Buying a SawStop tablesaw

[Jim C Martin]

Hello all:
After spending yesterday in the ER, I will be buying a SawStop tablesaw first thing Monday morning. I have always used old American made machinery, that I purchased used and restored myself. This will be the first time I have walked into a showroom and bought a new Taiwanese machine.
First question for those of you who own a SawStop: do you recommend the Industrial or the Professional line? This will be the last table saw I ever buy so the additional cost doesn’t bother me too much if it’s worth it. I don’t see many differences in spec except the industrial line is considerably heavier.
Second, more general question: can you recommend strategies for getting the best price on a new SawStop or any new machine? There are three shops in my area that carry them. Is buying a new tablesaw like buying a car with lots of dickering? Do I work one dealer against the other to get to the lowest price? Or do you simply pay the asking (or sale) price?

Thanks,
Jim

[Victor Robinson]

Hello all:
After spending yesterday in the ER, I will be buying a SawStop tablesaw first thing Monday morning. I have always used old American made machinery, that I purchased used and restored myself. This will be the first time I have walked into a showroom and bought a new Taiwanese machine.
First question for those of you who own a SawStop: do you recommend the Industrial or the Professional line? This will be the last table saw I ever buy so the additional cost doesn’t bother me too much if it’s worth it. I don’t see many differences in spec except the industrial line is considerably heavier.
Second, more general question: can you recommend strategies for getting the best price on a new SawStop or any new machine? There are three shops in my area that carry them. Is buying a new tablesaw like buying a car with lots of dickering? Do I work one dealer against the other to get to the lowest price? Or do you simply pay the asking (or sale) price?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim, sorry to hear about your injury. I hope you recover soon and get back into the shop.

As far as SS, I have a PCS and have never felt like I needed more than 3hp. I wouldn't have been able to afford the ICS at the time anyways, but my understanding is that aside from general beefiness, one of the advantages of the ICS is the larger table size. The majority of this largeness is behind the blade, not in front, and somewhat moot if you have an outfeed table. There was a recent thread on a ICS vs. PCS decision with lots of good opinions.

As far as pricing goes, Sawstop has a fixed pricing policy for its dealers, so you will pay the same price everywhere for all Sawstop saws and accessories. Your dealer may be willing to throw in freebies (like delivery or a free blade or something if you've done a lot of business with them) but it's unlikely. Basically no dickering.

[Mike Henderson]

Sorry about your injury. I bought a SawStop because I was afraid I'd make a similar mistake.

I have the Professional and it's fine for me. If you're not in the woodworking business, I think that's all you'll need. SawStop has the same price everywhere but you might be able to get something like free shipping. As far as I know, the SawStop is selling well so it may be tough to get too many "freebies" out of a sale.

But no matter what you wind up paying, think of the price as a one time insurance payment against cutting off your finger. No matter how long you own the saw, you won't have to make another insurance payment.

Even without the finger saving technology, the saw is a good saw.

Mike

[joe milana]

I'd ask a dealer. Ask where the difference in weight is. If he knows, and can specify where the additional weight is, ie. larger heavier table, beefier trunion, heavier motor, more mass here or there, etc. then you can make an informed decision. If he can't answer your questions, move on.

[Paul McGaha]

Jim,

Very sorry to hear of your injury. Hope you heal well.

As for buying a new Sawstop, I don't think their will be any haggling at all. The vendors won't move off the advertised price. I would expect all 3 vendors will have the saws priced the same.

Good luck with the purchase, From all reports the Sawstops are really nice table saws, Just sorry that you're buying under these circumstances.

PHM

[mreza Salav]

sorry about your accident and hope you heal quickly.

As pointed out by others, prices are the same at all dealers and there is no room for price negotiations, they might offer you other incentives (free things along).
As for ICS vs. PCS: I have an ICS and am quite happy with it; it was a demo (used) model I bought slightly less than the price of a PCS. If I wanted to buy new I'd buy a PCS unless you want to have a 5HP.
The ICS comes with bigger table and heavier guts but PCS should be fine for a serious user. Unless you are running your say 8 hours a day 6 days a week or you expect to fire your brake multiple times I'd think a PCS is enough.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Sorry to hear about your accident. I bought the PCS after I ran my top of my finger through a dado blade....Doing something I did 100 times before with out a problem . This was the second time I was injured using a table saw. Fortunately just stitches & didn't loose a finger. What ever one you decide on you'll get a great saw.....

[Mark Ashmeade]

To echo what others have said, firstly, sorry that you made the decision to buy AFTER the accident. Hopefully you're buying an insurance policy that ensures the next accident will be just stitches too.

Dealers can NOT discount at all. On the ICS, I believe there is a $400 shipping charge, on the PCS, at least from my dealer, there was none. I thought I'd play the dealers off against each other on the accessories, a couple of Forrest WW2s, a template for my P-C dovetail jig etc, and try and get them either free or reduced. That didn't work out so well, and I ended up buying the peripheral items from Amazon; they were much cheaper.

The PCS looks tiny when you get the cabinet out of the box (if you are used to say a 66 or Unisaw), but by the time you get the wings, extension table, rails and dust door on it, it doesn't seem so.

On the "Taiwanese" thing. I look at it like this: The saw is American designed, and the company is American owned. The machine is produced in Taiwan because it is cheaper to do so (which also means I can afford one). The quality is specified by Sawstop (ie an American company) and the Taiwanese factory builds to that spec. You will not find fault with the quality of this saw. On the other side of the coin is the Unisaw. This saw is made in the USA, but Delta is owned by a Chinese company. If you were to buy a Unisaw, your money builds the profits of a Chinese company, but the production dollars stay in the US. If you buy a Sawstop, the production dollars are in Taiwan, and the company's profit stays in the US. If you buy a Powermatic, the production dollars go to China or Taiwan, and the profit to Switzerland. Either way, the Sawstop won't cut your fingers off, others may.

[mreza Salav]

I forgot to add this:
Their machines are very well designed and their customer service is second to NONE (and there are excellent ones like LV).
Each time you call you are answered quickly and very professionally, their service people are very very knowledgeable and if there is anything wrong they will take care of you (I have had a small issue that wasn't really a big deal and it was taken care of out of warranty way beyond I would have thought in slightest in my dreams, including sending free parts to upgrade the saw to the new version!).
Can't say enough good about their customer service.

[Jim C Martin]

Thanks Victor, and thanks all of you who have responded. As several of you have said the prices are evidently non negligible. I phoned the local Woodcraft store and they said $3100 + $225 shipping for the industrial without fence and $2300 + $175 for the professional with fence. That sounds like a pretty good shipping rate.
Without having put hands on them it seems like the professional might be the way to go. I may drive down in a bit to get a look.
EDIT: $2300 was for the 1.75hp with 30" fence. Price jumps to $2900 for 3hp with 36" fence! What's up with that? Specs indicate that the 3hp is 18lbs heavier which is probably all in the motor. No way a 3hp motor costs $600 more than a 1.75hp. Are there other differences?
Could you please direct me to the specific PCS versus ICS thread you mentioned?
Cheers,
Jim
P. S. All of this has been dictated using the software in Microsoft office then pasted here. Pretty cool. Much better than one-handed typing!

[Prashun Patel]

There is no dickering, but dealers are now allowed to ship and are not confined to geographies. This means games can be played with taxes and shipping costs. The base price of the saw will not however change.

I have the pcs and feel its plenty strong.

Get an extra brake and beware dados require a change of brake as well as a change of blade.

[johnny means]

I've had an ICS For several years now and am very happy with it. If cost was an issue I'd say the PCS is plenty. But if cost were not a big deal I'd recommend the ICS. You'll never regret more horse power and heavier machines generally do perform better in more demanding situations. I definitely notice a difference between the three horse Uni at my job and my five house SS when ripping thicker material.

[Tim Janssen]

I bought the PCS a little over 2 years ago and I am very happy with it and by the way, I have never, ever, received such well documented instructions for assembly and use as with this saw.
Last year I bought the Grizzly slider and installed it.
I have pictures documenting the assembly of the saw if you are interested I could probably figure out a way to post it here.
Anyway, I'm sure you would be quite happy with the saw.

Tim

[marty shultz]

I bought a 4 yr old ICS that had never been plugged in. It had a 3 phase, 5 hp motor. I don't have 3 ph power available to me. I called sawstop and the sent me a 3 hp single phase for something like $325 and it used the same controls. They are great to work with and their spare parts are very reasonable.

I dont think the advantages od the ICS are worth the money. In fact, I may prefer a slightly smaller table like the pcs.

[Victor Robinson]

Thanks Victor, and thanks all of you who have responded. As several of you have said the prices are evidently non negligible. I phoned the local Woodcraft store and they said $3100 + $225 shipping for the industrial without fence and $2300 + $175 for the professional with fence. That sounds like a pretty good shipping rate.
Without having put hands on them it seems like the professional might be the way to go. I may drive down in a bit to get a look.
EDIT: $2300 was for the 1.75hp with 30" fence. Price jumps to $2900 for 3hp with 36" fence! What's up with that? Specs indicate that the 3hp is 18lbs heavier which is probably all in the motor. No way a 3hp motor costs $600 more than a 1.75hp. Are there other differences?
Could you please direct me to the specific PCS versus ICS thread you mentioned?
Cheers,
Jim
P. S. All of this has been dictated using the software in Microsoft office then pasted here. Pretty cool. Much better than one-handed typing!

Jim,

Here are two threads related to PCS vs. ICS decisions:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?189626-Sawstop-Which-Version-Industrial-or-Professional
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181529-Sawstop-opinion-needed

With regards to the price difference between the 1.75HP and 3HP PCS, it is the difference in the motor and the difference between the basic and T-glide fence. The T-glide fence is a better fence. If you plan on replacing your fence with an aftermarket fence, such as an Incra positioner, then the fence isn't a consideration.

However, in my opinion, if this was my last saw, 3HP would be the target power. It's not that 1.75HP is underpowered - in fact, it would do just fine for most tasks. However, I don't think you want to be limited on your intended "last saw" and if you're shelling out over $2.5k anyways, might as well be good enough to rip 8/4 white oak all day everyday if you felt like doing that. So just my opinion, the price difference between the 1.75hp and 3hp PCS is worth the extra power and better fence - those are differences you would actually feel in everyday usage. The differences between the 3hp PCS and the ICS may not be tangible in everyday use aside from simply knowing you got the beefier machine.

Unless budget is the overriding concern, the 3HP PCS is the sweet spot for a hobbyist in my opinion. It's probably worth pointing out that the 1.75hp PCS was introduced later, when Sawstop realized that there was a market for folks who didn't want to/couldn't shell out $3k for the original 3hp PCS, didn't have 220V available, but also didn't want to pay $2k for a contractor model.

[Gary Pennington]

Just bought a 3hp PCS about a month ago. I think other than the hp difference between the 1.75 and 3 hp PCS is ths 3 hp comes with the dust collection blade guard, the 1.75 does not. The DC blade guard works very well to collect dust but does capture small cutoffs necessitating shutting down the saw to remove the drop if you're doing multiple cuts.
I bought the Integrated Mobile Base which works pretty well but is an additional $199 to "integrate". I don't move my saw a lot so if I had it to do over again I'd get a nice Delta or Shop Fox base for around $100.
I also bought mine without a fence and installed my Incra. I haven't needed CS at all, everything worked right out of the box, the manual is the cat's meow.

Gary

[Chris Hedges]

Unless things have changed, the ICS has several more safety features than the PCS. The two I can remember of the top of my head - ICS has more lockout switches (motor cover) and it also has blade height limiter. It is a substantially bigger saw as well. Check with your dealer, depending on which state you are in, the drop ship fee for the ICS may be waived. In Tenn, it $400 flat. No additional drop ship...

Chris

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I purchased the smaller version..... I was concerned about space and weight (since I had to move it to the basement).

[Brad Gobble]

I've had an ICS for about 4 years, found it on craigslist for 48 cents on the dollar. When looking at the PCS I am sure you'd be delighted by its performance. However, with price not a driving factor I'd go ICS and GET THEIR MOBILE BASE. Damn thing works like butter - mine didn't have it, struggled with some other base for 3 years, manned up an bought the SS base - wow.

Their dust guard is supposed to be great (I have a shark guard tied into a 4" port to my clearvue cyclone) and the only thing I am not impressed with is their extension table (the wooden one). It should have been Phenoilc.

Remember to have appropriate riving knives for the thickness of your blades (the factory one is NOT for thin kerf blades)

Buy a spare brake or two

If you use full kerf blades then a brake incident probably won't ruin your blade, may just need repair (I use Matsushita)

[Kyle Iwamoto]

+1 on the mobile base. I have the 5 hp ICS. Got it before the PCS was out. As mentioned, if money is not a problem get the ICS, and may as well spring the couple hunderd extra for the 5 hp. Yeah, I don't NEED the 5hp, but if you do, it would be too late to say, I should have got the 5 hp. If you use the saw day in day out all day, the 5 hp ICS would be worth it.

[michael case]

Glad your OK. I got my SS from the ER too. I lived in a two family home and my tenant was the chief resident at a local hospital. A piece back walked my hand into a dado blade. My tenant who was a sweetheart got me to the er and cut lot of red tape for me. When my wife showed up she said I could get that "new saw I had been talkin about". Anyway they only had the ICS back then, so that's what I got. If its not a financial strain, and its going to be your last saw, then the ICS would be my choice. Its got a 30" table and a totally rigid fence. Mine replaced a Powermatic 66 and it made the 66 look like junk. Get well and enjoy the new saw.

[Jim C Martin]

Hi Joe:
None of the dealers I spoke to knew any details at all. Not surprising I guess as they are really just retail salesmen.
Yesterday I spoke to tech support at Sawstop. The man I spoke with explained that some of the difference in mass between the pro and industrial is in the saw carriage. On the pro it is made up of welded steel whereas the industrial uses cast iron. Using steel makes perfect sense from an engineering perspective because it is two and a half times as stiff as cast iron. Not a traditional way to do it but sound engineering. I’m going to have a close look at the innards of both models before I make up my mind.
Cheers,
Jim


I'd ask a dealer. Ask where the difference in weight is. If he knows, and can specify where the additional weight is, ie. larger heavier table, beefier trunion, heavier motor, more mass here or there, etc. then you can make an informed decision. If he can't answer your questions, move on.