Questions about plow irons

[jason thigpen]

Like many here, I was inspired by Derek's plow plane build. I've been looking for a set of irons to build a plane around myself. Are there any companies currently making plow irons? Or are vintage sets where I need to be looking? Looking on the Bay, it seems like complete sets of Sorby or Butcher irons are available for around $80-100 a set. Is this a good price? This is my first foray into plow planes. Needless to say, I'm pretty excited!

[Jack Curtis]

Check out gandmtoolsales, his store is called the Plane Iron Shop. I've bought a couple of irons from him, he's reliable, shipping costs are reasonable.

[Zach Dillinger]

There are no companies that currently make proper style plane irons, at least that I know of. Vintage is your only choice. I wouldn't hesitate to spend $100 for a set of Butchers, but I love Butcher irons.

Check out my plow that I made for the Great Woodie Build Off, if you need some more inspiration. Mine works great, although it ain't as pretty as Derek's... :)

[Mikkel Frederiksen]

What about ECE in Germany? They make spare irons for their plow planes.
If they are proper irons, I don't know ;)

You can buy them from Fine-Tools in Berlin: http://www.fine-tools.com/hobele.htm
(Look at the bottom of the page)

[Harlan Barnhart]

Mikkel, those are nice looking blades. Thanks for the link. One difference I see between the ECE blades and traditional blades is the ECE are not tapered. That wouldn't be a problem if you are making your own plane from scratch.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jason

IBC make the blades for the plough planes sold by Barrett & Son. I posted pics of these on WoodCentral about three months ago at their request. Do a search. My guess is that a set of 8 will run you about $400 - $500. I paid about $100 for mine on auction, but these were special, and I got lucky. Generally, they go from $50 upward on eBay, depending on the condition (e.g. length of blade - $50 would get you either a matched well-used set, or a better, but unmatched set).

Jason, if you cannot find anything you are happy with, email me. I have a matched set of very good length that I would sell cheaply - but the shipping from Australia may be an issue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[jason thigpen]

thanks for the replies everyone! those new irons are a bit out of my price range. i think i'll just keep scouting the net and try to find a good used set somewhere. those butchers seem to be calling my name.

derek, i've never had to ship something down your way before. i'm afraid to even ask what the shipping could be across that much water!

[Zach Dillinger]

The problem for me with the ECE irons would be that they are metric. For frame and panel work, and other such work, it is important that your mortise chisel match your plow iron width. I don't own metric chisels, so metric irons would be a problem. I'd rather have vintage irons in imperial sizes. For other guys, it may not matter.

[Chris Vandiver]

In my experience, it would be the exception and not the rule, to find a vintage iron that was right on the money for a given size. And then to get that to match perfectly to a mortise chisel from a different maker would be quite an amazing coincidence. If one wants both the chisel and the iron to match perfectly, then you'll most likely have to modify one or the other to match. Of course, they don't have to match perfectly or even closely, for that matter.

[Derek Cohen]

Chris is spot on about sizing blades. In other words, do not fuss about metric or imperial - none are accurate, but they can be fixed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Cherubini]

Chris is spot on about sizing blades. In other words, do not fuss about metric or imperial - none are accurate, but they can be fixed.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Careful Derek. Can't easily fix a 6mm to match a 1/4" chisel. 6mm are sold as 1/4" here but are .236. That's a considerable difference. Haven't mic'ed my irons in a while. While it's true there is variation, its no where near the variation between std and metric tools. (in the smaller sizes) That said an 8mm plow iron might be a good place to start for 5/16". That's about the only one.

Chris, if you do a lot of frame and panel work, there's an advantage in plowing your grooves first, then indexing (hate this word) the mortise in the plowed groove to position it. Closer those two are together, the easier it is to fit the tenon correctly. That's just one application. There are others.

Jason, you don't need a set of irons. You'll never use most of the sizes. You need 1/4", 5/16", maybe 3/8" and something smaller than 1/4" (1/8" +/-). Initially, you can live without the 5/16" and 3/8". I use my larger irons only in my router. My advice is to ask some British tool deal to find you a "harlequin set" of the sizes I suggest. Of course, the chief problem is getting a 1/4" iron with any others, so any set containing a 1/4" may be just as much money as a full set. See, most 1/4" irons are either used up, or in the plow plane that sold on ebay. So most sets are 7 irons, missing the 1/4" (which is in the plow). The reason it's in the plow and also the shortest iron in any set is because 1/4" is the most (or only) useful size for traditional cabinetwork.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Adam

Of course you are correct. The issue is one of "tool slaving", and to do this we really only need to pair up a few blades. In sizes, I would want to match up a 1/4" for grooving, since this the common one in drawer bottoms and frames-and-panels. So ... one plough blade, one mortice chisel, and one router plane blade. Any others you can think of?

Of course, there is no reason at you cannot slave in the other direction, that is, work "down" to a metric size. After all, these are dedicated tools for a specific purpose.

I have done this with 1/8" and 3/16" as well since I use them in boxes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Zach Dillinger]

Adam is right on. Of course you can "fix" metric irons to match imperial, but why would you bother? Vintage irons can be had, often for less money. And there is variation, of course, but they are usually close enough. And the 1/4" is the most useful iron. That one lives in my plow most of the time, and my 3/8" iron lives in my OWT router, most of the time. The others have their uses, but they are few and far between.

This post assumes you work with imperial tools. If you have metric mortise chisels, then by all means ignore me.

[Mark Wyatt]

Speaking of useful plow plane irons, has anyone ever tried to get one of the wider irons, like a 3/4" or 1", to work correctly in a plow? I had reason to make a 7/8" groove and had the appropriate sized iron for a traditional plow plane. After fiddling around for some time, I gave up and just used the 3/8" twice. I couldn't get a good, clean, square bottom cut with the bigger iron. It was difficult to find a good cut depth and the plane kept tipping from side to side. This was in walnut. Perhaps it would have been more effective in a soft wood.

[Jim Koepke]

Speaking of useful plow plane irons, has anyone ever tried to get one of the wider irons, like a 3/4" or 1", to work correctly in a plow? I had reason to make a 7/8" groove and had the appropriate sized iron for a traditional plow plane.

My wooden plow can't use a blade wider than 1/2".

It hasn't been used for years. For most work up to an inch, a Stanley 45 works fine.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

I haven't seen a wooden plow iron wider than about 5/8". Making two overlapping grooves should work just fine.

[Derek Cohen]

Traditional plough planes run blades 1/8" through 5/8". Keep in mind that plough planes (plow .. uggh!) are used for ploughing (!) grooves, not rebates (rabbets ... uggh!!). I have used the LV Small Plow for narrow rebates, however. The LV and the Stanley #45 comes with wide blades as well. LV recently released a set of blades that takes it to 3/4". Note that these are ideally used with the double skate set up. I think that balancing a wide blade on a single skate would be very difficult to maintain the horizontal. I have not had a chance yet to use the wide LV blades, but I doubt that they would have been released if they were less than steller. I have played with the wide #46 blades, and these were pigs (while I love the plane with the narrower blades).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rick Lapp]

Jim Bode often has complete sets available. http://www.jimbodetools.com/cart.php?m=search_results&search=Plough+irons. His service is top notch

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've never tried to plough a large groove with a plow - but with the smaller irons, I can rip up such a thick "shaving" (it's not even really a shaving at that point) that I'd think even if I could make the plane handle it, it'd be faster to do it twice. I had to plow a groove for some plywood, and rather than grind an iron to match, I just made two grooves, and knocked out the middle with a chisel. The first piece, the grain was actually going the right way so I could just snap that extra piece out with a pair of sheet metal bending vise grips twisting about once every 8 inches. The whole thing was done a lot faster than I thought it'd be.

[John Walkowiak]

A problem with buying irons that did not originate in the same set is that they may very well vary in thickness. Different makers can vary as much as 1/8" in thickness. If they do vary, your wedge will not fit all correctly. You really don't want to or have to grind them to the same thickness. Original sets can be found. When buying, look or ask the seller to lay them out to make sure they are all the same. Jim Bode always has sets for sale on his website and on eBay. http://www.jimbodetools.com/

[Adam Cherubini]

For the sort of work I do, Derek, I haven't seen much use for anything other than 1/4". But that doesn't mean others won't.

For frame and panel work, I typically work with 4/4 stock. I'm looking for a tenon about 1/3 of that, certainly no smaller. I like to have a plow iron, mortiser, mortise/tenon gage, and a firmer all essentially matching (best to have the firmer a tiny bit light). Since my router uses my plow irons as cutters, that always matches.

I recall once making a massive bread board end in which I used a near full length haunch. That was 5/16". I used my plow to establish the groove, then mortised from there. Obviously the tenon was one thickness so I didn't want to make adjustments to the mortise.

I wouldn't recommend grinding a 1/4" mortiser to 6mm. Rather make adjustments to the plow irons (which I have done). Old plow irons are easy to fix since they are mostly iron.

I haven't tried many new plows including LV's. I never cared for the Stanley 45. Had one and sold it. There was something about that (blade holding) mechanism I never liked. Not trying to be cute or a curmudgeon, but recently I realized the brilliance of using a mallet as the micro adjusting mechanism of the 18th c. That really does a shockingly good job.

My advice to would be plow plane buyers is to buy a British handle-less wedge-arm plow. These work great and aren't pretty enough to attract collectors. Buy a 1/4" iron for it (if it didn't come with one) and look for a 1/8" (or smallest you can find) down the road. I use this cutter like a table saw (or cutting gage on steroids- for ripping narrow stock. I sometimes stick moldings on wide boards, then plane a groove to remove the molded portion. If you are careful, the planed surace will be adequate for use without further planing. I typically plane in from both sides (top and bottom).

FWIW, I typically don't use plows to create features for complex moldings. This has become a popular approach with 2 notable plane makers adopting this practice and one book in the works. Not sure about it's historical significance. And I have nothing against this method. I just know that if I have to remove a 1/2" x 1/2" by 8' section of wood, I lack the patience for a plow plane. I'm typically happier using a rabbet plane or a chisel followed by a rabbet plane. When you have to remove wood fast, nothing NOTHING beats and edged tool.