Somewhat political post......

[Carl Beckett]

I have a little home improvement project I am working on, and it requires some outdoor plywood. So I just add it to the list when at the local lumber yard - I need some pressure treated plywood. Ok no problem (other than I have to buy it in 4x8 sheets and I only need half a sheet and dont know what I am going to do with the other).

Imagine a half sheet of PT plywood with two square holes cut in it. Midway through the day on Saturday it starts raining - pouring even. I didnt worry about bringing in the plywood out of the rain... isnt that the whole purpose of PT??

By Saturday eve the rain has stopped and I am back at it and the plywood has warped, and delaminated. Three or four areas just popped apart and chunks laying on the ground. Other areas were its showing delamination along the edges.

??

Had a similar experience with the new VOC free 'construction adhesives' - they dont work! (a couple projects just popped apart after gluing).

Also this weekend I tried to buy some stain to give my deck another coat. Couldnt get it - no longer sell oil based stains in my state, and the water based stuff they were selling explicitly states not to use over the prior product (same brand and name, but changed the formula). So now I have to redo my deck??

I know we are eliminating solvents to help the environment. But then I am going to need to be redoing work over again, its consuming MORE resources that harm the environment. Which is worse?

I dont know.... but its a frustrating learning curve to be having materials fail on me.

[joe milana]

But Carl, stockholders are making profits on all those materials you are buying, and that's what our economy is based on these days, eh?

[Mike Henderson]

I understand the problem of applying water based stain over oil based stain. But the water based products I've used have been very good - certainly not inferior to the solvent based products.

I'd take that plywood back and demand my money back. There's absolutely no reason for the outdoor rated plywood to delaminate when it gets wet, no matter what type of glue was used. If it's rated for outdoor (wet environment) then it should hold together - period.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Pressure treated plywood has always been low quality.I've been told its because they treat a finished pc rather than the initial ply material .Tell us more about where and how you want to use it. For the stain I like the solid color one made by Flood , it is a water clean up product that is a combination of water base and oil base.They invented it and for a while leased it to another company. It will not peel.

[Matt Day]

I forsee a closed thread in our future! :)

Now where did I put my lead paint...?

[Carl Beckett]

Ya - maybe it will close. Hence I titled it as somewhat political so the moderators can keep an eye on it.

Having come from the world of alternative energy - many of the 'solutions' are not. IMHO - the biggest way to impact global warming is to reduce consumption - by making inferior products it actually INCREASES consumption. This is true of many many 'green' solutions - when you net it out they arent all that green - actually consuming more resources than they save.

But its a trend that is here and we are going to live with it. It was just a string of items all hitting at once that shows I am needing to get on the learning curve of what works, and right now its costing me (time, money, and wasted material - which is ironic because it is supposed to SAVE resources).

I will check out the Flood products. Peeling has been my #1 gripe with waterbased deck stains - I have never had one that didnt peel. Ever.

Mike - what product would you use to replace the general purpose 'Liquid Nails' traditional adhesive? (I go to the store these days and there are a dozen different types, and so far I havent had a good experience with any of them) - here again is where if I have to stock 6 different flavors to make up for a single one - and each of these have a shelf life - in the long run I end up consuming a LOT more product, which all had a carbon impact to make - VOC or not.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This thread is being closely watched.

Subjects like this can be discussed without being political or uncivil.

[Carl Beckett]

This thread is being closely watched.

Subjects like this can be discussed without being political or uncivil.

In theory, yes.

In practice...... well, we will see. ;)

[Jeff Duncan]

Carl, I'd drive to one of our neighbor states before redoing the deck.....assuming they have it? I'm doing a bit of research as I'm redoing my back steps and the consensus seems to be anything that leaves a film is going to fail! Try googling finish for whatever type of wood your deck has and you'll find there's some good info out there. Made me change the way I was going to do my steps!

good luck,
JeffD

[Carl Beckett]

Exactly Jeff.

Turns out you can order pretty much any product off Amazon.......

I havent received it yet to check the label, but based on product description it will match the prior finish.

This will get me through this round, but eventually it will go the way of the Dodo bird, so I still need to find a solution for future projects.

[John Coloccia]

What does plywood falling apart have to do with global warming?? Either it's good plywood or it's not, doesn't matter if it's held together with mucilage or radioactive waste.

re: your deck
Come down to Connecticut, Carl, and get whatever you want. FWIW, I have a water based finish on my deck and it holds up well for about 2-3 years at a time before I think about refinishing it. Keep in mind that my deck sees harsh conditions because it's in a very shady area. I basically live in the woods and everything is shady.

[mreza Salav]

I have always used water based stains for finishing decks; works fine and I don't find it any worse than the oil based one (with the added benefit of no smell and fast drying).

[Mike Henderson]

Mike - what product would you use to replace the general purpose 'Liquid Nails' traditional adhesive? (I go to the store these days and there are a dozen different types, and so far I havent had a good experience with any of them) - here again is where if I have to stock 6 different flavors to make up for a single one - and each of these have a shelf life - in the long run I end up consuming a LOT more product, which all had a carbon impact to make - VOC or not.
I haven't used water based "liquid nails". Sorry, I can't help there. Most of my experience with water based has been with finishes.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Also this weekend I tried to buy some stain to give my deck another coat. Couldnt get it - no longer sell oil based stains in my state, and the water based stuff they were selling explicitly states not to use over the prior product (same brand and name, but changed the formula). So now I have to redo my deck??

New coat of wood :D

I have seen wood stain finish and stripper 54 from Behr recommended followed by a sanding (no comment on what sanding does to what ever is securing your existing wood).

After that, perhaps you can coat over the top of it.

I have also heard rumours that some oil based products may still be available, but are simply more difficult to find; specifically, TWP 1500 Series and Armstrong Clark Wood Stains. I did not bother trying to verify this, but it is worth looking into.

Now, to keep it political: Ummm, ummmm, ummm, sorry, nothing comes to mind. Except that yeah, it seems like being stuck with something that maybe you cannot refinish kind of is horrible.

[Richard Wagner]

I understand the problem of applying water based stain over oil based stain. But the water based products I've used have been very good - certainly not inferior to the solvent based products.

I'd take that plywood back and demand my money back. There's absolutely no reason for the outdoor rated plywood to delaminate when it gets wet, no matter what type of glue was used. If it's rated for outdoor (wet environment) then it should hold together - period.

Mike

I agree but only after the plywood has been properly prepared for the outdoor environment. Bare wood - NO.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree but only after the plywood has been properly prepared for the outdoor environment. Bare wood - NO.

Plywood rated for outdoor use should have waterproof glue. It's impossible to stop water intrusion using a finish. A finish will only slow moisture diffusing into or out of the wood. If you use plywood that is not rated for outdoor use to make outdoor furniture, for example, it will eventually fall apart no matter how much finish you put on it - unless you put it in a place where it doesn't get rained on, or you live in a very dry climate.

Mike

[Pat Barry]

We all have to give a little for the betterment of mankind.

[Kevin Woodhead]

Thank you Pat. I'll take mine in cash if you please, and thanks for your generous contribution! :-)

[Kevin W Johnson]

We all have to give a little for the betterment of mankind.

I think you missed the point entirely. There is no betterment of mankind if we are simply using more materials, more resources, and more energy making those products if the "new green stuff" fails well before it's time.

[Carl Babel]

Carl,
For the plywood, I suggest that you use either marine plywood or MDO (aka, sign board). Both are made for outdoor use; neither should experience delamination (assuming that you maintain a good finish).
Carl

[Rick Fisher]

There are about 10 different grades of Pressure treated plywood...

If you bought UC1 or UC2 treated plywood, cut it and left it in the rain.. then it probably fell apart.. Its for interior use only ..

I am sure the sales person at the building supply store you bought it from went over this with you to make sure you where getting the right product ? Was he wearing an orange apron by chance ? :)

I am in the business, I can buy cheap crap spruce plywood, send it to a treatment plant and tell them to hit it with 20 lbs of treatment and it will be super cheap..

I can also ship a truck of exterior grade D-Fir sheathing to a plant and have them hit it with 40 lbs of chemical and it will last a bazillion years out in the rain, so long as I treat any cuts with end cut preservative ..

In this business, anyone can buy a truckload of any plywood, ship it to a treatment plant and call it treated plywood. And they are right .. Stores can buy it treated, or buy their own truckload and send it for treatment .. Some US plywood is real crap .. some is pretty good.. They are called the same thing .. ( the good mills charge more .. go figure ) ..

Where did you buy it ?

If you bought it at a borg.. Then I am out of this conversation.. If you bought it at a decent lumberyard, and told them what it was for, then I am disappointed.. Bearing in mind that if it was for wall sheathing .. you should not have bought it ..

When you nail treated plywood to a stud wall, cover it with building paper, and then apply siding .. it does not need to be the same grade they use on a dock .. it doesn't need to cost that much .. A 2x8 treated joist for a deck is not the same quality as a telephone pole.. A 6x6 treated timber for commercial landscaping should be 40 pounds per 100 cubic feet.. A 6x6 treated post to hold up a sundeck can have half the active chemical and be a lower quality timber.

When you buy something that is called " pressure treated " .. it does not mean its for exterior use, it means its been put in a pressure tank and soaked in toxic chemicals. That's it .

Edit..

Sorry if that came off as a rant.. :) .. Imagine working in the lumber-yard business and telling that to a consumer.. They don't believe you .. If you did buy UC3 or UC4 and it fell apart, it will probably be blamed on not treating the cut ends.. Treatment is a surface thing.. the more chem, the more time in the tank, the deeper it goes, but its darn expensive .. The cheap treated ply is about as good as painted ply .. its just done for you already. There is a huge market for the cheap stuff.. but the store needs to tell the consumer what its NOT capable of and how to use it .

[Jim Matthews]

I treat the exposed edges of outdoor plywood with Thompsons water seal (paraffin wax suspension) before assembly.
I tape the seams with Ice and Water membrane. I apply proper drip edges to shed runoff, where possible.

I used Onduline (http://www.onduline.com/onduline_en), an asphalt permeated fiber (could be hemp, for all I know) as the topmost layer.
I still expect the plywood to fail, probably from wicking moisture up from the ground if we ever get snow again.

I don't know of any exposed plywood structures lasting long in my neck of the woods, certainly none more than 25 years old.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have yet to find a green product that is as good or better than the product that it replaces.

It is impossible to make comment on this trend without getting into a political statement, but the crux of the problem is that standards are being applied by people that have absolutely no idea how to actually do anything that is usefull.

I build houses with the idea that they will be restored, not replaced. I expect them baring any catastrophy to still be there in 100 years. It infuriates me to be forced to use products that I know are going to fail simply because of the hypocritical green standard.

I recently ran into an example of the mentality that is behind this. I went to look at a job and the owner, with the manditory Prius in the driveway chided me because I drove in in a large van that uses too much fossil fuel. I explained to her that I do not own a second 6000 sq.ft. home on once pristine lake front with a indoor pool heated all year long so I can use it for a few weekends a year so the amount of fuel that I burn in my van may be of little concequence in the grand sceme of things.

I did not do the job.......

Larry

[Joe Angrisani]

....I explained to her that I do not own a second 6000 sq.ft. home on once pristine lake front with a indoor pool heated all year long so I can use it for a few weekends a year so the amount of fuel that I burn in my van may be of little concequence in the grand sceme of things....

Maybe you should take that new opportunity from the other thread. :)

[Carl Beckett]

There are about 10 different grades of Pressure treated plywood...


Where did you buy it ?



I didnt specify the grade (do know there are different grades. But did specify it was for outdoor use (not siding!!).

It was purchased from my local lumber yard - reputable supplier to many of the builders in this area (not the Borg)

Have never experienced a piece just falling apart due to rain - was surprised at this.

[Jason Roehl]

I have yet to find a green product that is as good or better than the product that it replaces.

It is impossible to make comment on this trend without getting into a political statement, but the crux of the problem is that standards are being applied by people that have absolutely no idea how to actually do anything that is usefull.

I build houses with the idea that they will be restored, not replaced. I expect them baring any catastrophy to still be there in 100 years. It infuriates me to be forced to use products that I know are going to fail simply because of the hypocritical green standard.

I recently ran into an example of the mentality that is behind this. I went to look at a job and the owner, with the manditory Prius in the driveway chided me because I drove in in a large van that uses too much fossil fuel. I explained to her that I do not own a second 6000 sq.ft. home on once pristine lake front with a indoor pool heated all year long so I can use it for a few weekends a year so the amount of fuel that I burn in my van may be of little concequence in the grand sceme of things.

I did not do the job.......

Larry

The sad part about that potential client is that she probably just thinks you're a jerk, and never really considered what you said because she doesn't know how to think for herself and do the math, only react emotionally to information (I run into people all the time--men and women--who think this way). I bet that Prius was a 3rd vehicle for 2 drivers, too.

The reality is that small vehicles just don't get the work done. I used to drive full-size pickups, then a few years ago when gas first hit $4/gallon and my F250 had a tranny problem, I bought an '88 Mazda B2200 instead of fixing the Ford. It got double the mileage around town, but after 3 years of driving it, I was fed up with the lack of cargo space. Now I drive an '03 Ford E250 cargo van with the 4.2L V-6. Back to not-so-great mileage, but I'm much more likely to have everything I need when I need it, and still have some cargo room left over to pick up materials.

At home, I'm a thermostat hawk, and I'm always thinking about/looking at/doing things to save energy and money. I can't believe the garbage I see get built these days. People would rather spend a couple extra thousand on fancy faucets and light fixtures than on quality workmanship that would save them thousands in energy costs over the next 5-10 years. I've even given today's builders a motto, though they have yet to take me up on it: "Building the Slums of Tomorrow, Today."

[Mel Fulks]

A way to get construction grade sheathing plywood to hold up in horizontal use.Use any type two glue to apply cotton duck (light canvas) .Cover edges too.Paint with acrylic exterior floor coating .First coat should be thinned with 25 percent water.Then two full coats unthinned .This method was recommended to me by a paint company technician when I was looking for an alternative deck surface.It was tested by them and by me.I ended up actually using ipe.But I did cover some scaffolding walk boards for the bricklayers and a year later there was no wear .This is not going to take the place of MDO or marine plywood but it is an interesting take on early porch coverings continuing into the 20th century.

[John Coloccia]

I have yet to find a green product that is as good or better than the product that it replaces.

It is impossible to make comment on this trend without getting into a political statement, but the crux of the problem is that standards are being applied by people that have absolutely no idea how to actually do anything that is usefull.

I build houses with the idea that they will be restored, not replaced. I expect them baring any catastrophy to still be there in 100 years. It infuriates me to be forced to use products that I know are going to fail simply because of the hypocritical green standard.

I recently ran into an example of the mentality that is behind this. I went to look at a job and the owner, with the manditory Prius in the driveway chided me because I drove in in a large van that uses too much fossil fuel. I explained to her that I do not own a second 6000 sq.ft. home on once pristine lake front with a indoor pool heated all year long so I can use it for a few weekends a year so the amount of fuel that I burn in my van may be of little concequence in the grand sceme of things.

I did not do the job.......

Larry

Well, I will give a plug for one "green" product that I do think is far and away superior to the older, solvent based product. Timbermate thinned and used for pore filling is almost miraculous. I can now pore fill in one coat, and if I'm in a rush I can hit it with a hair dryer or heat gun and have it sanded back and ready for finish in less than an hour. It used to take me days to pore fill with oil based fillers.

But the list is admittedly pretty short.

[James Baker SD]

can somebody give me a brief tutorial on pressure treating wood and plywood in general? I thought it was a nasty chemical that made wood intended to be buried (like fence posts) somewhat immune to the bacterial attacks they would face from the soil. Does it have additional uses? As for plywood, I thought exterior grade wood used different glues to keep it from delaminating when wet. The surface of the wood was still subject to weather damage and needed protection, but it shouldn't come apart when wet.

[Mike Henderson]

I have yet to find a green product that is as good or better than the product that it replaces.

Larry
There's different criteria for "good or better" in all products. For lacquer, I really like the water borne finishes and find they do an excellent job. They're also not as toxic to me (still somewhat toxic) and they're better for the environment (not as much stuff going into the atmosphere).

So it depends on what you mean by "good or better". Overall, I don't have a lot of problems with moving to low VOC products.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I recently ran into an example of the mentality that is behind this. I went to look at a job and the owner, with the manditory Prius in the driveway chided me because I drove in in a large van that uses too much fossil fuel. I explained to her that I do not own a second 6000 sq.ft. home on once pristine lake front with a indoor pool heated all year long so I can use it for a few weekends a year so the amount of fuel that I burn in my van may be of little concequence in the grand sceme of things.

No no no..... First, you agree completely.... then either ask if you can use their Prius to haul your equipment and load of lumber, or, tell them that you will use a Prius and that you will use more fuel from making multiple trips to haul the materials, and take twice as long, so the job will cost much more to complete, but they should pay you more because you are saving the environment. :-)

Last I checked (some years back), the number one reason for purchasing a Prius was the statement that you made. Not having ever driven one, I cannot comment, but the last I heard was that the current models ride pretty nice.

I am curious about treated lumber. Is it bad the for environment? If so, do we speculate that it will no longer be available? I thought that some of the pressure treated stuff is not as available because it contains bad stuff and children climb on it and chew on it in playgrounds (or something like that).

[Pat Barry]

Kevin, without getting too political, and I do understand the frustration with not being able to get materials and how that causes extra work, it is a very short sided point of view to take, don't you to think? Lots of things have changed with materials, and I suspect most are for the better. The long term view, the one that we need to have to pass a better environment on to our children, is to find new materials that do as good or better a job and are greener (I hate that term by the way). Its unfortunate for us, right now. It probably costs more, but that is the price we pay now.

[Larry Edgerton]

The way I look at it is if I build a house that last twice as long as average, I am using half the materials. Thats green.

Larry

[Carl Beckett]

This is the concept of reducing consumption Larry - and it does have a larger impact than simply shifting the type of consumption (or worse, increasing consumption of some other resource that isnt yet a problem). Human behavior is crazy difficult to regulate on any macro scale.

In the early 80's I bought a bare minimum Toyota Tercel. (4 speed, didnt even have a radio). It costs $5000 new. On the highway it was 42mpg and only slightly less than this in the city. So definitely on par with a Prius - but - 30 years later the Prius costs much more, and consumes much more resource in its making - not the least of which is Lithium, which has a FINITE world supply and is already scheduled to run out. (ya... we will recycle but it still wont be enough)

An update: Amazon cancelled my order for deck stain (didnt say why - my guess is they cant ship to my state). Im not ready to rip it all up and burn it yet.....

[Rich Engelhardt]

An update: Amazon cancelled my order for deck stain (didnt say why - my guess is they cant ship to my state). Im not ready to rip it all up and burn it yet.....
I was going to mention that possiblity earlier in this thread.
I got sidetracked though by having to flush my water saver toilet three times and went on a rage cursing the legacy of Tricky Dick.....:D.

Hey! BTW, I bought the Nissan Sentra twin to your Tercel in 1990.
5 speed, zero optons, 49 MPG the day I bought it and 49MPG the day I traded it in 120K miles later - $5,000.00 tax, title and out the door.
Great little car! I would have put the money into having the main seal replaced on it excpet for the fact the car was black and didn't have A/C.
I drove it on service calls and spent about 30 hours out of every 40 hour work week behind the wheel & the lack of A/C was brutal.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Prius costs much more, and consumes much more resource in its making - not the least of which is Lithium, which has a FINITE world supply and is already scheduled to run out. (ya... we will recycle but it still wont be enough)

An update: Amazon cancelled my order for deck stain (didnt say why - my guess is they cant ship to my state). Im not ready to rip it all up and burn it yet.....

I was told that the Prius uses NiMH primarily because Lithium cells were considered too dangerous (or something like that).

Consumers report recommended against the Hybrid a few years ago for exactly the reasons you state.... The little Celica has about the same gas mileage, costs a bunch less, and was a known entity. I mostly stopped reading consumers reports for reasons not germane to this discussion.

I expect that you will need to find another source for your oil product, or just bite the bullet and switch products.

[Carl Beckett]

I was told that the Prius uses NiMH primarily because Lithium cells were considered too dangerous (or something like that).


You are likely right - the lithium context may have been to other battery technologies (A123 I believe).



I expect that you will need to find another source for your oil product, or just bite the bullet and switch products.

Again - very practical advice. I need to switch at some point...... sighs. To strip and recoat, or to rip and start new.... hard decisions because I just put this deck in a couple years ago! (the emotional hurdle of sunk costs)

[Mike Henderson]

The way I look at it is if I build a house that last twice as long as average, I am using half the materials. Thats green.

Larry
One can use that same philosophy for furniture. Someone can buy furniture from Ikea and it will last 20 years or so, or they can buy a piece of custom made furniture, made from solid wood (not particle board and veneer) and it will last generations. However, most people buy the Ikea furniture. Are they being rational consumers?

I would answer "Yes" for several reasons.

1. The Ikea furniture is within their price range. If they had to buy custom made furniture they couldn't afford it, or couldn't afford more than one piece.
2. They're only interested in having the furniture last 20 years. After 20 years of the kids beating it up and with changes in their decorating taste, they will want to get rid of the furniture and buy new furniture.

I don't know if the same thing applies to houses because I don't necessarily agree that houses constructed with modern materials will only last half as long as houses constructed with older technology materials. If the modern materials and construction techniques allow the house to be built at lower cost, and sold for a lower price, then there's a real advantage in those materials and construction techniques. And if, at the same time, those materials and construction techniques make the house safer (less fire prone, for example) and have less of an impact on the environment, that's even better.

I don't see the world "going downhill". I see improvements and advancements in technology and the materials used in our lives. What's changed is our recognition of the secondary effects of the use of certain materials and their impact on society. For example, we can generate electricity at lower cost with coal, but we pay for it in global warming and pollution, both of which negatively affect people.

Mike

[Dick Holt]

Carl,
I also live in Mass. My house has always had oil based stain on it. I have never had any trouble getting it, but I always go to a PAINT store, not the local borg or lumber yard. You might want to check at a paint store before you give up.

Dick

[Carl Beckett]

Carl,
I also live in Mass. My house has always had oil based stain on it. I have never had any trouble getting it, but I always go to a PAINT store, not the local borg or lumber yard. You might want to check at a paint store before you give up.

Dick

Thats where I was Dick - same paint store I got it from the first time. They said, new regulations - no longer available in MA. (and then Amazon cancelled my order). I havent confirmed 100%, but it is seeming that its no longer available in MA.....

Did a quick google and found this:

The other problem with oil based stains has to do with new environmental laws. Oil based products typically are much more dangerous to the environment and are beginning to be outlawed by the EPA. So far, the following states have outlawed almost all oil based stains: California, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Washington DC, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Virginia.

[Carl Beckett]

It just occurred to me - likely the oil based woodworking finishes will be outlawed next?

[Rich Engelhardt]

It just occurred to me - likely the oil based woodworking finishes will be outlawed next?
What do you mean - next?
They already are in the process of being phased out & this is now the mopping up stage.

This is far from a recent decision on the part of the EPA or the paint industry.
This has been ongoing since 1970 - something. 73 maybe? I forget when Nixon penned the EPA into being...
It was on the EPA agenda (elimination of VOCs) when they were formed.
It took until 1977 until the EPA had written it's policy, but, the intent was there from the beginning.


So - yes - no matter who you are, pro or non pro, where you live, in one of those states or not,,,,oil based anything is well on it's way to oblivion.
Soon oil based anything will be as common as high octane leaded gas... then it will be gone...

[Steve Peterson]

Turns out you can order pretty much any product off Amazon.......


If you live out on the left coast, there is often a disclaimer that specifically forbids shipping to California. You have to get in your car and drive out of state to pick it up. :)

Steve

[Matt Radtke]

Funny story about Priuses (Priui?)

A co-worker bought a little new, 2003 Ford Ranger. Later, he was married and his wife brought a Prius to the marriage. He as just traded in the Ranger as a second child is on the way.

Initial Purchase Price of a Ford Ranger + 8 years of Gas + 8 years of maint. costs is still less than the initial purchase price of the Prius.

I'm just saying.

[George Gyulatyan]

My take on the Priuses is that they're pollution elsewhere vehicles, cost too much and drive like snails! Ugh.

I test drove a Volt and I like it. It's got a nice low end grunt, but to lease one you gotta have a FICO score of 800 or above! My credit ain't bad, but it's not THAT great. I chuckle every time i hear on the radio that the sale on those is slow... I go... well duh!

I have solar panels installed on my roof, and I am producing more electricity than I am using, so in my case the leasing a Volt would make perfect sense. Purchasing an electric or a hybrid doesn't make much of a sense IMO because no one in their right mind would purchase a 7-8 year old electric vehicle, what with the battery life span and all.

Waterbased finishing products... my only beef with them is that they dry too quickly, especially in this heatwave that we're having in Los Angeles. My only option for spraying right now is outdoors, which ain't happening in this heat!

[Larry Edgerton]

Funny story about Priuses (Priui?)

A co-worker bought a little new, 2003 Ford Ranger. Later, he was married and his wife brought a Prius to the marriage. He as just traded in the Ranger as a second child is on the way.

Initial Purchase Price of a Ford Ranger + 8 years of Gas + 8 years of maint. costs is still less than the initial purchase price of the Prius.

I'm just saying.I just bought a new 2011 Ranger extra cab with a 2.3/stick. With an ARE topper on I am getting about 29 average MPG as it is getting broken in, my best 31.6. I paid $15,800. They are known to run 300,000 with no issues, so to my wallet that is the definition of economy. Looks kind of funny with 16 footers strapped to the roof, but I cut my fuel bills in half. Our car is a Mazda 3 that averages around 35 and is fun to drive.

Larry

[Carl Beckett]

I tried a Defy Extreme deck stain.

Very watery stuff (I assume so it penetrates). Nano solids. $50 per gallon.

Did the full on prep and dry.

It doesnt look very good. Nothing to do with the product - perhaps if this went over the top of fresh cedar it would work great (would be nice and uniform and penetrate deep).

Given I had an oil base already in the wood, and a relatively dense/high oil content wood ('mahogany' decking) - its pretty spotty and non uniform and lacks any richness. Overall the transition to water based produce turned a beautiful deck into something that looks pretty dang beat up. A lot of work and expense, and a very unsatisfying result. :(

I wont tear it up and burn it - yet.

[Pat Barry]

It can't penetrate the old oil finish though, and thats the biggest issue. How do you completely remove the old stuff so that new stuff will work? This might be a great question for Scott and the guys on the finishing forum.

[Jason Roehl]

Flood makes a deck stripper product. It's basically just sodium hydroxide at some concentration (a very strong base). I've removed multiple coats of solid color stain with it before. Just don't get it in a cut--DAMHIKT.

http://www.flood.com/wood-care-solutions/products/view-product.do?productId=8&retailer=

[Carl Beckett]

It can't penetrate the old oil finish though, and thats the biggest issue. How do you completely remove the old stuff so that new stuff will work? This might be a great question for Scott and the guys on the finishing forum.

It is worth a question to the finishing forum. I cant be the only person to ever had an oil based deck that needed an updated coat.

Its maddening to get decent data on deck finish. Lots of claims, virtually no data or testing. Every combination is different which makes it difficult to some degree... but to this day, I have found a satisfactory product. I guess I could use IPE or something (which could be MORE unfriendly to the environment)

But I thought I would give the update that the project came out poorly. Not all projects are successes, and we learn by failures more than success (so they say)

You know.... it would be ironic as heck if it sealed great and lasted for years and years now.... would have to look at it each year...... :)

[Jason Roehl]

Bottom line is that opacity and longevity of deck finishes are pretty much proportional. Closer to clear, and the finish won't last long at all. Even the best truly clear finishes would probably only go 2 years under the best of conditions. The worst, 6 months. The best solid-color stains might get you 4-5 years. Keeping the deck clean, particularly in the fall and winter also contributes to longevity--letting leaves (especially wet leaves) and snow sit on the deck will destroy any finish in short order. If the boards are cupped and don't let water drain easily--bye, bye, finish.

That's why I recommended the stripper product above. If I absolutely want to get the most time out of a deck finish, I'll strip the deck, then go over it with an ROS and 80 grit sandpaper to help open up the pores of the wood to receive the new finish.

[Carl Beckett]

I hear you Jason.

The problem I have with the solid color 'stains' is that 1) they have all peeled/flaked on me and look really bad then and 2) the general appearance, to me, looks just like paint (which I dont like)

[Dick Holt]

Carl,
I was at my local hardware store recently.Since you said oil based stains were no longer avalable, I have been concerned since my house has oil based stain on it. The owner said that semi-transparent oil based stain is still available, solid stain in not. He is a Ben Moore dealer.

Dick

[Carl Beckett]

Thanks Dick, I will continue to research

But my understanding it's a VOC compliant threshold. Might be semantics. More to learn