Newby's power tool purchasing strategy

[Kesh Ikuma]

Hi, a first time poster (been lurking for a few weeks now) and hopefully soon to be a beginner woodworker (gotta have the tools first!)

I have some BB ply projects lined up in my mind but been slow to pick tools to purchase. I'm seeking expert opinions on first hand-held WW power tools for a budget-constrained noob and appreciate any help.

I'm pretty much set on purchasing 3 power tools to start my journey: a circular saw, a router, and a ROS. I've been quite fascinated by routers and what they can do, and I'm opted to invest on a BoschMRP23EVS plunger. To make up for the increased cost for the Bosch, I'm considering getting a cheap 13A Skil circ saw (refurb 5580-01 @ $50) and mating it it with a good blade (e.g., Diablo D0760X @ $20). What do you guys think of this choice? Will I regret for going cheap on circ saw? As I said, to start out I'm mostly interested in working with BB ply and SPF materials and eventually moving on to solid hardwoods. If you have any alternative options (including save more to buy XX brand), I'd love to hear it.

Thanks!
Kesh

[joe milana]

I'd go for it. A couple scraps of plywood or mdf & you have a track saw. Skip the plunge feature if it saves you money on a router. Good luck!

[Rich Engelhardt]

Will I regret it for going cheap on circ saw?I did. However,,,,not nearly as much as I regreted skimping on a router. A ROS is going to be of little use for plywood projects. You can always skip the ROS for the time being and use that money to upgrade the circular saw. There's a world of difference between a $50.00 circular saw and a $100 circular saw. A ROS is also fairly expensive to "feed". You pay a hefty premium for disks over what you pay for sheets of sandpaper.

[scott spencer]

I think your 3 basic choices are pretty versatile and seem logical to me. Bosch routers are excellent. My experiences with Skil haven't been all that pleasant.....if I were looking at an inexpensive circular saw, I'd look to something like this refurbed Hitachi (http://bigskytool.com/Hitachi_C7SB2_7-14_15_Amp_Circular_Saw_(Reconditioned)___i258.aspx ) for $65. That Diablo blade is an excellent value for cutting ply.

Save money for some decent router bits.....buying the cheapest no-name bits can be dangerous and disappointing. I'd stick with better value brands like MLCS or Woodline.

[Carl Beckett]

Very reasonable choices.

Watch your local Rockler, and other sources for clearance router bits. Often on sale there. And for straight bits, I purchase solid carbide end mills off ebay - a 1/2" spiral bit can be had for under $10, where the woodworking store might charge you $30-$50. (some of these have been sharpened to a few thousands undersized, but that doesnt matter for 95% of what they need to do)

'Maybe' you can find a used circ saw off craigslist (although more often than not they are beat to crap used) - or the refurb suggestion Scott mentions.

Also 'maybe' you could get a small 1/4 sheet palm sander and do ok so you dont need the ROS. Should be able to save a few $$ that way, and I see these on CL fairly regularly.

One item not on your list is a cordless drill. Are you going to use screws on any of those plywood projects? (once you drive screws with a cordless drill, its realllly hard to go back to driving by hand....)

[Don Jarvie]

Sears has ROS for reasonable prices. The ROS is the way to go for sanding IMHO. If you plan on using a lot of sheet goods it may be worth while to invest in a track saw, Dewalt makes one. I use a circular saw to break down sheet goods with a aftermarket guide and it works ok but sometimes its off a hair.

A good router is a sound investment. As mentioned by Carl get a good cordless drill and impact screw gun.

[Kesh Ikuma]

Thanks guys for your replies!

Well, I did leave out an important bit of info: I do own a 1/4 sheet sander and a drill (used for various home DIY tasks). With that and everyone's pretty much unanimous suggestion for trading off ROS for a better circ, I will push the ROS purchase back a bit (while keeping my eyes on CL) and get a better saw.

Scott and Carl mentioned to go with a refurb. Is there any glaring downside to getting a refurb? After a bit of search, I'm considering Makita 5007MG refurb from CPO. Is this a better choice than say Porter Cable
PC15TCSMK?

Also, with a better saw, do you still recommend getting a Diablo blade? Or is a stock blade decent enough that I can get good ply cuts with proper procedure (sacrificial backing/taping)?

Router bits. I'm planning on going with MLCS's 15-pc set as a starter to figure out what I actually use.

Lastly, Joe, Re: "A couple scraps of plywood or mdf & you have a track saw." My first piece of ply will be used to create this very jig. No scraps for me there haha :D

[Kesh Ikuma]

Re: track saw.

One of the reasons for going cheap on a circ is thinking ahead to upgrading it to a TS. However, Eurekazone track system seems to be a decent one to use with an existing circ, so I'm tilting towards getting a better circ saw.

[johnny means]

I would ditch the circular saw for a jigsaw. Your probably going to get very rough straight cuts with the circular saw. The jigsaw will give you rough cuts also, but you gain the ability to cut curves. I would definitely want the sander, I would never even think about finishing anything without sanding, including plywood.

[Sam Layton]

Hi Kesh,

Welcome to the Creek, It is a pleasure to meet you.

With your choice of tools, I like the Bosch routers. As time goes on you will find that you will want more than one. I have about 9 or 10 routers. However, for the first one I would want a plunge, VS router. I have two Bosch's, and I like them a lot. The circular saw, I would get a little better one to start. I an not up on circular saws. ROS's are very good. However, you can get that a little later if you have to. You will just get a little better work out sanding my hand...

Sam

[Carl Beckett]

That Makita looks like a nice saw (but take my input for what its worth - I still use a 40 year old Skil....)

I have purchased refurb from cpo and never had any issues.

The blade is important - maybe more important than what saw you buy. Budget for a good one as recommended by the group here. Ebay had some good deals a while back (Onsrud maybe?)

[Jim Rimmer]

I think you have a good list of tools. I would stick with the plunge; you'll wish you had. As for the router bits, rather than lay out a chunk of $ for the 15 piece set with some bits you won't need, wait and buy good quality bots as you need them. Woodcraft and Rockler have been mentioned and they often have sales; Eagle America is also a good source for router bits.

[scott spencer]

I think you have a good list of tools. I would stick with the plunge; you'll wish you had. As for the router bits, rather than lay out a chunk of $ for the 15 piece set with some bits you won't need, wait and buy good quality bots as you need them. Woodcraft and Rockler have been mentioned and they often have sales; Eagle America is also a good source for router bits.

Jim - The MLCS 15 piece set is < $40 shipped and includes the most commonly used profiles. It's not quite Eagle America caliber, but is a pretty safe first buy for the money IMHO.


I would ditch the circular saw for a jigsaw. Your probably going to get very rough straight cuts with the circular saw. The jigsaw will give you rough cuts also, but you gain the ability to cut curves. I would definitely want the sander, I would never even think about finishing anything without sanding, including plywood.

Johnny - With a the right blade, a reasonable quality circular saw should be able to achieve pretty smooth cuts....possibly rivaling that of a TS.

[Greg R Bradley]

IF your main interest for a circular saw is plywood, I would buy a used Porter Cable 314 Trim Saw. Don't buy it new for around $260 since they are not the quality they were 10 years ago. Buy a used one for about $150, which will still be worth $150 if you ever upgrade to a tracksaw. The owner of Eurekazone, stated in a post that the 314 was the "best circular saw EVER".

I have a heavily used one that is about 25 years old and they just work. I recently sold my 15 year-old, virtually unused, extra one with the fine carbide and super fine steel blades for $200. I almost hope he doesn't come through with the money and pick it up.........

[Kesh Ikuma]

Scott,


Johnny - With a the right blade, a reasonable quality circular saw should be able to achieve pretty smooth cuts....possibly rivaling that of a TS.

I want those pretty smooth cuts! :D After reading responses, I get that $50 saw won't do it. But would a $100 saw be qualified as "a reasonable quality circular saw"?

I'm quickly finding out that sky's the limit for the $$$$ to be spent on WW tools. So, I'm afraid to ask :)

[scott spencer]

Scott,



I want those pretty smooth cuts! :D After reading responses, I get that $50 saw won't do it. But do would a $100 saw be qualified as "a reasonable quality circular saw"?

It always depends on the saw, but it should....even a decent $50 saw should be capable of good cuts with a straight edge and a good blade. The saw only needs be able to spin a blade true....most will do that....the better quality saws will do it better for longer, and are often nicer to use.

What you're finding with price, is that it can get substantially more expensive for less substantial performance improvements....unfortunately it's usually not a linear progression. The improvements are somewhat subjective, but the extra money spent is absolute! At some point, there's a happy medium of price, quality, and overall value that we each need to define, depending on our needs, wants, objectives, and means. Also at some point it becomes more expensive to spend too little, and have to repeat the purchase. The Freud LU79R007 is one of the best plywood blades out there for a circular saw, but costs ~ $38....the D0760X is also very good for close to half that. It could be argued that a $65 saw with the right $38 blade will make cleaner cuts in ply than a $100 saw with a $10 blade....probably better than a $200 saw with a $10 blade too! However, there are other things you can do to improve the cut....custom ZCI for your saw, a scoring cut, painter's tape, backer board, etc.

[Jim Andrew]

If you can get a refurb Makita skilsaw, go that way. Never wear it out, unless you become a house builder. And then they last for years. I got a hose flange and screwed it over the dust chute on the guard, and now I can keep the dust down when using it. Just have to throw the hose over my shoulder so it doesn't catch on something. You guys have heard about the carpenter who took a extension cord when he went skydiving? He said he felt safe, cause the cord would surely catch on something. Always do.

[Kesh Ikuma]

Scott, Thanks for detailed description. I looked up custom ZCIs for a circ saw, and it looks like one of the first things that I need to make!

[glenn bradley]

I'd go for it. A couple scraps of plywood or mdf & you have a track saw. Skip the plunge feature if it saves you money on a router. Good luck!

Alternate opinion; do NOT skip the plunge feature. If you can only have one router, make it a plunge. ;-)

[Prashun Patel]

I also think you should get a cordless drill.

I'd pick up any midlevel circ saw from Lws or HD. ALmost all will handle ply and pine with no problem. Very quickly, you'll be faced with the temptation to get a bigger track/guide system or stationary saw that allows you to do things quickly and repeatably. Until you reach that point, I wouldn't go nuts investing in a circ saw or its accessories. A good midlevel saw will ALWAYS be useful for breaking down sheet goods.

To that end, I'd select a saw that feels good and light in yr hands without sacrificing a lot of power.

[Thom Porterfield]

My first forays into woodworking involved the simplest of tools: a 1/4" drill motor and set of 16 bits, a half-round rasp, a 5" B&D circular saw, a rubber sanding block and, perhaps most useful of all, a 1/2" Stanley chisel and a Stanley 9 1/2 block plane. The saw was a piece of work, and died a horrible death a few weeks after I bought it. But I still have (and treasure) the other tools. The most useful of them all, IMHO, is the block plane. With that, I was able (with much sweat and sore muscles) make some pretty spectacular things, not the least of which was a crib out of sweet gum for my daughter. Unfortunately, it took longer than planned and she grew out of it six months after it was completed.

For Christmas, last year, that same daughter asked for a circular saw. I got her a Milwaukee 6390-21. I was so impressed at how well it's made, I almost didn't give it to her. But she loves it and has used it to make all sorts of things around her house. I did buy her the Diablo D0740X blade. I think when my Skil Mag77 wears out (that's an unlikely event), I'll replace it with the Milwaukee.

As for router, when I got around to deciding I needed one (which was way too long after I actually did, in hindsight) I bought the Bosch
1617EVSPK. I never used the plunge base, and later bought other routers for that purpose, so I might advise to just get the plain router. And as much as I enjoy the Bosch, I might also advise to purchase a PC router for your first one...mainly because EVERYONE makes bushings and guides and etc for the PC, but not so much for the Bosch.

And +10 on making your own guide for whatever circular saw you wind up with. With a really good blade, I'm able to break down and square up sheet goods right in the pickup truck. And my guide is nothing more than a strip of OSB glued onto another strip of OSB, and two H.D. spring clamps to position it.

Welcome to woodworking, Kesh. Cover your eyes, wear a dust mask, and keep your fingers away from the pointy, high speed parts of your tools. :)

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I think when my Skil Mag77 wears out (that's an unlikely event), I'll replace it with the Milwaukee.I don't think you CAN wear out a Skill worm drive. Which is where I personally plink my hard earned dollars. As a bonus, it's a "left handed" saw, which means that a right handed person can see the cut. There are a lot of Skill worm drive haters, too heavy, too bulky etc. I like it, and you probably wont wear it out in your lifetime.Ditto on the 9-1/2 plane too. I always reach for that first.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Well, I did leave out an important bit of info: I do own a 1/4 sheet sander and a drill (used for various home DIY tasks). With that and everyone's pretty much unanimous suggestion for trading off ROS for a better circ, I will push the ROS purchase back a bit (while keeping my eyes on CL) and get a better saw.

Scott and Carl mentioned to go with a refurb. Is there any glaring downside to getting a refurb? After a bit of search, I'm considering Makita 5007MG refurb from CPO. Is this a better choice than say Porter Cable
PC15TCSMK?

Also, with a better saw, do you still recommend getting a Diablo blade? Or is a stock blade decent enough that I can get good ply cuts with proper procedure (sacrificial backing/taping)?

Router bits. I'm planning on going with MLCS's 15-pc set as a starter to figure out what I actually use.
There's not a lot a ROS does that a card scraper, hand sanding and a 1/4 sheet sander can't do. - some would even say do better..
Since your just starting out,,,,I strongly recommend getting well versed in the use of a card scraper as soon as possible.

A refurb is done one at a time - factory new is mass produced on a line and a QC check may or may not be thourough. As long as the reurb comes with a warranty & you can be happy with any cosmetic flaws (dings ans such), there's nothing wrong w/a refurb.
An enormous number of high end (server) computers have refub parts in them, BTW. Chances are, if you've had a server repaied under warranty, the replacment board has been reworked.


A stock blade on any circular saw will be geared more towards general purpose or rough work - such as framing.
Do pick up the Freud Diablo for $20. It's a good blade that works well. Mine will still give those "perfect cuts" you mentioned even after being used to cut bettr than a half dozen pieces of cement board. I used it with my Ryobi (the one I regret buying) circ saw to cut the new counter tops I installed (there's some pictures over in the off topic forum of B4 and after) in a "budget kitchen rehab".

Router - visit Pat Warner's website. Pat is a router god... His website is full of a lot of eye opening and useful information.

Router bits - +1 (or 2,3,4) to not buying too much in the way of a set to begin with. While it's real handy to have an assortment of bits available,,,,,it's going to probably be years until you use more than a few of them & even then it may be for a one shot deal.

[Gary Crompton]

The quality of the cut has a lot to do with the skill behind the saw and the blade. A $50 referb can do as good as a new $100 saw if it has a quality blade and a skilled operator. Build you some jigs to get the quality of a strait cut out of any scrap wood you have will help greatly. Depending on what you are cutting would determine what type of blade to by, there is some good advice on blade elsewhere on this site. As far as buying from CPO, i have always found Amazon to be cheaper for the same product. Good luck and you are right WW is just like golf or other hobbies, you can spend a ton of money. The fun part is building something with what you have, then decide what you have to have to get better.