Wide Belt Sander questions

[Ira Matheny]

I am planning to obtain a 'Wide-Belt' sander. Of course, we have all heard about 'TimeSaver', but what about some of the others?

Has anyone any experience with a Powermatic 25? Laguna 25? What about some of the others, such as Lobo and Grizzley?

I am leaning towards Laguna, only because I've had tremendous experience with every Laguna tool I own and with every query/transaction with Torbin and his people. But I am not necessarily married to Laguna.

What about the 37" tools? I do not frequently work with wide panels, so the 37" tool is not necessary. I have plenty of 3 phase power, so I could go either single or 3 phase.

Should I consider 'used' or stay with 'new' and get factory support?

I would welcome honest and knowledgable responses regarding wide belt sanders.

[Rick Fisher]

IMO .. The absolute best designed wide belt is made by Kundig.

I have an SCM Sandya Win and use it often, its an amazing machine but after watching and looking at others, the Kundig would be my #1 choice if I where buying new.

The biggest hassle with mine is long material. Get up over about 6 feet and the material needs support, or leverage puts too much pressure on the ends of the sanding .. This means roller stands ..

That is where the Kundig shines. The entire heat moves up and down while the sanding conveyor remains at a constant height .. Brilliant .. The thickness automatically adjusts and the conveyor starts automatically, allowing you to be at the back, holding up the end.. Its like having 2 people.

On Laguna, I would be curious which machine you where looking at ? They have a couple machines which seem really under powered to me.

Timesavers is huge and good for support.. The lower end machines are made in Asia which turned me off.. The middle and upper machines are impressive, but I would still go Kundig for the ability to set up support tables once, and not have to adjust as the thickness changed..

The things I would look at if shopping for another sander are the following ..

(1) Ease of belt changes .. ( The SCM Sandya win system is clumsy )
(2) Automatic thickness measuring ( don't have it, would love to have it )
(3) Quality of conveyor belt ( no complaints with SCM, but changing them is expensive )
(4) Availability of technical service .. ( Can they fix it or tell you what your doing wrong)

The Euro Laguna is made by ECM, same as Felder.. Safety Speed cut is appealing for light use, simple and well built but I dislike the conveyor they use .. SCM and Timesaver's have parts and technical expertise.. Kundig is sold by Homag, top quality, made in Germany ..

How much you planning to spend ?


( on the issue of used, I would buy a good used machine .. ( I did ) .. You need to know where it came from .. I see used Sandya 1 machines for $8000 - $10,000 .. 18hp .. basic working machines..

[jack duren]

I can only tell you what I have seen in the last 30yrs of being in shops commercial and residential. Most small residential shops were using AEM. Some were using Timesavers but mainly AEM. In the commercial end I mainly saw SCMI.

New or used?.... We just picked up a 3phase 37" for $1500 with a signed legal guarantee.

For what little you will use the machine I would go used. So many shops here in Kansas City have closed equipment is everywhere.

[Brian Brightwell]

I bought a Jet 24inch WB-sander a couple years ago for $2700. It does the job well. Mine had the damage to the infeed roller. I didn't notice it because the machine looked close to new. It is still not fixed. I had one estimate of $500. If anyone could recommend a shop to do it I would appreciate it. So, If buying used don't make the same mistake.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/DSC_0735.jpg

[Jim Andrew]

I personally have a G9983 Grizzly widebelt, and it is a very nice hobby machine. The commercial shop I was a partner in had a speedsander by Timesaver, and it has been a great machine, having been used for a number of years, with very little in the way of maintenance. they have an outfeed table, to support long panels.

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight but maybe my experiences will help Ira's search. Obviously, I am not altogther impartial but can tell you that SCMi widebelts are a really safe choice. If I could offer two pieces of advice, they would be these: First, purchase from a manufacturer who specializes in widebelts rather than a dealer who just "has them as part of the lineup". I say that because unlike a planer, shaper, or something simple, widebelts are a more complicated machine and will probably require service and parts by a tech at some point during their lives. This leads me to the second piece of advice, which is that I would be VERY careful about buying a used widebelt, regardless of brand. There are two machines that I routinely see customers regret buying on the used market and which sometimes end up costing more than if a customer bought now, by the time my parts dept. gets through with them, and those are widebelts and big edgebanders. Again, it has nothing to do with brand but rather, how the machine was cared for prior to going to auction.

Can good buys be had on the used market? Absolutely. Can you get burned, too? Yep, seen it many times. Should you buy new or buy used? That is a question each one of us must answer for ourselves.

Thanks and best of luck with your search, Ira.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jeff Duncan]

A big question is how much use is the machine going to get? If it's going to be a daily user I'd likely make a different choice than if it's going to get used several times a month.

I'm a huge fan of used machinery. Just about every machine I bought new I've now sold off and replaced with better quality used equipment. However I think Erik gave you some good advice. Used sanders....especially late models can be very costly to repair. I bought a 77' Timesaver for my shop b/c the price was right. The thing I like most about it has very little in the way of electronics. If something goes wrong it's most likely going to be mechanical in nature, and hopefully I can fix it myself. If you open up a newer machine there's a ton of electronics in there and that's something I just don't do well with:( A simple electronic component from the dealer can set you back a grand! So with newer equipment I'd be much more careful.

Now having said that older machines can be money pits as well. Worn rollers and beds can be very costly to repair. I think the feed belt for my machine cost upwards of $600! And there are an awful lot of bearings in one of these machines to replace if/when needed. So you really do have to be very careful buying whatever the age!

Lastly I recommend going as big as you can within reason. There's always going to be that job that comes along that is too big for your sander. Ideally you want that situation as rare as possible. However if you run mostly narrow stuff and have a smaller electrical service than you don't want to go much bigger than you need. Sanders require a lot of hp, a good amount of air, and good dust collection. My 43" has a 25 hp motor which combined with a 5 hp compressor and a 7-1/2 hp cyclone, pushes my panel to it's max! So make sure you have enough power for everything to run simultaneously!

good luck,
JeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

If you could give us an idea of how you will use it, that would help figure out what is important. Drum (at the sanding head) diameter and material, conveyor belt type, platen size, horsepower, # of heads, head adjustments, and extra features (auto thickness set, variable speed, timed platen movement, etc.) all add up to a machine that is good at some jobs and compromised for others.

I have been happy with my SCMI 2-head. It is compact and has a single 30 HP motor driving both heads. It is set up as more of a fine finish sander with relatively small diameter drums, and a steel first drum. This does a good job of knocking down high spots or knots cleanly so that the second head can smooth the surface evenly. Although adjustments for abrasive thickness are fairly simple, I prefer to keep it set for my typical combination of grits. It does a great job on cabinet doors, which is how we use it 95% of the time.

[Scott T Smith]

One thing that I would suggest is to get as much HP as you can - it makes a real difference.

My 37" WBS is an EMC (Euro Laguna), about 22.5 HP. No complaints. A two headed sander would be nice though...

[Ira Matheny]

Wow... So much good knowledge from the users. I do appreciate all of the insight you have shared.

One issue surfaced........How do I plan on using this tool?

I make One-Off items. I may go few days or even 2 months without using my current drum sander, then use it for 6 hours on the very next day. I work a great deal in Claro Walnut, Cherry, Western [Big Leaf] Maple, Red and White Oak, and a few odd-ball woods. But my thing is not in production type runs. I usually make one or two of an items, then go off to something completely different.

I find I am limited by the size of the 3 Phase service. I don't want to spend thousands of $$$ upgrading my electrical service and panels.

[Erik Loza]

Ira, based on that volume of use, you might be better off just subbing those jobs out to a local millwrights. Assuming you could get a widebelt for a song, you would still be on the hook for a pretty large phase converter. Just looking at it from a return-on-investment perspective. It could take a long time for such a setup to pay for itself. Just my 2-cents.

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Chris Padilla]

Erik,

He states he has access to plenty of 3-phase...something a lot of us drool over! 3-phase motors can be had for a song quite often.

Ira,

How is your dust collection? That is KEY for a sander like this...gotta suck that dust out PRONTO.

[Erik Loza]

I guess I took Ira to mean that it would cost him thousands of $$$ to expand his three-phase panel, meaning that he was out of room and would need to run a converter or something. A conclusion I jumped to, perhaps.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Zach Callum]

I guess I took Ira to mean that it would cost him thousands of $$$ to expand his three-phase panel, meaning that he was out of room and would need to run a converter or something. A conclusion I jumped to, perhaps.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA


That is what I thought also. I was actually going to make the same suggestion.

[Jeff Duncan]

Can you be more specific about your power availability? Is it 3 from the pole or via a convertor of some sort? What's the total amperage of your panel if from the pole? What size dust collector and compressor are you running and are they on the same panel?

I don't want to start giving electrical advice, however if we have a better idea of what your dealing with we may be better able to advise you. For instance in my shop my panel is at full cap, but by starting machines one at a time and letting them come up to speed I get by. On the other hand if you have to go smaller on HP due to amperage restraints, I'd go with a narrower machine as very generally speaking you want as much hp per inch as you can afford.

Lastly I wouldn't give up on the widebelt....even with occasional use you will most likely get your money's worth if you shop carefully. They are really a huge leap from drum sanders.

good luck,
JeffD

[Ira Matheny]

I have a 12 hp 3 ph dust collection system with a bag house. More than adequate for most any wide-belt system.

[Scott T Smith]

That will certainly provide enough suction. I have a problem with mine when I sand a lot of veneer (I resaw it from boards - sometimes the WBS runs for a week continuously or more). The fine dust clogs up the filter fabric in the course of a few hours.

[Rick Fisher]

I would love to hear some feedback from users with bigger machines ..

Mine is 12hp x 25" .. I read the owners manual and in Europe, they offer it 9 hp ..

When Idling .. it draws 10 amps.. ( 220V ) .. Its maxed out at 31 amps.. It rarely if ever goes over 20 amps..

So while I agree that the machines are hogs on power .. I figure mine uses 8hp of the 12 that is available..

It makes me wonder .. I see 37" machines with 15hp, 18hp, 20hp, 25hp .. JR has a twin belt 37" with 25hp ? JR, do you use the power ?

I can run up to 20hp in my shop .. but it means swapping a breaker.. the way it sits right now .. I have about 50 amps.. One day I will upgrade to a 37" machine but wonder if I really need more than 15hp in a machine like that ?

[Larry Edgerton]

Ira

A friend of mine has a Timesavers import in 42" that runs on a ten HP three phase. It would not be the answer for production work, but it works just fine. Even taking light passes it is still way better than the other options. For what you want it for it does not sound as if you would need to be in a hurry, so this would be an option that you could use with limited power.

Larry

[Mike Heidrick]

Larry a friend has a 37" Speedsaver Timesaver import as well so I think I know that machinen you referenced. For his 1-2 man operation it is great. Under $10K at the time new, on casters and reasonable weight (maybe 2K lbs) to get in position on his raised plywood floor shop, and worked just fine. Griz has a line of them too. He has been happy with his machine. He added shopfox conveyors in and out and really likes the setup.

[Jeff Duncan]

I would love to hear some feedback from users with bigger machines ..

Mine is 12hp x 25" .. I read the owners manual and in Europe, they offer it 9 hp ..

When Idling .. it draws 10 amps.. ( 220V ) .. Its maxed out at 31 amps.. It rarely if ever goes over 20 amps..

So while I agree that the machines are hogs on power .. I figure mine uses 8hp of the 12 that is available..

It makes me wonder .. I see 37" machines with 15hp, 18hp, 20hp, 25hp .. JR has a twin belt 37" with 25hp ? JR, do you use the power ?

I can run up to 20hp in my shop .. but it means swapping a breaker.. the way it sits right now .. I have about 50 amps.. One day I will upgrade to a 37" machine but wonder if I really need more than 15hp in a machine like that ?

Rick, I think it really depends on what your trying to put through the machine. For instance if I'm rough sanding flat stock for drawer boxes my machine is barely working. Throw a finer grit belt to sand out a 30"+ wide table top and you have to take very light passes! My machine is a 43" with a 25 hp motor and I can bog it pretty easily if I'm not careful. On the other hand if I had to buy another one I'd probably go a little smaller on hp. As a small shop I can more closely monitor the machine and make sure it's not being pushed too hard.

The thing to remember is sanders have a much wider variety of factors to consider than say a planer. A planer is pretty easy to equate hp to width based on rough or finish planing. A sander has so many possibilities you really have to base it on your usage. Since your running one now you have a much better idea of what you'll need in the future!

As for dust collection size isn't the most important thing. 12 hp can such your skivvies off with clean filters, but if those filters start getting caked up with fine sanding dust your efficiency can drop pretty dramatically! Ideally you want to run a cyclone with a wide belt as they will separate much of the fine dust before hitting your bag house. I bought my widebelt from a shop that had a dedicated collector with 4 bags that sat right next to the machine. The machine was always spewing dust when it was running. Basically as soon as the filters got over caked the suction dropped and it barely worked. The previous owner was surprised to use it once I set it up in my shop and connected to my cyclone....no dust leakage:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Ira Matheny]

I am unsure of the AMPs of 3 phase I have available. I know the electriction told me when I install my last 3ph tool that I was over my limit if I had any four items running at the same time.

I do not have a 3 ph compressor, but would like to.

I do know I will need air, dust collection and the wide belt running at the same time. I believe I will then be running near capacity.
I think were I to upgrade to a 3ph air compressor, I may be running above current capacity.

I have a personal [read PLAY] shop, so I seldom have others working with me. When I do, it is ususally a entry level wood worker or kid to whom I am teaching some entry level skil, such as scroll sawing or pen turning. I only have a helper if I am trying to run a very heavy piece thru a machine, such a a table top or the like.

Phase convert is not an option.

[J.R. Rutter]

It makes me wonder .. I see 37" machines with 15hp, 18hp, 20hp, 25hp .. JR has a twin belt 37" with 25hp ? JR, do you use the power ?


I have the Sandya5 1100 RRCS. The main motor is actually 30 HP. I bought it from a shop in Canada where it was wired for 600V, so I got a transformer to convert my 208 3 PH. The transformer wastes a tiny bit of power in heat. I was able to do a long run of lighter gauge wire, which saved some money. The machine is most efficient (time-wise) when the amp meter is between 15 and 20 @ 600V, so that is somewhere around 45 to 60 A full load at 208V once you add the feed motor. Beyond that, the feed belts start to squeal and the motor begins to labor.

My 200A panel is absolutely maxed out, but I have never tripped a main breaker. The breakers for my two largest machines with their dust collectors running adds up to over 250, but Jeff is right that it is very difficult to actually use all of that power simultaneously, even if you tried.

[Erik Loza]

Ira, not trying to jab at you but what exactly is your plan and how far are you willing to take this? It seems like you want a sander but later, you are saying how you (if I read correctly...) are out of three-phase power, don't want to run a converter, don't want to spend the money to upgrade the panel, etc. Possibly it is just me but not exactly sure where it is that you want to end up in all of this. It could be just a fantasy shop-kind of thing, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just asking questions like everyone else in here, trying to figure out your plan so that we can give you the most helpful guidance.

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rick Fisher]

I actually only have a 4hp Dust collector .. the little wide belt is 12hp ..

I use a Felder RL-160 as Dust collection and actually find the fine dust off the sander clogs the filter... If I am diligent about cleaning the filter, it seems to be fine, if I ignore the factory filter cleaning tool, it cakes right over about once a year.. Not the end of the world..

As a guy who relies on a converter, I am a big believer in not running your compressor or dust collector off the phase converter..

JR.. thanks for that info .. I could supply the 45 amps to run your machine .. I just don't think I could start the motor .. lol

Erik, will SCM supply wide belts with smaller motors ? You must have a raft of experience with this issue ?

[Larry Edgerton]

As a guy who relies on a converter, I am a big believer in not running your compressor or dust collector off the phase converter..


Erik, will SCM supply wide belts with smaller motors ? You must have a raft of experience with this issue ?

Ditto on the compressor, collector. I just bought a new 7.5 IR compressor in single phase just so I did not have to run the converter to use air.

I am having a 600amp service put in my new shop, but there is no possibility of ever having three phase unless I win the lottery. So I have to run off of a converter. I eventually want a Phase Perfect like Rick has for the machines under 10 hp 3ph, and a circuit for the bigger stuff to run on my 50 hp RPC.

So Ricks question to Eric on HP interests me as well. I do not want to go over 25 hp when I get a wide belt. I don't do any production work so do not need to be in a hurry. I was going to buy a small SCM Sandya machine for my next purchase, but then the bottom dropped out.

Interesting discussion.

Larry

[Erik Loza]

...Erik, will SCM supply wide belts with smaller motors?...

Not to the best of my knowledge, Rick. The thing to keep in mind is that the target market for new widebelts are big commercial shops, where power and air handling are never an issue. I'm sure, for example, that if we offered two choices of motor size on any pro machine, customers would always opt for the more powerful motor and rightfully so.

The difference here is that we have folks who are looking at buying pro machines for their home shops, so we will run into issues such as not enough power, etc. In other words, we have to a do a lot more weighing of what's important, as opposed to a shop who just says, "I want the biggest you've got".

Hope that makes sense,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rick Fisher]

Thanks Eric. .

I was gonna say, don't these machines get sold in Europe with small motor's ?

I know the Felder / ECM machines have motor selections on their websites.. The starting motor is pretty small .. On the double head x 37" .. they offer it with 15hp, 20hp and 25hp ..

[Erik Loza]

Rick, I have an opinion as to why that is but don't want to get into a brand-vs-brand debate in here. PM me if you want to discuss it offline.

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Ira Matheny]

I just found out today that I could get more 480/3ph electricity to my wood shop. A lot more. So my concerns of having to little power have just disapeared.

And, NO. this is not a Fantasy Shop. I am upgrading most of my woodworking tools to higher end production tools. I want to take advantage of the thousands of tools out on the market today that have no homes and very small prices.

Were I forced to bring in a new electrical service, I would be limited. Now, I just find the sky is [nearly] the limit. So I will open talks with a gentleman in Southern CA that has a two headed 37" timesaver.

[J.R. Rutter]

I have the Sandya5 1100 RRCS.

Actually, it is an RCS 1100, oops.
R=drum head, CS=combination head, 1100mm = 43" wide. One feature that I really like and use often is pneumatically activated heads. From the front of the machine, you can select which contact points you want - drum 1, drum 2, platen. So if I have to hog off some material, I just use the first head and leave the second group loaded with fine grit. Vice versa for veneer sanding - just the platen can be used. It also has a timer to activate the platen so that it lowers onto the leading edge of the workpiece and raises at the trailing edge to avoid rounding over the edges.

Here is how to decode SCM sanders from what I remember:
SandyaWIN series is 24" wide capacity.
The Sandya3 (or UNO for the older models) series uses 36" x 60" long belts and is/was available as a CS or RCS.
The Sandya5 series uses 43" x 75" long belts and is/was available as CS or RCS, still with single main motor.
Going up from there in model number (7,10,15,20,30), the machines get more robust with wider and longer belts and individual high HP motors for each head.
The DMC line is even heavier and more sophisticated options like programmable electronic segmented platens for veneer, cross belts, brush heads, orbital heads.

The UNO is probably the most common on the used market.