Dying Curly Maple ?? - Prelim Test Results

[Doug Shepard]

To really enhance the grain of some curly maple on an upcoming project, I'm thinking of experimenting with some dye then sanding so that the overall dye color is gone- except in the higher absorption areas. Guitar makers do this all the time with Candy-Apple finishes, where they dye the wood black, then sand and then dye to the final color (red/blue/green/etc.) I think they tend to do this more on quilted than curly maple though. I'm contemplating using a browner or honeyed tone, not black. I've done similar things with pigment stains on oak with good results, but that's oak. Before plunking down money on a few dye colors to experiment with I thought I'd see if anyone here has done anything along those lines - hopefully with some finished pics they could share so I could get an idea of whether I want to pursue this and if so, what dye color might work better. The other concern I have with this idea is that I really wanted to use a hand-scraped treatment instead of sanding, but I think I'd need to use 180 or 220 grit sandpaper to remove the surface dye?? And is that really going to change the look of a scraped surface? Or might the scraper plane be able to do that without scraping ALL the dye back out??

Anyone have any thoughts? Pics? Ideas? Feedback? Warnings?

[Allan Johanson]

Here's some info for you:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13568

Cheers,

Allan

[Doug Shepard]

Here's some info for you:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13568

Cheers,

Allan

Thanks Allan. There's some good info on that thread and that pic you have there is pretty much what I had in mind - just not that extreme with the color though since I'm planning on keeping my final maple color fairly natural. Even though most of the dye will get sanded off, I'm a little worried that too dark of a dye will overpower the natural maple color. But maybe too light of a dye wont emphasize the curl like I want? If you had to guess which would work better between a walnut shade or a dark amber shade, which would you think might work better against natural maple? I'm leaning towards the amber and using your tip of dying twice, but... ?

[lou sansone]

doug


is this a look that you are looking for

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18743&page=1&pp=15

if so then let know

thanks
lou
ps I will be away for a few days on a machine trip so give till wed to reply

[Doug Shepard]

doug


is this a look that you are looking for

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18743&page=1&pp=15

if so then let know

thanks
lou
ps I will be away for a few days on a machine trip so give till wed to reply

Almost. The color of the curls is pretty much what what I had in mind. They could be slightly lighter, but those would certainly do. But I still want the overall background maple color to be more natural (less amber). I looked through that post, but didn't see where you said what finish you used. Is that an oil finish? If so, I wonder if it would work to use oil instead of dye, then sand or scrape - just leaving the curls slighty darkened? If you used dye, what color? I think I'd start with your color and experiment with it and a lighter shade or two to see what's left after sanding. I'm probably going to use lacquer or water-based finish so that the finish coats don't add any additional ambering.

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Doug,

I'm really not sure because I haven't played with this enough. I think you need to try it out for yourself and see what you like. There's probably too many differences in computer monitor colours, camera colours, personal opinions, etc. I know that the pic of the stained curly maple I posted looks different in person. In person it's darker and the red colour almost identically matches the colour you see in some furniture stores where they stain oak red-brown and call it "cherry" coloured.

Grab some scrap and give it a shot! Let us know what you end up doing. I'm always looking for neat ways to play with wood.

Good luck!

Allan

[Doug Shepard]

Hi Doug,

I'm really not sure because I haven't played with this enough. I think you need to try it out for yourself and see what you like. There's probably too many differences in computer monitor colours, camera colours, personal opinions, etc. I know that the pic of the stained curly maple I posted looks different in person. In person it's darker and the red colour almost identically matches the colour you see in some furniture stores where they stain oak red-brown and call it "cherry" coloured.

Grab some scrap and give it a shot! Let us know what you end up doing. I'm always looking for neat ways to play with wood.

Good luck!

Allan

Thanks. I'm already planning on experimenting. It's just that scrap and curly maple are almost mutually exclusive terms. There's no real way around it though. I was just looking for some shoves in the right direction so I don't end up with the right starting dye color after buying 10 colors that don't work and turning all my curly maple into finish samples. I think between you and whatever Lou used, I'll have a decent idea where to start though.

Muchos gracias

[lou sansone]

Doug

If you would like I can put together a care package of curly maple scraps for you to practice on. let me know.

I know that I did not describe my process in the post. I am thinking about describing it in detail in a future post. suffice to say, that it is not a dye and sand back to expose the maple technique.

lou

[Doug Shepard]

Doug

If you would like I can put together a care package of curly maple scraps for you to practice on. let me know.

I know that I did not describe my process in the post. I am thinking about describing it in detail in a future post. suffice to say, that it is not a dye and sand back to expose the maple technique.

lou

Lou. I sent you back a reply to the PM you sent me. Thanks.

[Rob Millard]

Doug,


I have attached a photo of a pair of tables I made last year. These were dyed with home made walnut husk stain, then sanded to remove most of the color. I followed this with a weak solution of Moser's honey amber maple dye. I applied two coats of hot linseed oil, and one or two coats of de-waxed dark shellac and then padding laquer ( the tops were varnished).

Rob Millard

[Doug Shepard]

Doug,


I have attached a photo of a pair of tables I made last year. These were dyed with home made walnut husk stain, then sanded to remove most of the color. I followed this with a weak solution of Moser's honey amber maple dye. I applied two coats of hot linseed oil, and one or two coats of de-waxed dark shellac and then padding laquer ( the tops were varnished).

Rob Millard

Yeah - now that's what I'm talking bout! Darkened curls while still retaining the light maple color. Those look great. Guitar finishing was what gave me the idea, but I'd never actually seen it done with natural wood colors. You just confirmed that this is worth pursuing. I've got some dyes on order that should show up next week, and Lou Sansone graciously offered up some curly maple scraps that will probably get here the same time. I'm going to experiment with various colors and number of applications and see what looks good against the mesquite framing that will surround the maple.

Thanks for posting the pics.

[lou sansone]

Yeah - now that's what I'm talking bout! Darkened curls while still retaining the light maple color. Those look great. Guitar finishing was what gave me the idea, but I'd never actually seen it done with natural wood colors. You just confirmed that this is worth pursuing. I've got some dyes on order that should show up next week, and Lou Sansone graciously offered up some curly maple scraps that will probably get here the same time. I'm going to experiment with various colors and number of applications and see what looks good against the mesquite framing that will surround the maple.

Thanks for posting the pics.

hi doug and Rob
The package went out friday morning and you should have it by mid week. I follow basically what rob also does. always two coats of dye ( I use a 50/50 mixture of pilgram maple and honey amber maple, with sanding in between, but not that agressive, then Room temp boiled oil ( although I may start heating it like rob does ) then shellac and then a top coat. Seems to work fine. \


Rob ... what is the deal with walnut hulls , and where do you get them?
lou

[Doug Shepard]

Rob/Lou
Thanks. The dyes I ordered were all Moser dyes. I was looking at the TransTints but the cost for eperimenting was too high ($17 for the smallest bottle) vs the Mosers ($8 for the small size). I saw the Honey Amber but thought it might be too light. I ended up ordering Russett Amber Maple, Medium Amber Maple, and Orange-Red. The maple will be used with mesquite so I was looking at colors I thought would give a curl shading towards the mesquite tone. Normally I'd gravitate to also using BLO and shellac as I've used both before on cherry with nice results. But right now I'm leaning towards something else I've seen recently that knocks my socks off. It's different enough that I thought it deserved a separate thread which I just posted.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=169167#post169167

[Rob Millard]

Lou,

I read a few years ago in Fine Woodworking an article by the late John Arno, on making a dye/stain from walnut hulls. . Eugene Landon and George Frank also speak about it.

I first used it to color mahogany, but after going to making mostly inlaid furniture, I went a different route, for that.

It is made from walnut hulls soaked in water or ammonia (I used ammonia). Some sources say to use only the semi rotted hulls, but I used both the green and rotted hulls. Let the hulls soak for a week and then strain to remove the solids. The result is an inky black/brown liquid, which leaves a nice warm brown color, when applied to wood. It stinks to high heavens and the smell changes over time to something different but no better smelling. I have seen walnut crystals for sale that are supposed to be the same thing as the soaked hulls, but I have not tried it. I'm not sure that the concoction is worth the effort, as I bet I could get the same effect with a dark brown dye, but I like the idea of making my own.

Rob Millard

[lou sansone]

rob

thanks for the explanation. I believe that I have tried the walnut crystals and did not like the results. I agree that if you can make the stuff yourself it seems better. I may give it a try the next time around,,
on your table tops you said that they were varnished. I have used minwax antique oil wiping finish with good results. What type of varnish do you like?
lou


oh yea... almost forgot.... very nice tables, they are quite beautiful.

[Rob Millard]

Lou,

For table tops I use Behlen Rock Hard Table Top Varnish. Thanks for saying the tables were beautiful. I like them, but they almost cross the line into the realm of being gaudy. I had the board for the tops for 2-3 years, before I found someone willing to have me make them.
Rob Millard

[Alan Turner]

I have a package of Van Dyck Crystals, by Liberon, which were not pricey, but I have had them so long that I can't recall where I got them. I think it is just finely ground wnalnut husks or shells, which become a water dye when mixed with hot water. It is a rich walnut color, not very red at all, so I sometimes add some red dye to tint it a bit, depending. I believe it is lightfast, but I am not too sure why I believe that is the case, although I probably read it somewhere. Anyway, this dye is great on walnut to deepen the color a bit. Also good on mahogany, with a bit of red added.

[Doug Shepard]

Well I finally carried out the first trial run of my Frankenstain (actually Frankendye) experiment. Thanks all for the earlier feedback, and Lou for the curly maple scraps. A couple of these show some promise and I thought I'd show the results here to get some opinions.

Here's the rundown:
I used alcohol based dye powders for the test - just because they were cheaper. I'll probably go with an equivalent color water-based for the real McCoy.

To extend the maple scraps, I resawed 1/8" slices, but this made holding the pieces for planing/scraping somewhat problematic and the inch or two on the ends of each piece are a bit less finished than they should be.

I used card scrapers but no sanding prior to dying.

Each died/oiled piece got 2 dye applications with sanding after each application.

Sanding off the dye after each coat was tougher than I expected. To make much headway at all, I ended up using 180g with the RO sander. I initially tried sticking to a card scraper, but that seemed to be going nowhere. I suspect I could have gotten better results by running the pieces through the drum sander up through 220g then using a card scraper before dying. I think that may have allowed me to scrape or at least use much finer grit paper after dying.

Each piece got 2 coats of dewaxed superblond shellac after the 2nd dye/sandoff to seal them.

The pieces (with some observations) are:
CH - Some leftover Behlens Cherry dye I had
RA - Moser Russet Amber
IMO this is the best of the dyed pieces
MA - Moser Medium Amber
The least dramatic of the dyed pieces, but that particular piece just had less curl to it to start with.
OR - Moser Orange Red
The color sounds a bit crazy, but it actually came out sort of interesting and I suspect it might look pretty good on redder heartwood.
BLO - Boiled Linseed Oil
No dye. As a fluke I decided to use BLO as a dye to see what would happen. This was the most difficult one by far to sand back to the unoiled maple color. The result did darken up the curls somewhat, but not as dramatically as the dyed pieces.
BARE- Nothing
No darkened curls, but of all of them, it has the best "shimmer" to the curls. Undoubtedly this is due to shellac directly over a scraped surface with no sanding.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Castigations?

[lou sansone]

hi doug

what do you think of the results? I hate to say it, but none of it looks decent! I am beginning to wonder if I sent you some real garbage maple.

let me know if you want another care package. if so, this time I will finish a piece and put it in the box just to make sure you have something to go on and that I did not send you junky wood.



here is what I have found to work for curly maple, after lots of experimentation - You have to have decent maple or else the rest is not worth a hill of beans.

I call this my "double dye process" I am not sure that I have ever seen anyone else use this exact method, but for all I know every one does but will not tell anyone how they do it.

1. sand to 220 grit
2. use a water base aniline dye - I use a mixture of honey amber maple and pilgram maple. mix to suit your taste. I think darker is better than lighter on the color. I make my dye the strength of very very strong tea. I always wear rubber gloves because it will stain your fingers brown.
3. brush on the dye. lots of it. rub it into the wood with a rag.
4. let it dry overnight
5. sand to get rid of the raised grain. Do not sand off the dye. Some folks do that, but I do not. I also do not play games with using different color dyes and sanding them back. If you have decent wood and the right base color the wood will do the work and not the chemistry lab.
6. brush on the dye again- same strength or possibly a little weaker or stronger depending on the first try
7. let it dry overnight
8. coat the whole piece with BLO thinned with turps or mineral spirits- soak it on and if you want you can use a sanding sponge and make gravy with the dust and BLO. Be carefull here - use super fine sponges
9. wipe off the excess
10. let it dry a few days
11. put 1 or 2 coats of orange or garnet shellac 1/2 lb cut on with a brush and sand between coats carefully - this is where you can ruin the piece by sanding through the dye
12. top coat with what ever you like - tung oil, poly soup mixture, more shellac- but use super blond , nitro lacquer, ....
13 put a few coats on of the top coat until you like the build
14. let the finish set a week
15. rub it out with 0000 steel wool and wax or what ever else you like to rub stuff out with
16. make a nice pot of coffee and sit and look at your piece for a while - think nice thoughts and all of that rot.
17. post a picture for us to look at on SMC




kind regards
lou<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

[Doug Shepard]

... I hate to say it, but none of it looks decent! I am beginning to wonder if I sent you some real garbage maple. ...

<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

I can't say I necessarily disagree with you. But I'm not sure garbage maple was to blame. It just may be the nature of what I was trying to do.

The original idea from the starter post was:
I'm thinking of experimenting with some dye then sanding so that the overall dye color is gone- except in the higher absorption areas.

I was trying to see if there was a way to darken the curls while still leaving the overall color of the wood completely natural - that's why the sandoff after dying. While I think there is probably room for improvement in the way I did it, I'm not sure that the experiment was a failure - just that it didn't turn out to look as good as I thought it might. I'm going to take another stab at it and pay more attention to surface prep and maybe picking pieces with heavier curl to see if I'm able to improve on it. Even if I decide it's just not do-able, I've still learned something, so it won't be a total loss.

Thanks for your help.

[lou sansone]

hi doug

ok now I see what you wanted to do. I am not sure one can do that, but hey give it a try. best wishes
lou

[Greg Savage]

The color you are looking for is most likely Lockwood's Honeytone Amber aniline dye. Many period furniture makers use this dye to achieve that great antique maple patina.