Talk me off the ledge

[Jon Prouty]

Spent an hour this afternoon sharpening a bunch of tools.... My woodcraft slow speed grinder is driving me nuts with the stock wheels. I have that stupid t handled dressing tool and I am probably making the bouncing worse with it. Seems that now when I put a tool to the wheel it wants to bounce off - ugh. Dave's 180 grit wheel and 5/8" bushing is in my shopping cart... Someone talk me off the ledge and tell me that $200 bucks for a grinding wheel is ridiculous and that a simple way to get these wheels back to running true is a $10 thingamajig available at the Borg.

Been eyeing that CBN wheel for more than a year.

Toolaholics unite to save me...

JP

[Jon Nuckles]

No help here. I upgraded to the Norton wheels and bought the Oneway balancer. Wish I'd saved that money and gone for the CBN in the first place. It is on my list to buy soon. (shove)

[Roger Chandler]

Nah.........I'll just give you a push! I got the CBN wheel from Dave.............geez...........wish I had done it sooner than I did!!!

No help here with letting go of money,:eek: but a lot on the sharpening aspect of woodturning.........that is a lifetime wheel and it really does a superior job on your gouges!!! Just my humble opinion! :)

[Bob Bergstrom]

You might as well jump. CBN wheels are the best thing since sliced bread.

[Jim Underwood]

IE bouncing T-dresser:

I find that resting it on the flat rest helps keep it from bouncing. A light touch helps also.

Hey, but don't let me keep you from making the jump to the better tool if you have the money. Me? I keep trying to save up for that shop addition. It's been painful to watch those deals I've been waiting for, get away...

[Mike Cruz]

Push...shove...bump...nudge... Hey, it is always fun spending someone elses money! :D Someday, I'll likely take the plunge...not right now, though. My white Norton wheels are doing me just fine for now... OOPS, did I just put out a hand to hold you back? DANG!

[Peter Blair]

I've had a CBN wheel from Dave for about month now and wonder why I didn't 'jump' sooner, sorry no help here!

[Steve Schlumpf]

Jon.... no doubt the CBN wheel is expensive but when you figure in the advantages such as no dust, wider sharpening surface, balanced wheel, doesn't wear out.... it becomes a one time purchase and well worth the money. I've had mine since June of last year and still love using it! Like Roger said - I wish I had gotten it sooner!

[Mike Peace]

Here is an article on the Woodcraft site that might help you "tune" your grinder up.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Articles/Articles.aspx?ArticleId=724
Good luck.

[Jon Prouty]

Enablers! Thanks Mike for the link... I'm not see oscillations, rather out of round. I try using the t handle dresser with light pressure resting on the platform. Then I switch back to the v pocket arm and have to reposition it again to find the right spot only to find I didn't get the wheel true to begin with. Rinse and repeat. I have so little time to play in the shop, I'd rather be turning than fiddling with the wheels.

I've got a guy coming on Monday night to pick up a lathe I'm selling... Looks like Dave will get an order Monday night. Easy come, easy go.

Thanks
Jon

[David DeCristoforo]

No, no... don't do it...236263

[Reed Gray]

Some times, just rotating the wheel 45 or 90 degrees can help it run true. The plastic bushings that come with them are junk. You can trim the side to side wobble, and the run out (out of round) by hand with a gentle touch. You need a platform. Ease the diamond tool into the wheel till it just starts to hit, and nibble your way in till it is round. You can not just ride the wheel as that just follows the run out.

You can also buy a CBN wheel and never have to worry about that ever again. More money in the start, MUCH less money in the long run. In another few years, CBN wheels will be the norm for grinder wheels. Just too many advantages over standard wheels.

robo hippy

[Joe Bradshaw]

Make yourself a new set of bushings out of some really hard wood(I used some yellowheart). I used the Geiger wheel truing jig which works great. But, I finally got theD-Way wheels and I have not looked back. Since the wheels do not wear, I was able to make spacers from pvc pipe to set my vari-grind jigs for my bowl and spindle gouges. Woodcraft grinder, $90.00. D-Way wheels, $380.00. Sharpening ease, priceless.

[Ed Morgano]

I just a diamond wheel dresser similar to these: http://www.grizzly.com/search/search.aspx?q=diamond%20dressing%20tool&cachebuster=8133564131763285. That will true up the wheel, make it run smooth and give you a much better finish.

[John Spitters]

I purchased a white 120 grit wheel when I first got into turning apx. 4 yrs now, paid only $40 for it , bought a cheap $7 or $8 dollar T handled diamond dresser for the wheel and it all works great for me. I still have maybe another two years of life left in that wheel before I need to change it. Once you have your profile ground on your tool all that's needed is a light touch on the wheel to bring it back to "sharp".

John

[Richard Coers]

What is the saying, "It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools"? Be patient and fix what you have. You may find out that your cheap grinder doesn't run very true, then you will need to buy a $500 grinder for that $200 wheel. I don't anticipate a $100 grinder to be a precision machine. I start working bad wheels with a pencil. Put the pencil on the rest and spin the wheel by hand. This will mark the high spot. Loosen the nut and see if you can push the wheel away from the pencil mark. Snug up the nut and do the pencil again. If you didn't gain anything, it's all in the wheel and not the bushing. Now tighten the nut, and put the dresser on the rest. Be as gentle as possible, then be even more gentle. Start dressing the wheel like the dresser isn't even touching it. Heck take a half hour to dress that wheel. A half hour with just the dresser will save you from buying $200 wheel. That's like $400 per hour!

[Jon Prouty]

What is the saying, "It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools"? Be patient and fix what you have. You may find out that your cheap grinder doesn't run very true, then you will need to buy a $500 grinder for that $200 wheel. I don't anticipate a $100 grinder to be a precision machine. I start working bad wheels with a pencil. Put the pencil on the rest and spin the wheel by hand. This will mark the high spot. Loosen the nut and see if you can push the wheel away from the pencil mark. Snug up the nut and do the pencil again. If you didn't gain anything, it's all in the wheel and not the bushing. Now tighten the nut, and put the dresser on the rest. Be as gentle as possible, then be even more gentle. Start dressing the wheel like the dresser isn't even touching it. Heck take a half hour to dress that wheel. A half hour with just the dresser will save you from buying $200 wheel. That's like $400 per hour!

I'll give this a try.... But if I have to do this once a week and it takes a half hour, that is a half hour less that I get to enjoy turning. I normally have two or three hours per week to be in the shop (it is too hot in AZ right now).

Don't most hobbiest have much nicer tools and accesories than production folks? I think that adds to the joy of it being a hobby and not a job. Reminds me of when I was a mechanic turning wrenches for a living... My customers cars ran beautifully but my car was a pile of junk.

Like I said, I'll try it again but I'm not holding my breath. Actually, when dressing a wheel, I am holding my breath so I don't inhale the white dust - that can't be good for the lungs either.

Thanks all for the advise.
JP

[Richard Coers]

I'll give this a try.... But if I have to do this once a week and it takes a half hour, that is a half hour less that I get to enjoy turning. I normally have two or three hours per week to be in the shop (it is too hot in AZ right now).

Don't most hobbiest have much nicer tools and accesories than production folks? I think that adds to the joy of it being a hobby and not a job. Reminds me of when I was a mechanic turning wrenches for a living... My customers cars ran beautifully but my car was a pile of junk.

Like I said, I'll try it again but I'm not holding my breath. Actually, when dressing a wheel, I am holding my breath so I don't inhale the white dust - that can't be good for the lungs either.

Thanks all for the advise.
JP

Jon, The elaborate true up should only have to be done once for the life of the wheel. Any true up after the initial rounding should only take a minute or so.

[Sid Matheny]

Bob Hamilton has a new video out and at the beginning he shows how he dresses his wheel. This may help you some.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAocVE7X_3U&feature=player_embedded

Sid

[Thom Sturgill]

Heck take a half hour to dress that wheel. A half hour with just the dresser will save you from buying $200 wheel. That's like $400 per hour!
Wrong - he does not have to dress the wheel ONCE but about 100 times over its life. Thats 50 hours or $4/hr (not even minimum wage!) over the life of the wheel. Buy the CBN!

[Reed Gray]

Wheels can develop run out in two directions. One is roundness, or the part you sharpen on the most. This will continually need to be cleaned and trued up again. The other direction is from side to side. This should only have to be done once.

Another test would be to remove one wheel, and turn the grinder on and see if there is any run out. Be sure to use a marking pen so you can put it back into the same place when you put it back on. Probably do this with both wheels before doing any dressing. Then dress one wheel at a time (without the other wheel on), then put them both on at the same time and hopefully you won't need any more touch up work other than standard cleaning the face and dressing it.

Or, you could save all that and get a CBN wheel. One other safety factor about the CBN wheels, there is absolutely no risk of it ever blowing up on you.

As a production turner, I use the most efficient tool, and cost has little to do with it. This ranges from the bent wire calipers that David Ellsworth uses, to my Baldor grinders. As some one once said, "When you buy the more expensive tool, you only cry once. When you buy the cheapest tool, you cry every time you use it." Most important consideration for me, is will it save me work in the long run. Best price is seldom best value.

The first set of grinding wheels that I had, that came with my Woodcraft 'no name' grinder didn't last 6 months, but I did a lot of turning. The next set, the pink ones, which ever ones they were, might have lasted that long. My first CBN wheels (matrix type as in 3/16 inch thick grinding matrix bonded to an aluminum hub) lasted over 6 years and still have half the matrix left.

robo hippy

[Richard Coers]

Wrong - he does not have to dress the wheel ONCE but about 100 times over its life. Thats 50 hours or $4/hr (not even minimum wage!) over the life of the wheel. Buy the CBN!

I agree that you have to constantly dress the wheel. You don't have to dress it concentric with the arbor more than once if you dress it properly all the other times.

[Ed Morgano]

Wrong - he does not have to dress the wheel ONCE but about 100 times over its life. Thats 50 hours or $4/hr (not even minimum wage!) over the life of the wheel. Buy the CBN!
Thom,
It doesn't take 30 minutes to dress a wheel....more like 3 - 4 minutes the first time and 30 seconds after that. I have dressed my wheels about 3 times in the last 2 years.

[Jon Prouty]

I must have stupid hands or something but I spent an hour trying to get the darn wheels back round. I got almost zero wobble no side to side but my wheels are still not dressed round. I'll watch Bob's video next. And I got matrix junk all over my clothes and face... I am hating these wheels more now than when I started yesterday.

Jon

[Thomas Canfield]

I had the Woodcraft slow speed grinder with original wheels and could not get them balanced using a T diamond dresser. I bought a Norton wheel and had similar problem, but then got the Wolverine Diamond Dressing Jig and wheel trued up and bounce went away. I find that dressing frequently and keeping wheel true is one of the keys to getting and keeping a sharp edge. I also tend to take a light dress on the cutting edge fairly frequently and with a true wheel there is very little metal loss.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I put the CBN wheel on my woodcraft SP grinder and it run true. No more dressing and I do believe my tools are sharper.

[Ed Morgano]

I must have stupid hands or something but I spent an hour trying to get the darn wheels back round. I got almost zero wobble no side to side but my wheels are still not dressed round. I'll watch Bob's video next. And I got matrix junk all over my clothes and face... I am hating these wheels more now than when I started yesterday.

Jon

Jon,
Are you using a diamond point dresser?

[Jon Prouty]

Jon,
Are you using a diamond point dresser?
No Ed, that T handled one.... A point dresser would probably solve my issues.

Jon

[Roger Chandler]

I would already have had that CBN wheel on the way to me, .............you can keep on going with the ones you have and then end up with the CBN and think "why didn't I do this sooner?!" It only hurts when you have to let go of the $$$$ at first.......then you enjoy the best for years!!! ;):)

[Robert Henrickson]

This has become the classic response to someone on the ledge -- "Jump! Jump!" I think I will be sticking with my WC grinder and its wheels.

[Roger Chandler]

Each person has to evaluate their own situation ........finances available, issues they are dealing with, and the severity of those issues.........and how bad they want something.............that being acknowledged, the results with the CBN are superior to other wheels [I have no interest in what anyone else purchases whatsoever] I just try to share my good experience to others who may be interested, but lack information to judge whether a product is a good one for them.

My advice.........jump only if you really want to and believe the product will enhance the quality of your sharpening! It did that for me!

[Jon Prouty]

Order for my 180 grit CBN wheel has been placed. I'm excited about this one.... Expecting excellent results on my sharpening. The turning, eh... That will take time. :)

Thanks for all those who helped me with this one... Gotta love creekers for helping to nudge one off the ledge. :)

Jon

[Jon Prouty]

Oh yeah... Me thinks those raptor setup guides from CSUSA are pretty nifty too. Wonder which order will get here first?

Jon

[Roger Chandler]

Congrats Jon! Your gouges will be sharper than ever before!

[Jon Prouty]

It is here! All mounted up and spinning. I have a small little side to side wobble but I can live with that (I can get it dead nuts with the nut finger tight but when I crank down a little bit it goes out on me... Just need to play with it a little more when it isn't 115 in the garage). the working face is true and that is awesome. It is weird not having white powder all over :) I did sharpen a couple gouges and they are really nice - again, need to play a bit with pressure and such to get used to the new wheel. I think we have a winner here!

Oh yeah... USPS must have dropped the box - smashed on one side but the internal packaging was great so no damage done. The postal service even was kind enough to put a "box damaged" stamp on it for me.

Jon

[Peter Blair]

Jon, are you sure there was no damage. I run one CBN and one white and have very little vibration and absolutely no wobble on the CBN side.

[Jon Prouty]

Jon, are you sure there was no damage. I run one CBN and one white and have very little vibration and absolutely no wobble on the CBN side.

I am faily confident there was no damage. Dave packs them pretty well and the inner box was surrounded by foam peanuts. No damage to the inner box at all. I just need to work on the rotation on the arbor shaft a bit I think. It is so much better than what I was dealing with before.

Jon

[Prashun Patel]

Play with the pressure? Just touch steel to wheel. No pressure involved besides weight of tool.

[Jon Prouty]

I got it running perfectly perfect now.... Just played around with rotating the wheel on the shaft until it was perfect. Sharpened all the kitchen knives :)

Jon

[Roger Chandler]

I got it running perfectly perfect now.... Just played around with rotating the wheel on the shaft until it was perfect. Sharpened all the kitchen knives :)

Jon

Now you're talkin'..........glad you got it figured out..........you are going to like the results!

[Jeffrey J Smith]

I've got the same Woodcraft grinder - fought trying to keep the wheels true everytime I turned around. After two years of putting up with it, going from norton 3x wheels to trying one of their SG wheels, I finally switched over to D-Way CBN wheels. The difference is amazing - like getting a major grinder upgrade. They come precision balanced, no dust from dressing, twice the surface area, no guards to get it the way. The grinder runs smooth as silk, and runs long enough after turning the switch off to get it a second touch up on a gouge before it actually stops.

Sharpening goes faster and I think I get a much better edge.

Anyone want to make an offer on a set of 3x wheesl, an SG wheel a oneway balancing rig and a couple of diamond dressers? I won't need them ever again.

[paul cottingham]

So just out of curiousity, what grit of CBN wheel would people suggest for grinding chisels and plane irons? Or are they more appropriate for turning tools only?
thanks.

[Bob Bergstrom]

180 grit will sharpen about everything in the shop. It removes metal at a accelerated rate but with a fine edge. Chisels and plane irons would be sharpened very easily. The 1 1/2" wheel works so well for wide even sharpening.

[Don Geiger]

Dear Fellow Woodturners:
I am confident you can correct the problems with your grinders if you follow my three step approach:
1) ditch the plastic bushings in favor of steel bushings
2) correct the side to side wobble using paper sticky dots as shims between the edge of the cup washers and the sides of the wheels.
3) correct the ecentricities in the circumference of the wheels using a wheel truing device (not just a hand-held dresser)

I've done this to about 100 grinders with great success. It's cheap and it works. If anyone wants the procedures in detail, send me a priviate message and I'll email them to you.

[paul cottingham]

Nice. I am trying to find the best way to grind tools with accuracy and speed. I have a belt grinder, but prefer a grinder (I have a cheapish slow speed Delta), but will get divorced if I buy a baldor. A "forever" grinding wheel seems much more sensible.

[Don Geiger]

Paul:
The Delta will work perfectly. You don't need another grinder. You just need to spend about 30 minutes tuning it up. Let me know if you want the instructions emailed to you.

Don Geiger



Nice. I am trying to find the best way to grind tools with accuracy and speed. I have a belt grinder, but prefer a grinder (I have a cheapish slow speed Delta), but will get divorced if I buy a baldor. A "forever" grinding wheel seems much more sensible.