Kitchen Design Critique/Advise Needed

[Matt Meiser]

We're trying to get our kitchen design finalized. I'm aiming to start construction right after Labor Day. LOML and I spent a couple hours last night on the couch in view of the kitchen with Sketchup discussing design details, how we'd use the space, etc. This is where we are at. I'm looking for advise on a number of issues and also input on anything we might not be seeing. There are some constraints on the design though, so no suggestions to completely change the layout. Other than that, please

Constraints

No walls, windows, doors are moving other than one partial wall. Many can't, and any that could would be a budget buster because of electrical and affecting the knockdown texture on the ceiling which means a bunch more work. Right now the only drywall work will be some very minor repairs I can handle myself in a few hours.
Electrical changes are difficult at best due to everything being fed from the attic which has a lot of blow in insulation and therefore are very undesirable. Right now the only electrical changes planned are moving some electrical in the 1/2 wall that's coming out into the cabinets that replace it (plugs will be on the sides of the cabinet.) Again something I can handle in an hour or so.
Sink will not be moving due to its logical placement below the window and not wanting to change any plumbing.
Stove cannot move more than a couple inches side to side due to not wanting to change electrical for the stove/microwave and gas for the stove.


Finishes/Materials

Wood will be red oak.
Finish will be a light color--Sealcoat shellac followed by a WB topcoat with an oil-like tint.
Exact door style TBD, but I do know that the uppers will be arched unlike the square shown.
Counters will be dark granite
Flooring is Armstorng Alterna tile already in place (with extra tile and grout on hand to allow for any moved boxes) as of 2 weeks ago.
Backslash will be complimentary tile.


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First an overhead view of the layout. The angled cabinet in the upper right follows a partial wall.

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View toward the upper right of the layout. Today we have three cabinets similar to the middle one but the drawers are split like the doors. Due to that and center stiles they are very wasteful of space. Other than the wine rack on the side of the upper cabinet, nothing special here.

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Another view of the same set of cabinets from the upper left of the layout. From this side, below the peninsula is a cabinet that replaces an existing partial wall. This cabinet's depth is only 6.5" to create symmetry in the counter shape with the wall on the other side of the curve. We intend to use this very shallow cabinet for storing things like canned goods--should be great for that because nothing will be able to get way in the back. The side is just decorative panels. The curved area is a bar area--this exists today but counter is very angular and doesn't work great. Adding the curve allows it to not stick into an aisle way any further but makes it much more usable.

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A view over the peninsula into the kitchen from the upper right of the layout toward the lower left.

The lower corner cabinet between the stove and sink has the bi-fold door and a 1/2 shelf inside for bulk storage. I did a very similar box for my mom and its proven VERY useful.

The narrow cabinet to the right of that is a spice pullout.

We need the shallow drawers on either side of the stove which pretty much precludes any deep drawers on either side which we wanted--1 more drawer would be much too deep, 2 would probably be too shallow. I think we'll put one of those pot/lid organizers inside one. Looking for ideas here if anyone has any. We might slide the stove one way or the other just a couple inches so the boxes best accommodate the organizer(s.)

Nothing special about the uppers. I'd wanted the one over the microwave to be taller and deeper but the microwave requires a 12" deep cabinet above. I don't think I can make it taller because of the crown--no where to end it like there is on the sides of that corner cabinet. Anyone have a photo of a way to treat this?

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A view looking into the kitchen from the lower left.

The cabinet beyond the fridge has a pantry on the bottom 6'. Right now the fridge is tight against that wall and that means the doors open into the wall. Rather than add 3-4" of dead space there (and still have the door hit, just at a bigger angle) we came up with the idea of the cabinet. We loose a little counter, but not bad. TBD whether this will be a door with individual roll-out trays or one of those where the whole unit pulls out as one. Looking for advise there. The fridge will be a counter-depth unit.

The space above the pantry will have dividers for storing baking trays (we don't bake a lot.)

The space between the fridge and dishwasher will be where my filler strip for this wall goes. I need at least a small filler there to support the end of the counter.

Also looking for advise on treating the side panel of the fridge where the counter meets. Its GOING to get wet that close to the sink and dishwasher. Trying to decide whether we should tile it, have the granite fabricators make a side splash, or if maybe just a heavy bead of clear caulk would be enough to protect it?

Another thing I'm looking at that's visible in this picture. I'm trying to decide whether to do raised panels on the sides of the cabinets or just a flat panel. The one over the sink has a flat panel, the one close has the raised panel. I'm wondering if all the extra raised panels are too much or not? And the side of the fridge will be flat due to the odd shape of the visible area so it will be flat either way. And going back to the 3rd pic, if I don't do raised panels on the ends of the uppers, should I do them on the end of the peninsula or leave it flat?

[Sam Layton]

Hi Matt,

I like your design. I have a few ideas on your concerns. On the upper cabinets I like more than 12". Your microwave calls for a 12" cabinet. I might consider shimming out the microwave 1" or so, so you could have a 13" deep cabinet, or what ever depth you want. It would be easy to shim out the microwave.

On the lower cabinets, my wife and I like all drawers, a personal decision.

On your counter tops that meet wood sides. I had the same concern. I had granite installed. Then I installed travertine on the back splash. On the side of the oven cabinet, I just installed the travertine a few rows high. To cover the rough edge of the travertine I used the granite pencil liners. We have a pass through to the living room. I did not want the travertine to go along the pass through. So I just used the granite pencil liners. I like the end results. Now we can clean the counter top without touching wood.

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239063As far as your end cabinets, I don't like plywood showing. I like all end panels. Around your frig you could construct your face frame around your cabinets, and make smaller raised panels. I used shaker style flat panels on our kitchen. The only plywood showing is on the inside of the cabinets.

Also, for under counter lighting I used LED lighting. The thing I like about the LED lights, they are cool. No worry about overheating.

Sam

[Patrick McCarthy]

Matt, I can't see it from my place, but . . . .

Why the varying elevations on the uppers? In particular, the small shelf unit and the cabinet over the dishwasher seem to diminish the overall aesthetic; they seem like they are "added on" more or less as an afterthought. I assume the design intent was to have matching cabinets "balancing" each other on either side of the sink, but . . . . .

I think it would look "cleaner" if all the uppers were at the higher elevation but, again, some say my taste is only in my mouth. just a thought.

wish you luck with the project. Patirck

[Matt Meiser]

Sam: Do you have any pictures of the drawers around your stove area? I'd like to do more drawers there, but I'm thinking the need for the shallow top drawers preclude that.

Patrick: The shorter ones are actually standard 30" height and the taller are 36" and also an extra couple inches deeper. Its a style that we've seen in showrooms and like. Whether or not my interpretation works--that's something I'm looking for input on ;)

The cabinets on either side of the sink don't balance because the spacing of everything doesn't let them be equal size. An earlier incarnation they were, before we moved the refrigerator over and added the pantry. I also had a RP valence over the sink at one point but that's been scratched due to a couple design issues.

[Bruce Page]

Are you going with a cabinet depth fridge (less room AND more expensive) or a standard depth? Your model pics indicate a cabinet depth fridge.

Your fridge/cabinet section looks very similar to what we did. In our case we were very happy with the remodel until the refrigerator was installed and stuck out good five or six inches from the surrounding cabinets - as you can see in the pic. LOML was not happy. I had to have the contractor come back and install a wider partition and bump out the cabinets surrounding the fridge.

I fault the cabinet supplier for not warning us of this when we were ordering the cabinets. It took another 3 weeks and $700 to order the new partition and bump out the cabinets.

As far as the backsplash, I had the countertop supplier install a 4” matching backsplash all the way around.

[Matt Meiser]

Yes, we do plan to go with a cabinet depth fridge. We found by going side-by-side cabinet depth it isn't as bad as the french door cabinet depth which was our first choice.

How do those drawers work for you around the stove?

[Bruce Page]

Yes, we do plan to go with a cabinet depth fridge. We found by going side-by-side cabinet depth it isn't as bad as the french door cabinet depth which was our first choice.

How do those drawers work for you around the stove?

The drawers were a LOML requirement that worked out better than I thought they would. We are able to store most of the pots & pans in them and the corner cabinet to the left has two large lazy Susan’s to store the bigger things.

[Matt Meiser]

Cool--those are pretty much what I envisioned was about all that could be done with the requirement of the shallow drawer on top and I was thinking they wouldn't work for pots and pans.

[Sam Layton]

Matt,

I still have to build the drawers, and door fronts. On the soon to be done list. However, you get the idea. All of the top drawers in the entire kitchen are the same size, I think something like 5" or 5 1/2". The drawers on both side of the stove are for pots and pans. The different size drawers meets my wifes needs. With three drawers, there is plenty of room for large drawers.

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[fRED mCnEILL]

I won't comment on your drawings because I have trouble with visualizations. However, I will tell you how we went about our kitchen reno and reference your constraints list.
We had a small kitchen that was cut off from a family room by a wall that extended 1/2 way across the room. This was not a load bearing wall. On the other side of the kitchen was a dining room(that we NEVER use) separated by a load bearing wall.

When deciding how we wanted to make changes we looked at how we used the exisitng kitchen. My wife likes to cook AND likes to visit so it became a natural that expansion of the kitchen was a priority. The kitchen is the focal point of our house and when we have company the visiting mostly takes place in the kitchen at a big island.The reno was 8 years ago and my wife STILL raves about how much she loves her new kitchen but in retrospect we should have not only expanded into the family room but should have also removed the load bearing wall to expand the other way as well. But, unfortunately, we never even explored what it would have taken to do that. It was one of our constraints. And I look at some of your constraints and wonder if you are limiting yourself in that regard. To me moving some electrical or plumbing was easy. You may not have that capability. I guess what I am saying is LOOK AT HOW YOU REALLY WANT TO CHANGE YOUR KITCHEN as opposed to just putting in new cabinets.
After we decided HOW we wanted to change it we went to every show home, lottery winner open house, Street of Dream homes, renovated homes that we could. In reference to someone who said they had all lower cabinets with drawers,the very first renovated home open house we went to had ALL lower drawers. When my wife asked the home owner how she liked all drawers the response was this. "Honey, I'm too old to be down on my hands and knees looking in the back of a cabinet for something". I also spent a lot of time on Garden Web Forums where I discovered toe kick drawers, dishwasher drawers, why a 30 " countertop is desirable, why an induction cooktop is desirable and a host of other innovations.

Good luck

[Steve Griffin]

Looks nice Matt!

I just have time for a quick look this morning, but a couple things stand out to me--

-I think it would look about 4 times better with INSET doors.
-Frame and panel the sides of the fridge and uppers. I don't worry about counter to wood on the sides of fridges. Finish the wood well and caulk it, and the rare big spill will not be a problem.
-Are you sure you want to be kicking those phony legs either side of the sink?
-Not sure I understand the peninsula--you can't sit at this at all? Or just at the curved part?
-Bifold doors and corner storage--I'd leave the corner completely empty, ditch the two bifolds and instead put in a wider drawer bank right of stove. Left of sink would then have a nice wide top drawer and a bottom pair of doors for large item storage.
-Over all I think the layout is excellent, with very nice work flow, storage and counters.

[Matt Meiser]

There would only be seating at the curved part. The straight part borders on the aisle way around the kitchen table from the garage entry door so its high-traffic. Today its a 1/2 wall. 4 years ago it was a full wall and the seating area shown was a counter-to-ceiling pass-through which really split up the kitchen/dining/family room area. We took out the top 1/2 of the wall changed all the related electrical (There was a LOT!) and repaired the ceiling. Pulling the wall out and just having counter will open the space even more because you'll be able to stand around the penninsula and see into the kitchen from the dining table.

The legs are one of the maybe's. In reviewing last night it creates a funny corner there with the sink sticking out. That may go away and switch to a standard depth sink base.

I don't have a picture, but I changed the boxes either side of the stove to be like Bruce's. We measured our biggest pots and they'll fit in drawers like that nicely.

Regarding the side splash. One think I'm thinking about is asking the granite people to fabricate but not install the side splash. We can hide it above a cabinet and if we ever decide that panel is looking worse for the wear, I can install it in a few minutes.

[Joseph Tarantino]

matt....have you considered the size of your work triangle? the stove, fridge and sink should form a triangle and there are commonly used measurements about how close or far apart they should be. is there any reason all the appliances are on the same wall? if not, what would prevent moving the fridge to the opposite wall in place of the cabinet with the draws and it's mating upper? this would, i believe, provide a more symetrical work triangle eliminating the long leg between the fridge and the stove. it would also eliminate having the DW immediately adjacent to the firidge. while this may be convenient for an icemaker hook up, most of the high end kitchens (>$80K) i've been in here in NY don't ususally have 2 appliances next to each other (DW and fridge). any reason for not going with 30" uppers and filling in 6" between the tops of the cabinets and ceiling with perhaps a grander crown molding? are those legs on sink base? if yes, have you considered bumping it out ~2". it really makes the sink standout. and like you, i have dark granite counters. just be ready to be endlessly wiping up water spots. best of luck with this challenging project.

[Matt Meiser]

Joseph, that orange wall would present the same problem as the current (pre-remodel) fridge location right next to a wall. There's not really room to put anything between the fridge and that wall. It is definitely an idea we considered.

I'm hoping to stay WAY under 80K! :D

[Ben Hatcher]

If this were my kitchen, I'd try to make sure that the pots/pans fit into a max of 3 drawers so that one of the cabinets next to the stove, probably the one on the right, could be made to have 3 small drawers and 1 larger one so that I could store my cooking utensils and towels close to the stove. (I don't like things on my counters).

I'm not a fan of the wine rack as designed. Have you thought of turning it towards the bar, making it the same height as the other uppers on that wall, and making a panel for the side that would look like a 3rd door?

No raised panels under the bar?

As for the counter/fridge part, see if your granite contractor can slice that sidesplash piece thinner than the others, like maybe 1/2". It might look less obtrusive should you need to use it.

[Matt Meiser]

Under the bar will have have beadboard wainscot. Basically the same thing I did in the laundry room but in oak and with beadboard panels. Yeah its different from the cabinets but its something we saw and liked. I also think there are less "rough on the knees" edges.

I was waiting to detail that out until we found out what kind of support the counter would need there. I talked to the counter guy while he was out templating my laundry and he suggested 3/8" steel plate lagged into the top of the wall under the bar--an idea I like because you won't hit your knees.

[Matt Meiser]

Here's a revised view that catches most of the changes I've mentioned above.

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[Steve Griffin]

The framed wainscoting is a big improvement.

It would maybe even look nicer if the paneling followed the arc of the top. I've done arcs before barrel style with 3" vertical slats.

Another idea to clean it up a little would be to get rid of the doors and run the panel detail all the way across. If you made the drawers deeper on the other side, you may even gain storage....

Don't rule out other trim options for the tops of the cabinets, unless you really love crown molding. I personally can't stand crown molding, and find more and more customers don't like it either. A simple flat vertical 1-2" tall, or a bullnose or both can look nice.

Did I mention inset doors yet;);)

Just throwing out ideas...don't feel obligated to respond to them.

[Matt Meiser]

Steve, do you have any examples of other trim options? Frankly installing the crown scares the heck out of me but I do like the look when its done right.

[Carl Beckett]

This thread belongs in the cabinet makers forum.......

:D

[Joseph Tarantino]

Joseph, that orange wall would present the same problem as the current (pre-remodel) fridge location right next to a wall. There's not really room to put anything between the fridge and that wall. It is definitely an idea we considered.

I'm hoping to stay WAY under 80K! :D

just curious as to what the reasoning would be for wanting to put cabinetry next to the orange wall if a fridge were placed there? couldn't the fridge have an enclosure to it's left and above (a panel and a cabinet) with the wall to it's right? i can understand not wanting to do it that way if that's not your personal taste, just wondering if there's something about that wall that i don;t see like you do.

i know 2 kitchen designers that have worked on some pretty expensive remodels that look great. if you have a mesaured floor plan, i could see if they have any ideas for maximizing it
's utility. just a thought.

and do you have the appliances already? if not, i would humbly suggest a slide in range. i have a unit like yours and wish i had ponied up the additional funds for a slide in as it results in a much cleaner, more custom built look since it doesn't interupt the backsplash.

[Matt Meiser]

The wall next to the fridge presents a problem in that the door hits the wall and prevents opening the door past 90 degrees. The more space you add, the further the door can open, but if you've only got a 2" filler, its not much past 90 degrees.

I have a sketchup drawing of the whole thing if the people you know can work with that?

[Jeff Monson]

and do you have the appliances already? if not, i would humbly suggest a slide in range. i have a unit like yours and wish i had ponied up the additional funds for a slide in as it results in a much cleaner, more custom built look since it doesn't interupt the backsplash.

I'd 2nd that suggestion, I have done 2 kitchens with slide in ranges. Much more of a custom look. My suggestion is to get one without knobs though, we have an Electrolux slide in at our current house, it looks great, works great and is super easy to clean with no knobs.

[Steve Griffin]

Steve, do you have any examples of other trim options? Frankly installing the crown scares the heck out of me but I do like the look when its done right.


Hi Matt,
IF you like crown, then do it! It's nothing you can't figure out. (Make sure you have plenty to work with though...)

Don't take this wrong, on a style level there is nothing about this kitchen that looks particularly custom. It looks like you are striving to do an exact copy of a big box store display. Though in something to make it special: curved bar panel, or inset doors with real butt hinges, or deep counters, or a painted freestanding furniture like sink cabinet, or uppers with a drawer on the bottom or mission style pegs.

If you're going to take all the trouble and time to build something by hand, it might as well look like it was built by hand. Here's just one example of a cabinet which I used 3 design elements to make it look custom. It has arched bottom rails, unique drawer placement and exposed dovetailed face frame.

Think about your needs and get creative. Look at furniture books and try to grab an element or two you like.

[Joseph Tarantino]

The wall next to the fridge presents a problem in that the door hits the wall and prevents opening the door past 90 degrees. The more space you add, the further the door can open, but if you've only got a 2" filler, its not much past 90 degrees.

I have a sketchup drawing of the whole thing if the people you know can work with that?

i'm not checked out on sketchup. if you were to email it to me, what's needed to open it? and would it contain the site's dimensions? any chance that software can produce a measured floorplan that could be emailed? if there's a way to produce something with dimensions that does not involve my learning sketchup right now, i'd be happy to have them take a look at the plan.

i

[Matt Meiser]

And we have a final design, door profiles are chosen, all the finishes are selected, lighting, selected, appliances selected, etc. Hoping to build cutlists and triple check my door and door dimensions and place a couple expensive orders by this time next week. Maybe even start cutting some lumber. http://semiww.org/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

Thanks to everyone for the comments--I purposely tried not to respond to anything but questions in this and another thread posted elsewhere so that I wouldn't direct the discussion. We did consider all of the comments made and tried a number of things in the model that haven't been posted.
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