Where to put a shop?

[Dan Oelke]

I have a good delima on my hands, and am looking for opinions from the fine assembly of people here. (Ok - so maybe I'm laying it on a bit thick there. ;))

I am hoping to at least start construction on an extra garage/shop/storage building - sometime this summer. This building has to be < 1000 sq ft (per zoning requirements) Current plan is to put a couple of overhead garage doors in it, so that utility trailer, tractor, lawn tractor, pop-up camper, etc can be parked downstairs. Then there will be an upstairs where my new shop will be. Having the shop upstairs means that I can probably put the air compressor and dust collector downstairs to remove some of the noise. This will be a detached building separate from the main house/garage - probably about a 50' walk from the house.

Now I have my current shop in the attached garage, but with all our accumlated "treasures" and toys, it has been only occasionally that one vechicle can fit in there, and almost never that both vechicles do.

My biggest concern is that having the shop in the detached building is that tools will not get put away like they should (cordless drill, hammers, screwdrivers, being hard to get put back as it is). It will be inconvient to run and get that torx bit or whatever it is. Also having an upstairs shop will make it more annoying for moving wood in and projects out. However, it will also make it difficult for other stuff to creap into my shop space. Things like the lawn tractor, utility trailer, chrismas decorations, etc. etc. Having the dust collector downstairs with the ability to put holes in the floor for ports is a big appeal.

So - do any of you have your shop in an outside building? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Does anyone have what I'm think of - a separate building and upstairs? Anything else I'm not thinking of?

[Steve Cox]

Okay, first question, how are you ging to get your tools up there? I've worked in a shop that had an upstairs which was where I worked. Lumber in and projects out was a real pain and I mean A REAL PAIN! If you work by yourself this could present a problem. Can you tell I prefer a ground level shop?:) If you're going to put it 50' from the house think about putting a bathroom out there. Aside from the obvious (the facilities) I use water in my shop frequently enough to make it worthwhile. You might rethink the two story shop and build an enclosed shop with a couple of carports for the utility trailer, lawn tractor, etc. They don't have to be kept warm.

[Tom LaRussa]

This building has to be < 1000 sq ft (per zoning requirements)

Is that the footprint or the total square footage of upper and lower floors?

[Jamie Buxton]

Someplace in the last couple of years there was an article in Fine Woodworking about an upstairs shop. He had suggestions about how to get machines and lumber up and down.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Jamie, that was in the recent "Shop" edition earlier this year.

[Mike Wilkins]

You need to check out the last issue of Fine Woodworking's Tools and Shops
annual issue. There is an article on a man who went from a ground floor
garage shop, to raising a 2nd floor for his shop. To get tools, materials up and
down, he had a pulley arrangement coming through an access hole in the
floor. This 8 X 4 hole was covered with a hinged door for easy access. Normal
entry was stairs. He put the compressor and dust collector and lumber storage in the garage below; this keeps the upper shop quieter and gives him
more storage.
If it is not still available on the newstands, you can go to Taunton's website
and order a back issue.
Good luck and watch those fingers.

[Kurt Voss]

Hi everybody - 1st post, but as is typical - have been loitering here for months. Figured I needed to jump in and respond to this question and will do a more "proper" job of introduction when I actually get my shop set-up :)

I recently built a detached building behind my house and went through the same thoughts about using the 2nd floor. Another consideration is that supporting the weight of several heavy machines will likely cost more in the framing end of the project as well as the other "hassles" involved that have already been mentioned. What I ended up doing was building the 2nd floor - but as a game room (helped with the spousal buy-in as well :rolleyes: ) and will use the ground floor for the shop. I'll also second the ideas of having a bathroom and running water as well. Be sure to run Cat-5e and RG-6 lines as well for phone/internet/security/video. If you're looking at steel buildings, I bought mine from steelbuilding.com and had a good experience with them.

[lou sansone]

I agree with kurt. If you are asking what is the ideal situation, then having everything on the ground floor is ideal. This is true if you are going to be getting any large machines. My shop is shown in the links provided and as you can see, if I did not have a ground floor shop it would be murder. You might consider a ground floor shop with a basement. There is still the floor strength issue, but you can use steel floor joists and it does not look that bad from the basement.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17821



http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18423

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18192

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18645

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18204

[Dan Oelke]

Thanks for the good comments so far - keep them coming.

The 1000sq ft is footprint (as far as I can tell) - I might find out otherwise when I go to get the permit. But that is the limit stated for an "outbuilding". It would be considered a storage/garage type building and not habitable space.

[Jim Becker]

My shop is in a separate building and I prefer it that way. Doing an upstairs shop presents a couple of challenges, but can also be quite nice. Consider a hoist to be able to move materials, projects and tools to/from the space, either inside or outside at the end of the building...better yet, if your lot slope allows it, site the building such that the second floor isn't as far off the ground as it would be "normally". That makes for either gound level access, "loading dock" or at least a shorter increase in vertical height that might be able to be served by a ramp. Be creative!

I just visited the new property that a woodworking friend (and coworker) of mine just closed on. (He's an SMC member, but I'll let him spill the beans) His new (awesome!)shop will be second floor and he's going to provide for a beam hoist. I did see an article recently on this subject, but can't seem to find it. If I do, I'll post the source in this thread.

[Tom LaRussa]

Thanks for the good comments so far - keep them coming.

The 1000sq ft is footprint (as far as I can tell) - I might find out otherwise when I go to get the permit. But that is the limit stated for an "outbuilding". It would be considered a storage/garage type building and not habitable space.

In that case, I'd build the two story out-building, but arrange all my space as follows:

[1] Garage: Cars, Lawn mower, Tractor, and whatever other big thingies like that you have. You didn't mention whether the garage is two or three car sized. If it's two, then you can give the Mrs a guaranteed, reserved-just-for-her space in it, thus increasing the buy-in factor somebody else already referred to.

[2] Downstairs in new building:

Your shop! :D :)

[3] Upstairs in new building: I'd split this in three parts

a rumpus room for the family;
a bathroom for the family, (and for you when you're in the shop).
a storage room for Xmas stuff and the like, i.e., smaller stuff from the garage;
a "noise room" inside the storage room (closet sized is all you need) to house the blower, filters, and muffler of your cyclone, plus your air compressor;
With this setup you'll still have the cyclone itself in the shop, but you can build a little closet around it and most of the noise will be upstairs anyhow.


*********************************

A few other ideas:

[1] Be sure to make the ceiling in the shop as high as possible -- at least ten feet. It's just much easier to move wood around that way.

The ideal situation would be to put the ceiling at about 12 feet with a dropped acoustical tile ceiling below it. This way you can run all of your DC ducting, heat & AC ducting, air hookups from the compressor, electrical, plumbing (for bathroom), multi-media cables, (see Chris Padilla's garage gut thread), and the like up there.

[2] If you can get away with an outside stairway to the upstairs, I'd go for it, as stairs eat up a lot of space. If not, check Jim Becker's threads from a few months back for ways to maximize use of under-stair space in the shop. Oops, I just noticed that you're in Minnesota -- scratch the outside stairs! :rolleyes:

In any case, I think the entrance to the shop should be separate from the entrance to the upstairs. I don't know how old your kids are now, (or even if you have any, but it was sort of implied, I think, from one of your posts), but eventually they will be teenagers, which means they'll be bringing friends over to hang out, and you don't want their friends and acquaintances having access to all your expensive tools.

Come to think of it, it would be a good idea to wire the upstairs for surveillance cameras while you are building it, in order to keep the kiddies away from the temptation to use the space for immoral and/or illegal purposes. :(

[3] Once the kiddies are out of the house you can add a small kitchen upstairs and rent the space out as an in-law apartment.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Dan,

A separate shop would be my dream! No more tracking sawdust in the house all the time :)

Be careful about the 1000sq ft limit. I would call the town and not tell them who you are, just say you are thinking about buying a lot near where you live. Tell them that you want to build an outbuilding exactly as the one you describe. If there are limits, you will know them, without the town knowing who asked.

Good luck!

[Brian Lindenlaub]

Dan, I used to dream of having a detached shop, but after I built one, I have to say it didn’t work out as well as I thought. The biggest problem I had (in Arizona) was the heat. You may have the same problem with the cold. Keeping the detached shop air conditioned all the time would have been very expensive for the amount of use it got, and turning the AC on a couple hours before each use didn’t fit my “an hour here, an hour there” availability to work on projects. The other biggest problem was that all my tools were out there. I had to run out there for a pliers, screwdriver, etc. every time I needed to fix something around the house.
<O:p</O:p
When we moved in 2003, I immediately claimed the 10 x 12 ft “bonus room” in the back of the house as my new shop. It's smaller than I would like, but I do mostly hand work there. It has a door leading directly to the adjacent garage, which I use as a “machine room” for noisy and/or dusty operations. Now I can work year round, and my tools are handy! This arrangement has worked very well for me.

<O:p></O:p>

Brian Lindenlaub

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Brian, Welcome to Saw Mill Creek! We are glad to have you!

Be sure to post an introduction in the General forum when you get time!

Once again, Welcome! I hope you enjoy your stay.

[James Carmichael]

I have the same limit in my municipality, 10 x 12 and, like Jeff, tracking sawdust into the house. I'm thinking of building barn-style, and using the loft for lumber.

[Dan Oelke]

Hmmm - lots of good stuff to think about.

My current attached garage is 3+ car - about 30x26 (I think I remember that right - but my memory isn't that good). The building I am looking to build would be about 35x28 (980 sq ft).

I've attached a rough sketch of my current garage. The problem is that I need more ground floor "garage" type storage. If I clear out my shop stuff that I have in there today (there really isn't a place for my new 8" jointer - except that we aren't parking vechicles in there currently....) then I could probably fit in the small tractor (a 1952ish Ferguson) that is currently at the in-laws. But that doesn't leave space for the pop-up camper (currently in storage, but sits outside all summer). If I take over the ground floor of the new building for my shop, then I have to figure out where the camper goes.

I have thought about buliding the new building and then as soon as it's signed off putting a lean-to carport on the side, but that seems not right. I like having stuff "in" and out of sight.

The family room won't help get SWMBO buy-in - I already have her ok to build "something" and she is wanting the basement finished off (it's half finished now) for the big family room.

Lou - thanks for the links to all your threads. I have been really enjoying them! A question or two for you. I have looked pretty extensively at various beam type solutions for a second floor. Since my size is tenatively 28 x 35, I'd be looking at a 35' beam down the center and then 14' floor joists. Or - maybe one post in the center. (much easier at 17-18' span - that can be done with LVL) I have access to an uncle who can get big/thick steel and the press to form it. My problem is trying to figure out how to size that beam. It would be made up from 3/8 or 1/2 (or thicker?) steel. I can do the load calculations for how much weight, but I don't know where to find something for sizing the beam.

I don't plan on having Lou sized iron in my shop. My current contractor table saw is ok (lusting for a nice cabinet saw) and my 8"x75" jointer will be the biggest/heaviest items that I can forsee for quite a while. If I don't get bit by some old-iron bug getting that equipment upstairs shouldn't be too hard. I have thought about an outside entrance, but don't want to deal with icy steps - the area isn't real condusive to building it into the hillside. Maybe 2 foot of hill is about all I could get.

I am debating on height. Having a high ceiling is nice. I grew up with my dad's workshop in the basement with about 7.5' ceilings. Not bad, but annoying sometimes. My current garage has 10' celiings. Very nice, but maybe a little excessive. I was thinking 8-9' would be ok. I rarely find myself bumping a board into the 10' celing. Evidence of this is that I have yet to break one of the several bare bulbs on the ceiling, and I am not that careful or coordinated. However, this building will be just off to the side of the main house and I don't want it to overpower it. I am thinking of doing gambrel type roof so that the second floor is all under the roof, yet I won't end up with just a narrow hall-like room if I used even just a 12/12 straight pitch. Using Gambrel also means that on the sides at least my siding/wall appearnce is much shorter. I want to keep this thing to 20-24 feet high.

(grrr - can't get attachements to work... so here it is inline....) http://www.oelke.com/people/dan/garage.gif
http://oelke.com/people/dan/garage.gif

[Tom LaRussa]

My current attached garage is 3+ car - about 30x26 (I think I remember that right - but my memory isn't that good). The building I am looking to build would be about 35x28 (980 sq ft).

I've attached a rough sketch of my current garage.

That's fine, so far as it goes, but we really need to see more detail before we can truly apply our collective genius to sending you into debt for the rest of your lifer ... er ... I mean, to creating a nice shop space for you. :D

Some questions:

[1] how does the current garage relate to the house?

Where does the door (3 steps up) lead, kitchen? mud-room? laundry room?
What is behind the back wall of the garage?
[2] How does the proposed out-building sit on the land? Is it next to the house, i.e., fronting along the street? Is it behind the house? Sort of diagonally behind? What?



The problem is that I need more ground floor "garage" type storage.

Would it be possible to site the shop building close enough to the house to use it as the garage, rather than the attached garage? I'm guessing not, given the winters you have up there.

If not, then we have to pull out all the stops...

How about something along these lines?


Arrange the garage like this:

http://home.earthlink.net/~tomlarussa/garage.gif

And arrange the new space like this: (Note that I've switched the dimensions of the new space to 25 x 40.)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tomlarussa/25x40shop.gif



The family room won't help get SWMBO buy-in - I already have her ok to build "something" and she is wanting the basement finished off (it's half finished now) for the big family room.

Will the new building have a basement?



I am debating on height. Having a high ceiling is nice. I grew up with my dad's workshop in the basement with about 7.5' ceilings. Not bad, but annoying sometimes. My current garage has 10' celiings. Very nice, but maybe a little excessive. I was thinking 8-9' would be ok. I rarely find myself bumping a board into the 10' celing.

I bump them into my 8' 4" ceiling all the time. If my shop had a them song it would be It's raining glass! :mad:

[lou sansone]

hi dan


It does take a lot of time running this through your mind for all the pro/con of various designs. I have 1 steel beam in my post and beam shop. I wanted a 28' clear span and that would be pretty tough using only timber. It can be done, but the wooden beam gets so big that it is not practical. Eventhough I am an engineer by trade and education, I did not bother with load calculations. There is a very large steel shop in the town next to mine and I simply showed them my sketched plans and had them suggest a beam. They recommneded a 16" beam width and I asked for the next larger size, which turned out to be 18" x6" x 1/2 thick material. I had them add a bunch of gussets where it would have to tie into my post and beam frame and punch holes along the top to bolt 4x6 runners for the roof to attach to. they painted it and trucked it to my job site all for less than $1k. Seemed like a no brainer to me. So if you are thinking about the steel beam then the center mount like you were suggesting seems fine. Find someone who specializes in this and let them do the work. That is my .02cents worth.

keep thinking

lou

[PeterTorresani]

I would build the shop to the right of the house on the high ground. If you build it in front of the existing garage, you will have better access for the getting the trailer, et al in and out. I think that you have more curb appeal (no curb) if you put it behind and to the right. The higher ground will keep water out. see photo.

from the point of this picture, go North, left on 85th, then your first right, first left, first right, fifth house on the right, you be in my driveway. (About 2 miles)

I am planning on building this summer as well. We'll need to talk about sharing contacts

[Jim Becker]

Pete, if your building will be "close" to your house, you'll want to consider styling it so that they blend well for "curb appeal". This could make for a meaningful difference financially if you have to sell in the future and also just plain reduces athestic tension. I really struggled with that...particularly roof lines...in the preliminary designs I've been doing for a future home addition. It has to blend with the existing dwelling as well as my shop building...

[Tom LaRussa]

Peter,

Here's an idea for how to save on electricity in the new shop.

:p

[Dan Oelke]

Wow - Hi Peter! That is actually a picture of my house that Peter took - because he lives just up the road from me.

That is EXACTLY where I was planning on putting the shed. And by zoning requirements I have to side it the same or similar as the house.

So - extending on that idea and since Peter was kind enough to snap a photo of the front of my house - any thoughts as to if a gambrel style roof as sketched in would "blend" ok? I was actually thinking of putting the garage doors on the left side of the building and just having windows on the end facing the street - but that is something I really haven't thought much about. The end facing the street would be the gable end. I was planning on the shed being slightly closer to the street than then main structure - mostly for ease of entry - and partially because putting it parallel with the main structure would put it right on top of the vegetable garden. Moving the clothesline is no big deal, but the garden which has 6 years and a gazillion loads of compost and manure on it might be an "issue" with SWMBO.

[Steve Stube]

Maybe something with a lower profile would blend in better.

[PeterTorresani]

I am not sure what the exact rules are for matching exterior and architectural style, but the city has a web site (http://www.ci.otsego.mn.us/ )and the building department has been pretty helpful. I believe there is a code for overall height being less than the main structure.

As a matter of opinion, I don't think a gambrel roof the way I drew it would look very good (not just the face). I think if you rotated it 90 degrees and added dormers than match the house, it would look much better (one man's opinion). I can't tell what this would do to accessibility, but it might be a problem

[Dean Baumgartner]

My shop is in a detached building. 30x30 so at 900 sq ft it's under your limit. The shop space is the ground floor with a 15x30 storage room upstairs. With 4" insulation in the walls and 6" in the ceiling one 1500 watt electric heater keeps it at about 40 degrees even in the coldest part of a Wisconsin winter. It sure is nice being able to work any time and not wake up everybody in the house and being detached it keeps all the mess out.


I had the same concern about tools, just basic things..cordless drill, screwdriver pliers and the like. I went to the BORG and bought a cheaper set of tools and tool box that I keep in the house along with some basic fasteners. This covers 90%+ of the need and for anything more the shop and everything in it are only 50' away. Seems to work pretty well.

Dean

[John Bush]

Hi Dan,
Congrats on the new endeavor! I built a 1560sqft shop with 600sqft as an upstairs arts/crafts area for wife and kids. It is now wood storage and a practice room (http://rimbizz.com/?go=room) for the kids rock band friends. I keep all my machines on the ground floor and have done only assembly and finishing upstairs. I agree with the others that hauling stuff up and down the stairs gets to be a PITA and effects efficiency enough that it detracts from the fun factor of woodworking. I'm set up to do all my lawn equip servicing/repairs in the shop, but I have a separate 12'x16' shed for storage. Maybe on a moonless, permitless night one will appear next to your new shop too!!
I plumbed the shop with a utility sink and toilet and heat with in-slab hot water using a natural gas hot water heater. Radiant heat is a great way to go even with the extra $$$.
I designed the shop to look like a cottage to enhance property values and keep the wife happy(neighbors too).
A friend of my wife was visiting and said "What a darling out-building" so now we call it the "Get the &%$# -out building.
I just finished a 5/7 attached shed to house a DC cyclone system. When I get it done I'll do a review with pics. Good luck, John.