Agazanni in liquidation

[David Kumm]

Maybe old news but Agi has been in liquidation and it appears to be permanent. Dave

[Joshua Davis]

David - what does this mean? When the current inventory is gone, will they be done as a brand?

[David Kumm]

I don't know the technicalities of Italian law but generally a liquidation means all attempts to sell or refinance have been exhausted and assets are sold. Most bandsaw parts can be sourced elsewhere or made but there won't be any new machines produced unless something changes. they were a pretty small company that made a great product. Knapp did the same thing a few years ago. They were small and couldn't upgrade their manufacturing or "value eingineer" to compete and selling through a dealer network didn't help either. Woodworking doesn't do a good job of attracting the affluent to the hobby so the high end hobby market is pretty thin. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Heard the rumblings about a year ago. I'll just say this: It's very tough to be a manufacturer that builds only one machine and then depend on dealers to be your marketing.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Tekin]

Wow...this sucks. Erik and David, you are both 100% correct.

[Erik Loza]

Dave, it looks like your PM box is full.

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[John Coloccia]

My take on it is this: I know a good number of people that have bought new MM and Laguna machines. I know a ton that have bought used MM and Agazanni machines. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that has bought a new Agazanni machine. I don't know the reason. I lean towards MM myself without really having anything bad to say about Agazanni. Maybe I just feel like MM has a stronger presence in North America. I don't even know if that's true, but that's generally my impression. I wonder how much of Agazanni's business was from North America?

[Erik Loza]

John, I can tell you that we are the largest vendor for Italian bandsaws in the US and at one point, the US Domestic Market accounted for 30% of exports from our Centauro (MM-series) production line. Now, with the economy like it is, that percentage has changed but the point being, the point which Dave brought up earlier, is that when you are the most expensive in a niche market and are not willing/able to do things to remain current, then it's easy to see how having all your eggs in one basket could be a slippery situation.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jeff Duncan]

Erik, just out of curiosity what percentage of the high dollar bandsaws go to the hobby market vs the commercial? I'm thinking hobbyists are probably still spending money vs businesses which are probably not. Well at least not investing as much in the classical machines as they are CNC and such? So many shops have closed up they've left a plethora of used equipment on the market. Add that to the slow sales from the last few years and I'm thinking there's not a lot of business for selling expensive bandsaws to commercial shops and schools. Without those outlets your sales are going to be limited I would think:confused:

I'm thinking there are still more casualties yet to come. With both North America and Europe going through this economic downturn at the same time.....I wouldn't be optimistic as a manufacturer:(

JeffD

[Van Huskey]

First, if true (I only say if true since although I am 100% sure Dave wouldn't say it unless he was 100% sure I haven't seen any independent verification) it is a sad day. Second, it would have to be tough being a small manufacturer with a dealer network and lets face it Eagle tools despite their excelent CS was/is horrible at promoting the Agazzani saws outside their telephone and brick and mortor, which speaks to John's point. Third, the economic situation in Europe can't be helping any of these companies and although not Greece, Italy cetainly isn't unscathed. Fourth, even when woodworking attracts some affluent woodworkers (I have several MD friends who are woodworkers but strangely no JD friends that are) it doesn't sell to them. My doc friends that woodwork tend to own a Sawstop, Festool then the usual Asian mid-level stuff, one does own a Laguna LT18 but bought it after a Maloof Rocker class. There seem to be lots of reasons but too many for this thread, suffice it to say when they open up a golf magazine they are bombarded with $1,000+ drivers and when they look at a car magazine they see pages and pages of new Ferraris, Porche GT2/3, BMW M cars, Mercedes AMG and even Veryons. Open up a woodworking magazine and see the low end except for a small ad from the juggernaught of Euro machines advertising Felder/Hammer and larger ad from Laguna with mostly their Asian machines. What I am saying is the "teenagers" of woodworking have "posters" of Asian machines above their "beds" since that is all they are being exposed to, well unless they visit the forums.

To Jeff, I bet hobbyists and studio craftsman buy a BIG percentage of bandsaws given the CNC direction industry is taking.

The bottom line when a company like Altendorf feels the need to have part of their line built in Asia it says something.

[Joshua Davis]

I sure hope Agazzani isn't going away. Less competition in an already specialized niche is rarely a good thing for the consumer.

[Will Rowland]

It's pretty impossible to be a successful business the size of Agazzani in Italy right now. The government has begun imposing unbelievable "fairness" regulations (e.g., every 13th employee must be disabled), and banks are simply not lending at all to small and medium-sized business. If you don't have enough capital to build and hold inventory - i.e., you have to rely instead on a line of credit - you are pretty much finished as a going concern in Italy.

I have some customers in the manufacturing business in Italy, and I really fear for their future.

[Jim Matthews]

These things are built like the Leksell Gamma Knife - few moving parts, nearly zero failure on the assemblies and experienced users own them.

In short, once you've sold one to a high end customer, they'll not likely need another.
We used to joke that if we sold enough of the Gamma Knives to satisfy the home office the Eastern Seaboard would sink into the sea.

On cursory examination it would appear that the Agazzani saws were built for a market that no longer exists.

[Herr Dalbergia]

I own two big bandsaw, a german made Bäuerle BS 70 from 1964 and a italien made Meber SR 600. Both bought used. They cost me together less than my 5 Woodmaster CT blades, or wait...more or less the same. Here in Germany I could buy 10 big bandsaws and still would spent less than if I bought one new. Nobody beside us freaks is interested in bandsaws anymore, well at least not the traditional ones. It is even worse, here in Germany we had for more than 100 years a big traditon in building quite good woodworking machines. Bäuerle, Kölle, Frommia, Aldinger, Stehle, and so on, I could name much more. They all went, more or less, valid or are producing something else now. We also had at least one carpenter in every village, now we have an IKEA in every village. Of course there are still high quality bandsaws produced in Germany, by one company, HEMA. The second hand market is full with very fine machines for a very good price. Still, some people want a new machine, out of what reasons ever, but they are not willing to pay 8000 euros for a Hema. Their limit is 1000, perhaps 2000. So they will go with a product from far east. Jim Matthews nailed it down, the market is no longer existing, at least not in Europe. It is more or less the same with everything here...TVs, computers, guitars...I think this is sometimes called globalization....the only thing we still have is our car-industry and our machine-engineering. Very sad for every kind of company with tradition and knowledge that has to close their doors, just because some company can produce it a little bit cheaper and quite a bit lower quality in the far east. My first bandsaw was a Chinese Made No Name machine. Cost me 1000euro, me having no experience with bandsaws at all. It was so bad and low quality, I did not even want it back as a gift. Sold it, lost lost of money. Lesson learned.

cheers, alex

[Jeff Duncan]

when they open up a golf magazine they are bombarded with $1,000+ drivers and when they look at a car magazine they see pages and pages of new Ferraris, Porche GT2/3, BMW M cars, Mercedes AMG and even Veryons. Open up a woodworking magazine and see the low end except for a small ad from the juggernaught of Euro machines advertising Felder/Hammer and larger ad from Laguna with mostly their Asian machines.



Only one thing I'll point out....some of the high end machinery manufacturers do advertise in magazines....though probably not the ones most here are familiar with. There are several trade mags which are free if you have a business, which still have advertisements for "the good stuff";) They would likely be boring as heck for the casual guy though as they focus on business stories with no "projects" or "how to's"! Basically manufacturers are spending their advertising dollars where they think they'll be effective!

As for teenagers, all I can say is if they have posters of woodworking machines over their beds.....there's a bigger problem:eek: I love my machines, but Cathy Ireland and Heather Locklear were on my walls:D

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I can remember discussing the hospitality trade with a friend from Italy when I was in that business, and the approach there was considerably different from here in the US. Say a hotel was not at full capacity, in the slower seasons. Here, they typically lower rates to reflect the lower demand and try to stimulate full capacity. In Italy I'm told it was more typical to determine how much revenue was required to operate, divide that by the number of occupants, and charge that room rate. Yes, when things get slow prices go up to cover costs. I remember asking "And that does't lead to bankruptcy?" and being told "One road may lead to poverty, the other to bankruptcy, you have to choose which road to take and stick with it." I didn't see Agazzani advertising any big sales with deep discounts, and would't expect to frankly.

I find the loss of a top manufacturer disturbing both as a market indicator and for the loss of competition. But on a personal level, it means little to me. I've never used or even seen one of their saws in a shop I've worked in or visited. If I didn't lurk here, I'd probably never have heard of them, but I've certainly heard of SCMI, Minimax, Meber, Laguna, Tannewitz, etc. They weren't exactly masters of marketing in the industry. The scariest part of owning any Italian machine is the parts network. Good industrial machines don't break that often even in industrial settings IME, but when they do, if you need them for a living, you need parts quickly. I know parts pronto is pretty responsive, and you will hear guys tell you to stick to SCMI because they have made a major effort to support their machines in North America. I don't have a sense of how other Italian manufacturers do as far as support, but I do know that whether valid or not, prejudice does exist. Its not that Asian parts delivery is perceived to be any better, but some how guys are more forgiving when the price is so much less.

Perhaps the operation is salable, or is it really beyond that at this stage?

[Peter Quinn]

As for teenagers, all I can say is if they have posters of woodworking machines over their beds.....there's a bigger problem:eek: I love my machines, but Cathy Ireland and Heather Locklear were on my walls:D

JeffD

As a teenager I had a poster of a 1967 Pontiac GTO, Candy Apple Red, white convertible top, over my bed. No girl in the picture, I was a purest. I figure all these years later, with the right care and maintenance, the GTO still looks as good as the day it rolled out of the factory. And unlike the posters of Heather Locklear, I stood a fighting chance of actually getting a GTO if I played my cards right. Priorities have surely changed since then for me. My wife through out my GTO poster after banning it to the basement (she claims the glass got "broken" on accident and tore the poster, I'm pretty sure she disliked the competition.....) At this point I think I'd rather have the BS poster hanging in the shop, because it is an object whose objectification will raise no complaints from any quarter, save as a reminder of obsessive or hyper focused behavior. Should I choose to put bikini posters up in the shop, well, then I have to hear it from my wife, later my daughter, clients.....yes, the machine art is a much safer bet at this point.

[Stephen Cherry]

All I can say, is look at the Griz. They actually have a website and catalog where they tell you the prices! So does felder.

Then look at the agazanni, minimax, etc websites, no pricing whatsoever. Without a price, how do you even know if a product is possible to purchase, or if you would want it for what they are asking. As a consumer with a demonstrated history of buying stuff that I like, all I can say is that the mystery pricing game is a recipe for failure. Plus, I don't like the feeling that the pricing is variable, depending on factors out of your control.

[joe milana]

All I can say, is look at the Griz. They actually have a website and catalog where they tell you the prices! So does felder.

Then look at the agazanni, minimax, etc websites, no pricing whatsoever. Without a price, how do you even know if a product is possible to purchase, or if you would want it for what they are asking. As a consumer with a demonstrated history of buying stuff that I like, all I can say is that the mystery pricing game is a recipe for failure. Plus, I don't like the feeling that the pricing is variable, depending on factors out of your control.


I couldn't agree more, and is the reason I went elsewhere when I purchased a bandsaw, and I know others that feel and have done the same.

[Jeff Monson]

I couldn't agree more, and is the reason I went elsewhere when I purchased a bandsaw, and I know others that feel and have done the same.

Same here, I found it easy to get a price.....but I'd like to see an advertised price for the Aggi and Minimax as well on their websites. It may not be the best price they will do, but at least get a ballpark for a guy.

I feel bad for Jesse at Eagle tools loosing the line. There again I feel he should have gotten a website up and running that would have greatly increased his traffic.

[David Kumm]

I think the small machine manufacturer and the dealer model will struggle in the hobby or light commercial market. The Grizzly model of low outsourced labor or the Felder model of highly automated manufacturing sold direct to the consumer are what will likely dominate. Tough to lose the small guys. They kept the big guys on their toes. Dave

[John Coloccia]

If I had known what an MM16 cost, I would have had that in my shop instead of my Grizzly. It's more, but it wasn't a ridiculous amount more in the long run.

[ian maybury]

I'd agree 100% on the problems in accessing capital - it's the same here in ireland.

A further issue impacting professional woodworking machinery sales has probably been the advent in recent years of high end flat pack kitchen and bedroom furniture produced on capital intensive highly automated CNC systems. That and the fact that even quite small guys are now headed down the CNC route.

We've seen a huge sell off of used traditional woodworking machinery for pin money here since the boom collapsed in 2008. The country was full of guys making kitchens and related cabinetry, but most have gone out of business.

The slightly used 24in Agazzani I bought two years ago came for about half the new price - and TBH only for it feeling like it would have been taking unfair advantage the price could have been driven down further...

ian

[mreza Salav]

Minimax used to have prices on their website until a couple of years ago and I really disliked it when they replaced it with "pricing varies".

[Joshua Davis]

Minimax will let you know what full retail price is if you call. As near as I can tell, the "pricing varies" thing only applies to future increases. I am looking currently and will probably go Laguna, Felder or used at this point.

[Van Huskey]

Only one thing I'll point out....some of the high end machinery manufacturers do advertise in magazines....though probably not the ones most here are familiar with. There are several trade mags which are free if you have a business, which still have advertisements for "the good stuff";) They would likely be boring as heck for the casual guy though as they focus on business stories with no "projects" or "how to's"! Basically manufacturers are spending their advertising dollars where they think they'll be effective!


JeffD

This is true but trade mags don't often get in the hands of "affluent" woodworkers, if one is affluent and gets the trade rags, they probably have already been exposed to the good stuff.

[David Kumm]

Minimax will let you know what full retail price is if you call. As near as I can tell, the "pricing varies" thing only applies to future increases. I am looking currently and will probably go Laguna, Felder or used at this point.

Josh, no dog in this fight but MM and Felder are the picks of the litter here. You will be doing yourself a disservice to not compare the two. crappy website has nothing to do with machine quality. In the combo world there are no other choices of equal or better quality here in the US. Dave

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This thread appears to give an explanation to Agazzani... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?189393-Agazzani-is-moving-to-Germany!

[John Coloccia]

That's excellent news. Glad to see that they'll end up in Germany. It would be hard to imagine where else they could go right now.

[Van Huskey]

The no price on the MM site is due to some areas in NA being handled by dealers now. There is no questtion Felder and Laguna do a better job at marketing but over the years I have grown more and more fond of SCMI and as most know would pick a MM over the others across almost the full BS range. Felder does do a much better job catering to the low end of the market than SCMI does though. MM is but a tiny niche for SCMI and they tend to treat the marketing like the bigger industrial machines, Felder being much smaller than SCMI is much more aggresive.

[Van Huskey]

This thread appears to give an explanation to Agazzani... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?189393-Agazzani-is-moving-to-Germany!

Excellent news, I hope it continues to work for Jesse!

[Glenn Ancona]

my AGGI 24 / 24 is on the truck from Cali as we speak - should be hear on Monday.

[David Kumm]

The really good news here is we are talking Panhans which if it is still the same has always been "almost Martin". The company assets are being liquidated and the plant closed. Panhans likely bought the rights to the name, designs, drawings, and any "patent like" protections to be able to make their own saws using as much or as little of the Agazzani methods as they choose. Had the buyer been Jet, or the guy who bought Oliver we would have no reason for relief. Panhans has not had much of a presence here in the US but hopefully that will change. Dave

[Roger Savatteri]

Everyone, please refer to my posting in this thread, it will dispel all rumors,,,,,,,,

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?189393-Agazzani-is-moving-to-Germany!

[Mark Davis PDX]

I'm glad I decided on Minimax; although, I wouldn't say they are perfect either...

I bought an MM-24 (arrived as S600p) in April...delivery was delayed several times - ran out of stock of the 7.5HP motors, etc...finally took delivery in July...and it still isn't up and running because I'm waiting on some parts (from Italy) that were damaged in transit...the thing was crated very poorly -- I'm really surprised 100% of the people are not getting their machines damaged in transit...On the top of my machine, the paint job is a real mess -- spots everywhere...that was not a thing that happened in transit, but rather a bad paint job. My blade guards were heavily scratched, etc...There are holes in the top of the machine and apparently they no longer supply plugs for them, so you get a dust cloud when running it...

I hope I get to start it up this month...and I hope it isn't damaged in ways I'm unaware of.

My comparo of Minimax vs. Agazzani:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgmGAGH-3ZildE9oNVZNckNVOC05ZTBkdFNDeHVKSXc

[Stephen Cherry]

Agazzani- I've got a machine about 10 years old, and it has held up very well. Really no build quality issues at all. And mainly, no weirdness; just put in the blade, tighten it up, and cut.

That said, If I were buying new, I would look long and hard at the felder bandsaws. I've seen them in their showroom and they looked very nicely put together, and they have people and some parts in Delaware. For used, there is lots of iron popping up. My feeling is that 700 dollars, and a couple tanks of gas could get you a lifetime machine, with money left over for blades, etc. Also, the number one rule, in bandsaws, size does matter.

[Mark Davis PDX]

Agazzani- I've got a machine about 10 years old, and it has held up very well. Really no build quality issues at all. And mainly, no weirdness; just put in the blade, tighten it up, and cut.

That said, If I were buying new, I would look long and hard at the felder bandsaws. I've seen them in their showroom and they looked very nicely put together, and they have people and some parts in Delaware. For used, there is lots of iron popping up. My feeling is that 700 dollars, and a couple tanks of gas could get you a lifetime machine, with money left over for blades, etc. Also, the number one rule, in bandsaws, size does matter.

I bought 2 Felder machines -- funny you should mention them...F700Z and AD-741...at the time of my research into Bandsaws, I was looking at 24" resaw...I considered the FB500,FB600,FB540,FB640,FB740,FB840 but all of these had much more limited height - none seem to do 24"...and I have this thing for wide slabs of Walnut.

I will say that the Felder customer service has been exceptional so far...much better than Minimax....much, much, much better...When my new MM-24 was damaged in transit, I was told to talk to parts...a month later and I still don't have it...lots of work on my part to deal with this...very frustrating... The Felder customer service folks got back to me in hours/days and were very proactive... The Felder salesfolks are so proactive they are...to me...quite annoying...like a car salesforce...but they really do try hard and should be commended for that.

-mark

[Rick Fisher]

Mark, interesting post. I hope you get your issues with Mini Max worked out.

[Glenn Ancona]

When I first read the post about the liquidation I was upset as I just pulled the trigger on a new 24 / 24 and it was on the truck on its way here. I called Jesse from Eagle and we talked at length. Really, what is going to fail on the machine that Aggi builds... the frame, the table ? Jesse has spent hours with me on this and on the machine making sure it arrived in flawless condition - ready to go. What really blew me away was his response about being concerned with a machine from a company that is no longer in buisness. " if your unsure, send it back. Better yet, if you use it for a while and you dont like it crate it up and send it back "
Yeah right ! The Saw is SAWEET in form and finish and not a blemish anywere- it looks as good standing still as it does running. The duel dust collection is a huge bonus, especially working with Corian. OH did I mention it cuts like a dream!
FYI for anyone getting one - on the mobile base it is the EXACT height of the festool MFT table for runout or circle work.
Mark, sorry for the MM problems you are having, if that was me I would have freaked out! We have had had multiple shipping problems this year with machinery and materials. One solid surface delivery from FEDUP freight was so damaged that it was refused. When the supplier agreed to eat the damaged sheet I went to the terminal to pick it up. The dispatcher was an A-hole and the wharehouse fork lift driver was ramming the end of the twelve foot 3K worth pallet with three foot forks at speed, of course with his headphones on without a care in the world. They could care less what's in your box. It was all I could do not to jerk him off the fork lift and beat him ! When I asked him to get fork extentions for the lift he got off the machine and walked away leaving me and the dispatcher to load BY HAND. We wonder why we dont manufacture anything here in the USA - Hell we cant even deliver anything ! These machines are made thousands of miles away and usually incure more damage in the last leg of their journey.
As soon as I witnessed this I made my own arrangements to pick up a martin shaper that was to be delivered. I couldnt imagine them hadling anything of value.
Yes the Aggi was not cheap and in a economy that is tanking in most parts of the planet I'm sure it will not the last to liquidate or just go under. Hearing that PanHans was the buyer was comforting in this CNC driven, cost cutting road that production woodworking is headed.