Hurricane Laser for production environment?

[Edward Forer]

Hi,

I own a large format print/sign shop. We currently have a Multicam cnc router that does all of our complex cutting work. We do a lot with acrylic letters and while the Multicam is okay for this, we generally find that the interior corner radi, cut time and finish quality of the edges are all less than ideal.

I am very seriously considering buying a laser. Based on my cursory research, a Chinese laser supported by a US distributor seems like a good option. We are looking to cut exclusively 1/4" acrylic. So my initial thought was a 90w model should be perfect.

I am going to place a call in to Hurricane lasers today. The only things I've read from actual customers seem favorable, although there seems to be a lot of muck raking going on relating to the company. I don't know or care how much of that is true, what I am interested in is actual owners or potential customers and their experiences in dealing with the company. Any opinions and experiences would be welcome. Conversely, other vendors people have had good experiences with would be beneficial.

My budget is $15k and I'd like to be able to cut quarter sheets (2'x4') of 1/4" acrylic all day long.

-Ed
BlueSkyGroup

[Mike Null]

If you want to cut all day long I wouldn't be looking at a Chinese laser. Trotec, ULS and Epilog all offer better options with better tech support and tubes that will give you the kind of service you seem to be looking for.

If one were able to do a down time/replacement parts analysis of Chinese built vs these three brands my bet is that these brands are more economical.

That opinion comes from years of reading posts on this and other forums plus my experience with these brands.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Mike has a point with going with a US company as far as reliability and ease of use and most of all service. I do doubt the cost breakdown is even remotely close. I believe a CO2 laser from the three brands mentioned above would be around $35-40,000 and I don't see how the Chinese machine will cost you an extra $20-25,000 over it's life.

In the end, I suggest you talk to customers of theirs and people who own Gweike lasers. They will be the best guide for you. I'd also really quiz Hurricane to see if it's worth paying them an extra $3000+ to import the machine in for you.

Here is a link to someone who imported a 150W GWeike Laser to cut acrylic. It would probably be wise to read this and also contact the individual to see how things are going 6 months later. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/laser_engraving_cutting_machines/143152-150w_lc1512_g_weike_-.html

[Rodne Gold]

I use western and Chinese lasers in a very busy and very dirty production environment in a field similar to yours and they both work well - had my Chinese ones for over a year with no issues , true workhorses , my 1200 x 800 80w cuts all day -- 8-10 hrs...
Look on the boards , there is a huge amount of discussion on all this....

[Alexa Ristow]

I agree with Rodney....

My Rabbit laser is now over 4 years old. averaging 200hrs per month usage. getting way over 2000 hours per tube and have not repaced any components. We cut MDF generally and thus have a very dirty machine. The rails gum up from the released oils but have still had no issues with belts, motors or motor drivers. Jump onto
www dot aliexpress (http://www.aliexpress) dot com and you can find replacement parts for every element of the generic chinese models. Shipping time to the USA is 2 to 3 days vias UPS. If you do what Rodney did and buy a decent set of spares up front and then replace on usage, then you are unlikely to experience any significany downtime.
Working in a signage shop , you should have enough technical savvy to set up and maintain the machine on your own. Sawmill creek was enough help for me when I was on my initial learning curve. I am not knocking the US machines and would love to have the exras I read about but South African pricing for the US brands can easily be triple the Chinese equivalent and this can be the difference between make or break for a small business concern.

[Mike Null]

I believe the pricing would be in the $20 to $30,000 range for the brands I mentioned.

Rodney has a unique situation with several machines, a staff to work on them and replacement parts for two or more machines.

[Scott Shepherd]

Why did you buy a Multicam router, not a Chinese one? Do you own Chinese printers, or do you have name brand, higher end printers? So why do you think a laser deserves less consideration when selecting it?

I'll put my Trotec up against ANY Chinese laser out there in a production environment. I'll out produce you hour after hour, day after day, week after week. Outproducing means more profit. What someone would select a machine that will make them less profit is beyond me, when they don't do that in any other aspect of their business.

Yes, you can look on these boards. You know what you'll see over and over and over? "I'm fiddling with my laser to make it right, can someone help". I don't have time to "fiddle" with my laser. If you do, more power to you.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Why did you buy a Multicam router, not a Chinese one? Do you own Chinese printers, or do you have name brand, higher end printers? So why do you think a laser deserves less consideration when selecting it?

I'll put my Trotec up against ANY Chinese laser out there in a production environment. I'll out produce you hour after hour, day after day, week after week. Outproducing means more profit. What someone would select a machine that will make them less profit is beyond me, when they don't do that in any other aspect of their business.

Yes, you can look on these boards. You know what you'll see over and over and over? "I'm fiddling with my laser to make it right, can someone help". I don't have time to "fiddle" with my laser. If you do, more power to you.

Well that's not true at all. You have to have the work to fill the potential. If finding good clients was easy, we'd all be rich. Also if we're talking in theory, well theoretically you could buy 2-3 Chinese machines for the price of 1 Trotec and I highly doubt that the single Trotec can out produce the one Chinese machine. Lastly, if you don't have the money to buy the Trotec but you have the money to buy the Chinese machine, which one is better?

There are pros and cons for both. There are plenty of people very happy with their Chinese machines and there are plenty of people happy with their US machines. Be an informed consumer and do what is best for you.

[Scott Shepherd]

Well that's not true at all. You have to have the work to fill the potential. If finding good clients was easy, we'd all be rich. Also if we're talking in theory, well theoretically you could buy 2-3 Chinese machines for the price of 1 Trotec and I highly doubt that the single Trotec can out produce the one Chinese machine. Lastly, if you don't have the money to buy the Trotec but you have the money to buy the Chinese machine, which one is better?

There are pros and cons for both. There are plenty of people very happy with their Chinese machines and there are plenty of people happy with their US machines. Be an informed consumer and do what is best for you.

Ross, my point isn't that no one should buy one. My point is that on every other machine, he bought the high end. Now when it comes to the laser, he's looking at the low end.

One person's not going to run 3 lasers either, full time, unless you have the right type of work, but the work we do, one person can't hardly keep up with 1 laser, much less 3.

Chinese machines have a place, but not sitting next to a Multicam router!

Just because you can't afford anything but the cheap machine doesn't mean it's the right decision. I think it's amazing that people just gloss over all the threads about tinkering and working on the majority of those posts. There are countless threads about having to solder wires on, get meters out and test voltage, then there's the entire software thing that gets about 100 posts. For some reason, some people don't think their time is valuable.

If you want to really get honest about it Ross, let's take those examples and bill the time for lost work and we'll see how fast that "cheap" machine gets expensive. My time is valuable and if I've got the covers off and looking to troubleshoot the hardware or the software, then that's LOST production. If the machine doesn't have any work on it, it's still LOST production. You kept me from working on something else that I would have been charging for. It doesn't take too many of those hours to stack up to real money.

Yes, I'll take your challenge if you'd like to do a true cost analysis on a Chinese Machine versus a brand name. I spent years justifying and analyzing CNC machine purchases for several corporations. I've seen the arguments and I've run the numbers. They all look great up front, but in the end, nothing beats quality and easy of use.

[Rodne Gold]

If you cant afford the Rolls , then you have to get a hoopdie golf to get around , if you refuse to buy anything other than the Roll's , then you stay home.

[Scott Shepherd]

That's simply not true. In many cases you can get a used machine for the same price that you'll pay for the Chinese machine.

Rodney, everything you compare is to an old Mercury. I'd love for you to actually use one of the newer machines in a production environment and then get your take on it all.

I've been there, done that. I've owned a number of pieces of Chinese equipment. I'm not anti-Chinese, I just don't think it makes sense to skimp on the laser. Our lasers are a critical part of our shop. We treat them as such.

Like I said, you can justify it any way you want, but justifying it by price is saying your time is worth nothing. Because it appears to be okay to work on them just to get them running. In my world, that's not okay. If it's your hobby, then it's probably fine, if I'm depending on product to deliver to customers, that's not fine with me. Go back and read the actual posts about people needing help getting this or that going and then start tying dollars to all those hours and you'll see how much was lost by the decision.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ross, my point isn't that no one should buy one. My point is that on every other machine, he bought the high end. Now when it comes to the laser, he's looking at the low end.

One person's not going to run 3 lasers either, full time, unless you have the right type of work, but the work we do, one person can't hardly keep up with 1 laser, much less 3.

Chinese machines have a place, but not sitting next to a Multicam router!

Just because you can't afford anything but the cheap machine doesn't mean it's the right decision. I think it's amazing that people just gloss over all the threads about tinkering and working on the majority of those posts. There are countless threads about having to solder wires on, get meters out and test voltage, then there's the entire software thing that gets about 100 posts. For some reason, some people don't think their time is valuable.

If you want to really get honest about it Ross, let's take those examples and bill the time for lost work and we'll see how fast that "cheap" machine gets expensive. My time is valuable and if I've got the covers off and looking to troubleshoot the hardware or the software, then that's LOST production. If the machine doesn't have any work on it, it's still LOST production. You kept me from working on something else that I would have been charging for. It doesn't take too many of those hours to stack up to real money.

Yes, I'll take your challenge if you'd like to do a true cost analysis on a Chinese Machine versus a brand name. I spent years justifying and analyzing CNC machine purchases for several corporations. I've seen the arguments and I've run the numbers. They all look great up front, but in the end, nothing beats quality and easy of use.

There are threads about Epilog machines too. The difference is, most of the issues with Epilog machines are fielded via their support staff vs the Chinese machine owners are left going to forums to figure things out.

I agree 100% that US machines are better. I won't agree that they are always the right choice.

I think the biggest issue with people and Chinese lasers is they try to tinker with them. They should be treated like your washing machine. If you break any part in your washing machine, they don't try to find the broken wire. They replace the whole wiring harness.

As for the cost analysis, I doubt we'll agree on how to look at the numbers and that's fine. I don't really care what kind of machine anyone buys. I just think your definitive statements in regards to this topic are unnecessary.

[Terry Albrecht]

I am in the jewelry business and I do CAD for designing jewelry. This conversation is so much like other disagreements that I see concerning which CAD program to use. The pricing ranges all over the place. Everyone loves their own programs. Everyone talks about how much better theirs is than the one that someone else has. When a newbie asks which to buy and the same arguments come forth as in this thread. Those of us that have been in the business a while will find a way to make money with what we have ( I own one of the more expensive programs). Bottom line is if you can't afford the more expensive machine just get in the game and make the money and upgrade. If you can afford to get US made laser then I believe there is an advantage. If you can't then go chinese and make it work for you. Make money, put some back and when you have a bank roll you will have more options to choose from.

[Rodne Gold]

Cutting speeds for acrylic will depend on tube power rather than max engraving speed, that's what the original poster says he wants to use it primarily for. Thats what I bought mine for and they far outperform my other lasers in that regard.
However not to say thruput engraving speed isn't important as undoubtedly the OP will find LOTS of other uses other than cutting , being in the signage business , a laser will open up all sorts of markets.

[Craig Matheny]

Lastly, if you don't have the money to buy the Trotec but you have the money to buy the Chinese machine, which one is better?


Ross maybe it is better not to buy anything if you can't afford a machine that First...you can run and operate (Chinese laser huge learning curve) Secondly keep the machine running and not be down from not having great tech support (some of the cost of the USA made machines) Thirdly and the most important.... Maybe it is not the time to expand the business if you can not be sure you can provide the same customer service that you have been providing your customers the worst thing you can do is expand.

[Rodne Gold]

He seems to be looking for better dimensional and tighter radii'ed cuts on the acrylic he is cutting on his router and he will get that with a laser , even a cheapy.

[Craig Matheny]

Ok so forget about the expansion part still if he does not have the time or ability to fix and manipulate a Chinese laser it might be best to wait.

I guess the question I have is how many people posting on here bought Chinese for their first laser? I know of a few of you that love the Chinese laser learned on a Universal.

[Bill Cunningham]

My machine is now coming up on 9 years old, so I will have a decision to make in the next few years.. The Chinese machines seem to be improving year by year. I love my Epilog, and value the the excellent tech support, but part of my decision will be based on how fast I can get replacement parts. At one time, I could call Epilog, and have the replacement parts IN my machine, and back running in just over 24 hours, this was a HUGE plus. This, due to a change in shipping, has now increased to 3 days or more.(ya I know, YOU can get it the next day via UPS, But I'm in Canada, and I Can't) I if I can get parts expressed shipped from China in 2-3 days, this Epilog edge has been lost to me.. DHL always got things to me overnight, Epilog now uses UPS, which has held items in a Toronto wharehouse for 24 hours before delivering to me 50 miles away just to keep their international deliveries at 3 days as advertised. So, if the Chinese machines continue their upward trend in reliability, my main consideration (besides a much lower initial cost), will definitely be how fast I can get replacement parts, and with the time being equal, I will be seriously looking at Chinese machines. I already import much of my glassware from China, so who knows!

[Keith Outten]

I started with an Epilog Legend laser engraver. My second was a Chinese APLazer which had some nice features but it was way to slow for my sign shop. My current machine is a Trotec Speedy 300 eighty watt that is a real work horse that is faster than I had imagined possible.

I have gone on record here concerning my opinion about purchasing tools. I use a "Best Value" analysis when I am shopping and the price of any machine or tool is never my number one concern. Sometimes the least expensive is often the best value.

My situation is very close to Steve Shepherd in that I have to have a laser engraver that is FAST and RELIABLE. The reason these are the most important to me is that when I sign a contract to deliver 400 signs I have to be on time. The Trotec is a superb machine, the engineering involved is probably the best in the industry. The good news is that over the last few years the Trotec laser engravers have become price competitive with most of the American machines yet they are still way ahead of their competitors in quality, performance and reliability IMO.

My Best Value system can be applied to just about any situation from hobby engraving to serious commercial work. Your obligations and the time required to accomplish any particular task will weigh heavy in an educated decision you make when you decide which machine suits the job at hand.

[Craig Matheny]

Kieth what was the learning curve from the Epilog to the Chinese laser

[Rich Harman]

The OP wants a laser to cut 24" x 48" acrylic sheets. Last I checked, a 75W Epilog of that size would cost $40k or more. I imagine a Trotec would be even higher. The Ferrari like quality of the Trotec is going to be lost on such a simple task as cutting out acrylic lettering. There would be no difference is throughput unless there is rastering involved.

Buying a used mainstream laser means that you may very well be looking at spending thousands on a new tube or driver board at any time. Just the repair cost on a used mainstream laser could exceed that of an imported machine.

There is a learning curve with any laser I think but to say that a Chinese laser has a "huge" learning curve is not accurate. I know students that have learned quite readily to use the Shenhui machine. Other than lack of cleaning and bashing the nozzle into the table they have not had any significant issues.

I do not think you are doing the OP any favors by encouraging him to spend several times his budget on a mainstream machine in order to avoid few hours worth of "fiddling".

Remember, were talking about cutting 2' x 4' sheets of acrylic - not engraving name tags.

[Rodne Gold]

Amazing that most objections to buying Cheaper Chinese machines for this posters application come from those that don't own em , and fly in the face of experience of people that do....
To the OP , search the boards for chinese lasers , read all the posts , see what you can afford and then make a decision..

[Mike Null]

Rodney

One need only read the hundreds of posts on this forum relative to Chinese lasers to see that the experiences of those who own them are fraught with one difficulty after another. And yes, there are success stories but so many more who have problems.

Even if I were a hobbyist I would not buy a Chinese laser but would look for used equipment from a company that offers tech support and a domestically based parts supply. It would also be nice to have drivers that work and compatibility with software that is in general use.

[Keith Outten]

Kieth what was the learning curve from the Epilog to the Chinese laser

Craig,
The Epilog Legend I owned had to be the most simple laser I have ever seen to operate. The driver was basic but it had everything I needed.
Making the switch to the APLazer was difficult for me. I found the LaserCut software to be confusing and it did not have an option to use inches.
It was a major stretch to go from the Epilog driver to software at the other end of the spectrum.

There were a lot of things I liked about the APLazer. The design allowed you to lift the top cabinet off of the stand and then engrave anything you could put on a hydraulic table and roll it underneath the laser. The machine was huge compared to what I was used to but the size wasn't near as much of a benefit as I thought it would be.

Rich,
Although I agree with you in this case, I also know from experience that the jobs you are doing today may be totally different from the ones that come your way tomorrow so we all need to at least factor this into a decision we are about to make. I did say that sometimes the least expensive machine is the best value if it is the best fit for the job. I found the LaserCut software to be much more difficult to learn than Aaron Koehl did. Aaron can adapt to just about any software in minutes, I can't learn as fast as he can.

I won't bash Chinese laser engravers because I think that they have their place. On the other hand if you ever get the chance to spend some time with the Trotec Ferrari there is no doubt in my mind you will be significantly impressed. You probably wouldn't by a Ferrari to put-put around town.

-----------

In the end it really is about whether you are engraving for fun or for profit that seems to be the most important factor in the purchase of any machine. If you have to sign a job contract or if you have promised to deliver a product on a particular date then the reliability issue becomes the most important part of the purchasing equation. Most of us only own one laser engraver, we don't have a backup machine to use when our laser is down. Owning multiple machines lessens the need to buy a more reliable laser engraver.

When I purchased my Epilog the price scared me to death. I rarely did any commercial work in those days so I didn't have the profit margins to support such an expensive machine. In fact my goal in purchasing the laser was to move up a level or two and be able to offer products from my shop that would be more valuable. If you fast forward to today my situation is totally different in that I now have a product that is very profitable and enough work to keep me comfortable so the price of a high end machine is not nearly as big an issue as it was just a few years ago.

Now that I am in a position to be able to afford a Trotec Ferrari I really enjoy the 150 IPS speeds down the straightaway and the 5G cornering. The built-in air compressor is so quiet you can't hear it run, in fact the whole machine is so quiet you can talk on the phone while its running. Trotec's software is just incredible and it was easy to learn which is just as important to me as the hardware because I'm an old dog and it takes me a long time to learn new things. Because I didn't have a clue how elegant a Trotec laser was I never considered how much fun it would be to drive one. Now that I have spent nine months running two Speedy 300's I understand completely how much I enjoy driving such an incredible machine. If you just look inside the cabinet you can see right away how much effort was spent designing a machine that is both easy to keep clean and how the protection of the major components from dirt and dust will extend their life.
.

[David Fairfield]

I'd buy an Epilog again because of the reliability, simplicity to operate, tech support and precision.

If I had a repetitive industrial application where precision didn't matter as much and I needed high power, I might get a Chinese laser due to costs. But I'd shop very carefully for reliability, simplicity and tech support. And I'd make darn sure it works with Corel and Adobe.

Dave

[Keith Outten]

I failed to comment on the fact that I have spent five years running a Xenetech XLT laser. I dislike the Xenetech even though the hardware is top shelf stuff. The Corel Draw driver is buggy and Xenetech never fixed any of the problems in spite of my constant complaining and their promises to make things right. The Xenetech is right next to my desk at CNU and I would rather go to the shop to use the Trotec. What makes this situation even worse is that the Xenetech was more expensive five years ago than the Trotec is today.

My point is that just because a machine is made in America doesn't mean it is a superior product. If you search this Forum you will find plenty of cases where people had horrible problems with some of the Epilog models.
.

[Scott Shepherd]

Amazing that most objections to buying Cheaper Chinese machines for this posters application come from those that don't own em , and fly in the face of experience of people that do....
To the OP , search the boards for chinese lasers , read all the posts , see what you can afford and then make a decision..

That was exactly my point to you. Don't tell users that are running mainstream machines how much better your machines are when you don't have a mainstream machine that's newer than 2006.

Also, not many people have the 1000's of dollars and weeks of time that you had to fly to China and travel around the countries to factories to find a place that met your quality standards. I didn't have to fly to China or takes weeks off, or spend 1000's traveling to find a quality machine. So I'm not convinced you've saved anything on your laser. Granted, you went to buy bulk materials as well, but I don't know too many people in this business, particularly those thinking about buying their first machine that can afford a trip to China to see if the factory looks legitimate.

[Craig Matheny]

Keith you are correct on the issue of superiority every company does put out a bad unit here and there. However, you have to put in tech support and parts availability, I know this much if my laser goes down and turns out to have the same issue after issue I will get that machine replaced if it is a Chinese machine good luck.

My first Epilog that I still run is a 2005 I bought the demo unit with 2 year warranty on it started having issues Epilog was willing to take the machine and replace it or at my choice give me 2 more years of warranty on it I chose the warranty and it turned out that there was a bad connector and once that was fixed no more of that issue. The tube went out 2.5 years after I got it and they sent out a tube no cost. Finally I have had to put in a tube on my dime after 6 years to me that is not bad. I guess the point I am trying to make is if that machine was not US made and if I did not live in the US it is a mute, point but I do live here and if that was a Chinese machine there is no way I would have gotten or still have this great service.

Now I know there will be some of you that defend the issue, you can go to your local electronics store and buy a part. My Question how many of you have the ability to do electronic trouble shooting or the time becasue most of us do not have a full staff of employees.

[john banks]

Thanks to Rodney's work, his kind and helpful documentation on his experience, when we were despairing of finding a suitable machine at a good price, we bought a Chinese machine instead of a local one as our first machine, saving £30000 with genuinely comparable results for cutting performance and quality. It is behind the Epilog for engraving speed, but the quality is there when slowed down and we do little engraving. For cutting it knocks our Epilog demo and the items sent away to Epilog technical in the US into a cocked hat. When we had an early stepper motor driver failure, the replacement arrived in two working days from China, but had we needed to rely on Chinese support to diagnose the fault it would have been tough. Other repairs have had us visiting our local pneumatics supplier a few times for replacement air and water parts that seemed to be poor quality. The machine itself is tough and straight, we're not locked into replacing any parts that fail with proprietary parts. If China hadn't been responsive to get us a new driver I could have had one from a few different local sources just as quickly.

Steve, you previously demonstrated vector marking performance on your new machine which impressed you. If you recall, I followed it with very similar speed on my Chinese machine. Had you demonstrated rastering it would of course be a completely different matter, but about 90% of what we do is vector.

[Rich Harman]

Mr Forer asked a very specific question. Most of the replies in this thread are off topic.

A Chinese machine will do the job he needs it to, within (under) his specified budget. It is as simple as that. A mainstream machine that meets his size requirement is going to exceed his budget several times.

It seems obvious that this will be his first laser. No one can say how his business will evolve. It would be foolish to spend an extra $30,000 just in case he might want to use it for other work. I think you guys are forgetting the size requirement. The smallest Trotec that would meet his needs is a Speedy 500 - anyone know what that would cost?

If he finds that the Chinese machine is not meeting his needs in the future he will know much better just exactly what he does need. He would then have the option of purchasing a smaller mainstream machine (Speedy 300) to supplement his Chinese machine and spend less money on those two machines than one large mainstream one.

[Rich Harman]

Don't tell users that are running mainstream machines how much better your machines are when you don't have a mainstream machine that's newer than 2006.
I don't think Rodney has said that the Chinese machines are better. I think he has said that they are workhorses and they run constantly with very little issues.


Also, not many people have the 1000's of dollars and weeks of time that you had to fly to China and travel around the countries to factories to find a place that met your quality standards. I didn't have to fly to China or takes weeks off, or spend 1000's traveling to find a quality machine. So I'm not convinced you've saved anything on your laser. Granted, you went to buy bulk materials as well, but I don't know too many people in this business, particularly those thinking about buying their first machine that can afford a trip to China to see if the factory looks legitimate.

Rodney may not have saved as much, but many others have thanks to him. We all have benefited from Rodney's trip to China, we have insight to one Chinese manufacturer so we do not need to fly to China to inspect the facilities.

[Bruce Dorworth]

Can I get an Amen here. That is exactly it!