Questions on P&L #38

[Kent A Bathurst]

I will be making some tables out of curly maple. Am considering the #38. Have never used it before, so I have some questions that will help me decide. The questions are not necessarily interrelated - they are areas in which I am comfortable with shellac or the Behlens I often use.

1. Can it be wiped on a la Behlen's or Waterlox? With MS specified as the thinner, I assume that is the thinner to use for wiping reduction?

2. They say "pale amber" color. How would this compare to dewaxed ultra pale shellac? I assume it is noticeably lighter in color that the Behlens?

3. Can it be rubbed out? Same general approach as, say, the Behlens? [need to build a good film thickness; need to wait 4 weeks or so for ultimate cure]?

4. I may want to use very light coat BLO to pop the grain. Should I put down dewaxed shellac seal coat after BLO and before #38? I do this with all other finishes.

5. If I use water-borne Transfast powdered dye to highlight grain, same question re: shellac seal coat?

6. General comments/observations as to its performance for moderate to moderate-high surfaces [sofa end tables that enjoy occasional, but regular, visits from the 1 yr old to 5 yr old gang.....plastic toys, sippy cups, etc.]

Thanks

[Prashun Patel]

1. Yes. MS.
2. In order of darkness: Pale blonde shellac, 38, Waterlox high gloss, Waterlox OSF, Behlens RH
3. Yes.
4. No need to use shellac as a barrier coat btn BLO and 38. P&L will be close to BLO in color, so IMHO, the grain pop benefit of BLO is debatable. I usually use shellac as a sealer under film finishes. It gets me to an even sheen with the topcoat quicker.
5. Transfast waterbased dye will color the wood, not highlight the grain. If you can spray the shellac, then yes, I would barrier it. In fact, I'd shoot it 2-3 times with 1.5# and then sand gently with 220-400 to get back to smooth (skip the grain raising beforehand). If you can't spray, go straight to the P&L thinned. Don't wipe hard; it will lift to a slight degree - but less than if trying to wipe/brush on shellac. After a sealer coat of the varnish, sand it smooth - gently...
6. It's a good choice for a high use table. The only caveat is leaving any kind of plastic on it for the first few months. When the surface warms, the solvents in plastic can leech ever so slightly out and can soften the surface of an uncured varnish top. A sippy cup isn't going to hurt it, but a full vinyl three-ring binder might. I learned this the hard way.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Prashun....perfect...... thanks. I value the brevity and non-equivocation. :D

Simply FYI - the Transfast points - I have found that the Transfast [the powdered stuff], if left to dry overnight, barely lifts at all - the Transtint [liquid stuff] lifts quite a bit in comparison.........so I will take many years to work out my inventory of that - if ever - because I don't use it very often.

So - I can use a pad as an applicator for the shellac without having a lift problem.

Also - yeah, the dye colors the wood, but then a good sanding knocks the color back for the "field" and emphasizes the curl - at least, that's what it did on a sample I ran. Very slight emphasis - vintage maple, IIRC, more dilute than SOP, and the color itself was pretty much in line with the following couple coats of Behlen's, so it wasn't "glaring".

I will pass along the 3-ring-binder tip. I can visualize what happened to you - must have been heart-breaking. I assume you had a sufficient inventory of cuss words available to address the problem. :p

Regards,

Kent

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> 1. Can it be wiped on a la Behlen's or Waterlox? With MS specified as the thinner, I assume that is the thinner to use for wiping reduction?

Yes, P&L38 is just a varnish like the other two. Except is a light color because it's made with alkyd resin and soya oil. You can make it into a wipe-on varnish by thinning with MS.

>>>> 2. They say "pale amber" color. How would this compare to dewaxed ultra pale shellac? I assume it is noticeably lighter in color that the Behlens?

Yes, it's quite a bit lighter in color than Behlens and Waterlox which are made with phenolic resin which is very dark.

>>>> 3. Can it be rubbed out? Same general approach as, say, the Behlens? [need to build a good film thickness; need to wait 4 weeks or so for ultimate cure]?

Yes, but let is fully dry/cure for 4-6 weeks just as you would with any other oil based varnish.

>>>> 4. I may want to use very light coat BLO to pop the grain. Should I put down dewaxed shellac seal coat after BLO and before #38? I do this with all other finishes.

Yes, you can if you want. It's not really necessary in most cases.

>>>> 5. If I use water-borne Transfast powdered dye to highlight grain, same question re: shellac seal coat?

Again, you can if you want. But it's not required when applying an oil based finish on top of a water based dye.

>>>> 6. General comments/observations as to its performance for moderate to moderate-high surfaces [sofa end tables that enjoy occasional, but regular, visits from the 1 yr old to 5 yr old gang.....plastic toys, sippy cups, etc.]

P&L 38 is an excellent durable varnish that has no bad characteristics. But it's always a good idea to test out the finish on scrap or in an inconspicuous spot when using a new finish or application process.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Thanks, as always, Howie.

[David Kuzdrall]

Not to hijack this thread but if this were turned into a wiping varnish with MS, would it be a wipe on and wipe off type or more like waterlox original where their technicians want you to wipe on and let sit?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Vast number of threads in history here on that topic.......from which I learned it is wipe on and let it sit. In fact - wipe on with a Scott Blue Shop Towel - no foolin' - [the classic line is: "wipe it on like a kid cleaning a table at the local Denny's], wait 1 hour, 2d coat, wait 1 hour, 3d coat. That equals one brushed coat. Wait overnight. Rinse. Repeat. I personally go through 2 cycles - occasionally 3 - before sanding with 320 and start over. My decision on 2 v 3 is based on dust nib accumulation.

I'm wrapping up 2 A&C dining arm chairs to go with 4 side chairs, table, 3 side tables.........only the table tops were of a size where brush on made sense. Much, much easier to do wipe on for all those components - like the interminable number of square spindles..................

[Scott Holmes]

David,

Wipe-on wipe-off is the technique for an oil/varnish blend, aka Danish Oil. Wiping varnish is wipe it on leave it alone as Kent said above.

[David Kuzdrall]

One less step....perfect.

Thx

[Kent A Bathurst]

David:

Just to be sure the record is correct on this....most of what I know on the topic was learned from Obi-Wan Holmes just above, much of the remainder from Howie further above, and the rest was from making mistakes and figuring out how I flew it into the hill in spite of their guidance.

[John Piwaron]

I will be making some tables out of curly maple. Am considering the #38. Have never used it before, so I have some questions that will help me decide. The questions are not necessarily interrelated - they are areas in which I am comfortable with shellac or the Behlens I often use.

1. Can it be wiped on a la Behlen's or Waterlox? With MS specified as the thinner, I assume that is the thinner to use for wiping reduction? yes. mineral spirits.

2. They say "pale amber" color. How would this compare to dewaxed ultra pale shellac? I assume it is noticeably lighter in color that the Behlens? It's very pale. I've used it directly over hard maple and the result was virtually water white. I like it but I've been asked when I was going to finish the wood. :)


3. Can it be rubbed out? Same general approach as, say, the Behlens? [need to build a good film thickness; need to wait 4 weeks or so for ultimate cure]? yes, but I'd wait a while to be sure it's completely cured.

4. I may want to use very light coat BLO to pop the grain. Should I put down dewaxed shellac seal coat after BLO and before #38? I do this with all other finishes. I'd just use the #38 directly and not use the BLO.

5. If I use water-borne Transfast powdered dye to highlight grain, same question re: shellac seal coat?

6. General comments/observations as to its performance for moderate to moderate-high surfaces [sofa end tables that enjoy occasional, but regular, visits from the 1 yr old to 5 yr old gang.....plastic toys, sippy cups, etc.] Once completely cured it's tough as nails. I applied it to the treads of a staircase several years ago and to date it's still as good as the day I applied it.