Is this.... safe?

[Melanie Rys]

Hi Everyone!!!


I'm a sporatic poster and fledgeling woodworker, and i really just come here for help and advice. I am learning a ton, mostly through videos, hands on experience and trial and error.

And so i came across the following video about perfect box tops. http://woodworking.com/ww/Article/Perfect_Fitting_Lids_7393.aspx

Making (and fitting) the lids for the tack trunks i make.... well it's sometimes maddening. These are low quality cheap boxes meant to take a beating, not fine cabinetry. Still, they need to be flush when closed. The boxes i make are 36x24 (approx).... and well... this whole proposal seems incredibly unwise. Am i overreacting? If making lids is *just this easy* then it would make my life a ton easierr.

I guess what i'm asking... is.... does anyone use this technique? Is there anything to watch out for? Do you think the person who made this video is a crazy dangerous person who wants to lose fingers and have an entire box kickback at him and send him into the next life? Etc.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Melanie, the issue with the method in the video is that it isn't safe, however it can be made safer by adding a riving knife or low profile splitter to the saw.


The other issue is the exposed blade top, however there isn't much you can do about that with a non through cut on a large box. (For a non through cut on a piece of wood you should have an overhead or home made bridge guard)

A couple of feather boards would also help with the safety aspects, and on a box as large as yours, you need an outfeed table.

Regards, Rod.

[Henry Hundley]

Melanie,
This technique is a very common one. The only thing I would be concerned about is the size of your boxes. In the article they mention cutting the narrow side first - I would second that thought.

Note that this is a table saw activity so practice all safety procedures. It really boils down to if you are not comfortable with it either find a way to feel safe or don't do it. Maybe a little experimentation first?

Henry

[Jim Neeley]

Melanie,

There's a way to use this technique and make it far more safe, even with large boxes.

As recommended, cut the ends first but do not cut all of the way through the top. Then raise the blade to cut the long sides. Finally, complete the cut on the short sides with a hand saw (they're thinner than a table saw blade, so there's some extra space) and hand-plane the cut surfaces smooth.

This takes a bit more work but, if carefully done and not cutting too far through on the ends, holds the pieces properly spaced while cutting the long sides.

Just my $0.02.

Jim

[Pat Barry]

Rod - this wasn't FWW, it was Woodworking.com.

Melanie, I have done this before, with the wide box section up against the rip fence. You need your blade to be very well tuned at 90 deg to the table top. You need the fence to be very parallel to the blade. You need to secure the cut edges to prevent flapping of the top on the last cut. I used wide masking , two layers, applied to each side after cutting. This left something to hold it together so the last edge cut didn't rattle on the blade. One more thought would be to cut most, but not all the way through and then use a sharp knife to separate the parts

[Jerry Miner]

That is a classic technique. Done it myself many times. Using the kerf-sized spacers makes it stable and safe (any riving knife or splitter would have to sit below blade height). Some people do this by setting the blade height just BELOW material thickness (thereby preventing potential pinching of the blade) and finishing the cut with a sharp knife---then sanding off the leftover sliver. I just cut through with the saw, keeping the kerf open with the appropriate spacers. Try it. You'll like it.

Rod Sheridan: The article in the link is from Rob Johnstone, editor of Woodworker's Journal, not FWW.

[Bryan Cramer]

I do it all the time, but with small boxes only. Your box is too big to safely cut it. I use no splinter on my saw and it works fine. I do use spacers and tape the offcut on before it is cut completely off. Feather bords help. I always place the larger side between the blade and the fence. Don't raise the blade any higher than you have too, only one tooth above the thickness of the side of the box.

[mreza Salav]

Melanie,

There's a way to use this technique and make it far more safe, even with large boxes.

As recommended, cut the ends first but do not cut all of the way through the top. Then raise the blade to cut the long sides. Finally, complete the cut on the short sides with a hand saw (they're thinner than a table saw blade, so there's some extra space) and hand-plane the cut surfaces smooth.

This takes a bit more work but, if carefully done and not cutting too far through on the ends, holds the pieces properly spaced while cutting the long sides.

Just my $0.02.

Jim

^^^this is the way I do it, this way the whole thing is still one piece through the whole operation.

[Rod Sheridan]

.

Rod Sheridan: The article in the link is from Rob Johnstone, editor of Woodworker's Journal, not FWW.

Thanks Jerry, I've corrected my post...........Regards, Rod.

[Kenneth Speed]

I'm of the don't cut all the way through the material school and I've dome several boxes both fancy and plain this way. In fact, my joiner's box which must be around thirty years old and just about as big as your tack boxes was done in this manner.


Ken

[johnny means]

Thats exactly what we did in 8th grade shop. Pretty much considered a WW 101 technique. Nothing particularly unsafe about it. Mind your hands and fasteners and the worst you can do is marr your work piece. I do it more often than I care to admit with large cases. Despite the way it looks these types of forms we're talking about here dont really lend themselves to kickback. Especially as they get bigger. That being said, it still pays to be careful when working on a TS.

[Carl Beckett]

Melanie,

There's a way to use this technique and make it far more safe, even with large boxes.

As recommended, cut the ends first but do not cut all of the way through the top. Then raise the blade to cut the long sides. Finally, complete the cut on the short sides with a hand saw (they're thinner than a table saw blade, so there's some extra space) and hand-plane the cut surfaces smooth.

This takes a bit more work but, if carefully done and not cutting too far through on the ends, holds the pieces properly spaced while cutting the long sides.

Just my $0.02.

Jim

I do this.

Or the other suggestion to not cut all the way through the material thickness and then finish it off with a knife. (in fact given the size of your boxes, I would choose this method and then finish off with a knife or saw. By not cutting all the way through the material it reduces the chance of the wood springing and closing in on the kerf (bad). A riving knife is a good idea in general.

[Rick Gooden]

I don't build boxes, but in reading your post, and understanding your concern, this seems to be a case where a track saw such as festool, makita, or dewalt would work very well given the size that you are talking about. Just a thought.

[Peter Quinn]

I don't build boxes, but in reading your post, and understanding your concern, this seems to be a case where a track saw such as festool, makita, or dewalt would work very well given the size that you are talking about. Just a thought.

I was thinking the same thing. Easier to push the saw through the box when they get large. I'd do it on
my cabinet saw but probably not on a smaller saw. You need good in and out feed support.

[Sam Murdoch]

...however it can be made safer by adding a riving knife or low profile splitter to the saw[/COLOR].
Regards, Rod.


And in the case of a Bosch table saw as shown in this video attaching a riving knife is super simple following the instructions from this Gary Katz tutorial - http://www.garymkatz.com/ToolReviews/riving_knife.html

You will be amazed at the added level of table saw safety that comes from adding a riving knife or slpitter. Please do it if you haven't already.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Side note, when I did this, I did cut all the way through (on my small box). For the last cut, I then took a piece of wood the same thickness as the blade and used that to hold the cut pieces apart.... I taped everything together with this in place before I made the last cut.

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, yr boxes sound a little big for this kind of op on a table saw. My motto: if everyone says it's safe but it doesn't feel safe to me, it's not safe.

If you truly do a lot of these then it might be worthwhile to make a jig to speed the process. Rip the two 36" sides using the fence as a guide. Then use a shopmade sled to rip the 24" sides. This will provide critical support to the two halves of the cut and will allow you to clamp the lower part of the box to the fence of the sled, which is much safer than supporting with yr hands thru a rip cut.

You can make the sled cleverly wide enough to set the rip fence, so there's no guess work in aligning the 36" marks with the 24" marks.

If a standard crosscutting sled is too narrow to handle the 24" deep sides, then you can make a front-fence-only sled. The box would then be clamped to the front fence - not the trailing fence. I use one of these for crosscutting wide pieces on the tsaw when necessary.

Another way to do this is to make a track guide for a fine toothed circular saw. The track registers to the top of the box, then has guides to capture the saw base. Make it big enough to clamp to the box. On the 4th cut, clamp the track to both the top and bottom halves of the box, so when you complete the cut, it doesn't fall away in an undesirable way.

[Mike Cutler]

Melanie

Yes it's safe, but as others pointed out it could be made safer. It is pretty much exactly the way a 12 year old boy many years ago cut his first box lid. Under the supervision of a wood shop teacher.
However to cut a box the size of your tack trunks would be unwieldily. You might want to consider a purpose specific dedicated circular saw guide/jig to do the work on the floor.
I don't know that I'd call tack trunks low quality, or cheap. I know that the ones in the Dover catalog sure seem to be pretty $$$$. I've seen some pretty nice ones at the Equine Affairs through the years also.
Here is the one that I made for my wife.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?46908-Blanket-Chest-Tack-Trunk&highlight=

[Melanie Rys]

Thank you so much everyone for the replies!!!! I have several boxes lined up to make and if i can use this technique i think it will save a ton of time and frustration!!! Thanks again!!! :)