felder or minimax

[David Hawxhurst]

now that the moons are coming in to alignment its time to decide on either a minimax st4 elite or felder kf700sp. both companies have good reputations. trying to compare the two is proving to be quite the challenge. i got two speced out and the are within about 1k of one another. i don't actually know anyone that owns a minimax but know several that have the felder. so what are peoples thoughts on the two?

[Stephen Cherry]

I've got a Felder saw, and it's great. One thing though, if you get the felder, I would try to get a 1 1/4 spindle for the shaper. I think that 30mm is their standard, and a little bit of an odd ball for US.

Also, the felder people in Delaware rate pretty high in my opinion of customer service. I definitely would ride up and check out their operation.

[Peter Kelly]

The showroom at Felder in Delaware is pretty dinky and I don't recall seeing that particular machine on the floor when I dropped by a few weeks ago however you will get an idea of the overall quality of the mid-range Felder machines if you go. Looked to be quite good. I believe Minimax will try and point you to someone in your area that actually owns that same machine if you want to see one in person.

[Rick Fisher]

If you have time, go to the woodworking show in Atlanta in about 4 weeks.. I think it starts on the 20th ..

Both SCM and Felder will have good displays of their machinery on hand. Both make really nice stuff. Personally, I would go with customer service .. That is #1 .. Call the service departments for each company .. no specific time .. Get a feel for which customer service department you would rather deal with ..

Both machines are very nice .. Compare the little details .. Felder saw blades need a hole drilled in the side of them for a pin.. Not a big deal. Most all the blade companies can supply you with a blade for a Felder. A good friend and member here runs all Tenryu Blades on his Felder .. He say's they are very good..

[Van Huskey]

Regarding IWF in Atlanta it is the 22-25 of August. SCMI will apparently have very few of the Minimax machines on site, using most of their room for their bigger machines, so if you want to see both or either I would contact MM and Felder to see what they will have on display to determine if it is worth the trip. Felder concentrates on a much smaller market than the full SCMI group so they are more likely to have smaller machines on display (since that is what they make).

[Rod Sheridan]

I also wasn't sure what to buy and made the choice based upon customer support in my area, which gave Felder the lead.

Look at both, look at the accessories and options (which it appears that you have already done), and ask about field service, parts stocks and locations...........Have fun..........Rod.

[joe milana]

Just my opinion, but I have always felt the ball bearing sliding table mechanism on the minimax to be a weak point, and the most prone to wear. I'd put the "dumbbell" style that Altendorf uses as tops, and the X-roll second in line.

As far as a saw/shaper, I'm glad I didn't go that route. Constantly removing and replacing the shaper fence and feeder would be a PIA. Sure, having an 8' sliding table shaper would come in handy every once in a while, but not very often, and there's always a work around.

One other thing, I am reluctant to recommend anything Laguna, but I would take a look at their PP14 panel saw. Looks like a pretty nice saw for the money. You'd have enough money left over to buy a nice shaper.

[Stephen Cherry]

X-roll second in line.

As far as a saw/shaper, I'm glad I didn't go that route. Constantly removing and replacing the shaper fence and feeder would be a PIA. Sure, having an 8' sliding table shaper would come in handy every once in a while, but not very often, and there's always a work around.

I think that it would depend on what you are planning to do. For raised panel doors, maybe the separate saw and shaper would be best. My opinion though is that the sliding table saw is just begging for a shaper and feeder.

First of all, tenons for tables, etc. The sliding table with good clamp would make it super easy. Breadboard table ends. Also, having a feeder on a saw is a big plus, and would help with safety as well. For preparing dimensioned lumber, you could rip one edge strait with the sliding table, then rip to width using the saw fence with feeder. All with good dust collection and your hand nowhere near the blade.

Also, there's no reason you can't have an extra shaper around for cuts using the shaper fence.

[David Hawxhurst]

i'm doing a saw/shaper for space. like most i'm limited on space. i see more benefits to having the shaper w/the saw and slider then separates. sometime down the road if i get a bigger shop maybe i'll add a stand alone shaper.

[joe milana]

Did you see the KF700S Pro on the Vancouver craigslist? Sweet!

[Jim Becker]

I've been very pleased with my MiniMax machines...slider, J/P and bandsaw. Aside from liking the people and machines in general, what I liked about MM is the way they are very well equipped without having to deal with a lot of options choices and costs. Both brands are good, however, so in either case, you'll end up with a great tool in your shop.

[David Hawxhurst]

Did you see the KF700S Pro on the Vancouver craigslist? Sweet!

yes i saw it. already contacted him about it.

[joe milana]

yes i saw it. already contacted him about it.

I would be curious what kind of import tax would be involved with a purchase like that.

[Jack Camillo]

Minimax has provided good customer service for me, and that's not to say anything broke. Good people, looking to help.

[David Kumm]

The dumb bell roller design is an Altendorf design and not an easy one to adjust. I would not make any decision based on the slider bearing type. X Roll is probably the pick of the litter now but all high end sliders have smooth systems. Martin and SCMI use ball bearings, as does my Knapp. My 25 year old SCMI slider shows no wear on the ways or bearings after production use so it is unlikely that you could wear out any slider. Best condition for best price is the way to go. And stay with three phase. Dave

[joe milana]

That's good to know Dave. I guess track record speaks for itself. Of all the designs, the ball bearing design just seems the most wear prone to me.

[Rick Fisher]

I believe if I was going to buy a slider right now, I would buy used.. There is so much on the market .. My choice would be a separate shaper as well.

[Mike Heidrick]

The folks on the Felder Owners Group Yahoo email list are enough of a reason to buy a 700 series. I am on the minimax yahoo list too and it gets very little discussion. David P Best, Marc, Brian, Rod, tons of VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE guys about these machines. Guys make air clamps for the Xroll, outfit them with pneumatc setups, all the aigner options that Felder sells - shy of Martin and SCMi T class seperates I would be all over the 900 and 700 series Felders. 700 saw shaper is a beast - get the 240 fence! Plus the felders have the high speed router spindle too.

Be careful though - While you think you are saving room vs seperates you will need more space for it than a NA style cabinet saw and Euro shaper. Now if you buy a small hammer you might be savaing some room. Definately go see a 700 saw shaper in person before buying it if you are space challenged. Its not just its footprint it is its sheet good and wood clearence space.

Order David P Bests book and read it too - you will be convinced how nice Felder 900 and 700 machines really are.

BUT - I am not giving up my T1002s and sawstop so what do I know ;)

[David Kumm]

Mike, I'll only disagree about the Felder 240 fence. It is my least favorite part of their shaper. It requires fence plates to be slotted and is a little small to handle the Aigner IMO. If I could only get get one spindle it would be the 30mm with a full bushing to 1.25. My preference is both as euro tooling works better with the Aigner but US tooling is lots easier to source. It's almost impossible to fault the Felder build quality although the ST 5 is a little heavier. Dave

[David Hawxhurst]

i have put my hands on several 700 series machines. i have done the layout and it will fit. David P Best book is already on its way.
Rick - maybe i'm just not very good at searching but i haven't really found much in the way of use ones.
Mike - you wouldn't convince me to buy a NA type table saw. i would go with a track saw before that. a separate shaper might be nice, but at this time and my style of work i feel the shaper/saw combo is the way for me.
David - looking at 3 phase, 30mm spindle and still trying to figure out what i will need to get so i can start using the shaper. my understanding is the st5 is comparable to the 900 series. still trying to track down if there would be an duty on buying that one in vancover. it was shipped there with duty free because it had the scoring motor/blade.

have lonnie bird's shaper book. i'm trying to figure out what cutters i need to build shaker style door/drawer and interior door(s). also thinking some sort of straight and or rebate cutter for doing curved stuff.

[Peter Gregory]

I have a Felder 700 (a joiner/planer too). With these machines, I can run my woodworking at .001". I only rip and cross cut on the Felder, my miter saw isn't as good.

My one complaint is the documentation was just bad 8 years ago when I bought it (don't know how it is now). A European table saw isn't something we used in wood shop in high school. The good news is that Felder has a bunch of videos of people using the machine now, and they are helpful. A second for David Best's "Unofficial Survival Guide." I had it out last week to see what he said about something. It isn't hard to read the schematics, but it took me some getting used to. I can do it easily now, but there was a learning curve on the machine.

Don't know what the MM machine is like, I have never seen one.

Felder 700 series is simply fantastic. If you can afford it, you will love it.

[Rod Sheridan]

David, do yourself a favour and purchase an up to date shaper book such as The Spindle Molder Handbook, it covers the more modern MAN rated cutters.

It's the best spindle molder (shaper) book I've owned, and I have the 2 most popular US books, they unfortunately are a couple of decades out of date.

30mm tooling is the way to go, with a sleeve for 1 1/4" if you can. Felder have sales a couple of times per year, the 30mm is more cost effective since most of the world uses metric tooling.

You'll love the 700 series.......................Regards, Rod.

[Stephen Cherry]

30mm tooling is the way to go, with a sleeve for 1 1/4" if you can. Felder have sales a couple of times per year, the 30mm is more cost effective since most of the world uses metric tooling.
.

I don't know about this-- if you look at ebay you will see at least 10 shaper cutters in 1.25 for every one in 30 mm. All the euro cutters market to the US in 1.25. All of the US manufactured cutters are 1.25. Other than Felder with some great periodic sales on excellent euro cutters, which even on sale are not cheap, 30 mm is few and far between. Plus, the 1.25 to 30 mm sleeve is very thin.

My recomondation would be to look at the cutters you would like to have first, then buy the spindle diameter to match. The internet is your friend here, amazon, ebay, etc. I've been able to buy many of my cutters (new and used) from Oella saw, and what this gives you is production quality tooling at a more reasonable price. Almost everything you see will be 1.25, or even 3/4 inch bore. So while conceptually it may be fun to look at the felder 30 mm tooling and think about what the price will be in the winter sale, the reality is that if you actually want do do something like round over an edge, or cut a slot, or cut to a pattern, etc., almost all of the tooling available at a reasonable price will be 1.25.

Don't take my word on this though, do a little homework using the internet.

P.S. If I had to pick two spindles for the felder machine, they would be 1.25 and 3/4.

[Stephen Cherry]

For example, here are some nice pattern cutters, not available in 30mm

http://www.byrdtool.com/shs1.html

[Chris Fournier]

Both brands have their appeals. I have looked at both brands on three occasions and from my perspective, guys that like to revere their machines as objects of industrial art prefer Felder. Felder has lots of trick CNC'd bits and a catalogue of ginchy $$$ options. Felder machines a fancy fastener on their shaper spindle, MM uses a bolt for example. MM on the otherhand appeals to guys who want a woodworking machine to work wood in a more business like setting - nice machine let's make money using it. The MM machines have heavier castings and longer tables (on the Combo machines I was looking at, I bought a MM CU410 Elite S) than Felder. MM has their own foundry, Felder does not. The upshot of this is that the Felder machine required an optional fussy movable table extension to provide the same fixed capacity as the MM machine. Flimsy in comparison and a real time waster - my opinion.

I would not choose a brand based on Yahoo forum activity. SCM has lots of support infrastructure in North America. Forums are great for comradery but any serious help is best provided by the machine builder. Forums are also full of BS that is often easily refuted in the machine manual and from routine experience.

As for shaper spindle sizes, if you are in NA 1.25" cutters are prevelant, 30 MM not so much. I buy shaper tooling from Royce Ayr Carbide and it costs less than the equivilent Felder cutter and the quality is much higher (I have a Felder cutter so I have compared the two up close).

I am certain that Felder machines are great but in most all instances their "superior" engineering touches tend to address non-issues (slider bearings for instance). I sell Austrian motorcylces and this phenomenon seems to be an Austrian trait...

The long and short of it is that you can pay a lot more for the Felder product over the MM if you choose. Having done this research for three machine I have found three times that the MM product is a better value by quite a stretch and on the CU410 Elite S the standard package was more comprehensive than the equivilent Felder.

I say all of this to make one point: Know why you are buying a Felder or a MM machine because both will produce simaliar if not equal quality results albeit at different price points.

[Rick Fisher]

The sleeve for the 30mm taking it to 1-1/4" is actually a good choice because its basically both .. its not like a 30mm is gonna fail.

I actually think Chris makes a great point about the difference between Mini Max and Felder .. In the next couple years, ( hopefully ) I am going to buy a Euro Planer. I have the DC and the power available to run 10hp or 12hp.. I hate my Chiwanese General International...

I compare the Felder and Mini Max.. One is loaded with bells and whistles.. Pretty nice machine.. but considerably more money .. The other is basically a one ton block of steel and cast with a 12hp motor, everything is simple and way heavier than it could have been .. If your aim is to plane wood for 20 years, both will be more than satisfactory ..

I have a Felder 900 Edge Sander .. Beautiful machine, heavily built.. I rue the day however that it starts to act up .. yikes.. I also have a Felder RL-150 Dust collector that has issues right now .. Felder is awesome but for a big sheet metal box, its quite complicated to work on .. If I have to pull the motor, I am looking at an enormous task, the machine will literally need to be stripped down to get the motor out..

Complicated and engineered to the " inth " degree is really cool until something goes wrong..

[Jeff Duncan]

No opinion on brands as I've never owned either. I'll just add that if it's a decent shaper it will have a good system for interchangeable spindles. As such I'd get the 1-1/4" as there's just far more tooling available in this country, and if you find you need the 30mm buy a separate spindle for it later. You can bush them out and I sometimes do this on my machines. However I always feel the less places you have for inaccuracy to buildup the better;)

I'm also a firm believer in separates, the idea of switching a machine between functions just doesn't fly for me. You have to buy what's going to work for you though, and it sounds like you've thought this through pretty well.

good luck,
JeffD

[Joe Jensen]

I"m late to the party. I bought a Felder KF700SP and it arrived in January 2010. I am extremely happy. The only beef I have is with their setup instructions. Brian Lamb from the Felder Owners Group happens to be local to me and he came and spent most of a day getting it sorted out for me. Overall Carl from Felder has been fantastic as have the others there. Late last year I happened to have a spare day in Germany and Felder accommodated me with a long factory tour. SCMI stuff is fantastic to.

I spent months learning before I ordered and there were two resounding pieces of advice.
1) Don't buy a slider that's too short. Mine is 2700mm and that lets me use fixture and clamps with 8 ft stock.
2) Buy the features you want now.
Apparently most of the used machines are sold by folks selling the first one to get the features they didn't order the first time on a new machine. That's expensive.

I bought a single phase machine with 5HP variable speed motors (they are actually 3 phase controlled by a VFD). I also sprung for the digital readouts and power lift for the saw and shaper, larger outrigger, etc. I have no regrets at all. Lastly, the router spindle is a must in my opinion. You can eliminate a router table in the shop and use the super heavy Felder machine with it's 5hp motor as a shaper. It takes 3 minutes or so to swap spindles. Also, adding air clamps was a major improvement. I made my own.

I would absolutely recommend going to Atlanta before ordering. You will get to see both machines, and meet the US personnel. I'm happy to chat if you want, just IM me...joe

[Joe Jensen]

One more thought. The world is moving to CNC for commercial work. This puts traditional machinery manufacturers in a bind if they don't move forward. Both Felder and Minimax appear to be vibrant and strong and both have expanded their lines into CNC and essentially everything a shop needs. In my Felder factory tour I was amazed at the level or robotics and CNC in their own manufacturing lines. They have clearly invested heavily for precision and quality. I assume SCMI has as well. I also own an SCMI jointer and I'd be thrilled to add machines from either manufacturer. SCMI has a really cool new shaper that uses the same electro-spindle from their CNC units.

[Brian Krause]

Hello, I'm not sure where in Northern Neck you are located, but I live in the Hampton Roads/Norfolk area and have a KF700P and AD741 that you are free to play with if you have the desire. I don't have much commentary to add over what the others have said, but I do have both the 30mm spindle and 1 1/4". I use my euro cutters on the 30mm, however, the big benefit is that I can put my Forrest dado on the 30 mm spindle for slot cutting! I just keep a shelix cutterhead and guide bearing on the 1 1/4 for pattern work.

[David Hawxhurst]

okay its done. coming to my garage as soon as i sell the table saw i listed in the classified section.

[James Baker SD]

okay its done. coming to my garage as soon as i sell the table saw i listed in the classified section.

Exactly what will you be getting when the old saw is gone?

James

[Joe Jensen]

okay its done. coming to my garage as soon as i sell the table saw i listed in the classified section.

Better order now unless you found one in inventory

[David Hawxhurst]

funny you mention that. after specing it out they have one and another on the boat due in the next couple weeks.

[Van Huskey]

funny you mention that. after specing it out they have one and another on the boat due in the next couple weeks.

Are you holding us in suspense on purpose.... inquiring minds and all that.

[David Hawxhurst]

alright its a felder kf700 sp with 3phase motors and 9' slider. i guess i should get started on wiring a new 220v circuit for the phase convertor.

[Paul McGaha]

Congratulations David.

A googled it to check it out and that's quite the machine.

http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/saw-shapers/sawshaper-kf-700-s-professional.html

PHM

[paul caraher]

I am getting ready to list my kf700sp. Just don't have the time anymore. You will enjoy your machine. Great product.

[David Kumm]

I am getting ready to list my kf700sp. Just don't have the time anymore. You will enjoy your machine. Great product.

Paul, there was someone on FOG looking for one recently. Send me a PM if interested. Dave

[paul caraher]

Paul, there was someone on FOG looking for one recently. Send me a PM if interested. Dave
Thanks Dave PM sent

[johnny means]

The showroom at Felder in Delaware is pretty dinky and I don't recall seeing that particular machine on the floor when I dropped by a few weeks ago

It's too bad you didn't wait until this weekend. Felder is unveiling there brand new Delaware showroom as I type this post. In fact I'm on my way too go take a look at there CNC machine, which is supposed to be up and running. Apparently there expanded quite significantly.

[Peter Kelly]

Must have been a pretty significant expansion. They didn't have dust collection, compressed air or power going to any of the machines previously. Fine if you're just looking at overall build quality of something simple like a slider or a jointer but I can't imagine how you'd buy an edgebander or something complex without seeing the finish of the parts coming off it.