Where have all the woodworkers gone? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Keith Outten

07-18-2012, 8:57 PM

Jack,

Welcome back!
I assure you things are still as busy as ever here, for instance check out the following stats on our file attachments for 2011:

File Attachment Archives Volume 3

Volume 3 covers all twelve months of 2011:
Boat Building 53 files
CNC Machines 403 files
Design Forum 206 files
Engravers Forum 1,870 files
General Woodworking 4,311 files
Metalworking Forum 108 files
Musical Instruments 328 files
Neanderthal Forum 3,325 files
Off-Topic Forum 351 files
Project Finishing 290 files
Sign Design Forum 42 files
Turners Forum 11,749 Files
Woodcarvers Forum 187 Files
Woodworking Projects Forum 2,447 files
Workshops Forum 1,275 files

Grand Total = 26,945 files
.

Kathy Marshall

07-18-2012, 9:10 PM

Dang, 11k+ those turners are file posting fools! :eek::D And I might just be one of the biggest!

Kyle Iwamoto

07-18-2012, 9:56 PM

Yeah, those turners are pretty vocal. If that's the correct term for posting. We, er, they have almost half of the postings.....

Keith Outten

07-19-2012, 7:34 AM

There is a bit of a slow down period during July and August each year but we are still averaging between ten to twenty million page views per month and 40 to 60 thousand visitors every day over the course of the year.

The Turners Forum is undoubtedly the most active here and the pictures of their projects are just incredible. I view every picture in every forum here once per year when I create the DVD's. The Turners Forum projects are something to see and it takes hours and hours just to thumb through the pictures. There is a huge number of very talented Turners here, woodworkers every one :)
.

Don Selke

07-19-2012, 1:47 PM

I have been on this site for a very long time and miss some of the orriginal guys that used to post here. I often wonder what happened to them. Jim Becker for one is seldome on here but I think he has gotten a promotion at his place of employment. A lot of others have disappeared or have moved on. My favorate poster passed away and is greatly missed. Oh well, none of us are getting any younger I guess. I do a lot of reading here and post ocassionally. Living here in the desert southwest, I close down shop in the summer months due to the heat. It is very hard to cool my 3 car garage shop with temperatures above 110.

William Burgess

07-19-2012, 10:23 PM

I can't get into woodworking in the garage when it is 100 degrees outside, plus gardening keeps me pretty busy. Winter time is my woodworking time.

Van Huskey

07-19-2012, 11:49 PM

It took from 2003 to right at the end of 2008 to get 1,000,000 posts here, from the begininng of 2009- now we have another 867,000 posts.

One other thing to consider is as the number of posts grown there are more answers to questions that do not require a post.

Jack Camillo

07-20-2012, 5:29 AM

Impressive statistics! Glad to be back and look forward to another woodworking season, admiring pictures and stories of members' works.

Mike Cutler

07-20-2012, 6:52 AM

Everything goes in cycles, and a forum is no different.
I came over when Keith started this forum after the Badger Pond forums shut down. Sometimes I log on each day, sometimes maybe not for weeks at a time when I get busy.
I've got to imagine that folks get busy, or that their lives and interest take different directions. Sometimes people just need a little hiatus also.

As for the where are the woodworkers question;
There are plenty of them on the board with an immense amount of talent, and the generosity to share, and teach it to anyone willing to learn. Which was the premise from the start.

Tom Walz

07-20-2012, 11:56 AM

Fishing, Little League, Vacations, Gardens, House painting, Kids and Grandkids, etc.

Demographically woodworkers are well educated, upper income with many and varied interests. (Probably also extremely good looking and beloved by kids and dogs.)

We see our tool sales change with the seasons.

Summer is largely sales to commercial customers.

In fall we will start selling more Woodpecker router lifts as people get ready for Christmas and get back into their shops.

In November and early December we get the really nice wives who want to make sure they get the perfect gift for their husbands. Our transaction costs go up because we spend more time on the phone with them but we really love doing it. (C'mon - Christmas, woodworking tools, a woman who loves her husband enough to take extra care with his gift. What’s not to love? Besides they are invariably nice ladies.) We make more money on big industrial orders but these are just plain fun.

January, February are industrial and ongoing hobbyist sales.

In spring sales pick up with construction and folks finishing projects before summer when they go fishing, etc.

This is definitely a broad overview. But, as an example, my son, grandsons and I are going to build two workbenches in his garage. One adult size and one kid size.

Tom

Damon Stathatos

07-20-2012, 12:38 PM

Forums, in general, are a way I have found to 'teach' myself on a subject. My interest in different subjects, although generally deep, is sometimes relatively fleeting (2-3 years), although I don't see that as a possible case with woodworking as I've built a business around this interest. Having 'lived' through several different interests, thus forums...I can say that Sawmill Creek is...unequivocally...the most unique forum I have had the pleasure to teach myself with. In my opinion, the ideal venue and what all forums should strive to mimic.

That being said, I too have remarked to myself that this forum has changed in just the couple of years I have 'been here.' My first thoughts were that I was, myself, becoming more knowledgeable in the subject, thus my different impression of the forum itself. But I do think that it also may be something different than that. I think that the forum has shifted, with more interest being offered up by Turners and somewhat less by 'flat-workers.' One other difference is that I don't think that as many 'newly interested' members are as prevalent as I seem to remember when I began.

These are only my impressions. Not scientific nor quantitive. I have no problem with the 'shift' as I see it. I like turners, am one myself (or purport to be), but my primary interest is in flatwork and I think that there is less activity or perhaps less enthusiasm on that front than before. If I am correct (and I may not be), it only goes to prove (to myself) that nothing is static and things constantly evolve. That is a good thing in many cases, static gets boring, evolving stays interesting. I pray that I don't 'open a can of worms' and only offer this as my impression and again, have no problem with what I see as the direction of the forum. I plan to stay around and contribute as much as possible in the future as well because 'I love it here.'

David Hostetler

07-20-2012, 3:50 PM

This is one of the lesser active forums I am on. Other forums have skyrocketed in participation over the last couple of years... The Creek just hasn't managed to keep pace I guess.

Ole Anderson

07-20-2012, 5:46 PM

Too many distractions in the summer for me. I surf the Creek, but seldom work on a project in the woodshop.

Denny Rice

07-20-2012, 6:31 PM

Damon,

I would have to agree with everything you just said. I do think one of the problems with traditional woodworking vs turning is the cost per project. Lets face it lumber of any type and size to build a traditional project can get quite expensive real quick where as you can resuce a piece of firewood chuck it in the lathe and make something very cool for not a lot of money. Once you have purchased a lathe, some tools, and a good grinder your set. I have recently found myself becoming very interested in turning and finially about 6 months ago purchased a new Jet 1642EVS, turning tools, and set up a 8" grinder with new wheels and a new One Way Wolverine system. I have found myself 80 percent of the time when I log onto SMC I go directly to the Turners forum. Lets just say once I got sucked into the cyclone I became hooked!

Mark Ashmeade

07-20-2012, 9:31 PM

Cody Colston

07-21-2012, 8:15 PM

This a very interesting thread. I, too, have watched this forum change since it's inception, as all forums do. People come and go for various reasons and the "core" group of any forum is constantly changing.

I think woodworking forums (probably all forums) have passed their peak of popularity. Members have grown much more knowledgeable in the craft and "which table saw should I buy" just doesn't get many people excited anymore. Besides, that icon of forum questions will now just end up in a discussion on the merits of a Sawstop vs any other brand.

In addition, this site has so many individual forums that activity is spread out much more than it was five years ago. General woodworking has become mostly the "tool collectors" forum but there is a lot of fine work still being displayed in the "turners" forum and in the "projects" forum.

SMC has to be THE most active woodworking site on the 'net. I don't know that it's ever been my favorite but it does have many, many talented members who offer great advice...if one can separate it from the plethora of the usual forum misinformation.

Scot wolf

07-21-2012, 8:33 PM

Keith Outten

07-22-2012, 12:47 AM

I'm not going to be popular for this, but here's my 2c on what's different about here:

1. Real names only. That most certainly doesn't suit everybody.
2. Intolerance of dissenting opinions. Everyone has to be happy and get along at all costs.
3. Overzealousness on the part of some moderators.
4. Tolerance of illiterate postings (and intolerance of those that point it out).
5. Two tier memberships, commercialization of content (eg selling attachment DVDs)

I have read some great advice on here, so I check in here and there, but other forums are also attractive.

I'll continue to be a member here, and contribute here and there, but the site doesn't draw me in for engaging discussion due to some of the points above. I wish it were more engaging.

You know the old saying that you cannot please all the people all the time, it is just as true here as it is everywhere. This is especially true of the real names requirement.
Most of the items on the list above are what the majority approve of here, I know this because they have been telling me so for almost ten years.
We don't require anyone to be happy but we do require that everyone here respects their peers. Clearly there is a way to provide a dissenting opinion and still be respectful of others, most of the Members of this Community prefer this approach.
Our Moderators are first and foremost Members of this Community. They know what the majority here expect and they do a great job but they can't please everyone all the time.
Illiteracy can be cured. It is considered a strong point here that we are patient with those who are just starting out and they are grateful to find a Community that doesn't chastise people for asking entry level questions. On the other hand it is common for some to leave The Creek when they reach an expert skill level while others stay to share their expertise with those who are new to The Creek and to woodworking.

In 2005 when we converted from a user supported Community to the commercial model we use today I was against the change. I begged the masses here to help me support The Creek financially so we could keep our Community free of advertising and outside influence. There was an overwhelming majority here that preferred advertising pay the bills and through the years the cost to run The Creek has risen each and every year. Our mix of funding sources is what saved us three years ago when we lost almost all of our advertisers when the economy fell on its face. Specifically what saved our bacon was Contributor donations and the sales of DVD's, hats, etc. FWIW I am in the process of purchasing our fourth server, this one will be much more expensive than I anticipated it would be at this point in time. It won't break our piggy bank but it will consume a serious percentage of our funds. It requires a lot of 50 cent per month donations and the majority of our advertising budget to pay the bills and save for new hardware and software.

It's been awhile since I evaluated our position against similar woodworking sites, we were over three times the size of the number two woodworking site at the time. The majority here would deduce from the numbers that we have been tremendously successful pleasing most of the people most of the time.
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Richard Dragin

07-22-2012, 10:07 AM

For the last year or two it seems there is less activity here than on the other forum I frequent. I attribute it to the vanilla flavor of the creek for some of the reasons posted above.

Do a Google search of "woodworking forum" and see if you get the surprising results that I do:
Woodworking Talk as the first two hits? It has to be the lamest of all the forums with little activity and not many informed members. The owner obviously knows how to game the system.

Two other popular forums and then the Creek.

I am really skeptical of the posted numbers here for "members currently online" at any one time.

HANK METZ

07-22-2012, 10:55 AM

Keith Outten

07-22-2012, 1:36 PM

Here are some stats that are from an independent web site:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/sawmillcreek.org - SawMIll Creek has a US Ranking of 12,925

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/woodnet.net - Woodnet has a US Ranking of 40,588

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/woodcentral.com - Wood Central has a US Ranking of 47,182

Basically there are only 12,924 web sites in the United States that are more popular than SawMill Creek Woodworkers Forums. We will most likely hit two million posts early in 2013.
Google is rated number 1.
Microsoft is rated 31.
Ford.com is rated 881.

Woodworking Talk is at the top of the search page because they are a paid advertiser.
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Damon Stathatos

07-22-2012, 2:15 PM

re: item 1.

A very rational point of view when today, your online social networking presence is used to evaluate your suitability for making rake handles as well as being a C.F.O.

- Beachside Hank

I'm guessing that if I were applying for a job making rake handles, my identifiable posts here would be a benefit, no ?

Going out on a limb here, I'm assuming that the requirement for real names is in an effort to keep discourse civil. Hiding behind assumed monikers is exactly what fosters out of control forum posts which most of the time spiral into the sewer, taking the entire forum right along with it, as far as I'm concerned. (Disclaimer: I am not implying that other woodworking forums are 'in the sewer.')

In another post here today, Glenn Bradley has related a visit to my shop yesterday. This is the only forum I have ever been a part of where I have become friends and personally met with fellow members. I wrote in that post that I also expect a visit from Bill Wyko (lives in Tucson but traveling in the area here) and possibly a lunch with Sam Layton down the road. I somehow just don't think that I'd be as open to meeting up with 'Stubfinger x5' or 'Ragin Cajun' or whatever. Actually, scanning through one of the forums just now, I notice a 'Nocrapman.' Probably a nice enough guy, but I think I'll pass on the meeting.

Lastly, Keith - you've got thirteen thousand sites ahead of you? Get to work, man, quit lollygagging around. I'd hate to run that analysis on my site, it'd be too depressing.

ian maybury

07-22-2012, 3:17 PM

It's hard to eliminate the effects of the change in one's own outlook and knowledge as a factor, but my sense too is that the nature and quality of posting if not the quantity has reduced over the past few years.

When I looked in first there seemed to be lots of in depth discussion of substantial projects and real project issues, plus more in depth knowledge of machines, equipment and engineering/technical issues, and of more sophisticated techniques. Like a significant proportion of the posters were experienced woodworkers - with some professionals in the mix too.

My impression is that there's much less of that now, and many more posts of a beginner/fairly superficial nature. There's a definite flavour of the DIY forum that's come in i think, at least in the workshop and general sections where i mostly hang out.

There seems to be a lot of 'churn' or passing traffic and not much community either. (beyond a few long term core individuals) In that putting up information week after week on the same topics (e.g. aspects of dust system design) seems mostly to get individuals that post for a week or two sorted out, but results in minimal information being retained/few regular posters staying around long enough for this to happen. The same basic questions keep on popping up week after week, with no sign of any awareness that the issues have long since been covered.

Perhaps it's a cyclical issue. I've a workbench build under way for example, but the topic seems rarely to come up now and anyway was to quite some extent talked to death with the Roubo wave of a few years ago. I could post, but feel there may not be a lot on interest in that most for whom it was a live topics have built theirs.

ian

Paul McGaha

07-22-2012, 4:23 PM

Here at SMC I think everyone has the right to post their point of view so long as they are respectful about it. I have some comments below in blue.

I'm not going to be popular for this, but here's my 2c on what's different about here:

1. Real names only. That most certainly doesn't suit everybody. Why is this an issue? It's a SMC rule.
2. Intolerance of dissenting opinions. Everyone has to be happy and get along at all costs. No, Everyone has to be respectful.
3. Overzealousness on the part of some moderators. I've never seen that one time. In fact I think they're very patient.
4. Tolerance of illiterate postings (and intolerance of those that point it out). It would be great if all the postings were accurate and nothing ever needed to be corrected I guess. The corrections are needed. Just need to be done in a respectful way.
5. Two tier memberships, commercialization of content (eg selling attachment DVDs) I don't see why this would be an issue either. I'm happy being a contributor. Not more or less. I didn't know Sawmill Creek sold DVD's?

I have read some great advice on here, so I check in here and there, but other forums are also attractive.

I'll continue to be a member here, and contribute here and there, but the site doesn't draw me in for engaging discussion due to some of the points above. I wish it were more engaging.

I'm glad you like it here Mark. I do too. I learn a lot from reading the threads and also sending PM's to creekers asking their advice on subjects like sharpening, care of cast iron tops, etc. I've never had a creeker not due his best to answer a question I asked. I find it very helpful.

PHM

scott vroom

07-22-2012, 4:43 PM

I think this site would benefit from adding a new forum category: cabinet making. There are a number of talented cabinet makers here and by creating a separate 'cabinet making' forum you'll get faster and more focused answers to cabinet-specific questions.

Matt Day

07-22-2012, 4:45 PM

This is still my favorite ww'ing forum by far. I think everytime I fire up the internet I go to Craigslist to scan the tools section, then to SMC to see what's going on in my favorite forums. The amount of knowledge here is amazing, and I think we should thank everyone for participating more often.

I think the main thing that I've noticed that has changed in the last 5 years or so is that there are far less posts in the Deals and Discounts forum, but that's surely a factor of the economy.

Keep it up SMC!

Larry Edgerton

07-22-2012, 6:21 PM

I notice that there are fewer and fewer pros on the forum. It is their opinions that I look for. Not sure of the reason, but I have an idea as I do not post as much lately myself.

And yes, as much as I hate to say it, a lot of people need to use the search function before posting the same question that has been answered a thousand times. Do the search, then ask specific questions if you still need help......

Which drill press should I buy?

Router vs Shaper?

Sawstop VS the World?

I don't waste my time responding to any question that has been answered over and over and over again. The other thing about that laziness is that it polutes the search function itself with too many of the same questions until it gets to the point that it is really inefficient.

I'm just about over it, but its a habit now, log in my time,Craigslist, then the Creek.

Larry

Richard Wolf

07-22-2012, 9:15 PM

I come on at least once a day, but I agree with Larry. How many times can you read a thread about, "I have $1,000 dollars and want to equipment my shop." There are a lot of great craftsmen on here and a lot of good information. It's just a little annoying to sort through the stuff that I no longer want to read.
But I also understand that there are always new people to the craft that need help. It's like the magazine industry, very few years the same articles resurface, you just have to process out the information that no longer becomes relevant to you.

Jim Becker

07-22-2012, 9:35 PM

Jim Becker for one is seldome on here but I think he has gotten a promotion at his place of employment. .

Don, I'm here frequently, if not daily, doing my "moderator thing" (mostly moving stuff around so the original posters can't find it :D) and commenting when I feel I have something to add to the conversation. My "free time" is divided between equestrian activities, woodworking when I have time, dealing with some family medical issues and trying to maintain our property. I'm also a moderator at an equestrian forum much like this...trying to keep thousands of my virtual girlfriends in line. :) Most of my projects over the past three years have been tack trunk commissions, but I have a whole list of projects for the house that are soon to start, including a new kitchen table and hopefully, a wonderful dining table. I may even try to get the Nakashima "Mira" style chairs I started back in 2003 completed.

No promotion, but for the last three years my job did change from running around the globe to focusing on a few large federal customers. Life goes on... ;)

-----

Forum communities fluctuate seasonally as well as generally over time. New people come in and some move on, either because they no longer are pursuing the activity of woodworking like they were or for a variety of other reasons. But the true test of a community like this is how it weathers these changes over time. When I shared a meal with Keith and Jackie a couple weeks ago when I was down their way on business, we talked a lot about this. SMC has grown, changed and adapted over the ten years or so it's been online and it's better than ever!

Matt Meiser

07-22-2012, 10:20 PM

No promotion, but for the last three years my job did change from running around the globe to focusing on a few large federal customers. Life goes on... ;)

Wow, who did you tick off? :D

Mark Ashmeade

07-22-2012, 10:25 PM

Re my point #1, a case in point was a thread a few months ago about Sawstop, and product approvals. I get involved in that process quite a bit in my work. However, if I have information to contribute, whether my experiences are good, bad or indifferent with an equipment vendor or test laboratory, I can't post about it under my own name. So as much as it is a rule at SMC, and I abide by it, there is one example of why it limits discussion.

The point about social networking is also well made. I don't do much of that, but there is certainly a privacy issue there.

Being ex-military, perhaps I am paranoid about PERSEC, but a conservative approach to that aspect of life has kept me alive and in a job so far, so it works for me. I can see why there are reasons to deny anonymity, although there are mitigation strategies to those issues too.

My other issues are perhaps subjective.

At the end of the day, it's Keith's train set, and he's done well. Nothing more to say, really.

John Fabre

07-23-2012, 2:05 AM

This is a great place with great people, i'm here for life. Yes, I seldom post, but I read them daily with my kids who enjoy it too.

You're right Jim, SMC has grown and it is better than ever!

Keith and the Moderator's are doing an excellent job, thanks for all you do.

ian maybury

07-23-2012, 6:21 AM

Second bite on the topic.

Don't think it's a matter of it being a good or 'bad' forum - it's hard to see how it could be better run than it is. Plus it has an enormously high level of participation, and a typically friendly, positive and helpful vibe.

It seems more likely that the (perceived) shift in topic type (and that's if it's not a vagary of perception/viewpoint) is a result of some sort of natural cycle/evolution going down.

We've already discussed the possibility of short terms cycles of interest in specific topics, plus the presence of fewer experienced woodworkers.

There's been a seemingly similar movement in the mags towards lighter and more basic topics and the pedantic explaining of the obvious - but that's a different situation in that it's there clearly the result of editorial decisions. What's not so clear is whether they are tracking a genuine shift in the market, or if it's just marketing strategy. (in that by definition there's more potential customers lower down in the pyramid)

The machine and equipment industries have headed down this road too with the advent of relatively cheaper but typically lower quality stuff coming out of the East.

Hopefully there's not been a die off of lifetime woodworkers - but that's possible too judging by the age profile of many mag contributors. As in as many fade out perhaps there's not enough committed hobbyists/small but specialist professionals coming through to replace them.

One thing that from observation definitely seems to be true right across the western world (but it's been happening since the 1980s) is that successive generations are far less interested than was the case in anything that requires serious effort or commitment. They are more interested in pure entertainment. There's still of course a minority of professional/dedicated types, but most will will dabble in whatever lifestyle for a bit and move on. You see it in sports and hobbies as a falling away of interest in e.g. competitive stuff, high levels of turnover in participation and consequent lower levels of expertise.

There's also the little matter of the major economic recession (depression?) that's currently in full swing. Over here we've seen sharp reductions in living standards, and a lot more people focused almost entirely on simple financial survival. Which inevitably must reduce participation and scale down the sort of projects and purchases undertaken. There must be many newly arrived in DIY that previously would not have been. Not to mention that the small professionals may have become more concerned with making a living than posting on forums.

It's not clear what's cause and what's effect, but perhaps these trends are reinforcing each other and really starting to bite now - to create relatively far more new and much more casual/recreationally oriented woodworkers. Whose posts may have swamped those by the professional/semi professional element, and perhaps led to the latter losing interest and falling away.

Call it what you will (all interest groups have to be looked after, and there's limits to what any forum can do in the face of social trends) - but I'm all for anything the forum can do to maintain the interest of the serious hobbyist/small professional strata....

ian

Bill ThompsonNM

07-23-2012, 7:39 AM

Speaking to some of Ian's points, it would be interesting to have some idea of the age distribution on this forum. Perhaps a poll with age groups? Could be anonymous...
When I have attended woodworking club meetings or even national events... It sure appears that the majority of attendees are fast approaching retirement or retired already. Perhaps, though, in poor economic times, younger participants are so much more limited in their time available as they work to make a living.

As to less professionals on the forum, I don't think it's just the occasional "contractor bashing" which has rightfully disturbed Larry, I think to keep afloat in this economy, the time for participation in this forum may not be available ( and I for one am even more appreciative of those pro's who do participate).

Ole Anderson

07-23-2012, 9:39 AM

What keeps me here rather than on the other 2 forums Keith noted in his statistics is, first and foremost, how well this site is run and moderated, second, the sheer volume of topics posted daily, roughly 3 times the next WW web site and third, the use of the vBulletin forum engine. Seems like when I go on other forums, I seldom see the web site owner participating in the discussions. Here Keith almost seems like a friend I have seen him post so much. I go to one of the other sites, and in 2 minutes I am done, here I am typically logged in for at least a half hour a day, mostly reading. And when I go to another site without vBulletin I feel like I am looking at TV in black and white, particularly the TetraBB system WoodCentral uses. I want HD!

Cary Falk

07-23-2012, 9:55 AM

Carl Beckett

07-23-2012, 10:00 AM

For me, this is perhaps my favorite community web site. People are friendly (with the occasional heated debate that might need pulled in a little but this is healthy), VERY knowledgeable and willing to help, and positive/encouraging (even if I post a complete piece of crap I built - I will still get some encouraging words like "keep trying!, you will get better with practice!") :)

An example: I recently posted a question about a replacement conveyor belt for a sander. On Amazon, they didnt have the right size, and the size they did have was $60 to $80.

In one post a supplier was shared and I had a new one in two days. Custom fit. And the cost was.... $10. (are you kidding, $10!!)

Not to mention all the learnings about setting up and using hand tools (even though I know there on the neander group they would prefer if I didnt own any power tools, the knowledge is amazing and very helpful to learn). And finishing.

And I now consider myself pretty knowledgeable about which band saw is best (I just dont know why this is useful to me). Although I will say, I still dont know which dust collection system I should buy.

Personally I appreciate the moderators, and all the work and thought they put into making this a useful forum. I have been on others where - primarily due to lack of moderation - they have been taken over by a small minority that want it a certain way and drove everyone else away (quite rudely). Woodworkers can be cantankerous old bastards with 'opinions' mirroring religion...... someone has to keep it in check.

All this at $6. (actually, I bump this up a bit - no law says you have to give the minimum).

Did I mention that it was only $6 to become a contributor? ($6 - approximately the price of a beer at the airport)

Matt McColley

07-23-2012, 10:28 AM

Coincidentally, there have been several threads recently over on Lumber Jocks complaigning about trolls, political rants and blatant religious hate speach. Also, some of the threads are defacto "chat rooms".

So all that "traffic" is not necessarilly "wood working related traffic"...

Moderated forums inevitably get accused of censorship and denial of free speach.

Requiring people to use there real names (or at least a real sounding name) has a sobering effect on the tone of the rhetoric... one that is for the better imo.

It's a great big world, and there's room for different types of woodworking forums.

I find myself coming to SMC more often lately.

I do find the pace moves a little more slowly, but then again... I can always search up topics with a LOT of posts.

Don Selke

07-23-2012, 2:13 PM

Jim: Thanks for the up-date. One final comment on the subject of the forum is that I guess I really miss the personal relationships and the camaraderie that the early posters had with one another. I know that times change and people move on to other ventures and interests. As forums get larger their themes have to adjust with the expansion. As one gets older change gets harder to accept.

Jim Becker

07-25-2012, 3:04 PM

Wow, who did you tick off?

LOL Nobody. In fact, I came out on the good side of things compared to some folks who, like in many companies, became, um...redundant. And I already made my number for this year. :D It's been an interesting experience, that's for sure!

Jim Becker

07-25-2012, 3:10 PM

Moderated forums inevitably get accused of censorship and denial of free speach.

The reality is...there is no right to "free speech" on a privately owned forum. The owner's rules are the owner's rules and when we sign up to participate, we actively agree to abide by those rules when we "check the little box" to acknowledge the same. There are a great many folks out there that don't seem to understand that critical point or forget that they did that when they signed up. Or maybe didn't even read what they were agreeing to... ;) For US Citizens, the right to free speech only applies in the public purview, not in private places.

I do agree with you that the real names requirement (even though it's occasionally abused...;)) does help moderate things to a certain extent. At least until someone forgets what I just mentioned in the first paragraph. :D

Matt McColley

07-25-2012, 3:47 PM

For US Citizens, the right to free speech only applies in the public purview

Well, if anyone ever bothers to read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers (which explain the thoughts of some of the key founding fathers) you'll have a hard time arguing that "free speach" applies to anything other than "political speach" in the public purview.... but thanks to some guys in black robes, it now means that you can go topless on Miami beach .... not that there's anything wrong with that (Seinfield joke) :^)

Note that my comment was that moderators get "accused of" such mischief.

Trust me.... I'm a big fan of private property rights... and in my house, it's my rules...

Obviously (to me at least) SMC is not my house... though I'm happy to be a house guest :^)

I just find it ironic that what some woodworkers complaign about at one site on Monday, they complaing about just the opposite at another site on Tuesday..... Who'd of thunk it?

;^)

scott vroom

07-25-2012, 4:23 PM

Did I mention already that it would be nice if this site had a "Cabinet Making" forum?

Mel Fulks

07-25-2012, 4:55 PM

I am new to computor but have worked in trade a long time .I am going to try to make some posts about things I heard from an expert that I was unable to find in print.ok ,to every one plagued with planer and jointer tear out .Before you go spiral , order a set of M2 or T1 knives ,you will see a big difference.There is a lot more to the cutting qualities of steel beyond Rockwell hardness .Many good machines are sold new with low grade steel . Unfortunatly a lot of steel sold as high speed is actually semi high speed .There is a difference.

Peter Quinn

07-25-2012, 5:49 PM

Did I mention already that it would be nice if this site had a "Cabinet Making" forum?

I like this idea, though I do wonder if it would initially get enough traffic to make it interesting. Turners have their own forum, instrument makers, neanders, why did case work get over looked? How did cabinet making get bundled with power tools and general wood working?

Glenn Ancona

07-25-2012, 8:37 PM

logged on to "the creek " and entered my 1st post on 11/11/11 - Its a great site !
We ARE a small shop and happy to say it. Despite all the recession / depression talk there are some of us woodworkers that are still going strong!
Myself, as well as fellow full time hardcore woodworkers ( 50 + hrs a week ) had never even heard of a tersa head or some of the other products being discussed or reviewed here by people spending far less time at their machines then we are. The PM's and the honest opinions I have recieved have been most valuble. They have helped with decisions that would be otherwise left without a second guess. When you head to the shop at 7 am and some times dont close up till late there is little time for R and D. Thanks to all posters during my short time here, especially those who have taken the time to respond in depth to my PMs and questions and concerns. Since I cant get out of the woods more often I'm glad for a forum such as this.
I second Scotts request for the cabinet making forum.

Glenn

Keith Outten

07-26-2012, 6:24 AM

Concerning a new cabinet making forum we would be glad to create any forum requested provided there is a sufficient number of people who are interested.
There have already been complaints in this thread that we already have to many forums and we don't want to host an empty forum.

Create a new thread in the GWW forum and ask everyone to vote.
.

Keith Outten

07-26-2012, 6:35 AM

I would like to remind everyone once again that I don't make the rules here.
Myself and our Staff of Moderators simply enforce the rules that this Community has established.

In a nutshell the majority here make the rules, its been that way since the very first day.
The reason SawMill Creek is so popular is that we are a Community that is based on majority rule.
We don't allow individuals or small groups to influence our Community standards.
.

Van Huskey

07-26-2012, 6:36 AM

LIL. I have noticed across the forums that I visit that the overall tone has changed over the last 3 or so years. There seems to be a lot of angry people that come to forums to argue. I have seriously thought about taking a break. Maybe others have also.

Two of the forums I visit but rarely post on allow politics in the off topic area. The problem is the anger spills over into the woodworking area, for a long time I never understood why certain people seemed to really dislike each other and argue at every chance, one day just for fun I spent a few minutes in off topic and it became clear, they had differing political views. The internet is a poor vehicle for political discussions! I ahve never had an issue talking politics with folks, one of my neighbors is the guy in the neighborhood nobody will talk politics with even the ones that agree with him. Despite having 180 degree differing views a couple of times a month we sit out on the dock and talk politics and drink beer, we rarely agrre but have never had a harsh word between us, and have one of the strongest friendships in the neighborhood, but if it was over the internet we would HATE each other I am guessing. Bottom line the moderations here may seem harsh sometimes BUT it keeps any bad feelings at a minimum and without it anger can ruin a forum!