Home GFCI Electrical

[Mark Mandell]

I'm installing a new whirlpool tub as part of a bathroom renovation. Units calls for two 220v/20a GFCI dedicated circuits; 1 for pump, other for the heater.

I ran two 10-3wg cables and it's time to start making connections. I open the junctions boxes on the tub and fing a blue, a brown , and a green wire. Blue and brown are the hots and that's fine, but now comes the questions.

1. Do I connect the white supply wire to the green and use only the bare ground to ground the splice box? or

2. Do I connect the green to the bare ground and thence to the box along with the bare ground?

3. Do I have 1 too many wires in this equation?

4. If #1 is "yes," do I run the white to the neutral lug on the breaker, and just run the bare to the ground bar?

5. If #2 is "yes", which wire to I run to the neutral lug on the breaker?

Any help would be appreciated

Mark Mandell
Trying not to fry in Spring-like New Jersey

[Mike Cutler]

Mark. 3 conductor 10 awg has a Black, Red and White wire along with a bare copper ground. From the info you posted the Black and White wire would be the 220 supply and the bare copper the ground. The bare copper and the green from the hot tub should be at the same potential. I can't say that they can both be connected to the box, because I don't know your local codes. They may have to be connected together, and then connected to the box. Brown and Blue should be the Hot wired, or the 220 for the hot tub.
If you only have a Black,White and a bare copper coming into the box, then the Black and the White are HOTS, white will not ne a "neutral".


Addy Protocol. Not a liscensed electrician.

[Jason Roehl]

Mark, if your hot tub is exclusively 240V, then you do have one too many wires in your supply line--you only needed to run 10-2. 240V does not require a neutral wire. When there is a neutral wire on a 240 circuit, it is because the appliance has 120V accessories, such as the interior/exterior lights on an electric stove. So what you should probably do is hook black to brown, blue to red, bare to green, then put an electrical nut on the white, but hook it up in your panel.

I'm not an electrician, either, but I've done a fair amount of wiring, and I'm still here. I also spend quite a bit of time on new construction jobsites, and have pestered other subcontractors with many questions, particularly electricians.

[Mark Mandell]

Mike,

The red and the black are the hots in a 240 3-wire cable. My question is how to handle the white wire and the bare-ground wire for proper GFCI operation since there is an extra connection required for the GFCI breaker.

Thanks

Mark

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Mark,

I hate to say this, but I think you may need to contact an electrictian in this case. I am not up on my GFCI breakers. In a normal 220v appliance you do not need a neutral (white) wire. However most GFCI's require a Neutral wire to work.

[Mark Mandell]

Guys,

In order for the GFCI breaker to work, it must also be connected to the circuit's ground. In 120 applications it's easy because the bare goes to ground and the white "grounding conductor" goes to the breaker's extra connection and then on to the common terminal via the built-in pigtail.

My tendency here is to connect both the bare-ground and the white to the appliance grounding green wire and then "split" them in the service box with the bare going directly to the ground bar and the white going to the breaker's terminal. Just need to confirm that's proper.

Don't want the tub to be more invigorating than it's designed to be. :eek:

Thanks

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Mark,

I would just use the ground. This is how it is meant to be wired it sounds like. Useing the neutral may cause confusion down the road. You shouldn't ever hook an appliance ground to a white wire :)

[Jim Becker]

Mark, the white wire is unused and should not be connected at either end. Cap it off. The bare wire is your ground and should connect to the green lead in the unit.

[Mark Mandell]

Jim,

I can cap the white, but do I then connect the bare ground to the breaker's second terminal?

Thanks

Mark

[Jim Becker]

I can cap the white, but do I then connect the bare ground to the breaker's second terminal?

NO! Black and red are your hots and connect to the two poles of your breaker. Bare is your ground and goes to the ground buss in your breaker box. GFCI breakers have a special extra connection to deal with their grounding requirement in the box. Since there is water on the floor in our basement right now, I cannot look at the unit we have to specifically comment on it...for obviouse reasons. (That's what's keeping me from completing the new wiring for the lights I hung over the dining table in our great room...spring rains)

Mark, seriously...I think it may be a good idea to have an electrician review your work before you flip the switch, not only for your own personal safely, but to insure there is no chance of damaging your new fixture's inards.

[Robert Ducharme]

Hey, critical question here. HOW ACCESSIBLE are the GFCIs? Are they going to be placed in the enclosure for the tub? If so, you will have a hard time resetting them. You could do like I did and that is install a separate GFI breaker in the circuit breaker box. This way, if they flip, you can reset them without pulling out panels, etc. Then hardware the tub motor/heater into the box in the enclosure.

[Jim Becker]

Robert, since this is 240v, I believe Mark's using GFCI breakers based on his subsequent posts...

[Robert Ducharme]

Yep, missed that part. Never mind. :o

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Mark, seriously...I think it may be a good idea to have an electrician review your work before you flip the switch, not only for your own personal safely, but to insure there is no chance of damaging your new fixture's inards.

Mark,

I would second Jim's suggestion of having an electrician look over your work. All of the uncertainty would make me want to make sure that I was wiring this up correctly.

Good luck on this, damaging your new tub, or worse you would really ruin your day.

[Mark Mandell]

Okay, bit of recap

There are 2 discrete circuits, each on its own 240v 20a GFCI breaker as required by the tub manufacturer (Kohler); one for pump, one for heater.

Wiring diagram for these breakers REQUIRES a third conductor to be connected to each breaker IN ADDITION to the 2 hot feeds and existing white wire pigtail that connects to the service panel's common bar. Thus the application requires 4-wire cable. This is very different from common 120v GFCI's because in that application, a 3 wire cable, the black goes to the hot, the white goes to the extra breaker terminal, the bare ground goes to the system ground, and the breaker's white pigtail goes to the common bus.

Problem then is there are only 3 wires (2 hot feeds and the green ground) in the tub wiring harness to connect to the 4 wires in the cable.

If it's any consolation, I called the manufacturer this morning, worked through several reps until I hit the senior one, and after I explained the issue again he politely took my name and number to have the company EE reply because he's had this same inquiry several times and they need to get it corrected once and for all. Gent was very nice, slightly apologetic for my having to call and ask about what is an obvious glich in the installation instructions, and expressed some concern over other sales of this tub where the installers did not call for assistance.

So, we'll see . . .

[Mark Mandell]

Just for reference:

A Sparky consult resolved the issue. The extra white wire on the breaker is used in case a 120v feed is needed at the other end of the line, like if I was going to put mood lights ("chromo-therepy") or a sound system in the tub. I'm therefore to wire the breaker per specs, the green wire at the tub goes to the bare ground, and the white conductor is capped in the tub junction box for later optional use.

Bottom line is I pulled extra wire, but it's in now.

Thanks for your help , Gents! :D

Mark

[Chris Padilla]

I see that you've figured it out. One thing to keep in mind when wiring 120 V GFCI (no experience with 240 V GFCI) is that each hot requires it's own neutral so a typical 3-wire circuit (or Edison circuit) will be short a neutral to properly wire the two circuits.

For most electrical dryers that run on 240 V, they need the neutral to run the light in the dryer since it works off of 120 V.

I'm wondering in your situation that if you need 120 V, will it be properly GFCI protected?

Also, keep in mind that in a sub-panel, your neutrals and system ground are isolated from each other. In the main panel, they are bonded together. It sounds like your GFCI breakers are in the main panel?

[Mark Mandell]

It sounds like your GFCI breakers are in the main panel?

Chris,

Old style CH service panel >> the neutral and the ground bus are one in the same. :rolleyes:

Thanks,

Mark