Newbie, making a bunch of flooring

[Phil Landwer]

I've got a guy that wants to buy alot of flooring from me. Red oak.
Minimum of 2' lengths, and 4" wide, or wider....sorted by width and grade, in 1" intervals,
No rush on this, and I have all the red oak in stock, in random lengths and widths and grades.
The best part is....I got all this rough red oak, for free.

For tools, I have a Woodmaster planer, a 12" table saw with Magic Moulder and special flooring tongue/groove plugs, Radial arm, 2 stock feeders, and a Festool circular saw. Amount of sawdust and chips is no issue.

Here's my production plan.

1. Grab a board.
2. Inspect it, and determine what grade I'll get out of it.
3. Using the radial arm and circular saw, I'll cut out the major defects.
3. Straight line rip one edge (many ways to do this. Not concerned).
4. Put a tape on the board, and see the widest plank I can get from this board.
5. Rip to final width.
6. Plane to 3/4" thickness.
7. Place board on proper stack of blanks, waiting for tongue and groove.
7. Go back to step 1, until I'm tired.

When I'm untired:

a) Put Magic Moulder (MM) hub on table saw.
b) Load tongue plug.
c) With stock feeder in place, start feeding boards through table saw, cutting tongue.
d) Repeat step c, until I feel like cutting grooves.
e) Load groove plug into MM.
f) Cut grooves.

Since I'm cutting various widths from my rough stock, it seems this will keep waste to a minimum. Since my client wants flooring 4" and wider, I'll still process narrower boards efficiently, but set them aside for other clients. This should get maximum usage out of my boards.

Ok. That's the plan. Now, my questions...

Step (5) has me a little concerned. Remember, I'm making a stack of 5" wide boards, 6" wide, 7", etc. If I rip a board to 6" today, and then rip some more tomorrow to 6", my table saw fence needs to be dead on the mark, each time, right? I mean, if my table saw fence is off just a tiny, tiny bit, and a board is a tiny bit over or under from the rest, that will leave a gap in the floor, right? Am I close enough by just taking a board from yesterday, and laying it against my blade, and then bring my fence over to touch the board? Is that a simple enough way to keep my boards the same width? Is that accurate enough?

And, the final width of the plank is also determined by step (c) and (e), so it would seem. If I lift my MM, with the groove plug, just a tiny fraction of an inch higher today, than I did yesterday, I'll end of with planks ever-so-slightly narrower today, thus affecting installation. The groove will be the same depth, but the MM will cut away at the board width a tiny bit. Same with the tongue side, I would assume. Do I need to use a dial gauge calipers, to get my MM the same height each time?

Thanks gang.
-Phil

[Ed Hazel]

For ripping make some quages that fit in your t slot and you can slide your fence up to it, kind of like an L laid down
make easy fast set up no measuring needed.

[Peter Quinn]

Shaper. Shaper. Shaper. The best tool for this is a........shaper. Its not that you can't work this out on a TS, but it will be a major PIA. I would sort ALL of the lumber up front. Start by hit and miss planing the rough stock so you can clearly and quickly read the grain, sort the boards into each size, straight line ALL of it. Then start by ripping the widest material. If a rip doesn't make the size you thought, put it in the next stack. ETC. Using a shaper with an indexed back fence eliminates ALL error, and the installer will thank you for that. If this is not possible, definitely get a good set of dial calipers, make set up blocks like Ed describes. Make a stout tall fence for the TS. And get a shaper......:).

[Scott T Smith]

Phil, your sequence is wrong.

Peter hit the nail on the head 100% with his recommendations, especially the part about skip joint/planing first. Sort coming out of the jointing/planing process.

The only thing that I would add to his advice is to set aside any boards that have a crook in them, and cut them down into shorter lengths before SLR and ripping to width.

[John TenEyck]

I agree that a shaper would be best, but if you don't have one a router would do an equally good job albeit a little slower. Also, you mentioned planing the wood to thickness but I saw no mention of jointing one face flat first. Unless your stock is already flat you will need to joint it flat on one face first. And how are you going to sand out those planer marks? Can you sand with your Woodmaster? Hope so.

John

[Phil Landwer]

Excellent.
Thanks.

[Phil Landwer]

Shaper. Shaper. Shaper. The best tool for this is a........shaper. Its not that you can't work this out on a TS, but it will be a major PIA. I would sort ALL of the lumber up front. Start by hit and miss planing the rough stock so you can clearly and quickly read the grain, sort the boards into each size, straight line ALL of it. Then start by ripping the widest material. If a rip doesn't make the size you thought, put it in the next stack. ETC. Using a shaper with an indexed back fence eliminates ALL error, and the installer will thank you for that. If this is not possible, definitely get a good set of dial calipers, make set up blocks like Ed describes. Make a stout tall fence for the TS. And get a shaper......:).

Thanks, Peter.
Maybe I can afford a shaper after I make a bit, this way...

[Phil Landwer]

I agree that a shaper would be best, but if you don't have one a router would do an equally good job albeit a little slower. Also, you mentioned planing the wood to thickness but I saw no mention of jointing one face flat first. Unless your stock is already flat you will need to joint it flat on one face first. And how are you going to sand out those planer marks? Can you sand with your Woodmaster? Hope so.

John

Router? Why use a router, when I have the Magic Moulder with a stock feeder?
My planer has a helical head. Do I really need to sand this stock, before delivering? I thought the installer will sand it, once installed, before applying a finish.

[Phil Landwer]

Also, I didn't mention the relief cuts on the bottom of the flooring.
I plan on also doing that, with the MM, and different plugs.

[Scott T Smith]

Phil, you're going to have a LOT of labor time involved in making this flooring; I hope that it works out for you financially.

[Carl Beckett]

Hi Phil,

There was a pretty extensive thread here a while back from someone that did a large batch of white oak flooring. Everything was broke down, including cost and time for each step. I dont remember who it was or would point you to the post, but maybe try a search or someone here will likely remember.

I found the thread very knowledgeable and I learned a lot, as Im sure I will following your experiences as well. (if you were closer I have a couple shapers I would just loan you to use)

[Van Huskey]

Hi Phil,

There was a pretty extensive thread here a while back from someone that did a large batch of white oak flooring. Everything was broke down, including cost and time for each step. I dont remember who it was or would point you to the post, but maybe try a search or someone here will likely remember.
)


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?143805-Large-flooring-project-please-review-profitability-for-me&highlight=

I think this is it

[Peter Quinn]

Take a close look at the edges of a commercial t&g floor board. This is not a glue joint, there is more geometry going on there. You want to take a full jointing cut on the edges when you make floor boards, one side typically has a slight back bevel below the wear layer and a slight reveal below the tongue slot. This leaves very little bearing surface on the boards edge. With a TS it's a tricky set up, you need to have very straight lumber very precisely milled and take off a precise amount on each side, gravity will not be in your favor. You need good in/out feed support. With a shaper it is easy to edge and precisely dimension in two operations. This is why I recommend you have the whole job planed, sorted, straigh lined, and organized before you tie up your TS with the molder head. Can you do the reliefs on the wood master? Well worth a set of knives iMo.

[Phil Landwer]

Phil, you're going to have a LOT of labor time involved in making this flooring; I hope that it works out for you financially.

Im retired, plus I have lots of cheap family labor, so I'm all good there....

[Phil Landwer]

Hi Phil,

There was a pretty extensive thread here a while back from someone that did a large batch of white oak flooring. Everything was broke down, including cost and time for each step. I dont remember who it was or would point you to the post, but maybe try a search or someone here will likely remember.

I found the thread very knowledgeable and I learned a lot, as Im sure I will following your experiences as well. (if you were closer I have a couple shapers I would just loan you to use)


I do have access to a Shop Fox W1812 moulder. Any way that could help me? I suppose I could feed my boards thru that, on edge, but the Magic Moulder is indeed pretty nice....

[Phil Landwer]

Take a close look at the edges of a commercial t&g floor board. This is not a glue joint, there is more geometry going on there. You want to take a full jointing cut on the edges when you make floor boards, one side typically has a slight back bevel below the wear layer and a slight reveal below the tongue slot. This leaves very little bearing surface on the boards edge. With a TS it's a tricky set up, you need to have very straight lumber very precisely milled and take off a precise amount on each side, gravity will not be in your favor. You need good in/out feed support. With a shaper it is easy to edge and precisely dimension in two operations. This is why I recommend you have the whole job planed, sorted, straigh lined, and organized before you tie up your TS with the molder head. Can you do the reliefs on the wood master? Well worth a set of knives iMo.

Good idea.
ill either use the wood master or that Fox Shop 1812 for the back cuts.

[Brodie Brickey]

This stuff is going to have to be jointed and surfaced on day 1 and stickered. Re-surfaced on day 2 to final dimensions or things will move.

Do you have enough space in your facility for two stacks (1st day's work, 2nd day's finished dimension)?

[Phil Landwer]

This stuff is going to have to be jointed and surfaced on day 1 and stickered. Re-surfaced on day 2 to final dimensions or things will move.

Do you have enough space in your facility for two stacks (1st day's work, 2nd day's finished dimension)?

Ok, will do....
If I dead-stack outside on my driveway, off the ground, and cover all well with plastic, will I be ok if it rained one day?

[Peter Kelly]

How many square feet of flooring? You'll want to factor in an extra 10-15% of material for waste. Also, I'd make sure that you've got some spare sets of flooring profile knives for the Magic Moulder. LRH has been out of business for a while now...

[Phil Landwer]

How many square feet of flooring? You'll want to factor in an extra 10-15% of material for waste. Also, I'd make sure that you've got some spare sets of flooring profile knives for the Magic Moulder. LRH has been out of business for a while now...

All I can cut.
i have access to several sets of those plugs.
Thanks, Peter.

[John TenEyck]

Router? Why use a router, when I have the Magic Moulder with a stock feeder?
My planer has a helical head. Do I really need to sand this stock, before delivering? I thought the installer will sand it, once installed, before applying a finish.

Why a router? Because the stock will be flat on the table and easy to present to the cutters, just like with the shaper. On your TS the stock will be on edge which makes it a lot harder to support. I think you would also fiind setup to be easier on either the shaper or router compared to a TS. However you decide to do the T&G truly flat stock of constant thickness and no crook is the key to success.

If the installer is going to sand it after installation then you don't need to do anything after the planer. But I don't think this is common practice with a new floor, so I recommend you find out what the installers expectations are for the material. If his expectation is product ready to finish then you will have to figure out how to add that process to the list of machining operations. A drum sander would be the weapon of choice.

John

[Scott T Smith]

Ok, will do....
If I dead-stack outside on my driveway, off the ground, and cover all well with plastic, will I be ok if it rained one day?


Phil, that would not be a good idea. The wood will pick up moisture from the relative humidity, and then shrink after it is installed - leaving gaps between the boards.

Personally, for flooring I would joint and plane on the same day, and do the best that I could to remove the same amount of material from both sides of the board. it will be sanded after installation, so any minor movement will be addressed then.

[Greg Portland]

How much flooring are you trying to produce? That will greatly affect any method of work or equipment recommendations.

The Magic Moulder does a very good job; I'm not sure you're going to see major improvements with a shaper (given the small size of the edge profile). IMO, a power feeder for your table saw + jig & magic moulder head is going to get you most of that "shaper goodness". If you're doing 10,000+ sq.ft. like in the other thread then follow the suggestions outlined there...

[Phil Landwer]

How much flooring are you trying to produce? That will greatly affect any method of work or equipment recommendations.

The Magic Moulder does a very good job; I'm not sure you're going to see major improvements with a shaper (given the small size of the edge profile). IMO, a power feeder for your table saw + jig & magic moulder head is going to get you most of that "shaper goodness". If you're doing 10,000+ sq.ft. like in the other thread then follow the suggestions outlined there...

Im thinking the same thing, Greg.
make me a tall fence, and I'm set with my Grizzly power feeder.
i can use my dial gauge to make sure I raise the MM the same height each time.

[Peter Quinn]

If you have an 1812 molder that is the clear choice for reliefs. I've done them on one and it works well.

[Phil Landwer]

If you have an 1812 molder that is the clear choice for reliefs. I've done them on one and it works well.

But, not for putting the boards on edge, to do the T&G ?

[Phil Landwer]

If you have an 1812 molder that is the clear choice for reliefs. I've done them on one and it works well.

And, at which step should I cut the back reliefs?

[Jeff Duncan]

What may be the biggest advantage of the shaper, (or even a router table), is you can easily set up so your taking off the profile plus a little....say 1/32". This is important so that you have a perfect and clean edge for your boards. Running over the tablesaw doesn't allow you to do this easily and may not give quite as clean a cut?

The second advantage is that you can do a finish profile and size the stock simultaneously. This makes your work cleaner and much faster.

Also as another poster mentioned make sure you have flooring tongue and groove cutters and not the glue joint style. If you use the wrong cutters your client is not going to be a happy camper;)

I think you can do this job on a table saw, though it is an awkward setup that is going to require a lot of additional steps and time to setup. That being said you have to use what you have, and since your not trying to support yourself with it.....go for it:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I'd do the reliefs last, after running the tongues. But I suppose you could do them whenever you like if you set up for it. The knives should be made so you land on a solid piece of stock, not a 1/2 relief, at each edge. A hussey clone lets you get up to 7" flooring, might as well make the knives the maximum length if you are doing 6". I suppose you could do flooring standing up on the 1812 with proper stock support but any bow or twist would cause it to bind up. You only have the top of the tongue as a bearing surface for the feed wheels, the flooring would quickly wear a groove in those standing on edge.

[bill tindall]

There is no way that you will make flooring to the precision that it needs to be made with your equipment, to say nothing about how slow it will be relative to someone making flooring with a molding machine. If you want to convert your lumber, presuming it is KD to the proper specifications, take it to a shop with a molding machine where it can be converted cheaply, precisely and quickly.

Should you proceed in spite of the above advice have an experienced floor installer try some of your product before you convert too many bdft to this project.

[David Nelson1]

Phil, that would not be a good idea. The wood will pick up moisture from the relative humidity, and then shrink after it is installed - leaving gaps between the boards.

Personally, for flooring I would joint and plane on the same day, and do the best that I could to remove the same amount of material from both sides of the board. it will be sanded after installation, so any minor movement will be addressed then.

1+ for doing it all @ once making sure you plane both sides as close as possible. I didn't sticker the wood after it was planed I just stacked it. I did take a chance on the movement but I followed Scotts advise and everything worked out ok.

[Stephen Cherry]

There is no way

Sure there are plenty of ways.

[Phil Landwer]

Why a router? Because the stock will be flat on the table and easy to present to the cutters, just like with the shaper. On your TS the stock will be on edge which makes it a lot harder to support. I think you would also fiind setup to be easier on either the shaper or router compared to a TS. However you decide to do the T&G truly flat stock of constant thickness and no crook is the key to success.

If the installer is going to sand it after installation then you don't need to do anything after the planer. But I don't think this is common practice with a new floor, so I recommend you find out what the installers expectations are for the material. If his expectation is product ready to finish then you will have to figure out how to add that process to the list of machining operations. A drum sander would be the weapon of choice.

John

I do have a wide belt sander at my disposal.
sounds like it may be good practice to make a final pass thru it.....

[Phil Landwer]

What may be the biggest advantage of the shaper, (or even a router table), is you can easily set up so your taking off the profile plus a little....say 1/32". This is important so that you have a perfect and clean edge for your boards. Running over the tablesaw doesn't allow you to do this easily and may not give quite as clean a cut?

The second advantage is that you can do a finish profile and size the stock simultaneously. This makes your work cleaner and much faster.

Also as another poster mentioned make sure you have flooring tongue and groove cutters and not the glue joint style. If you use the wrong cutters your client is not going to be a happy camper;)

I think you can do this job on a table saw, though it is an awkward setup that is going to require a lot of additional steps and time to setup. That being said you have to use what you have, and since your not trying to support yourself with it.....go for it:D

good luck,
JeffD
Using a dial gauge, I can easily raise The magic molder 1/1000" to remove exactly what I want. The finish is perfect.

I understand I cn profile and size the stock at the same time on a shaper, but can I on a router?

[Phil Landwer]

There is no way that you will make flooring to the precision that it needs to be made with your equipment, to say nothing about how slow it will be relative to someone making flooring with a molding machine. If you want to convert your lumber, presuming it is KD to the proper specifications, take it to a shop with a molding machine where it can be converted cheaply, precisely and quickly.

Should you proceed in spite of the above advice have an experienced floor installer try some of your product before you convert too many bdft to this project.

We will see....
and I think you mean "shaper" not molder. Not trying to be flippant.....just learning.

[Peter Quinn]

No Phil, he meant molder. Most flooring made commercially is done on a 5 head through molder. Some have more heads too. That's essentially a jointer, planer, mollding head and two shapers in one large machine that all reference off a central table. You shove in a blank that is over sized in each dimension and out comes a floor board, or what ever molding you have set up for at the time. Yes, you get a smooth face, reliefs, precise tongue and groove, all at around 40LF/ minute. That's who you are competing against. Ever heard the story of John Hennery?

[Peter Kelly]

Sure there are plenty of ways.

Indeed. The flooring in my parent's house was made with hand tools. Still there after 275 years. Still looks good too.

[Jeff Duncan]

Using a dial gauge, I can easily raise The magic molder 1/1000" to remove exactly what I want. The finish is perfect.

I understand I cn profile and size the stock at the same time on a shaper, but can I on a router?

What kind of tablesaw are you running that your confident in keeping to .001? FWIW that's hard to maintain on high end industrial equipment! The good news is with flooring, (real flooring cutters that is), there's a fair amount of fudge factor so you don't need to maintain .001;)

Yes you can make the same type of cuts with a router table depending on what cutters you have. You basically remove any bearing and run so that you remove....say 1/32" or so with the profile.

Yes as Peter said flooring is run through molders. It would blow your mind if you saw how quickly flooring flies through a molder. What your going to do in at least 4 steps and likely several more, will all be done in one pass through a molder. I truly believe there is no money to be made competing with flooring manufacturers. However in your case where profit is not the concern....you can certainly get it done:)

good luck,
JeffD

[Phil Landwer]

No Phil, he meant molder. Most flooring made commercially is done on a 5 head through molder. Some have more heads too. That's essentially a jointer, planer, mollding head and two shapers in one large machine that all reference off a central table. You shove in a blank that is over sized in each dimension and out comes a floor board, or what ever molding you have set up for at the time. Yes, you get a smooth face, reliefs, precise tongue and groove, all at around 40LF/ minute. That's who you are competing against. Ever heard the story of John Hennery?

So, I'm competing with folks that have to pay off a 6 figure machine, as well as pay for a place to house it, and upkeep it.
i have no problem competing against that.....

[Phil Landwer]

What kind of tablesaw are you running that your confident in keeping to .001? FWIW that's hard to maintain on high end industrial equipment! The good news is with flooring, (real flooring cutters that is), there's a fair amount of fudge factor so you don't need to maintain .001;)

Yes you can make the same type of cuts with a router table depending on what cutters you have. You basically remove any bearing and run so that you remove....say 1/32" or so with the profile.

Yes as Peter said flooring is run through molders. It would blow your mind if you saw how quickly flooring flies through a molder. What your going to do in at least 4 steps and likely several more, will all be done in one pass through a molder. I truly believe there is no money to be made competing with flooring manufacturers. However in your case where profit is not the concern....you can certainly get it done:)

good luck,
JeffD
The question of profitability, seems to all depend on my labor rate.
and my helpers are dirt cheap in this economy.
are flooring mfg's making 5,6, and 7" wide planks?

[Peter Quinn]

The question of profitability, seems to all depend on my labor rate.
and my helpers are dirt cheap in this economy.
are flooring mfg's making 5,6, and 7" wide planks?


Yeah, they make small stuff like that, and they make big stuff too. :D The place I work, 5" is about the narrowest floor they run. Lots of huge outfits make strip floor in the 2-3" range. Can't compete with them on price, all out floors are hand selected and made by guys that know wood and can read it blind folded for color etc. This let's clients spec things they couldn't spec otherwise.

My boss started out in a walkout basement with basic machinery making high end floor for selective customers. So I won't tell You you can't or even shouldn't do it. You can make it go if driven. But don't be confused, the guy with the molder has paid for it one hundred times over, and he owns the building itts housed in. Now he is able to give a guaranteed delivery date with short lead times, offer a very wide variety of sizes and species, replace failures quickly. There is an economy of scale involved in this sort of enterprise, a certain minimum size for efficiency. And these days your competiting against the Chinese too, and they sort of have the edge on "cheap labor". I'm not even guessing here. I admire your sense of competition, but try to remember, John Henry beat the machine, then died. The machine went back to work the next day.

Make sure to charge a fair price and pay your self a decent wage. Don't give your product away to entice buyers, that is more of a drug dealer business model, but that's a different product with different rules. You may well be the emergent player in your local market which is a great way to get started. Round me? There are probably 1/2 dozen small custom manufacturers doing this, and they are all very good at it.

[Carl Beckett]

Well - if we are talking about launching a business on woodworking - its a pretty lengthy discussion. I keep seeing shop after shop that is liquidating equipment (at least in my area), and it doesnt seem a very good time to try to break into the business.

But as with most businesses, all you need is one customer to get 'started'. That doesnt mean it scales, nor does it mean its sustainable, nor repeatable to get the next customer (or 10th or 100th)

It seems to me that Phil just wants to do it and give it a try. Asking questions, collecting info. We will see how it plays outs (it will be educational to learn Phil, because others here have tried and please do let us know the outcome because some of the others failed but then never came back to post an update). Learning what/how a business fails is much more valuable than speculating on all the ways it might work.

[Jeff Duncan]

So, I'm competing with folks that have to pay off a 6 figure machine, as well as pay for a place to house it, and upkeep it.
i have no problem competing against that.....

Peter made the point already....but look at it like this....do you think you could start a business selling hamburgers out of your house with no overhead at all, and compete against McDonalds with all their overhead and selling them for 99 cents? No way....it's economy of scale;) Same as me trying to build a cabinet for less than Ikea....sure they have huge overhead, a sales force, big stores, etc etc.....but they still sell a box for less than I can buy the materials for!!!

So an average size molding company has a minimum of several hundred thousand invested in equipment. They have labor and benefit costs, and much higher overhead. They also buy material for much less than you can, and run it through the plant at a rate they only need to make a minuscule amount of money per foot. This topic comes up every so often on professional forums with guys who want to get into the molding business and I've thought about it a lot. I can buy material at wholesale and work for free and still not compete against the local molding houses:(

Now if you want to offer a truly custom service for a premium price you may be able to make something work! For instance, I'll make up short runs of molding for contractors who might need 20' or 200' to match an existing profile. I can also offer curved or radiused moldings. Basically small jobs which can be more expensive for the bigger companies as they prefer bigger quantities. Flooring though....now way, I couldn't touch the stuff for what I can buy it for.

Again, not trying to discourage you from running flooring just to run it for yourself or a friend. Just trying to convey that as a possible new business venture it's going to be tougher than you seem to believe. Best thing is to go ahead with this project and keep good track of everything....time, cost of materials, cost of tooling etc and see how you make out. At least that way you'll have a better idea of what's it's going to take for a small batch of flooring. Carl also made a good point, let us know how you make out. There's a tendancy for guys to not want to post their results. I think it would be very valuable to others with the same idea though. As opposed to just accepting the conventional wisdom they could read about others experience with trying it out:)

good luck,
JeffD