits - certainly a kit is a different prospect on an acoustic than an electric, of course.

Sometimes the kits can be a good proposition; (although get one either from somewhere reputable or with good reviews - a lot of junk kits are available on eBay or places that mainly sell door hardware - I don't know which places are good and which are bad, but I have seen a fair lot of them are just junk) but you have to be wary - when a kit does too much for you, all you're really learning to do is put together a kit.

It's not quite like building a bookcase from a knock down kit, but it's the same lack of sense of accomplishment at the end. You might go the extra mile to make that kit really nice, but in the end, you learned how to put together a kit, and not build a guitar, just like at the end of that bookcase you learned to put together a kit and not build a piece of casework. There can be steps that don't seem like anything important that are really an integral piece of the knowledge of making something like that from scratch. Of course, it doesn't sound like Tony's looking for a kit, either.

That said, with an acoustic, there's a lot more little tasks than an electric, so even with a mostly-complete kit, there's still a lot to learn, and there's nothing wrong with using a mix of hand-made and pre-made parts or a kit of some sort to get at your finished project. I think the crucial step when working a kit is to stop and understand what's already been done for you, and how it effects the final result, so that you have a complete understanding of the way the piece works. I'm a big fan of letting someone else saw my fingerboards for me if I'm not looking to use a specific piece of wood that I have. I've gotten some from a fellow on another message board who has done a great job selecting stock for me making them to my specifications. I understand how to lay out a fingerboard, scale length and all that - and I'm perfectly able to do the task. But I'm more than willing to pay someone else to do that task. Same thing with making thin wood out of thick - I'm familiar with the concepts of resawing and thicknessing, but I don't have ready access to the gear to do it. If I'm not looking to make something out of a special piece of wood, I'm more than happy to pay a little more to save some work and get something close to what I want, knowing what to expect from the place, and that I'll still need to do work to make it perfect. (Of course, making electrics, this isn't nearly as crucial as acoustics - maybe acoustics you really do want to do this step on your own. So find out!) What I don't want is someone to cut all my joinery for me - that's a task I enjoy, always feel the need for practice, and when I first started, wanted to learn how to do.

With the number of tasks in an acoustic, however, you may want to sub some tasks out even if you want to add them to your repertoire. Perhaps you want to buy pre bent sides, and learn how to fit them now, and learn how to bend in preparation for the next instrument. It's all a value calculus that the prospective maker has to calculate for themselves.

I just think there are some things that need to be looked at objectively - I know some folks were convinced they'd be a premade neck, knowing that it would need a little work, and that that little bit of work would teach them how to make the neck for the next one. That really only teaches you how to do that last little bit of work, however.

One thing I do know - if you haven't bent wood like this before, buy or make a lot of scrap - you're going to want to practice and have the technique down before you go bending your perfect sides!

Sorry, this was a bit of a pointless ramble - I'm sure I could have worded this better.

[Tony Shea]

All great information so far. I basically have just started reading this book and so far is very interesting and informative, very excited to get started and get materials coming in for the project. I'm at the final stages of my bench build that has taken all my spare time for the last couple months but am finally a couple days from being done.

First question, is the spruce that Stew Mac offers for their tops decent material? Anyone actually use their spruce? I read that split spruce would be best, is their tops split. I would like to be somewhat picky on my selection of wood, even being that it's my first attempt, as their no point in putting all this time into something with lesser quality materials. I plan to play this instrument myself therefore want it to be a respectable user. I think the other woods I can get through Gilmer.

The neck joint is my next question. The book Im reading reccomends using a pinned neck joint as this is a bit easier to do with hand tools. I have no problem using a router for this operation. So would a dovetailed neck joint be a bit more strong?

[george wilson]

I think Luthier's Merchantile in Healdsburg,Calif. might sell split spruce tops. I would not be concerned about Stewart Mc's quality. If you pay a good price,you'll get a good top. DO NOT buy Englemann spruce. It is always too soft. Some claim it is the same as German spruce,and even substituted for it,but I have not yet seen an Englemann top that is as crisp as a good German top. Sitka is a good choice if you don't want to go German. Martin and Gibson guitars use it as standard.

Many makers use a pinned joint. Some even just glue a neck flat to the body,no joint at all. This will hold UNLESS the guitar gets a sudden whack. A dovetail joint adds more wood to the weak,cross grained heel. I prefer it.

Some are even gluing on tangless frets,but I don't recommend that either. Lots of modern short cuts out there. The old ways are the best. Lutes had necks flat glued right to the body,with a long nail run up inside from the neck block. Lutes have less string tension than modern steel strings,though.

One of my apprentices took to putting lute necks on like that. He would temporarily glue the neck to the body while shaping it. Then I saw him spending a lot of time slowly prying it loose with a bacon turner. I took it and gave the neck a sharp whack on its front surface with a small brass hammer. It popped right off. He was surprised to see how much effort he had been wasting!! I always used a sliding dovetail on my lute necks.

[Trevor Walsh]

I hope one day to start playing again and to build a guitar, I picked up Build Your Own Acoustic Guitar. It's a good book and covers a lot of options. It's thorough without getting too technical like Sam mentions, I made templates and a mold and was all set to do it but other things came up. You know how it is.

[John Coloccia]

The neck joint is my next question. The book Im reading reccomends using a pinned neck joint as this is a bit easier to do with hand tools. I have no problem using a router for this operation. So would a dovetailed neck joint be a bit more strong?

Again, I recommend you read Cumpiano's blog and look at the modern bolt-on neck that he writes about, recommends, and uses himself.

[Tony Shea]

I think Luthier's Merchantile in Healdsburg,Calif. might sell split spruce tops. I would not be concerned about Stewart Mc's quality. If you pay a good price,you'll get a good top. DO NOT buy Englemann spruce. It is always too soft. Some claim it is the same as German spruce,and even substituted for it,but I have not yet seen an Englemann top that is as crisp as a good German top. Sitka is a good choice if you don't want to go German. Martin and Gibson guitars use it as standard.

So I just checked out the Luthier's Mercantile site and was looking at some of their woods for a top. I've seen so much on using Spruce (specifically Sitka) that I just assumed that's what I'd use. Well I see LM is offering some other choices, specifically Alaskan Yellow Cedar. Anyone have any experience in using this for a top and how the tone compares? I have a couple real nice pieces of this stuff that has been in my shop for over a year and have been waiting for the right project. Just by feel, it seems very similar to some of the spruce I've worked with over the years. But this is just my experience and does not relate to guitar making what so ever. I never expected to be making a guitar back when I was working with spruce. Just something to throw out there real quick. Chances are I will still use a spruce top for my first try but think it might be interesting to make another out of the Alaskan Yellow.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think it's perfectly do-able. It's crucial that your stock is as quartersawn as possible. If it's flatsaw, don't bother, it'd be too weak. Tone wise, it's hard to say. As silly as it may be to make broad generalization, normally cedar tops produce quite different sound compared to spruce tops (I know not all spruce are this or that...), while spruce top takes some time to "open up" and settle into the optimum sound, cedar are considered to be completely settled from the beginning. BUT that is not to say cedar is better, as I said, it sounds quite different from spruce top and some of very well known guitar makers completely reject cedar as inferior alternative while other great guitar makers praise cedar top. So it's not right or wrong. If you have a good chunk to play with, I think it'd be a good experiment to make a guitar with it.

[george wilson]

NO,do not use Alaskan yellow cedar,use spruce. Spruce is a very stiff wood for its weight,which is why aircraft were made from it. Cedar guitars sound too dark. I think Jose Ramirez started this cedar thing years ago when he bought a bunch of old mine timbers of what looks like quartered redwood,and began making guitars from it to save money. I do not care for the sound of cedar guitars myself. I am sure eventually fail structurally,because cedars are not as strong as spruce.

Maybe I'll get flak for saying this,but after building since 1954,this is what I think. I think the whole cedar thing was a cheap move to save money.

I had a friend who knew Jose Ramirez. His father started their business. My friend said that this Jose could hardly get across the street by himself. His shop employed other makers who actually made the guitars. They were allowed to press a cheap rubber stamp with their initials onto the heel block. Otherwise the guitars carried the Ramirez label.

[John Coloccia]

I would only personally consider cedar on a OM and smaller guitar, but my preference is spruce. I would really only choose a cedar if someone really really wanted a small, mellow guitar.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Ignacio Fleta was a big proponent of cedar top. I don't really care for cedar top look and sound, I wouldn't discount it altogether. And Fleta's guitar was anything but mellow and small, so I think you can do quite a bit with bracing to get some punch out of it. So it can work...even on acoustic, I think.

I can't remember who the pioneer of cedar tops was (I should know), but what I've read was cedar was more plentiful (as larger part of the trunk was available) to offset dwindling supply of quality European spruce. And the fact is there are solid cedar top fans base and makers who swear by it, I don't think it's fair to say it's only for saving money. I have a few lying around I've been meaning to use, but so far haven't. I'm a spruce guy.

Edit: Jose Ramirez III!

[Tony Shea]

And one more question to get me started with buying my materials, parts, etc. What is the best way for a hand tool based shop to bend the sides? I plan to build a form either way i do it but in the book I've been reading he reccomends bending the sides around a hot iron pipe and relying strictly on the skills of your bending and keep showing the pieces to the form, not actually using the form to clamp the freshly bent sides in. I haven't actually read far enough to understand completely what he uses his form for but seems as though it's just a work surface not a clamping form for the sides. Other things i've seen use an inside form to clamp your sides in just after bending them to help keep their shape. Some opinions and tips on bending sides would help a lot. I plan on using the hot pipe method as this is the most economical for me.

[george wilson]

The form is used to keep all in alignment while assembling the body. On classicals,I use a form with the neck also sawn out of the form,and a 2" gap in the form to put the neck through. Classicals usually have an integral neck block with a "slipper") foot on it. Having a neck template on the form allows easy neck alignment. Also,the neck goes downhill towards the top on a classical,to keep the bridge low. I cut out a 1/8" piece of masonite and tack it to the bottom of my form. When I fit the neck,this helps assure that the neck is 1/8" higher than the surface of the top at the nut.

My steel string forms have no bottoms in them,and no neck extensions in them. I like to saw the forms out with 1 clean,accurate bandsaw cut. Then,I save both the inside and outside of the forms.

With a flexible strip,bend it around inside the exterior form and measure it to the center of the waist. Write this on the form. I start bending sides at the waist,and like to know exactly WHERE to bend the wood. This is the hardest curve to make unless you're making a cutaway body. You can use the INTERIOR "left over" form as a template to push the waist against the iron with. After I get the sides bent enough that they will go into the mold,I use the mold with the sides in it to refine the shape,iron out irregularities,etc.

Try to not scorch the wood. It's a job scraping out those deep scorch marks. I used a propane torch inside a 2" copper pipe(iron rust makes indelible blue stains on maple) throughout the 60's. This works,but is hard to control heat with. An electric bending iron is better,but costs money. I used one of those for several years after the torch in a pipe.

Now,I have a very nice side bending machine I made from 3/4" aluminum plate. Inside,there are 3 300 watt light bulbs. They make the whole machine as hot as a clothes iron,but do not scorch the sides. The waist form in mine is heated and made from a block of aluminum bandsawed and belt sanded to the curve of the waist. It is hollowed out with the mill,and lined with furnace luting cement-super sticky when wet. I didn't want it letting loose and allowing the heating element wires(robbed from a heater) to short circuit. This keeps the nichrome wires from shorting out against the aluminum. I use a light dimmer switch to control the heat so it doesn't scorch. The right position is marked on the rotary switch. My side shapes are sawn from 1/4" aluminum plate. A different pair for each shape I wish to use. Steel rods connect the 2 side forms every 2". Stainless steel sheets bridge their gaps smoothly.

The sides are sandwiched between sheets of .020" stainless steel. The machine is pre heated. Wear gloves!! The sides are inserted,then the waist form is cranked down snugly. Then,powerful springs with bakelite cross bars are brought down around the bouts of the sides,pressing them against the shape forms. The whole thing is allowed to cook for 20 minutes,then turned off and allowed to get cold. I've never broken a set of sides with this machine. It is a refinement of the plywood "Fox",or "universal" benders you can buy or make from kits. But,mine is a LOT better as it cannot catch fire like those CAN,and mine has the heated waist caul.

I'll have to make pictures and post them. Been holding off as the forum is rather dead during the Summer due to vacations.

[Sam Takeuchi]

For bending, you don't need to use form to check progress of bending. You can just use half template for that. I don't bother to keep bent sides in mold or form. They shrink (curves get tighter) or spring back as they cool, so I just let it sit overnight to move as they please, touch up the next day so that sides are accurately in shape at their most relaxed state and cause no stress when built into the guitar.

As long as you don’t have your bending iron too hot, I wouldn’t worry about superficial scorching. They’ll easily sand/scrape off. You keep moving and don’t stop at one spot for more than a couple of seconds, you’ll be fine. Depending on materials at hand and grain structure, you might get tiny splits, very small and narrow, like ¼” to ½” wide. If you see the beginning of split and see small section beginning to lift, stop and assess the situation. You can use a steel slat as backing material to prevent that, but it can be very bulky and awkward if slat is oversized. If you already have a split, you can use CA glue to fix it. After gluing it back with CA glue and scrape it clean, it should look pretty invisible. CA will withstand the heat from bending iron pretty well and hold even if you have to continue bending the same part. Just use more caution and back that part to make sure they don’t pop back up.

Some people recommend boiling sides in water before bending. Some recommend spraying water onto the material. Some do it dry. Basically steam carries heat and penetrates wood fiber better, thus helps to bend easier. The downside is too much moisture can cause material to buckle, forming uneven surface that looks wavy. With a bit of practice, you can bend them dry and worry less about buckling. It’s not that much harder, you just need to be more thorough about heating the material. I do it dry now and I get much better result than wetting it. I think it has a lot to do with the thickness of sides. Since I build classical guitar, I plane sides to uniform 0.080”. At this thickness, bending is a lot easier, but doesn’t give a lot of room for error. If you burn or scorch too deeply, sanding or scraping it would cause it to go really thin. But it bends quite easily. I think you should just follow the book for now. There will be a time to experiment, but for the first one, probably not a good time to do it.

[george wilson]

You have your way,and I have mine,Sam. Together we are no doubt confusing Tony. I get my sides bent so accurately that they stand perfectly without the form. It is a matter of skill and practice,whichever method is used. Certainly,stress from the sides should be eliminated.

I even have made guitars experimentally with a form made of a flat board with nails driven around to make the shape of the sides,and using twine to lash the back on for gluing. These methods were used by some early builders who had no money or tools to make molds. Their skill carried them through with very primitive methods. Being in a museum,I was interested in trying early methods. The vaulted back 18th. C. guitars I made in Williamsburg pretty much had to have their backs lashed down when gluing,as there was no good way to get clamps on them. Another trick used by those who could not afford clamps,or take the time to make them. The picture shows a highly vaulted back guitar I made. The Ovation guitars are reminiscent of this style,though made of synthetics and molded.

This was accomplished by using a guitar shaped flat board with nails driven HORIZONTALLY around the edges(not vertically). The twine was looped around the nails,then passed up and over the vaulted back many times,until all gaps were eliminated in gluing the back,AND the top down to the sides. Too much pressure and the sides would cave inward from the huge built up pressure of repeated wraps of twine(like around your finger),so as usual,discretion is a must. Good joints should not need excessive pressure anyway. Sooner or later,bad joints squeezed together will open up anyway.

This type body is much trickier to make than the modern style,where the top and back are RELATIVELY flat,with just a little crown.

Avoiding scraping off scorches is definitely better than spending much time scraping them off,and making thin spots on the sides. Certainly,I'd never try to use sides with glued cracks in them. Sooner or later,they will begin to show. Ca glue I never use. The Furniture Conservation Lab in Williamsburg says ca glue is not a permanent glue,and will last only for about 20 years,less in sunlight. I'm taking their word for that,though its use is mentioned by some repair people younger than myself,and perhaps without the restoration education I was exposed to in the museum by a World class restoration department. Also,I don't want to risk glued spots showing up differently under a finish. Just risky practice. I cannot recommend this to a beginner for sure.

Bottom line,there is more than 1 way to skin a cat when it comes to bending,so no one should deny either method. They both work if the workman can pull them off. A guitar can be made with NO mold at all,just a shape drawn on a flat board,but I do not recommend it for beginners. I think advice should be framed in the context of who we are giving it to,and what their skill level might be. I'm recommending the SAFEST method to a new builder.

I cannot understand the statement that CA will stand the heat of the bending iron. When machining a small,difficult shaped object,I frequently hold it down by gluing it with CA to a block of metal. Just a little heat,and the CA releases the object at once,then a bath in acetone if needed.

About spruce: Stradavari never used cedar for tops. Neither did any of the great builders of the past. I am aware of a cittern built by Girolamo da Virchi in the 1500 with a Cedar of Lebanon top,but that is considered a sacred wood,so other considerations might have steered this choice. I'd sooner use quartered fir than resort to cedar(tried fir,too). Spruce has a higher strength to weight ratio than cedar. It carries sound better. Aircraft were not made of cedar. I'm glad we are both spruce guys. I did try cedar myself in the 60's,but didn't care for the tone. It has a close grain and looks nice,but I think it's a poor substitute for spruce.

No disrespect intended to other builders,we all have our preferred ways. But,with all things human,all ways may be guided by "that's how I learned it", or "that seems a cool way to do it" rather than being the most logical or efficient way. I have stated many times here that I do things the hard way,but I can pull it off. When advising a newbie,I'm giving the easiest way for their sake. They haven't done these processes hundreds of times since 1954 like I have.

We are both managing to make instruments our own ways. Let's try to give the safest,easiest to manage methods to a newbie for his benefit. That's what this thread is about.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Nothing to add to the conversation at hand other than beautiful work as always, George.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Sorry George, my post wasn't a "No! I do it this way without the form!" reply to your post. It was a reply to Tony's post about reading it in the book about using the form as reference. It was a simple "you can just use a template as reference" type of reply. You covered the question on form, I didn't say anything about that. And not scorching sides is ideal, but he'll be at his first try, I think his bending iron (or hot pipe) will be too cold or hot and will get some scorching at some point. I think that is totally within the context of his question and that it shouldn't cause a concern even if he finds superficial scorching. I definitely think no scorching is much better since I hate sanding and if scraping can be avoided, I'm happy, but it happens to a lot of us and it's okay even if it happens.

About fixing splits with CA glue, probably my wording was not clear. I didn't mean full blown crack and split. I definitely don't recommend trying to fix major crack with CA glue on guitars. It was about grain tear and tiny bit lifting from the surface about 1/4" to 1/2" wide, thin jagged piece that would follow grain run out if stressed further to cause tear. Normally I don't advocate using CA glue for anything, but in this case, it holds it together until bending is done. Stuff like Titebond, hide glue and fish glue didn't work well for me in this task. Most of it appeared only near the edge of side material where majority of it are removed as binding channel or totally hidden behind lining. So far I haven't come across any occasion where it could cause aesthetic or structural issues on the outside. Even if it is located where lining doesn't cover, it doesn't show once lightly scraped.

I have no problem with CA glue sticking together for the above mentioned case. I don't count on broken binding piece glued together with CA glue withstanding stress of waist bend, but for small tear mentioned previously, I've never had glued tear popping apart again even when worked on bending iron. Like I said, more caution is sensible in that situation (like apply steel backing or wooden block as backing), but I haven't experienced glue failure even under full bending force and heat. It's definitely not a museum quality repair work, but this case, it doesn't need to be.

I was extremely hesitant about CA glue for a long time. I still am and only use it in case like this. If I have to fix a genuine crack, I wouldn't use anything else other than hot hide glue.

I don't think I've written anything difficult or confusing in this thread. I basically said don't think too much, go with most common materials, don't scare off Tony with overwhelming technical stuff, this 'can' work, Fleta made great guitars using cedar, so might be worth a try and side can scorch, but that's okay. That's it pretty much. I think that's pretty newbie friendly through and through.

[george wilson]

We'll see how he progresses. I need to make pictures of some molds and my side bending machine,but have been busy with other things I need to get finished up.