Help me choose some synthetic waterstones...

[James Taglienti]

I have been using natural oilstones for years. I love them. But the allure of perfectly consistent grinding and honing every time has got me. Please help me pick a set of water stones! I am looking for medium through mirror polish. I have two parameters - no soaking, and hardest... I dont really care about cut speed as long as they are the Stay Flattinest of the bunch...

I am looking at the Naniwa super stones. But thats about it. Any other suggestions? I have no problem mixing brands etc i know some higher grits dont need a soak no matter the type.

[John Coloccia]

Funny...I just moved away from waterstones for the same reason :)

However, since you asked, I used to use a Duo Sharp course/fine (red/blue) for flattening backs, flattening stones, establishing bevels, etc..... Then a Norton 8000 for polishing. Then onto a strop for final polishing and maintenance. No soaking required with the 8000. I didn't really like waterstones below 8000 because I find they tend to be soft and dish easily. I have a Shapton 16000, but I never use it. It's redundant with a strop IMHO.

So that's what I used to do before I started using Spyderco ceramic stones (stones and strop just live on my bench, now), and a Worksharp for establishing the basic bevel.

[Steven J Corpstein]

I purchased mine from Stu at Tools From Japan. Stu knows his stuff and the shipping was much quicker than the 3 -4 weeks stated. I purchased the Sigma ceramics and really get a sharp, durable edge.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index

[george wilson]

I use a diamond stone to get rid of nicks,then a black then a white Spyderco,and a strop. Tried just about everything else over the years,and I'm satisfied with the ceramics. They never get out of flat.

[David Weaver]

If you use all carbon steel chisels, the superstones are fine. I think they're a bit lacking and load easily after that in the lower grits (though I've always liked the feel of the higher grit stones). Possible choices, especially coming from oilstones (where you'll be used to hard stones)

* A set of shapton professionals (stu can hook you up with those, as could harrelson stanley or chef knives to go), or even just the 1k and 12k
* A set of sigma powers (stu has those, not as hard as shapton, but really good stones for the price, and the final polish stone is the finest grit of the stones I've seen short of shapton's offerings that are in the $300+ range for a single stone)
* A bester 1200 and a cheap finishing stone like a kitayama or imanishi 10k (if price is a concern). The bester 1200 is far and away, to a hard stone user, the bargain high performer - it's a super performer without regard to price at all - as long as you get it from some place that charges $45 for it and not $65. The bester 1200 and the 1000 are not similar, it has to be the 1200.

The super quality cheap stones of the stone world are (at least considering they have to perform):
* the kitayama 8k, which can be found for $65 if you look around
* the 6k magnesia stone that "fujibato" (330mate_com) sells on ebay (really, really a nice stone regardless of price, but it's $38 for a full size splash and go stone that feels just like a chosera)
* the bester 1200, somewhere around $45

George's combination is good, too, and you might like spyderco's stones if you're used to oilstones (they're hard like oilstones, and finer). You can make a spyderco finish stone act like several different stones, depending on what you do to the surface.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've not enough experience to make the comparisons that others make. I've used oilstones, but the superstones are the only waterstones I've used. That said, I like them, they've done me quite well in the 1K-5K-8K setup I have, and when I need a little more polish, out comes the compound on MDF or a strop. But, particularly in the lower grits, they don't keep super flat, which you mentioned being something you're looking for. I feel like this is exacerbated by one of the stones I have not seeming like it's quite bonded fully to it's base. I can push on the corner of it and it almost flexes a little - water certainly sort of gets squeezed out from between the base and the stone when I do this. They certainly need to be flattened in their working condition.

I don't soak 'em, but I don't think they're quite splash and go - I run them under the sink as I flatten them before use - that gets them good and wet, but still a little less hassle then soaking. That little "prewet" goes a long way when I get off the first stone and start moving up, and keeping wet enough helps a lot with the loading they can be prone too. As the 8K dries out a bit, I get a nicer polish at the end. If I do just splash them, I find I need to let it sit for a while to soak in and recharge the water a bit more before I begin.

[Archie England]

+1 on David's analysis. +1 on whatever George has to say, always!

I've got the Bester 1200 and the new Sigma ceramic 1200. Stu's Sigma 1200 is definitely better! Both, however, benefit from a short soak. I've never had either the Bester 1200 or the Sigma 1200 go out of flat: both are very dish resistant stones. I abuse the Bester 1200 (bought it used) and am amazed at how well it keeps working. However, it leaves a coarser edge than the Sigma and doesn't have nearly the feel (feedback) and is much louder in honing. Gesshin 4000 and 8000 don't have to soak and the 4k is one of the best stones I've used: amazingly flat, wear and dish resistant--though it's developed some microfissures (not a problem yet). Stu's 6k doesn't need a soak and is just about the perfect stone for achieving that bright mirror edge. It's hard! Above 6k soaking is usually not an issue with the Sigma ceramics, at least for the 10k or the 13k. Though I do soak, I see little difference unless the soak has been really long--then the mud is much easier to work up.

Good luck.

[George Beck]

I would think for hardness and Non soaking, Shapton Pro would be the choice. I find the naniwa superstores a bit soft. I use a diamond stone for coarse grinding and then 1000. 5000. 15,000.

[Jonas Baker]

I absolutely love my Shapton Pro, 5000 and 8000 stones. I had Nortons 4000 and 8000 and the shaptons are harder, quicker sharpening, and just amazingly fast at sharpening. I know a lot of accolades have gone to the Sigma Stones, but I can't really see how they're better, I think at that point it's about the feel more than speed and hardness. I have the sigma 800 and 1000 stone, and they're great, but require much soaking (I'd assume their higher grit stones don't require as much soaking?)

There are a bit of stiction issues with the shaptons, as there are with any higher grit stone I would think, but these are overcome by simple adjustments in technique. I don't think you will be unhappy with these stones. I remember when I first tried them after being used to the Norton water stones, I was smiling at how fast they ate steel and how flat they stayed. Every time I use them I'm impressed.

Jonas

[Jonas Baker]

Oh let me just add that Shaptons stay relatively flat, but I still flatten them with a diamond stone failry often during sharpening (maybe out of habit). Their are no water stones that I know of that will stay as flat as a hard arkansas stone. It does sound like George's Spyderco's do stay that flat so if you don't like flattening with a diamond stone, etc, then maybe that is the way to go?

[David Weaver]

Spydercos would be it. The fine ones especially, from what I can tell they're actually harder than oilstones. If the surface glazes over, they sound and feel like a sheet of glass. You can get a really ridiculous edge off of them like that, but it takes a little bit of skill because they cut very slowly like that.

[Stuart Tierney]

I know a lot of accolades have gone to the Sigma Stones, but I can't really see how they're better, I think at that point it's about the feel more than speed and hardness. I have the sigma 800 and 1000 stone, and they're great, but require much soaking (I'd assume their higher grit stones don't require as much soaking?)

Jonas

I don't want to pick a fight here, but...

Sigma don't make an #800 stone.


Stu.


Oh, I've some 'waterstones' that make my Arkansas stones look soft, dishy and slow. I kid you not.

[David Weaver]

That's the shapton 1000, right? The 800 stone? giggle...

And I think a bester 1200 is more like a 1000 and their 1000 more like an 800 (and the 1000 is soft, though not a horrible stone because of it, it won't satisfy people who think it's a more coarse version of the 1200).

The 1200 SP II should have the name "hard" in it somewhere.

[Jonas Baker]

I don't want to pick a fight here, but...

Sigma don't make an #800 stone.


Stu.


Oh, I've some 'waterstones' that make my Arkansas stones look soft, dishy and slow. I kid you not.

Ohh darn, sorry to upset the stone enthusiats.... I meant the sigma 700 stone. The 3F carbon #700 to be exact. From you Stu in fact. Great stone.

[James Taglienti]

Oh, I've some 'waterstones' that make my Arkansas stones look soft, dishy and slow. I kid you not.

Oh man what are they?!

[Joey Chavez]

I love my Naniwa Super Stones, was supposed to be a set just to help me get started but I haven't had any reason to look elsewhere. Easy maintenance, no need to soak, stays flat, and inexpensive. I use 1000, 3000, 5000, 8000 with a 320 grit diamond stone. They get my A2 blades nice and sharp.

[Richard Jones]

Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5k is a tough combo to beat, especially if you can strop a bit afterwards. Great combo for knives as well.

Add an XXC for a flattener or even some 120 paper and glass/marble backer. Under $100......................

[James Taglienti]

I think I am going to start with the Spyderco stones. It looks like all three are 127 bucks on amazon right now. Sounds pretty solid! Does anyone know how fine the ultra fine really is? Would it benefit to buy a 13 or 16k waterstone for followup?

Thanks all for the suggestions. If the spydercos dont solve this "problem" that I dont really have in the first place, i will have to go to waterstones. Then maybe japanese naturals. Then maybe a lapping machine. And an electron microscope.

[David Weaver]

The UF (and maybe the fine) have particles in the neighborhood of 3 microns. Inevitably, it'll work like a finer stone than that. You don't need a 15k waterstone to follow the UF, after it settles in, it'll be as fine as that unless you abrade it with something really aggressive.

If I were in your shoes, I would buy something more traditional (diamond hone, no soak waterstone) for the coarser work. The same tendency to settle in and work finer and slower won't be so charming on a medium stone.

One other thing, I just got a spyderco 8x3 UF a couple of months ago, and while it was close to flat, it was not perfectly flat. They are a BEAR to lap, and you won't do it without diamonds. once you get the stone flat, it's not unreasonable to assume that you'll never need to do it again.

[James Taglienti]

Do you think one could refresh a medium stone with a diamond plate? I flattened a medium India with diamond and its only about 3/4 as fast as when it was new.

Why am I buying more stones? 236789

[David Weaver]

Yeah, it doesn't look like you need more stones. What are those razor hones? Is that blue one a dunlap hone?


I don't know about the medium spyderco, I'm sure you could refresh it with a diamond plate. Getting just a little bit of material off of the UF was extremely hard on one of my atomas, and I'd say it's 5 times as hard as an india stone. I don't know if the medium is quite as hard, but it will probably still make a medium india feel like a soft stone.

[James Taglienti]

Theres a norton razor hone in there, next to it is a piece of green jadeite i have been messing with, it acts like a brand new hard arkansas i wanna see what happens when it glosses over a little bit

[David Weaver]

Presumably you have been watching norton razor hones on ebay? I don't know how much they all go for, maybe some go for $20, but I saw a norton combo hone a few months ago that went for almost $800. At least two people wanted it badly. What little I get out, I've been looking for a three line swaty, but I've never looked that hard.

I'd love to just find a good vintage 8x2 fine black hard arkansas. Everything I see is combination hones, india hones, or soft arks....or maybe perhaps a finer hone that was on a hardware store counter that everyone obliterated into looking like a half pipe.

[David Weaver]

I see a nice combination coti in that picture, too. What is the gray stone with the slurry stone? Is that a thuri, or is it a chinese hone? Or maybe an english slate hone?

[James Taglienti]

Believe it or not i hit a Buy It Now on that norton for fifteen bucks a couple weeks ago. Looking at the prices they usually go for, id say its not going to be in my posession for very long.
The coticule is awesome for razor but a little too soft for tools, it self slurries and wont let me get a polish out of it.
The green hone with the slurry stone im afraid it is queer creek ( cue the cartoon-style failure trumpet sound, wah-wah-wahhhhh.) it still lets me get a great shine and the grit is creepily consistent with a slurry. Theres a chinese stone there that wouldnt even cut steel with water so i put some oil on it and its awesome!

Do you prefer the black over the transluscent?

[David Weaver]

Of the modern stones, I definitely don't like the black better than translucents. The translucents are finer and more consistent hands down, but black modern stones that I've tried so far don't feel like much. I get the sense that vintage stones might be more dense because the stone buying population would've been more demanding, just as japanese vintage hones seem to be better than modern ones for general use (though for different reasons). I'm going on supposition though that some of the old craftsmen preferred a good black arkansas stone to a translucent, and if they'd have used my black arkansas, they'd have preferred it to nothing.

Jonathan McCullough sent me a coti to try (among other things), and it was sort of crunchy for lack of a better word (but it gave a comfortable shave that belied the sounds it made), but I didn't try it on tools since it wasn't my stone and I felt like that wasn't OK to do to a razor stone that you don't own. I've definitely seen where they could be too soft for anything other than razors, which make even a medium stone behave like a hard one since you never pressure them. Big cotis are really expensive, and I'd love to try one sometime, but I don't want to buy one because I think they're only expensive due to rarity. On razors, most are blown away by japanese hones and welsh slate and thuri type hones (and welsh slate stones are cheap).

Barbs are slung on here often about how wasteful we are buying sharpening stones, but going over to the razor side and looking at the prices people pay for things (like the cotis and the eschers, and the frictionites) makes us look a little swiss, if you know what I mean (that's ok for me to say as 1/4 swiss:)).

[george wilson]

I have used my Spydercos for about 20 years without any wear at all. There are certain steels that only a super hard ceramic stone WILL sharpen. I made a knife from D2,a high wear resistance steel made for shearing other steels. Couldn't quite get it razor sharp on any of the stones I had. When I got the ceramics,the D2 sharpened to a full razor edge.

You probably will have to smooth them initially with a diamond stone,but after that,no problems,except to scrub the gray glaze off once in a while. And,that probably depends upon what you're using for a cutting fluid. I just use water with a few drops of Dawn dish detergent on mine.

[Matt Radtke]

I have used my Spydercos for about 20 years without any wear at all. There are certain steels that only a super hard ceramic stone WILL sharpen. I made a knife from D2,a high wear resistance steel made for shearing other steels. Couldn't quite get it razor sharp on any of the stones I had. When I got the ceramics,the D2 sharpened to a full razor edge.

I picked up a set of of SpyderCo after listening to George talk about them. It was a great buy, and probably found the same set you did for ~$127 for medium, fine, and ultra fine. Having a 2k Shapton Glass stone to compare against, I tried to get a sense of what grit they are.

The "fine" is faster but finer (go figure that one out!) than the Shapton 2k.

They are all rather quick, so I tend to only use the medium off the grinder. I do still finish with a ShaptoPro 12k--I already had it and love it and love the edge I get from it, so I'm not going to give it up. And I keep a DuoSharp for flattening the Shapton and really coarse work.

[Frederick Gross]

I use 3M diamond plates that I purchased from JWW. Not a single complaint and the finest one is .06 micron which leaves a good working edge.

[Chris Griggs]

Sounds like I'm late to the game and you've made a decision, but my thoughts are pretty much in line with Archie and Davids recommendations.

My top three 1k ish range stones in no particular order are the Sigma 1200, Bester 1200, and Chosera 800 (which I definitely like better than the Cho 1k)

I have less experience with medium fine (3k-6k) stones, and in a lot of cases don't even find them neccessary, but I do quite like my Sigma 6k. Although its fine enough that I tend to use it as more of a finishing stone then a middle stone. I actually want something else a little coarser in this range. There's a really hard looking Nubatama Ume at CKTG that I've been thinking of getting if it ever comes back in stock, but I might just save my pennies for a Cho 3k as well. I've heard rumors that Stu is working with Sigma to get a new 4k on the shelves, but have no idea when that will be.

Finishing stones... flip a coin. The better I get on sharpening the more I realize there are a heck of a lot of stones 6k and above that will get you where you need 99% of the time. I'm still enjoying my Naniwa Snow White 8k, but like the Chos it has the caveat of soak, but don't soak too long. Its quite hard which is nice, but because of this also has a bit of a learning curve (it can be skippy at time, but usually more soaking fixes this). Anyway, just about any decent 8k+ stone will get you there.

Its funny, I now have some non-sigma stones that I sometimes like a little better than my sigmas, but for stone buyers who are more practical then myself I still think Stu's 1.2k, 6k, 13k w/ diamond plate is the total package on the market.

Budget package? Go to CKTG and get Bester 1.2k + a good 8k (SW8k, Kityama 8k, etc...) + diamond

[Archie England]

I'm still enjoying my Naniwa Snow White 8k, but like the Chos it has the caveat of soak, but don't soak too long. Its quite hard which is nice, but because of this also has a bit of a learning curve (it can be skippy at time, but usually more soaking fixes this).

Hello Chris!

Now that you've used it a bit more, do you still feel that's better than "some other" 10k stone(s)?

[Jon Toebbe]

I was lucky enough to be in school in Golden, CO and made a trip out to the Spyderco factory outlet. Once I told them I was looking to sharpen woodworking tools, they were happy to let me root through a few boxes of unpackaged ceramic stones to find some flat ones. What I was told is that the only difference between the fine and ultra-fine white stones was that the ultra-fines were machined flat after firing. They are the exact same "grit," but the machining polishes the surface a bit. Don't lap an ultra-fine yourself, or you'll end up with a flat fine stone instead.

I ended up getting a medium (brown), a fine (white), and a leather strop with green honing compound. George's system works wonderfully (is anyone surprised?). I found the Spyderco stones to be a bit narrow, so picked up some Naniwa Super Stones for wide plane irons. They're excellent, too.

[Chris Griggs]

Hello Chris!

Now that you've used it a bit more, do you still feel that's better than "some other" 10k stone(s)?

Categorically better? Not sure... I like the SW8k better than I liked the Sigma 10k "back-catalogue" stone I sold you, but I'm not sure it necessarily a better stone all around... depends on what you like. Its harder and less friable, and I think I can push it further, so for me personally, yes I think the SW is better, but not necessarily for everyone.

And no, its definitely not better than the Cho10k... very very similar and very nearly as good, but not quite. Bang for buck, the SW8k is hands down better than the Cho10k, but if money were not object, I have to admit that the Cho10k gives slightly finer edge. Also, with a longer soak (15-20 minutes) the difference between the feel of the 2 stones becomes more pronounced (though still slight), and the Cho10k opens up into something extra dreamy.

Still love the SW8k, wouldn't trade is for anything, and bang for buck its pretty unbeatable.