Please help me pick a dozer or talk me out of it

[Darren Ford]

Hi all,

I'm hoping the vast knowledge here can help educate me on bulldozers. I'm looking into small dozers/track loaders to clear property and build a pond and other fun stuff. I'm completely ignorant in this area, except for some general information I have managed to read.

Anything I buy will be checked out by a mechanic before I bring it home. Can anyone offer any advice, like stay away from X, make sure Y is in good working condition, etc?

Anything in my price range is going to be old. I have just begun my search, and I have run across a Dresser TD15C with a new undercarriage. Any comments on Dressers ?

I know all of these are loaded questions ...

[george newbury]

I went thru a similar research project and ended up with a Kubota B7610 w/ backhoe.

Although SMC is a great forum, and mods delete this if it's against the rules, Tractorbynet.com has excellent subforums on construction equipment and another on land clearing.

Generally unless you envision a LOT of usage or just have a love and wallet for big toys it's far less expensive to hire someone to do it, or rent the equipment for dozer type projects. Maintenance of the finished project usually requires different tools.

I started out wanting to get a small dozer or skid steer to clear trails thru my forested lands, build small ponds etc.
Thru long discussions there I came to realize that I really needed a tractor with a backhoe for my purposes.

If you go to tractorbynet be prepared to answer a lot of questions, they really try to help (unless it gets political).

[David G Baker]

I agree with George. Hire the job out. Make sure you spend the time to get someone that is a pro with a rock solid reputation.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

David is spot on with his reply.

[Jerome Stanek]

I ran heavy equipment when I was younger and for clearing stumps a backhoe is a better choice as you can dig around the stump roots and move them out of the way faster. Also if it has a quick change hoe on it you can use it for mowing and other stuff.

[Kevin Bourque]

Owning a dozer, roller, grader, backhoe etc. sounds like a great idea until theres a problem and you have to pay some guy $100 just to drive out and look at the problem, then pay him $100 to put it on a trailer and take it to his shop, then pay him $100 to bring it back. That doesn't include the big money you will pay him to fix the problem. It's always easier to find someone to do the work for you.

[Van Huskey]

Caterpiller D9H and be done with it. :D

[Jerome Stanek]

If you want a dozer look at the case 450 it is a workhorse for it's size. It is a lot cheaper than the cats but it will work all day and pay for itself with cheaper upkeep.

[Fred Perreault]

Darren, It all sounds romantic, but there is more to it than "getting the right one". I have owned and operated literally dozens of dozers, track loaders, track excavators, trailers, trucks, tools, and garages to repair and service them. It is an industry unto itself. If you have money to burn and a desire to match, think of one machine as entertainment or pleasure.... like a boat, or a backyard tennis court, or a sport motorcycle. For dubbing on your property, and if you are gonna wanna make holes on the ground (farm pond, dig out stumps) then a strong backhoe could be fun. Until it blows a hydraulic line, or the transmission heats up, or the hydraulic pump makes noises and won't lift properly. Or until it othewise breaks down. Then you have to get fuel to it, and store gallons and gallons of oil and filters and..... well, you must be getting it by now. A novice who buys heavy equipment intending to save money on his own work should take a deep breath and, as you are doing, research the heck out of it. In the end hiring a qualified person to get the job done and letting him carry the burden of extensive overhead is a better arrangement. It has taken most of us experienced owner/operators decades of experience (good and bad) and anguish to be able to suggest this. However, if you want to enter into the heavy construction business, go out and find $200,000-$300,000 to buy some used iron, and set aside 10-20 years of your life to catch on. :) :)

[Scott T Smith]

Darren, I have done what you are considering, and there are pro's and cons to purchasing and using your own equipment.

My heavy equipment roster includes the following:

Cat D8 Dozer (95,000 lbs with ripper)
John Deere 550 dozer (about 18,000 lbs)
Cat 420Dit backhoe (about 18,000 lbs
John Deere 270 skid steer (about 12,000 lbs)
Dresser 412B elevating scraper (about 35K lbs)
Fiat Allis 100B motor grader (about 30K lbs)
JLG 60HA 60' manlift (about 20K lbs)
Sheepsfoot roller

I also own several farm tractors from 22 hp up to 110 hp, have a well stocked equipment repair shop, assorted welders, hydraulic hose repair equipment, etc., and I have access to a 25 ton crane. I also own two dump trucks.

When you buy older equipment, be prepared to spend some serious $ in unscheduled maintenance. Depending upon the equipment, new parts may or may not be available (such as for your proposed Dresser dozer). Older equipment also burns more fuel - my Cat D8 burns through 125 gallons of diesel a day. That didn't hurt too much when off-road diesel was .79 per gallon; it hurts a LOT when it's at $3.50 per gallon.

Simple things like an oil change can get expensive too when your equipment requires 20 gallons of oil. Every time you blow a hydraulic hose expect to drop a few hundred dollars in hydraulic fluid too.

If you're going to buy the equipment and do the work yourself, the best advice that I can give you is to buy the newest, lowest hour equipment that you can afford. At 6000 hours, most equipment is fairly worn, and you can expect a greater amount of unscheduled maintenance. If you want to buy something that will probably not require unscheduled maintenance, try to get something with less than 3000 hours, preferably with less than 2K hours. Many folks will argue that equipment is good past 6K hours, and they are correct. But that's the same as saying that a car is good for more than 150K miles. Yes it is, but your maintenance costs will be much higher.

For tracked equipment, plan on replacing the undercarriage every 1000 - 1500 hours. To give you an idea of what this costs, I spent 9K replacing the undercarriage on the "little dozer" and that didn't even include track shoes (but did include some final drive repair). The last time that I checked, the undercarriage for the D8 is over 20K to replace.

Need a new tire for your scraper? Four years ago when I bought a set a retread started at $2,500 - a new tire was over 5K. They are probably a lot more expensive today, what with the increased cost of oil.

Unless you can do the bulk of the repair and maintenance yourself, it will be a roll of the dice if it's cheaper to buy and use your own equipment versus paying someone to do the work. Fred's advice above is right on target; I probably have over 7K invested just in lubricants and spare filters for my equipment.

If you're clearing land, probably the best piece of equipment to use is an excavator with a hydraulic thumb. Get one big enough to do the job - probably a Cat 320 or 330. Last time I priced these new, they were 200K.

After the land is cleared, you will want to use a medium sized dozer with a root rake in order to get all of the smaller stumps and roots out. Get at least a D5 sized machine. You will also need to use the dozer to fill in all of the craters from where you removed the trees.

For a pond you have several choices. The best way to cut, transport, and place fill dirt by yourself is with an elevating scraper. Second best option is a very large dual wheel tractor with pull type scrapers.

Other options include track hoes and dump trucks, or large dozers. Large dozers are only cost effective when pushing dirt about 100'. Much beyond that, and a track hoe / dump truck is a more cost effective combination.

If you have more time than $, I would suggest that you buy the newest backhoe that you can find, along with a good sized dump truck. A 4 in 1 bucket is pretty much a must for the backhoe, and with this equipment - given enough time - you can clear the land and dig the pond. You will need a small dozer (D4 or D5 size) to spread the fill, and either a sheepsfoot roller to compact the fill dirt in the dam or a self rolling vibratory tamper.

Komatsu equipment is generally a bargain, and it is good equipment. Try to stick with equipment that you can get parts (and service) for. You will pay a premium for Cat equipment, but the parts are available and the quality is very high. Just about everything that John Deere makes on their construction side is pretty good equipment, and Liebherr is top of the line but costly. Dresser and International have been out of the equipment biz for a while, but parts are still available for some of the machines. Case makes good equipment, but it is limited in size.

For general work on the farm, a good sized tractor (over 50 hp) with a 3 point hitch and implements offers a lot of versatility. It won't do the heavy work that the tracked equipment will, but it is great for a lot of ancillary tasks. If you want a loader on it, go with a 4WD as the front axle is much better suited to handle the weights from the loader. Also try to get a loader that accepts skid steer implements (cheaper and more readily available).

A skid steer is also a handy tool, as there are a plethora of implements available for them. It would not be my equipment of choice for building a pond or clearing land though - it's just not heavy enough nor designed for this type of work.

It is nice to have the option (and ability) to do the work with your own equipment, but it's not necessarily the best choice financially.

Hope this helps...

Scott

[Scott T Smith]

Caterpiller D9H and be done with it. :D

Van, that ain't a D9"H".... more likely a D9N or an R. The H's were a low track.

[Van Huskey]

OOPS, I was thinking the first elevated drive sproket was the H... but my practical knowledge stops with the D7, probably was just thinking H and High though I do know they have nothing to do with each other. When I was a Platoon Leader in the Combat Engineers my platoon was the support platoon so we had all the heavy equipment but we were Airborne so nothing heavier than a D7. A D7 could be LEAPS in (literally drug out of the back of a VERY low flying C-130 or C-141 by a parachute(s)), we had one LEAPS go awry and lost a D7 as it tumbled probably 20 times because the pilot was maybe 10 feet too high, the load master should have known better...

Pic below, I couldn't find a dozer but this is a LAPES.

BTW with your equipement Scott a D9 isn't that much of a stretch!

[David Weaver]

You might buy vintage stuff that is priced a couple times scrap value. You might need to buy two or three, but in the end, you should be ahead..if you can get it to start and move.

..but that leads to another issue. I don't know what kind of property you're clearing, but if it's not something you do every day, clearing heavy brush is more dangerous than it would seem.

Be prepared for broken windows (which suggests something about sitting in the cab) and punctured radiators.

All that said, if you're going to buy, of the farmers I know, if they only need a small dozer, they will often run with a vintage caterpillar or something similar. If they need something newer and heavier, case and deere seem to be well regarded - maybe that's just because the dealer networks are pretty well developed and accessible when you need service, and maybe because it's cheaper service than cat if you don't abuse them.

Someone on another forum mentioned the other day that they took a stick through a cab window while clearing brush, and the glass was around $500 (i think on a deere 650)...just for a piece of glass.

[Matt Meiser]

D9? That's a baby. Take a look at the D11. One or two passes and you can take out your whole property, assuming you live in the country. In the city, many neighbors' too.

I worked for Cat first job out of college. Mandatory training back in the mid-90's for new hires included a week playing on equipment at the proving grounds. Literally play--they showed us safety videos in the morning, stuck us out on a hill with a bunch of equipment, took us back for lunch, and took us back out for afternoon play for a full week. Biggest I got to play on was a D6. But there was a D11 at the proving grounds I got to see. I worked in the wheel loader division--biggest of those I got to drive was a 992. I spent a lot of time on the 983F and the prototype 950G machine developing the software for the optional traction control system.

[Scott T Smith]

OOPS, I was thinking the first elevated drive sproket was the H... but my practical knowledge stops with the D7, probably was just thinking H and High though I do know they have nothing to do with each other. When I was a Platoon Leader in the Combat Engineers my platoon was the support platoon so we had all the heavy equipment but we were Airborne so nothing heavier than a D7. A D7 could be LEAPS in (literally drug out of the back of a VERY low flying C-130 or C-141 by a parachute(s)), we had one LEAPS go awry and lost a D7 as it tumbled probably 20 times because the pilot was maybe 10 feet too high, the load master should have known better...

Pic below, I couldn't find a dozer but this is a LAPES.

BTW with your equipement Scott a D9 isn't that much of a stretch!

Very cool Van! I can't imagine dropping a D7 out of an airplane! I'm glad that I didn't buy any mil surplus D7's - might have some "unusual" track maintenance issues....

[Jason Roehl]

Man, you guys are a bunch of killjoys. The guy just wants to buy a toy and play. :D

Matt--If I had known Cat did that, I might have tried a little harder in college. At least I have a friend who owns a landscaping company (with a couple Bobcats) who knows he doesn't have to ask me twice if he needs a little help pushing some dirt around (and I push snow around for him in a medium-duty dump truck or sometimes one of the Bobcats). You can clear a lot of driveways in a hurry in a Bobcat with a 10' snow box (part of our list is a neighborhood with 32 duplexes--took me about 2 hours to clear them all of about 3-4" of snow).

[Larry Edgerton]

Man, you guys are a bunch of killjoys. The guy just wants to buy a toy and play. :D

).


Exactly!

I can see by the guys avitar he at least thinks about having fun. If I had done everything in my life in line with sound economic advise, I would maybe have a little more money, but bored to tears.

I have a background in heavy equipment, but have been building houses for the last 30 years. I have done what you are asking several times, and am just about ready to do it again. I look for a machine that is dirty, selling below book because it looks bad, but runs well. Do my work, clean it up and maybe give it a licquid overhaul and sell it, usually at a profit. Not crazy about old dozers for a lot of the reasons that Scott mentioned, but for what you want to do it may would not be the ideal tool anyway.

I'm going to pick up an excavator next, I need a pond as well. I have a tractor with a loader and a small dump, but I need some fun too......

Bike looks good that way........

Larry

[Darren Ford]

Thanks for all of the comments, I'm soaking it all up.

I know the cheapest, smartest way is to hire it out. But I am looking for flexibility as well, since I don't actually know what all I want to do here yet. I do know there are things I want done that I can't do with my little 35hp tractor and loader, or justify hiring out. I can't really tell my wife I'm spending xx thousand to haul in 100 loads of dirt and hire someone to build a track for our dirtbikes and quads, but if I push up my own dirt then it's got to go somewhere right?

My plan for the pond was to do the grunt work, getting the general form and sides in decent shape, then hiring in an excavator to dig the bottom deeper. The area is completely flat and low. Its dry in the summer and wet all winter.

I also understand a dozer isn't the best tool for this, but it's the most versatile right? It's like if you had to tighten bolts and drive nails, a socket set and hammer are what you need, but if you could only get one tool, a crescent wrench could do both.

[Scott T Smith]

Thanks for all of the comments, I'm soaking it all up.

I know the cheapest, smartest way is to hire it out. But I am looking for flexibility as well, since I don't actually know what all I want to do here yet. I do know there are things I want done that I can't do with my little 35hp tractor and loader, or justify hiring out. I can't really tell my wife I'm spending xx thousand to haul in 100 loads of dirt and hire someone to build a track for our dirtbikes and quads, but if I push up my own dirt then it's got to go somewhere right?

My plan for the pond was to do the grunt work, getting the general form and sides in decent shape, then hiring in an excavator to dig the bottom deeper. The area is completely flat and low. Its dry in the summer and wet all winter.

I also understand a dozer isn't the best tool for this, but it's the most versatile right? It's like if you had to tighten bolts and drive nails, a socket set and hammer are what you need, but if you could only get one tool, a crescent wrench could do both.

Darren, how big of a pond are you thinking about building? If it is 1/2 acre, I would agree with the dozer. If it's 5 acres, then I would suggest a scraper and a dozer.

Scott

[Darren Ford]

I was thinking roughly 1.5, potentially smaller and smaller as I realize how big a job it is.

[ben searight]

How deep will the pond be and where in Alabama are you located. Based on your comment regarding the area being wet in the winter, I suspect you will not be able to dig the pond with a dozer or a scraper due to groundwater issues. The biggest issue is how you far you have to move the material. A 1 1/2 acre pond, 15 foot deep will generate about 2000 loads of material that you will have to do something with. I manage heavy civil construction projects for a living, and every pond we've ever constructed has been built with an excavator and off road trucks. The dozers are used for shaping and dressing the slopes.

[David Weaver]

You could always make it deeper with a hiram ball horse-drawn scraper :D

There's an even smaller manpowered version of the same thing, I can't find a picture of one but I know someone mentioned that their relatives dug the basement of their house with one back in the says of hands-on family cooperation (as in they got together every day after work and took turns pulling the scraper, which was just like a shovel on wheelbarrow handles that you pulled instead of pushed. It looked like a self-torture device to me).

[Scott T Smith]

I was thinking roughly 1.5, potentially smaller and smaller as I realize how big a job it is.

Unless you have an existing low spot / draw that you're planning to dam up, you're going to have to move a lot of fill. Plus, you will need a way to compact it (a small dozer will lack sufficient concentrated weight); the least expensive option for compaction is a sheepsfoot roller.

You will need some good clay to form the core of the dam too. Personally, I would opt for three pieces of equipment. A D5 - D6 size dozer - preferably with a 6 way blade for finish work, a 12 yard elevating scraper, and a tow-behind sheepsfoot roller. The scraper will actually do a good job of compacting the fill, but you won't be able to use it on a slope; hence the need for the sheepsfoot.

Option two is to substitute a large track hoe and dump truck for the scraper, but I think that you would have to spend more $ on this combo versus the scraper.

[Jason Roehl]

I've heard that in Indiana (where I reside), one of the state agencies would put in a pond for you at no cost because of the benefit to wildlife. (Not sure if it's the DNR or IDEM--IN Dept. of Env. Management). That was a few years ago, but you might look into it with the state. That would allow you to spend your toy...err...tool money on machinery more suited to the rest of the property than stuff that's good for digging/shaping the pond, then not much else. It might be worth looking into--I'd start with calling your state's DNR.

[ben searight]

Unless you have an existing low spot / draw that you're planning to dam up, you're going to have to move a lot of fill.

I assumed a dam would not be possible because he referred to the area as completely flat and low. I think he would just be digging a hole in a wet area and allowing the groundwater to fill the pond. If that is indeed the case there really is no alternative to an excavator, unless you can wellpoint to lower the water table.

[Darren Ford]

You are absolutely right Ben, the entire property is flat. It's not wet in the summer though. It gets wet whenever the heat backs off and rains come (Oct or November) and stays wet through about end of May. Although this year with the warm dry winter it was pretty much dry in April.

I think I'm focusing on the pond a little more because it's the big task. The pond is no rush. There is a lot of clearing and other prep (including the aforementioned jumps) that I need done that I can't do with my little FEL and boxblade.

I don't want it to sound like I have a ton of land either. This is only 11 acres, but it's mostly woods and I have no room for any of my junk. I'd like to clear most of it for pasture, the pond and track I have mentioned, plus garden space and a good spot for a building to hold this stuff.

I guess I was thinking I could get some small dozer like a D4 to get me through a good chunk of this, put several hundred hours on it in the next few years, then get rid of it. I see people doing that around here all the time and didn't realize how specialized each piece of equipment was. It's like motorcycles, you need about 6 different ones.

[ben searight]

Well since your in AL I assume most of your clearing will be pine trees. I'd find a local pulpwooder to cut as much timber as you can get them to take, and then you can push up the stumps and burn them. If you get a dozer you'll need a root rake. It will allow you to get under the stumps and pull them out. If you try using just the blade, you'll have to dig them out. (you can't "push" much of a stump with a D4). When you get ready to dig your pond, use an excavator. Whether you buy it, rent it, or hire someone, it is the right machine for the job. If the ground is stable enough you could haul the material in a regular dump truck (hire a local company) and grade it with the dozer when you are done.

[Jim Matthews]

If you bought a Kubota that could handle grass cutting duty, why not?

You'll also need a proper truck and trolley to haul it around once your friends and relations hear you own a backhoe.
One thing - call before you dig http://www.call811.com/ even if it's your patch o' dirt.

[Darren Ford]

The wife and I took the quads out today to really look over the property and review our plans. We are both nervous about taking out the trees, but its all useless to us if we don't. Besides, it's just unmanaged woods, and trees are constantly dying and falling. As an SMCer, it probably doesn't surprise you that every tree that comes down is going to rip a part of me. However; we have 4 pines dead from some disease, 2 dead from lightning, and we had to drop an old (probably 4ft diameter) oak a couple years ago that died from lightning. We have probably a dozen other dead from who knows what. I counted about 140 pines (12inch up to 30+ inch) that need to go, and probably half as many oaks that need to go. Plus countless smaller pines and hardwoods. We want to leave as many as possible but still make the property neat and manageable. One thing that encourages us it looking across the road at about 300 acres that was solid woods when I moved here, but has been cleared and now looks pretty nice. Behind us is all woods for maybe a mile. The only building we can see is our neighbors barn on one side, and it's a ways to that.

[george newbury]

I've heard that in Indiana (where I reside), one of the state agencies would put in a pond for you at no cost because of the benefit to wildlife. (Not sure if it's the DNR or IDEM--IN Dept. of Env. Management). That was a few years ago, but you might look into it with the state. That would allow you to spend your toy...err...tool money on machinery more suited to the rest of the property than stuff that's good for digging/shaping the pond, then not much else. It might be worth looking into--I'd start with calling your state's DNR.
That's what happened with my family back in about 1966. Up in Vermont we had the state put in a "half acre pond". They did it all with with a large (D5? D6?) dozer. To make a long story short my Dad got along well with the dozer operator. It was supposed to be a short few day project. The guy got the dam built in a short time, and the area cleared. My Dad talked the guy into leaving the dozer over a long weekend, with a wink. By Tuesday we had a three acre pond, probably about 15' deep.

Well worth the extra fuel and pipe he had to buy.

Could walk out the basement door and catch trout for breakfast, lunch and dinner, when the ice was out.

[Larry Gipson]

I thought about buying a dozer once, but then hired someone to do the work.

I did buy a used 75hp Massey Ferguson Fermec tractor with a 4N1 bucket (and 4wd). The idea was to do some light grading with it, then sell it. These large tractors used to sell used for $20k or more, but now with the contraction of the economy they can be purchased for $12k at auction. In any case, I found one I liked on Craigslist.

The 4N1 bucket opens in the middle and will push dirt like a dozer. It also has strong hydraulics that operate the opening and closing of the bucket so it can grab small trees and carry them around. Of course, when closed it will carry dirt like any loader.

I've used it far less than I had imagined. I put in a couple of roads on the property and did some of the grading I was going to do. It's just too large for most maintenance jobs and scary on a hill. Terracing a hillside would be too exciting I'd think.

This came about after buying a small 25hp Kubota tractor and finding out it really didn't have the power to do much of anything. Now I have a tractor with more power than I need, but is too large to get in tight places. It also taught me not to be at all sideways on a hill while lifting a loaded bucket. Scared the cr-p out of me one day. :-) I'm always learning stuff from power tools.

I can vouch that maintenance on this thing is more than I bargained for. One day it just refused to move so I called a tractor repairman out to the property. This machine has two peddles - one for forward and the other for reverse. Each pedal has a switch that get rained on and can fill with dirt. Each switch was $250 and the installation charge matched the cost of the parts. I also did routine maintenance - oil, filter, etc. Close to $2k it was.

Fun though. I get to climb a little ladder to get in my tractor. On the other hand, probably a 35hp tractor would have been a better fit.