Another 'best saw blade' question

[John Loftis]

Hey folks,

I'm ripping and crosscutting quite a bit of 8/4 hard maple and 8/4 walnut on my 10" Jet (3hp Xacta saw). Making and selling end-grain cutting boards. I've been using an 80 tooth Freud Industrial Ultimate Crosscut blade and a Freud Industrial 24 tooth glue-line rip blade. I'd give the blades a B- performance grade. They've worked, but I'm hoping for something better suited for my specific task.

Any suggestions on the best blades for this specific application? The technical guy at Leitz suggested that 60 tooth might be better than 80 for heavy crosscutting, but that's about as much guidance as I've gotten.

I need clean lines (glue lines) for both the rips and the crosscusts. I'm not loyal to any particular brand at this point. I know there are some good, niche blade-makers out there but I'm open to any suggestions.

Best,
John

[Peter Quinn]

Amana industrial Euro rip is my favorite for ripping 8/4 hard stuff. The glue line blades are made for thinner stock, less than 1", that amana eats maple with ease, it's a clean rip but probably not glue ready. I don't think you will find a glue line blade that excells at rips that thick, it's not in the design.

For cross cuts I'd go with a 60th, that's not so critical, many cross cut blades will do this well. As it happens I have that Freud ultimate cross cut, it's better for thinner stock, miters on panel molding etc., leaves a polished surface well beyond what you need for glue ups. But it's much harder to feed thick stuff. I'm using a DML 60 th I got on close out, works great on thick cross cuts, I stick to thinner stock and plywood with the 80th.

[Greg Portland]

John, reducing the number of teeth in the cut is going to help you out. I'm assuming you've already gone over all your TS calibrations (fence alignment, table alignment, etc.). Your Glue Line rip blade is recommended for materials < 1" according to Freud's website. I'm a little confused because you mention 24T but the glue line rip is 30T. The standard 24T industrial blade may give you better results (recommended for cuts up to 2.25"). For crosscutting, you have the same issue... your blade is intended for thin materials. Freud recommends the thin-kerf LU88 for dedicated thick crosscuts.

You can of course go after the Forrest for the crosscutting but they are more $$$. I have a mix of Freud and Forrest blades and get exceptional results when my TS is tuned and my blades are clean (on maple and walnut). Usually the blades intended for thinner work will function just fine if the feed rate is slowed.

[glenn bradley]

Don't take this wrong but, if you are not getting glue-line rips with the Freud 24 tooth. I would carefully check your alignment. I get glue-ready rips on a hybrid with thin and full kerf 24tooth blades. I do get superior results when I use feather boards or some other material guiding/stabilizing accessories as opposed to just hand feeding. If your alignment is good, you may be getting milling marks simply due to wood movement as stresses are released.

I am currently favoring Carbide Processors blades in 24, 50 and 80 tooth full kerf formats. You will have to take all blade recommendations with a grain of salt as there is a bit of "Ford vs. Chevy" element based on people's experiences. For example; I find Freuds easily superior to Forrest and I find Carbide Processors noticeably superior (but pretty close) to Freuds. Someone else may feel the exact opposite. The full kerf C.P. blades are more stable when it comes to being pushed around by released wood stresses. So they tend to come out when I need superior results in difficult situations. they also have enough carbide on them to pay for themselves over the life of the blade, sharpening-life-wise.

[Stew Hagerty]

OK, based on my experience, I have always gotten the best overall performance (including cost effectiveness) from Freud. My personal suggestions would be:

Crosscut - LU85R or LU88R

Rip - LM74 or LM72

ALso, if you have not tried it, Their "Premier Fusion" blade is the absolute best combination blade I have ever tried. It is my standard blade. I use it for virtually all crosscutting plus most ripping plywood work. I don't swap out for a non-dado specialized blade unless I am going to be doing an extensive amount of ripping or plywood/melamine work. Before the Fusion came out, I used the LU83 as my standard combo blade and have great things to say about it as well.

[scott spencer]

Are you looking for cleaner cuts than you're getting with either of the blades you're using now?

If so, for your crosscuts you might look to a Hi-ATB grind...it sounds like your current crosscut blade is the LU85 with a standard ATB grind. Infinity's 010-080 is an excellent candidate, as is the Forrest Duraline, Freud LU80, CMT 210.080.10. The Hi-ATB grind leaves the lowest tearout of any other grind....the downside is somewhat shorter edge life....keep it clean, and it should still go quite a ways between sharpening.

For ripping, you should get cleaner cuts with the Forrest WWII 30T than your 24T (LM72?)....50% more teeth without too much risk of burning. The 30T glue line rippers like the Freud LM74 aren't really intended to rip over 1", so would be a bit more prone to burning in 8/4" maple and black walnut. Most blades with even more teeth like a 40T blade would be even more prone to burning.

[Stew Hagerty]

Are you looking for cleaner cuts than you're getting with either of the blades you're using now?

If so, for your crosscuts you might look to a Hi-ATB grind...it sounds like your current crosscut blade is the LU85 with a standard ATB grind. The Hi-ATB grind leaves the lowest tearout of any other grind....the downside is somewhat shorter edge life....keep it clean, and it should still go quite a ways between sharpening. .

The Premier Fusion is a High ATB blade - 10" is 40T


The 30T glue line rippers like the Freud LM74 aren't really intended to rip over 1", so would be a bit more prone to burning in 8/4" maple and black walnut. Most blades with even more teeth like a 40T blade would be even more prone to burning.

Freud makes a Thick Stock Rip blade, the LM71M, but I have never used it. - 10" is 18T

[scott spencer]

The Premier Fusion is a High ATB blade - 10" is 40T


With a 30° top bevel vs 40° and half as many teeth, the Fusion won't give as clean of a crosscut as the 80T Hi-ATB blades like LU80, and it's probably too many teeth for his ripping needs.

The 18T to 24T rippers will do no better than what he's using.

If he's looking for faster cuts, that's a different challenge.

[John Loftis]

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. I couldn't remember the models of the blades, so I went and looked them up. The rip blade is the LM72 and the crosscut is the LU85. The saw is dialed in, tables waxed, yada yada (zero offense taken). My one confession is I've gone too long between sharpenings, mostly because I've been to cheap to buy a second set of blades so that I've always got a sharp set on hand. I'm in the process of rectifying that now.

What prompted this whole thing is I spent all day yesterday replacing my arbor bearings (I hate getting under the hood of my machines... definitely not my thing). I bought the saw used a couple years ago, but the previous owner was a light hobbyist. So I think it's safe to assume that my use of the saw in the last 3 years of making furniture and cutting boards has resulted in the worn arbor bearings. I know that this could have been caused by any number of things, and we could chase rabbits trying to determine the pathology of the machine break-down. My gut tells me that it's probably 50% due to under-sharpened saw blades, 30% due to sawing a whole bunch of really thick, dense wood, and 20% due to the blades themselves.

In my experience, hard maple does tend to release a lot of stress in the middle of rip cuts, resulting in some warping and burning (a surprising amount to me). This has been the case with hard maple sourced from many different vendors, from trees grown from many different places. I'm concluding now that this must just be one of the features of hard maple. Maybe others could corroborate or chime in on that. I don't have the same issue with walnut or cherry, my other two main species of cutting board wood. So I'm probably blaming my blades a bit for something that actually is the wood's fault.

I'm looking for cleaner cuts, not faster. With cutting boards, I need to go straight from the saw to the clamp up for aesthetic reason (all blocks need to be identical widths. I can't re-mill burned boards).

I'd actually like to try a non-Freud blade just for funsies. I'll get all the blades sharpened and then do a side by side comparison and see if I notice a difference. I don't want a combination blade, because I believe that I will get better results for this application with task-specific blades. I still occasionally use the old thin kerf WW2 for furniture projects.

Last thought: my existing blades are really good. I'm not knocking them, and I like Freud's stuff generally. For normal furniture making, I wouldn't need anything other than these two blades, I don't think. I just think that there might be something better out there for heavy cutting of 8/4 maple. I saw one tentative vote for Carbide Processors, and Scott had a number of suggestions. Other thoughts?
John

[Tom Willoughby]

I use a Forrest 30T WWII blade that I use as a combo blade. I find that it rips well and does a pretty good job at crosscuts. When I want a perfectly smooth crosscut, I use my SCMS with a 12" 90T CMT blade. I change the blade to a Freud 80T HiATB blade when cutting plywood. I also have a 40T blade to cut MDF and other woods that don't require a good blade. This keeps my "good" blades sharp for the expensive wood.

Tom

[John Loftis]

Just wanted to give an update. I decided to buy a pair of Carbide Processor blades. One was a 24 tooth glue-line rip blade, and the other was a 60 tooth crosscutting blade. My initial reaction when using both blades was, "Wow, this is like going through butter!" My Freud blades will be back from the sharpener in a day or two so I can do a side by side comparison then. But I'm really enjoying the CP blades. They've been tackling all my 8/4 hard maple with ease.

Lest I come across as a corporate shill, I will say that ordering the blades from them was a real challenge. It took me one PM on SMC (never responded), 3 e-mail contacts (they never responded) and then 3 phone calls to get the blades. But the persistence was worth it.

[Tom Walz]

Dear Mr. Loftis:

Please accept my apologies.

I am glad you like our blades. Believe it or not we also work very hard at good customer service.

1. I have no record of a PM. I will contact SMC and make sure it is set up correctly.

2. We are a small company with only two customer service reps. In addition, I am totally dedicated to employees having a good family life. Whitney had been at IWF with me so I gave her two days off to spend with her kids. It was on the second day you called. Whitney handles the instant chat and Emily and I did not do a perfect job covering for her.

3. These custom blades are made for us by Dave and Jerrimy Snook in Oregon. It took a couple phone calls to check on and arrange for expedited delivery.

We are working on the situation.
1. We are trying to hire someone. Unfortunately finding someone to give you and the rest of the Creekers the service they deserve is very hard.
2. We are looking for phones that will give us better access to the office while we are gone.
3. We have been so successful with custom blades that Snook’s saw is going to start making them in advance and will carry an inventory. These will be All American blades. Our advanced American carbide, American steel processed by an American company. Blades built by Americans in Oregon on American machines.

This is a big reach for two little companies and it will take us a while to build up decent inventories.

In apology I am sending you a couple of cool tools. One is our Super Scraper. A customer of ours makes these with carbide we sell them. This is a really heavy duty, carbide tipped scraper. A lot cooler than it sounds. We are also sending you a special layout tool from Woodpeckers, the router table people.

Sincerely,

Tom Walz
President
Carbide Processors, Inc.

[John Loftis]

Man, I feel like a schmuck. I never saw your reply here, Tom, and confess that I was really confused when I got those two items in the mail several weeks ago. Let me offer a very belated THANK YOU, both for the gesture and for the lagniappe.

As a small business owner, I totally understand the impossible balancing act of getting all the work done with a small staff. It's now obvious to me that you are working hard to provide both excellent customer service and a superb product. At the end of the day, I can't ask for anything more from a supplier.

I've got to give a big thumbs up to the idea of carrying some standing inventory of those blades. I still believe they are the best saw blades I've ever used.

Looking forward to many more purchases from you over the years!

Best,
John