Engraving guns

[Joe Hillmann]

I just engraved on 6 identical stainless steel guns for a customer with my yag. I put his grand kids names and birthdates on the receivers. Four of the guns ended up with nice dark black lettering, which was a bit of a surprise because when I did a test run the stainless was engraved into. The other two were actually engraved into. They all look nice and since they are all going to different homes they won't be compared to each other but I am trying to figure out why they didn't all react the same way. My guess is two of the guns were made of a slightly different alloy of stainless then the rest. But it seems odd to me that a gun company making fairly high end guns would allow the metal there guns are made of to vary by that much. Anyone have any suggestions at to what may have caused the differences other than the metal?


Edit: The two guns that engraved rather than were marked were the second and last I did and I did them all with the same file, and focus.

[Mike Null]

At the risk of starting a brouhaha and because I am often asked to engrave firearms I am posting the following from the ATF website.


Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?
Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]

I have accepted jobs to engrave the stock or forestock of rifles and shotguns but turn down all jobs having to do with marking metal. That doesn't make it right or wrong--just how I interpret things.

[Joe Hillmann]

Good to know, but (27 CFR 478.11 D) Says

(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

and that is the actual law, what you referenced to was someones' interpretation of the law. I guess when it comes right down to it it depends on what a person takes "regular course of trade" and "occasional" to mean.

[Mike Null]

Joe

What I referenced was from the ATF web site. It was not an interpretation.

I believe you are focusing on what a gunsmith is when I believe the issue is whether or not one is a dealer with a FFL.

[Rich Harman]

I'm not taking a position one way or the other on the legality of engraving a firearm. This does remind me of a runaround I had with the fire chief a couple years ago.

I went to the fire station to get a land clearing burn permit. They specifically told me that I could not burn stumps, even ones that were dug up.

I researched the actual laws and there was nothing that prohibited stump burning for land clearing purposes.

I contacted the person that authored the law and he confirmed that there was never the intention of prohibiting stump burning.

I spoke with the fire chief asking why stump burning was prohibited and he cited a portion of the law that did not really apply. He did not want to listen to anything more.

I spoke with the fellow who inspected and handed out the citations and he didn't want to listen either. He merely said that if the fire dept. said to write a ticket, he would do it. He didn't seem to care if there was an actual citable law that was being broken.

The end result was that I burned the stumps. Getting caught would have meant that I would have had to go to court but I know that I would have won.

[Mike Null]

I was prompted to look at the ATF site after a conversation with a gunsmith/dealer and his remarks were essentially the same as yours. Even so, I decided I'll turn down all future requests.

[Tim Bateson]

I've done a number of guns, mostly receivers. Seems word get around and business keeps flowing - word of mouth, even doing a lot of knives now. I could have a lot more of that business, but I don't consider it my bread and butter. I get a lot of people building guns and they do have strict regulations on the depth of engraving, but marking seems to be unregulated. Many of these gun builders have since told me that when their finished gun was inspected for the needed permits and licensing, there has been no issues with my markings. I deal exclusively with privately owned weapons. Local gun dealers refer a lot clients to me.

[Bruce Volden]

I've done a number of guns, mostly receivers. Seems word get around and business keeps flowing - word of mouth, even doing a lot of knives now. I could have a lot more of that business, but I don't consider it my bread and butter. I get a lot of people building guns and they do have strict regulations on the depth of engraving, but marking seems to be unregulated. Many of these gun builders have since told me that when their finished gun was inspected for the needed permits and licensing, there has been no issues with my markings. I deal exclusively with privately owned weapons. Local gun dealers refer a lot clients to me.

I figger if my local FFL licensed dealer asks me to engrave FOR HIM--I engrave. I have his tax lic. # as he has mine. Been doing it since 1995 and no repercussions to date. Yeah, I'm about ready to take on the gummint!

Bruce

[George Carlson]

Engraving firearms is not a problem unless a transfer is done. When a gunsmith takes in work, he notes the firearm and its serial number in a log. When the customer pickes it up, he updates his log and transfers the firearm back to its owner. If the owner is there while you are doing the work, a transfer is not required, but if he leaves it overnight, then you must have an FFL and it must be treated like a transfer.

[Darryl Hazen]

I agree with George. That is the way it was explained to me by FFL licensed dealer.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

@George - you got it.

@Tim - you're likely seeing what we're seeing here in NC...I do a *lot* of guns. So many so that we did get an FFL (it has it's perks). If you ever have too much business, feel free to send them my way! :)

[Tim Bateson]

... If you ever have too much business, feel free to send them my way! :)

Never too much work. I am surprised by the number of people building their own rifles. These guys are spending $ thousands on parts, permits, licensing, etc... One guy told me he would have to have 3 seperate inspections and approvals, each costing him $$$$. That was even before he had a completed rifle.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Never too much work. I am surprised by the number of people building their own rifles. These guys are spending $ thousands on parts, permits, licensing, etc... One guy told me he would have to have 3 seperate inspections and approvals, each costing him $$$$. That was even before he had a completed rifle.

sounds like a good build.

not to jack the thread, but would you say you do more SBR/trust engravings or cosmetic engravings? just curious...

[Tim Bateson]

... would you say you do more SBR/trust engravings or cosmetic engravings? just curious...

Some trust, but most cosmetic. Also Safe/Fire