Making a shoulder plane - design considerations

[Matthew N. Masail]

yep.... this is going to be fun (-: dimensioned the stock so far. it will be 3/4" wide and about 7" long. I really only have 4 questions:

1. what is the recommended wedge angle for this type of wedge? I was thinking 10˚.

2. what blade angle would be good as a general purpose user? I was thinking 40˚ for good end grain performance.

3. what blade angle is better for working across the grain; high or low?

4. any insight as to cutting edge position, more to the front/back/middle

of course any personal recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

[Kenneth Speed]

Matt, Why don't you just check the tutorial for the Hock shoulder plane and use it as a template?

[Zander Kale]

1. I use 7º but 10º should be fine. The shorter the wedge, the lower the angle (short high angle wedges don't seem to stick so well).
2. End grain likes low cutting angles (eg the "block" in low angle block planes). I made my shoulder planes with a bed angle of 17º (because Holtey did), works well on long grain (I use it as a champher plane) and end grain.. I think Norris was 22.5º (the Shepard I have is). If you are building a bevel down plane, 40º is about as low as you want to go.
3. Yes. ie I don't think it matters.
4. A bit under 1:2. For example, I have two 8" shoulders, the mouth on one of them is at 2½" and the other is at 3¼".

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks ! all I needed to know.

KKenneth, I’m making it in a similar way, But I want to be involved and learn about what I'm making instead of following someone else’s choices. I do read them to learn what I can from them.

[george wilson]

I am confused. Why are you asking questions if you want to not follow other's choices?:)

[Brian Kerley]

I am confused. Why are you asking questions if you want to not follow other's choices?:)

I think he means he wants to know <i>why</i> people make those choices instead of just blindly following them.

[Kenneth Speed]

Matt replied to my suggestion by saying, ",,,, I’m making it in a similar way, But I want to be involved and learn about what I'm making instead of following someone else’s choices. I do read them to learn what I can from them."

OK, I wasn't suggesting you buy one of their kits or slavishly copy their design although I thought you could use it for guidance. I don't think there are too many wooden body shoulder planes out there to draw inspiration from.

Keep us posted on your progress, OK?

Ken

[george wilson]

Because of the all wooden construction,I suggest you not make a low angle shoulder plane. It will probably chatter like crazy. It is necessary to use metal to support the iron sufficiently to have a low angle.There are shoulder planes that look like hollows and rounds,and have their blades at about a 45º angle,and a flat bottom on them.

[Paul Saffold]

George, are those different than rabbet planes? I'm not sure what differentiates a rabbet from a shoulder plane.
Paul

[george wilson]

I think it is the only practical kind if it is all wood.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Very funny George ! :)
I'm making it bevel down, are your saying that the wood isn’t stiff enough to support it? or is it because of the wedge and the more direct pushing action on the blade? Here’s a picture, couldn't get it it good focus
237042

[Matthew N. Masail]

Ken, of course I will. I didn't mean to sound as if you thought I should follow it blindly, I was just explaining why I opened a post about it. I’m already getting help and learning stuff I probably wouldn't elsewhere. and your right
I didn't find much info on wooden shoulder planes online.

[george wilson]

Matthew,your proposed plane looks correct. It will work fine bevel down. As long as the blade sits accurately against the wood beneath it,and the wedge fits,all will be well.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks George ! I guess the low angle comment is referring to bedding it low angle. I see why that causes serious weakness. this guy seems to have it working well enough http://lumberjocks.com/mafe/blog/23427
perhaps it wont last long under tension.. but maybe if it were made out of a very strong wood like African Blackwood/Ebony ? it's got my "it will be fun to make that!" vibe going.... oy dear me

[David Weaver]

If you wanted to go low angle, I would do it with something that wasn't brittle (like live oak or she oak), or you'll have to blunt the front end of the mouth. Grain orientation will be really important.

It's not something I'd waste my time with - there's a reason the old BU planes are either all metal or infilled planes.

If I were in your shoes, I'd stick with bevel down for the all wood planes and save a bevel up plane for sometime when you want to try your hand at making an infill bullnose or infill shoulder plane.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi David, thanks for the advice! I'm almost finished with the plane and it's bevel down, but I'm intrigued with the idea of a low angle one, maybe in a different size or bullnose.

what do you think If I add 3mm thick brass sole? and how would you orient the grain, going with ​the ramp angle?

[David Weaver]

If you did that, it's not unlikely stuff would break out from in front of the mouth over time due to the orientation of the last bits of wood there. I might be inclined to try to match the grain dead on level front to back, though I don't know if that's practical.

But a brass sole would solve that. If you could add a brass sole and file it to match the ramp from the wood, I think you'd have a good design for durability.

[Matthew N. Masail]

So basically it's a short grain problem and less of a flex problem, sounds good :) I might just try it as when I get some brass, have nothing to loose.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I always wonder about low angle rabbeting planes - the only rabbeting plane I have is a moving fillester. I guess I just don't have enough experience under my belt, but I've often times come up wanting a normal rabbet plane to help true up or smooth rabbets or whatever - but always stuff on face grain, places where a normal rabbeting plane would be fine. Everytime I'm working endgrain, like on a tenon shoulder or something, I always just end up marking with a knife, and making a few cuts with a chisel in that knife line. A bit of an undercut so the show surface turns out nice looking. I suppose if I made a lot of breadboard ends or something. Certainly, I wouldn't turn down the precision and adjustability of a modern shoulder plane, and if I had it, I'm sure I'd find uses for it, but as money gets tighter, the more I start to wonder what tools on my "I need this list" I need, the more seem to get edged out by a good chisel.

My rambling aside, keep us posted Matthew! A rabbet plane is on my list of things I'd really like to build.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Joshua yeah, when the budget gets tight you really start thinking what you -really- need. that's why I decided to make some of my own tools in the first place, to stretch the budget, of course now I'm in love with it .
for about 5$ you can get a shoulder plane blade from Lee Valley (from the wooden planes) and build one, I say go for it if you have the time. soon I'll be able to tell you how the blade performs.
I'm not sure the precision of modern plane adjusters is necessary, I think a well made woody can be just as good for it's intended use.

[Matthew N. Masail]

BTW you reminded me of a thought I keep having.... what is the difference between a rebate, shoulder or dado plane? seems to me they are essentially the same tool, with the width of a dado plane having to be more precise if used for a given width board.

[Zach Dillinger]

Matthew,

A dado plane is specifically design to cut dados, which are grooves across the grain. They have nickers to sever the grain to provide a clean cut. A rabbet plane (rebate) is used to cut shoulders on the edges of boards, with the grain. A shoulder plane is designed to trim tenon shoulders, but can be used to clean up the faces of tenons as well as cut rebates. It, like a shoulder plane, could also be used to cut a dado, provided you knife or saw the grain and the plane you have is the right width for the dado you're cutting.

To further add to your list, you also have a fillister plane, which is design to cut a groove across the grain, but along the end grain of the board like a rabbet.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Zach ! I didn't think about the nicker.