Lumber Rack & Engineer Questions

[Adrian Anguiano]

Im building a lumber rack in the next week or 2. I got an idea from a fine woodworking magazine of a guy that used 1/8" thick angle iron placed in a 1/8" kerf on the 4x4. The angle iron is then bolted onto the wood. and the 4x4's are bolted onto the wall studs. Heres a tiny picture for an example.

My question is how long should i make the rails? That is the length past the 4x4 (usable space)? If I had one of every stud for 8ft. How much weight do you think it would take?

I have my walls down right now, and have a question for you engineers too. My studs that I will attach these 4x4's to are single 2x4 studs. While I have the walls down I was planning on beefing up some of the studs. Is it better to make all these studs double( aka nailing an extra 2x4 to the existing one), or is it better to keep them single except for 2 studs, and make them 4 2x4's wide? Any difference in support?


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[Eric DeSilva]

The amount the arms will support will depend upon the size of the angle iron (actually steel) you use--angle comes in lots of sizes, including 1/2", 1", 1.5", 2" etc. If he is supporting it in part using a kerf in a 4x4, I'm guessing he used 1.5" or 2" angle. That would hold a considerable amount.

Since the design is cantilevered, the forces on the wall studs are going to be acting to pull the 4x4 off the wall--away from the wall. I would think you would get better mileage by beefing up how the 2x4 is attached to the top plate rather than by adding more 2x4s to the wall. Is there a reason why the design has to be cantilevered? It will make it easier, obviously, to pull pieces out, but plenty of hardwood places I go use bins that require pulling the lumber out the long way. If you built a frame, then the attachment to the 2x4s just prevents the structure from moving and requires virtually no structural integrity.

[Adrian Anguiano]

The amount the arms will support will depend upon the size of the angle iron (actually steel) you use--angle comes in lots of sizes, including 1/2", 1", 1.5", 2" etc. If he is supporting it in part using a kerf in a 4x4, I'm guessing he used 1.5" or 2" angle. That would hold a considerable amount.

I was planning on using 1.5" Angle Iron 1/8" Thick.


Since the design is cantilevered, the forces on the wall studs are going to be acting to pull the 4x4 off the wall--away from the wall. I would think you would get better mileage by beefing up how the 2x4 is attached to the top plate rather than by adding more 2x4s to the wall. Is there a reason why the design has to be cantilevered? It will make it easier, obviously, to pull pieces out, but plenty of hardwood places I go use bins that require pulling the lumber out the long way. If you built a frame, then the attachment to the 2x4s just prevents the structure from moving and requires virtually no structural integrity.

Not sure I understand what you're depicting. Can you make a simple diagram?? I was going to make the racks only start at 4ft high to the top of my 8ft ceiling. That way I could have a jointer, miter saw, or plywood underneath.

As far as the angle iron which is better. Galvanized Iron, or non galvanized that I spray paint myself?

[Eric DeSilva]

Your rack design has "arms" that come out roughly perpendicular to the wall. Those arms aren't supported on the other (non-wall) end, which means they cantilever off the wall. What I was suggesting is a design where, instead of unsupported arms coming off the wall, you have a series of 4x4s in the room to which the end of the arm attaches--thus supporting the arm on both ends. What that means is that all of the weight is directed straight down on the 4x4s, instead of acting as a lever trying to pull the 4x4 off the wall. I can't do a diagram here, but think of your design as a backwards, upside down "L"--I'm talking about building an "H" instead. You wouldn't need one for every stud--if you were building it using "H"s, you could probably build one every 4'--just three of them for an 8' span.

The downside to an "H" design is that you can't pull a board out of the rack from the side--you'd have to pull it out of the rack from the end. But it would be easier to build, stronger, and less likely to pull the studs out of your wall. Then again, I tend to overengineer things.

[Adrian Anguiano]

Ahh gotya... sounds like the only problem with that is I couldnt have something underneath the lumber rack like a miter saw station

[Greg Portland]

Im building a lumber rack in the next week or 2. I got an idea from a fine woodworking magazine of a guy that used 1/8" thick angle iron placed in a 1/8" kerf on the 4x4. The angle iron is then bolted onto the wood. and the 4x4's are bolted onto the wall studs. Heres a tiny picture for an example.

My question is how long should i make the rails? That is the length past the 4x4 (usable space)? If I had one of every stud for 8ft. How much weight do you think it would take?

I have my walls down right now, and have a question for you engineers too. My studs that I will attach these 4x4's to are single 2x4 studs. While I have the walls down I was planning on beefing up some of the studs. Is it better to make all these studs double( aka nailing an extra 2x4 to the existing one), or is it better to keep them single except for 2 studs, and make them 4 2x4's wide? Any difference in support?


238180
It's hard to see the attachment mechanism from the (small) picture. A lot of folks have had success using 3/4" pipe as their arms instead of angle iron. Simply drill the hole into the 4x4 at a slight angle (to account for weight loading / sag) for the pipe. I would not go past 18" of protrusion; my metal rack uses a combination of 12" and 18" arms. One other tip is to have the 4x4 touch the floor; that puts most of the weight onto the floor and NOT the studs. My posts are lagged into single studs using this method.

[Van Huskey]

Can you tie into the joist above? If so you could negate most of the pulling force on the studs.

[Alan Bienlein]

I just built me a lumber rack back in march out of 2 x 4's and 3/4" conduit. I drilled the holes for the conduit at a 5 degree upward angle to a depth of 3". I did a test to find out how strong it was and one length of 3/4" emt cut 24" long sticking in the 5 degree hole 3" deep would support a 5 gallon bucket on the end of the pipe with an 80 lb bag of sacrete in it.

I decided that 20" was the optimum length for the width board I was going to store on it.
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[Adrian Anguiano]

Can you tie into the joist above? If so you could negate most of the pulling force on the studs.

I could attach a 4x4 horizontally at the top of the wall, and screw it up to the joists, and into the wall's top plate. That will encompass both of your suggestions. But attaching the verticle 4x4 to that 4x4.... hmmm... Toenailed Lagbolts? screws?

[Adrian Anguiano]

I just built me a lumber rack back in march out of 2 x 4's and 3/4" conduit. I drilled the holes for the conduit at a 5 degree upward angle to a depth of 3". I did a test to find out how strong it was and one length of 3/4" emt cut 24" long sticking in the 5 degree hole 3" deep would support a 5 gallon bucket on the end of the pipe with an 80 lb bag of sacrete in it.

I decided that 20" was the optimum length for the width board I was going to store on it.



Im shocked you used EMT.. i was under the impression that stuff wasnt strong at all.

And using pipe just sounds way too expensive.

[John TenEyck]

Definitely tie your vertical supports to the floor joists. Bolts or lag bolts will work fine; 5/16" diameter is more than enough. The only attachment you need at the bottom is to keep the vertical from shifting side to side, not for structural reasons. If you can find some old metal bed frames or old 3/4" or 1" diameter black iron or galvanized pipe you will have all your horizontal supports for free or nearly free. Or you could just use 2 x 4's, which is how I made my cantileverd racks. The load capacity is dependent upon the cross sectional area of the arms x their length. I have some that are about 18" long, spaced about 2' apart. Those racks are about 8 feet long, meaning there are 4 supports, and they probably have 300 lbs on each shelf. I would think 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/8" angle iron or 3/4" black iron pipe would give you similar load capacity, probably even more.

John

[Alan Bienlein]

Im shocked you used EMT.. i was under the impression that stuff wasnt strong at all.

And using pipe just sounds way too expensive.

Thats why I did a mockup of what I wanted to build to test it.

I guess I should also note that my vertical spacing between pipes is 5". The thickness of the conduit only eats up the space for about one 4/4 thick board.

[Adrian Anguiano]

If you can find some old 3/4" or 1" diameter black iron or galvanized pipe you will have all your horizontal supports for free or nearly free. Or you could just use 2 x 4's, which is how I made my cantileverd racks.

My whole reason for this design was because its cheaper than going on a hunt for pipe, and thinner than using wood, so I dont lose much carrying space due to the height of the brackets. Ill only lose 1.5" with angle iron.

[Van Huskey]

I could attach a 4x4 horizontally at the top of the wall, and screw it up to the joists, and into the wall's top plate. That will encompass both of your suggestions. But attaching the verticle 4x4 to that 4x4.... hmmm... Toenailed Lagbolts? screws?

In that case I would just use a 2x4 but I would butt it up to the 4x4s and not even attach it, they will be held in place by the studs and the added 2x4 just keeps them from pulling away from the wall at the top.

[Bruce Page]

I don’t have the space to keep a lot of excess wood on hand so I built this small lumber rack to accommodate my needs. It consists of 1X4’s lag bolted through the sheet rock into the 2X4 studs. The heavy duty brackets are lag bolted through the 1X4 into the studs. The lumber in the pic is 95% white oak & cherry so it is quite heavy. I did show my design to a civil engineer friend before building and he didn’t have any concerns about the load.

[Larry Frank]

I built a bunch of shelving in my garage and shop for wood storage. I looked at all kinds of designs and what other have done. I was just not completely satisfied that the home built systems would be strong enough. I ended up using the Fast Mount System by John Sterling which is a galvanized steel adjustable shelves. The stated weight load capacity is very high and they have worked very well. They only thing that I did was to add upside down u-shaped wooden pieces on the brackets to keep the wood from touching and possibly staining the wood.

I bought mine at a Menards when they had one of their 11% off everything sales. They are also available at many other places.

[Jim Neeley]

Adrian,

Even if you start the shelves at 4' high, I recommend you extend the vertical piece to the floor. This will transfer the weight of the wood directly to the floor rather than through the studs. Then lag bolt or use a nut, bolt and washers to hold the verticals to the studs. This will reduce the bolt load to keeping it from "falling over" rather than also supporting the wood.

Jim

[Joe Jensen]

I did something similar but I used thin wall conduit instead. I drilled holes in the 4 by 4s at a slight angle (like 5 degrees from 90) which is what the design I followed suggested. Mine is crazy strong. I picked the conduit that measured 1 3/4" outside diameter and my bars are 20.5" beyond the edge of the 4 by 4. I also found plastic caps to pop in the ends. I had to buy like 200 caps so I have lots of extras. My rack is like 12 ft long and there is A LOT of material on it.

I believe the round profile bars are stronger than the angle iron approach unless you can be sure the angle irons won't twist. I weight 235 lbs and when I was testing this approach I jumped up and down on one bar and it never moved. I suspect the conduit is cheaper too, but I didn't price angle.

Here are some iPhone pics.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Shop%20photos/IMG_04031.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Shop%20photos/woodrack2.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Shop%20photos/woodrack1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Shop%20photos/WoodRackSide.jpg

[Adrian Anguiano]

EMT scares me. Its thin walled, and is made so it will bend easily. If I go the tube route I will just buy 3/4" 11 gauge pipe or tube

[Carl Beckett]

I don’t have the space to keep a lot of excess wood on hand so I built this small lumber rack to accommodate my needs. It consists of 1X4’s lag bolted through the sheet rock into the 2X4 studs. The heavy duty brackets are lag bolted through the 1X4 into the studs. The lumber in the pic is 95% white oak & cherry so it is quite heavy. I did show my design to a civil engineer friend before building and he didn’t have any concerns about the load.

Mostly I am impressed by how organized, clean, and neat your shop is Bruce.....

(oh, and the lumber storage works great also!)

[Bruce Page]

Mostly I am impressed by how organized, clean, and neat your shop is Bruce.....

(oh, and the lumber storage works great also!)

Thanks Carl. That’s an old pic, it doesn’t look like that today.:o I have a stack of rough 5/4 cherry sitting in front of the garage door and I replaced the Delta drum sander with a larger Woodmaster DS so it’s a little more crowded.:rolleyes:

[Matt McColley]

The cantilever on the angle iron is imparting a moment to the 4x4s... this is being resisted by two things...

1.) is lagging the 4x4s to the wall studs... but now you need to ask yourself, what's holding the wall studs in place.... through nails or toe nails at the plate and the resistance to pull out from the nails secruing the exterior plywood sheathing.
&
2.) the cleat that is attached to the joists in the ceiling is giving this design a lot of strength.

I kind of like the design, as long as you can get the angle iron at a reasonable price. I would double up each stud that has a 4x4 lagged into it.... and add some add'l toe nails...

When attaching the 4x4's ... I would ue 5/16" x 6" lags and drill a clearance hole in the 4x4 and I would NOT pilot hole the studs.... I would also put most of my lags at the top 1/2 of the stud with only a couple at the bottom.

And I would make sure that I put the cleat at the top with at least 2 deck screws at each joist it crosses. If the ceiling is strapped parallel to the rack wall.... use more screws space every 8" or so into the corner stapping and then add a deck screw to the strapping at every Joist.

Make sure you at least prime the angle iron... or the first time you put a red oak board on it, you'll discover what tanic acid is all about.

[Adrian Anguiano]

Im thinking of maybe going with this http://www.discountsteel.com/items/Galvanized_Steel_Pipe.cfm?item_id=172&size_no=5&pieceLength=full&sku_no=23&len_ft=0&len_in=0&len_fraction=0&itemComments=&qty=1

3/4" pipe thats galvanized, and schedule 40 thickness. Im guessing i wouldnt even need to paint it or worry about contamination with wood with it being galvanized. And i can probably turn some kind of wooden cap to hammer into the ends.

what yall think?

[Matt McColley]

I thik you'll be O.K. going with galvanized pipe....

you can buy 3/4" pipe in 10' sections at HD around here for ~$16/ea.

I think you're going to rack up a healthy shipping bill ordering it on line.

[Adrian Anguiano]

That online site is just down the street from me. I didnt know HD had it that cheap. Ill check em out.


Sooo... whats the best way to drill a 1" hole at a 5% angle consistently in the exact same spot on every board??? When the board is at an angle you cant put the center of a drill bit or forstner on the exact mark. And im thinking its probably pretty critcal on the 6 4x4 verticle supports I will use; that way the wood is supported by every pipe.

[Michael W. Clark]

Sooo... whats the best way to drill a 1" hole at a 5% angle consistently in the exact same spot on every board??? When the board is at an angle you cant put the center of a drill bit or forstner on the exact mark. And im thinking its probably pretty critcal on the 6 4x4 verticle supports I will use; that way the wood is supported by every pipe.

I would make a jig at the drill press to act as a guide that could be clamped onto the uprights. Layout your holes off of a common point on the jig. It could be as simple as a 2x4 block with 1" hole in it at 5 degrees. Attach side pieces to the block to center it on the 4x4 and layout your distances off the front, square edge of the block taking into account its distance from the center of the hole. The 5 degree angle is not critical, just that it slopes up some and that it is consistent. I imagine 4 or 6 degrees would also work as long as it is consistent from hole to hole. That being said, you could probably drill it with a hand drill at the bench.

Hopefully your ceiling joists run perpendicular to the rack. If so, lag the 4x4s to the wall, then install a 2x4 cleat in front of them flat to the ceiling (as shown in your pic). Attach the cleat to each joist with two screws. This will take some of the load off the wall studs and transfer it to the ceiling joists as the rack is loaded. Make sure the 2x4 is tight to the 4x4s at the top.

Mike

[Mike OMelia]

Simply drill the hole into the 4x4 at a slight angle (to account for weight loading / sag) for the pipe.

I was wondering what bothered me about the design... then I saw your post. I was thinking the bars should tilt up a bit as well. Still, the angle iron in slot will be affected by side forces... the pipe is a better idea.

[Adrian Anguiano]

So if I have a 16" pipe, 3" into a 4x4 is enough?

It just seems like that puts a ton of pressure on those 3 inches and the pipe would bend or start to crush.

Am I wrong?

[Alan Bienlein]

It will be fine. Remember your going with way thicker pipe than what I went with and mine has 17" sticking out from the doubled up 2 x 4's that I used.

[Adrian Anguiano]

Thanks for the help everyone. Here are the details for others interested.

4x4 Douglas Fir - 8ft long; $10 x 6 qty = $60
3/4" galvanized pipe 10ft long; $17 x 6 qty = $102
1/4" x 6" Spax Screws; $.59 x 36 = $21
26mm Drill bit; $13
Total with Tax: $212

Notes: 3/4" pipe has an outside diameter of 1.05. 1" bit was way to tight, and 1 & 1/8 was way too lose. So I had to buy a 26mm aka 1.02. It was still tight and hammering it was tiring, so a sledge hammer put them in quick, strong, and tight.

I was planning on putting plywood underneath, but i started hammering a way and realized i put the pipe too low. I saw holes so i hammered the pipe in, I forgot i just put those holes for future needs.

All holes were drilled with a 4% tilt on drill press.

Take note if your ceiling isnt level. Mine wasnt due to the garage floor having a slight tilt. I didnt plan correctly so in a few spots I had to use a jack to push up the 4x4's to keep all the racks level.

I wish I would of had those fuzzy microphone covers on my pipes, cause i banged my head and my teeth a few times.

Would I use this method again??? If I had tons of lumber and lots of weight. then yes. If just a modest amount of lumber... No. It cost a lot more than I thought it would, and the expensive heavy duty shelving systems from Lee Valley, looked pricey, but now after building my own they dont seem as pricey, and are easier to reconfigure and reuse.

This is my thoughts after 1 day. my opinion is subject to change in time. But I need to move on to other storage projects to put my garage back together again.

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[Alan Bienlein]

Looks great!

For mine I bought a cheap spade bit and ground it down till the emt fit snug in the hole. For future reference a 1-1/16" spade bit would have been perfect for you as it would measure 1.062".

If I remember correctly I spent a total of $75 for everything I needed to build mine including the spade bit. The other lumber racks available commercially from places like Lee Valley would have cost me about $500.

[Adrian Anguiano]

For mine I bought a cheap spade bit and ground it down till the emt fit snug in the hole. For future reference a 1-1/16" spade bit would have been perfect for you as it would measure 1.062".

I checked Lowes, Home Depot, and Sears... and I couldnt find a 1-1/16" bit. Only 1-1/8th". So that lead me to woodcraft. They had a 1-1/16" forstner bit for 8 bucks, or 13 bucks for the 26mm german Colt Brand Twist Drill Bit on clearance. Ive never seen a big bit like that before, so i had to try it. And it was sweeeeet.

I may have overbuilt it using 4x4 and 3/4" pipe... but it helps me sleep better at night... Not that im sleeping under it or anything. :)

[Matt Day]

I think EMT is a lot stronger than you might think. There are a couple other plans out there that simply use 2x material for the whole rack, rather than angle iron which can get expensive if you're buying from the home centers.

[John Lifer]

Looks great, but way over engineered. As others have stated emt would have sufficed and cut your pipe cost to about $20, and I'd have used 2x4 at $2.50 or so and saved a bunch more. Even doubling them would have been half the cost.
Could have built for less than a Benjamin.
But you don't have to worry about it falling. And I'll second the grinding down a spade bit for an exact hole. Done it several times.. Just have to be careful and mark it as reduced before you grab it later.

And YES I'm a cheap son of a gun:)