What wire gauge for future 240v machines

[Adrian Anguiano]

It's day 1 of my garage wall demo. I needed some more outlets so since I'm installing a subpanel I decided to rip down the walls and rewire the entire garage. Make the outlets more convienent in location, put in 240v outlets in various areas of the shop and insulate the walls while the drywall is off. See if it will help a few degrees during the Texas Sweaty Summer.

Now to my Question


I currently have 3 240v machines. 2 require 20A and 1 requires 15A. I want to install 6 240V outlets for future expansion. I know it's not a good idea to wire them all with 30A outlets and 30A breakers. But am I correct in thinking that it's best to wire them all with 30A wiring and don't install the breaker or outlet till I know what amperage the tool requires? Am I right in thinking that there is nothing wrong with using a higher amperage wire than needed?

[Steve Meliza]

Yah, you can use the bigger wire and use smaller breaker and outlet to match the tool. If it were me I'd use the 30A breakers and outlets then just wire all my tools with the appropriate 30A plugs. Some say don't do that as the breaker is supposed to protect the tool, but that is contrary to the purpose of the branch circuit breaker per the NEC.

[Jim Neeley]

Adrian,

I'll be getting a new home/shop later this month and plan to do a major wiring upgrade. I'll have to cut out a 2' high strip of sheetrock around my shop (~150') to run the wire in insulated walls, then pay someone to replace and re-mud the sheetrock.

Therefore my plan is to run 10/3 throughout (unless I decide to stick in a large outlet for a future welder or whatever), even though I could generally get away with 12/2 or 12/3. That way, if I want to change a circuit from 120V ro 240V or from 20A to 30A, the wire is already in the walls.

Yes, copper has become "expensive". Here in Alaska, at Home Depot, 250' of 10/3 is $223 vs $135 for 12/3. That's a big step but I feel the extra $88 per 250' will be worth it for me as a pre-investment for the convenience of future modifications or upgrades.

It's very much an issue of time vs. money and I've jad different times in my life where I've had more of onew than the other. If I was willing to risk taking away from my limited woodworking time I could save the money upfront and just plan to cut again as needed in the future. However I get very little (precious) shop time and don't really want to spend it again tearing out the sheetrock, taping and repainting, so I'm choosing to pre-invest.

The code limits the size of breakers based upon the wire size (and load, for motors) but doesn't say you can't use a breaker with oversized wire. I recommend (for 20A circuits) pricing the breaker and I think, even if you wire for 30A, you'll enjoy the added safety and code compliance that the inexpensive 20A breaker provides you until you have a dedicated load in the future requiring a larger breaker.

That said, breakers are not really sized (within reason) to protect the tool, they are sized to protect the in-wall wiring. Otherwise you'd need a 1A breaker for an alarm clock circuit and a couple amp breaker for a TV circuit.

Jim

[Jim Andrew]

When I wired my shop, I had an electrician for a neighbor. Asked him what to wire the shop with for 220, he said run 12/2 with ground, so I did, then bought a MM16. The book on the MM16 said to wire with 10/3, so had to run a dedicated circuit. Then, when I got my sander, it required 8/3. So, hard to plan ahead, unless you know what equipment you will be using.

[Scot wolf]

It's fine to run #10 and just install a 20 amp breaker on it. If you use some types of 20a/240v outlets the #10 may not go under the lugs on it. Just use a #12 pigtail to the outlet in that case. If it were me. I'd run conduit on the surface. That way you could just pull in whatever you needed, when you needed it. You might be able to fine a GOOD electrian to just bend up and install the conduit. Then you could pull in the wires later as needed. Nothing looks better than a nice nice conduit job.
wdo

[Matt Marsh]

Adrian,

Generally speaking, if all you will be plugging in is tools with 15 or 20 amp plugs, use #12 cu wire protected with 20 amp breakers. I see many many times more problems with over stuffed boxes and other problems associated with large and stiff wires than with overloaded ones. If the #12 wire is connected to a 20 amp breaker, it is protected well below the ampacity of the wire. Unnecessarilly oversizing wires is not always better, its generally a waste of money, and it can introduce other problems. If you have a tool or know that you will aquire new tools that require larger circuits, it is most often better to run dedicated circuits to them.

The largest standard sized single gang device box (3X2X3.5) has a internal volume of 18 cu. in., and a max. #10 wire count of 7. That's maxed out with one 10-2 NM in, and one 10-2 NM out, with a single device yoke allowance, and no internal clamps. If you do decide to use #10, do yourself a favor and use boxes with extra capacity, such as 4"X4"X 2-1/8" deep ones with the appropriate depth mud rings, or at the very least, limit single gang device boxes to just one 10-2 NM entry.

[Scott T Smith]

Adrian, are you able to run an empty conduit in the walls? That way you can pull whatever wire that you need in the future.

I did this in my shop; every wall has at least one, large empty conduit run from the main panel distribution to a junction box located in the wall (with a surface mount cover).

If conduit is not an option, your original premise is correct regarding using a larger size wire with a smaller breaker. 10 guage wire is usually good for up to a 5 hp motor.

[Adrian Anguiano]

Adrian, are you able to run an empty conduit in the walls? That way you can pull whatever wire that you need in the future.


I guess I could, I've never done conduit before... sounds like it would add to my expense though since im thinking of running 6 240 lines.

[Adrian Anguiano]

Adrian,
Unnecessarilly oversizing wires is not always better, its generally a waste of money, and it can introduce other problems. If you have a tool or know that you will aquire new tools that require larger circuits, it is most often better to run dedicated circuits to them.

What other problems come up? And all the 240 circuits I'm installing will be single outlets.

[Adrian Anguiano]

It's fine to run #10 and just install a 20 amp breaker on it. If you use some types of 20a/240v outlets the #10 may not go under the lugs on it. Just use a #12 pigtail to the outlet in that case. If it were me. I'd run conduit on the surface. That way you could just pull in whatever you needed, when you needed it. You might be able to fine a GOOD electrian to just bend up and install the conduit. Then you could pull in the wires later as needed. Nothing looks better than a nice nice conduit job.
wdo


Hmm maybe i should look into this.

[David Hawxhurst]

i like scott's idea of putting conduit in the wall and run the wire as needed. if i had to prewire for tooling i would go with 50A capable at each outlet. i was under the impression the circuit breaker was there to protect the wire not the load. most load devices (tool, etc) generally have their own protection circuit (devices) built in.

[Adrian Anguiano]

When I wired my shop, I had an electrician for a neighbor. Asked him what to wire the shop with for 220, he said run 12/2 with ground, so I did, then bought a MM16. The book on the MM16 said to wire with 10/3, so had to run a dedicated circuit. Then, when I got my sander, it required 8/3. So, hard to plan ahead, unless you know what equipment you will be using.

What requires 3 wires with ground? I was planning on running 10/2 to everything. Is that a bad idea?

[Adrian Anguiano]

i like scott's idea of putting conduit in the wall and run the wire as needed. if i had to prewire for tooling i would go with 50A capable at each outlet. i was under the impression the circuit breaker was there to protect the wire not the load. most load devices (tool, etc) generally have their own protection circuit (devices) built in.

Most of the books I read talked about protecting both the wire and outlet from burning, but my machine manuals also talk about not using a big breaker to limit tool damage. So I figure i guess its more protection from liablity for companies i guess

[Scot wolf]

If you run metal conduit it can be the ground....no need to spend money on or run another ground. You can probably run everything you need in a 1" conduit with some room to spare. I'd use 1" conduit with a "4 square" box every 5' along the wall. That way you could add one outlet at each 4 square or 2 if you needed to. You could also have a 120 outlet and a 220 volt outlet in each location. Or 2- 220 volt at each location...... you get the idea.....lots of options. And you can change it later as needed.

[Matt Marsh]

It all has to do with sizing everything. Leg bone connected to the ankle bone kinda thing. Bigger wire means bigger boxes, fittings, splices, and conduit if used. Its harder to terminate the larger wire to the device. Its much easier to damage devices, pinch wires, loosen terminals and splices as they are pushed back into the box with the stiffer wire. Stranded wire in conduit helps, but you still need to size everything accordingly. Also be aware that if you ever do convert the circuit to a 30 amp one, it becomes useless for tools that come factory equipped or require 15 or 20 amp cord and plugs. It is a code violation to install 15 or 20 amp receptacles on a 30 amp circuit, and you would violate the manufacturer's listing if you installed a 30 amp plug on the tool.

When you say that "all the 240 volt circuits will be single outlets", do you mean each receptacle will alone on its own breaker?

[Adrian Anguiano]

Also be aware that if you ever do convert the circuit to a 30 amp one, it becomes useless for tools that come factory equipped or require 15 or 20 amp cord and plugs. It is a code violation to install 15 or 20 amp receptacles on a 30 amp circuit, and you would violate the manufacturer's listing if you installed a 30 amp plug on the tool.

When you say that "all the 240 volt circuits will be single outlets", do you mean each receptacle will alone on its own breaker?


Yes I mean each receptacle will have its own breaker.

And if I installed 30 amp wire, then got a tool that needed 15A, then I would change the breaker and the recepticle both, but leave the 30 amp wire the same.

[Adrian Anguiano]

If you run metal conduit it can be the ground....no need to spend money on or run another ground. You can probably run everything you need in a 1" conduit with some room to spare. I'd use 1" conduit with a "4 square" box every 5' along the wall. That way you could add one outlet at each 4 square or 2 if you needed to. You could also have a 120 outlet and a 220 volt outlet in each location. Or 2- 220 volt at each location...... you get the idea.....lots of options. And you can change it later as needed.

Hey Scot, What type of conduit would you suggest if I was going to run it inside the walls? How bout if i installed it outside the walls?

[Jim Neeley]

Adrian,

There are two uses for 3 wires + ground. In the U.S. our 240VAC is actually two 120V legs out of phase with each other. Between the two legs we measure 240V but from either to ground there's 120V. The 3 wires permits both 240V and 120V at the device. An example is your typical range where the clock, oven light, etc. runs on 120V but the heating elements run on 240V.

The other application (carefully implemented) will permit two (out of phase) breakers to be transmitted over the 3 wires. With 3 wires you can deliver an extra circuit to a box by terminating both ends but without running additional wires. I like that ability. :-)

Jim

[Scot wolf]

Hey Scot, What type of conduit would you suggest if I was going to run it inside the walls? How bout if i installed it outside the walls?

Same thing. 3/4" or 1" metal. It's a little harder to run in the wall running along or perpedicular to the studs.

[Adrian Anguiano]

Adrian,

There are two uses for 3 wires + ground. In the U.S. our 240VAC is actually two 120V legs out of phase with each other. Between the two legs we measure 240V but from either to ground there's 120V. The 3 wires permits both 240V and 120V at the device. An example is your typical range where the clock, oven light, etc. runs on 120V but the heating elements run on 240V.

The other application (carefully implemented) will permit two (out of phase) breakers to be transmitted over the 3 wires. With 3 wires you can deliver an extra circuit to a box by terminating both ends but without running additional wires. I like that ability. :-)

Jim


If we are talking just stoves, then it seems I should be fine just running 10-2

[Steve Meliza]

I think it is worth reiterating that this thread is asking about 6 "home run" branch circuits for 240V loads and not standard 120V receptacles that would be pointless as well as a pain to wire with #10. The last 240V outlet that I installed had screw terminals that would have no problems fitting #10 wire and I kind of wish I had used #10 instead of #12, but for now it is enough and when I did the install it was a lot cheaper to do all #12 than mix #10 and #12 as I purchased 500' rolls of #12 THHN. Metal conduit (EMT) is cheap ($2 for 10' around here), easy to bend (get a bender, there is no black art to it), provides excellent protection from physical damage, is easy to install, doesn't poke holes in studs, and provides maximum flexibility for future changes in your tools. For reasons I'll cover in a moment, I ran two runs of 1/2" EMT from my panel and along the walls of my work area. One provides 120V outlets every 4' and the other is for dedicated "home" run circuits for serving a single 120V or 240V load such as my table saw.

Keeping in mind this is for dedicated 240V outlets I think you should stick with #10 THHN in conduit or NM 12/2 run through the walls. A word on EMT or any other conduit, you can't simply buy 1" EMT and jam it full of the 12 wires (plus optional ground) that you need for the 6 circuits. Yes, you can put 16 #10 wires in 1" EMT (2011 NEC table C1), but you have to de-rate the capacity of the wire if you have more than 3 current carrying conductors in a conduit due to heat build up. For 4-6 current carrying conductors the wire capacity is 80%, for 7-9 it is 70%, and 10-20 you're down to 50% (NEC 2011 table 310.15(b)(3)(a)). For the purposes of de-rating only #10 THHN is rated 40A so now your 12 #10 wires inside a single 1" EMT conduit are only allowed to carry 20A each. To get around this you can up-size the wires, but 1" EMT can only house 9 #8 or 7 #6 so you're worse off than before. The moral of this example is that you should stick to 1/2" or 3/4" as you're limited to 6 wires per conduit if you want to run 30A in #10 THHN wires.

Another reason not to run too many wires in a conduit is that you'll want to have some outlet boxes. As pointed out previously your boxes have to be large enough to allow everything that goes through it so if your first outlet has 2 wires that connect to it, and 10 wires that pass through, then you need a box with 35 cubic inches. The only way to get this is with a 4" square metal box 2-1/8" deep and an extension ring out outlet cover adding at least 5 additional cubic inches (you'd probably need the extension ring) or else you'd have to use 4-11/16" square boxes 2-1/8" deep (good luck finding outlet covers for these boxes at your local home improvement store).

If you run EMT everywhere you can use it as a ground connection, just make sure to run a ground wire from each outlet to the metal box. 1/2" EMT can be used for a ground on a circuit up to 30A. Many professional electricians don't like to use the EMT as the ground and will run a ground wire inside the conduit as well, the choice is yours. Ironically, my #12 ground wire can't be used on a 30A circuit so if I ever pulled some #10 for a 30A circuit I'd have to leave the ground disconnected to meet code.

[Jim O'Dell]

Adrian, just to let you know what I did, I ran 10/2 w/gnd for all my 220 outlets. Like you're planning, each of my outlets are on their own breaker. All my 110 circuits are 12/2 w/gnd. I got lucky when I was wiring my shop, Home Depot was moving from the Cherry Ln. location out to 820. I got 2 partial rolls of wire. Enough 10 gauge to do all my circuits, and the 12 gauge did about half. All at 50 or 75%,can't remember now, off!! Had to get 2 smaller packages of 12 gauge to finish that part. 3 of my 220 outlets, and 4 of the 110s are in the ceiling with twistlock outlets for security. I have found that I really like them up out of the way...no cords to trip over. Both table saws run power up to them (the lines attach to the DC down pipe so they are out of the way), and I have a spare for the future jointer. My BS plugs into a wall 220 (it used to be in one of the ceiling plugs before I got the 691).
I'd think trying to run conduit inside the wall at this point would be virtually impossible, even with PVC conduit. You might consider just cutting out a band of drywall around the garage, er shop for the height you want the outlets to be, run the wire and mount the outlets. Less drywall to buy and redo. If you're careful, you can reuse the pieces you cut out to go back. Tape and mud over 1/8" cuts wouldn't be a problem. And if you are careful, you could probably stuff batts of insulation up and down each cavity. Or blow insulation in afterwards. Might not get a good vapor barrier either of these two ways though.
Are you getting an electrical permit from Benbrook? Most everyone I dealt with in Benbrook were great to work with when we lived there. Let me know if I can help! Jim.

[Roy Turbett]

Adrian,

There are two uses for 3 wires + ground. In the U.S. our 240VAC is actually two 120V legs out of phase with each other. Between the two legs we measure 240V but from either to ground there's 120V. The 3 wires permits both 240V and 120V at the device. An example is your typical range where the clock, oven light, etc. runs on 120V but the heating elements run on 240V.

Jim

When I rebuilt my PM 90 lathe I used 10/3 wire for the same reason you describe. I ran 240v to the VFD and added a 120v outlet to run my sander. The 2 HP VFD draws 18 amps and the circuit should ideally be able to handle 1 1/2 times the maximum load or 27 amps. Thus 10 gauge wire and 30 amp breaker.

[Adrian Anguiano]

I think it is worth reiterating that this thread is asking about 6 "home run" branch circuits for 240V loads and not standard 120V receptacles that would be pointless as well as a pain to wire with #10. The last 240V outlet that I installed had screw terminals that would have no problems fitting #10 wire and I kind of wish I had used #10 instead of #12, but for now it is enough and when I did the install it was a lot cheaper to do all #12 than mix #10 and #12 as I purchased 500' rolls of #12 THHN. Metal conduit (EMT) is cheap ($2 for 10' around here), easy to bend (get a bender, there is no black art to it), provides excellent protection from physical damage, is easy to install, doesn't poke holes in studs, and provides maximum flexibility for future changes in your tools. For reasons I'll cover in a moment, I ran two runs of 1/2" EMT from my panel and along the walls of my work area. One provides 120V outlets every 4' and the other is for dedicated "home" run circuits for serving a single 120V or 240V load such as my table saw.

Keeping in mind this is for dedicated 240V outlets I think you should stick with #10 THHN in conduit or NM 12/2 run through the walls. A word on EMT or any other conduit, you can't simply buy 1" EMT and jam it full of the 12 wires (plus optional ground) that you need for the 6 circuits. Yes, you can put 16 #10 wires in 1" EMT (2011 NEC table C1), but you have to de-rate the capacity of the wire if you have more than 3 current carrying conductors in a conduit due to heat build up. For 4-6 current carrying conductors the wire capacity is 80%, for 7-9 it is 70%, and 10-20 you're down to 50% (NEC 2011 table 310.15(b)(3)(a)). For the purposes of de-rating only #10 THHN is rated 40A so now your 12 #10 wires inside a single 1" EMT conduit are only allowed to carry 20A each. To get around this you can up-size the wires, but 1" EMT can only house 9 #8 or 7 #6 so you're worse off than before. The moral of this example is that you should stick to 1/2" or 3/4" as you're limited to 6 wires per conduit if you want to run 30A in #10 THHN wires.

Another reason not to run too many wires in a conduit is that you'll want to have some outlet boxes. As pointed out previously your boxes have to be large enough to allow everything that goes through it so if your first outlet has 2 wires that connect to it, and 10 wires that pass through, then you need a box with 35 cubic inches. The only way to get this is with a 4" square metal box 2-1/8" deep and an extension ring out outlet cover adding at least 5 additional cubic inches (you'd probably need the extension ring) or else you'd have to use 4-11/16" square boxes 2-1/8" deep (good luck finding outlet covers for these boxes at your local home improvement store).

If you run EMT everywhere you can use it as a ground connection, just make sure to run a ground wire from each outlet to the metal box. 1/2" EMT can be used for a ground on a circuit up to 30A. Many professional electricians don't like to use the EMT as the ground and will run a ground wire inside the conduit as well, the choice is yours. Ironically, my #12 ground wire can't be used on a 30A circuit so if I ever pulled some #10 for a 30A circuit I'd have to leave the ground disconnected to meet code.


That puts a damper on using conduit to run all my 240 lines, having to derate #10 wire. I wouldnt run all 6 outlets through 1 conduit if I did it that way; but I would need to run 3 240 outlets through it. So that would be 6 hot wires. What size wire would I need then, to power a 30A 240 plug?

Do you run EMT just like you would romex? And clamp the EMT to the verticle studs? How about going through the 2 by 4's horizontally along the wall? Can you drill a hole in the stud to run the pipe through, just like you do with romex?

[Steve Meliza]

You should be fine running 6 #10 wires at 30A in each EMT. 1/2" EMT can only have 5 #10 wires in it so if you wanted to stick to just two runs of EMT you'd need to go with 3/4" EMT.

EMT is usually run on the wall surface and held on with metal clips/retainers than you can nail or screw into the wall or studs behind the wall. If you wanted to imbed the EMT in the wall I think you'd have to notch the studs. Even if the wall is load bearing you shouldn't have any trouble putting 3/4"x3/4" notches in them if that is how you want to go.

If you don't like the look of exposed EMT or don't want to mess with notching it into the stud or having to bend conduit then maybe running NM through the studs is your best option. EMT is more easily upgraded later on, but using 6 runs NM 10/2 is already hedging your bet a lot.

[Adrian Anguiano]

You should be fine running 6 #10 wires at 30A in each EMT. 1/2" EMT can only have 5 #10 wires in it so if you wanted to stick to just two runs of EMT you'd need to go with 3/4" EMT.

EMT is usually run on the wall surface and held on with metal clips/retainers than you can nail or screw into the wall or studs behind the wall. If you wanted to imbed the EMT in the wall I think you'd have to notch the studs. Even if the wall is load bearing you shouldn't have any trouble putting 3/4"x3/4" notches in them if that is how you want to go.

If you don't like the look of exposed EMT or don't want to mess with notching it into the stud or having to bend conduit then maybe running NM through the studs is your best option. EMT is more easily upgraded later on, but using 6 runs NM 10/2 is already hedging your bet a lot.

Yeah, I guess just running NM would be best. I guess now im only second guessing myself considering a few people above said they ended up using machines that needed 10-3. I dont like running 10-3 unless the machine calls for it; cause then you have an extra loose wire you just have to cap on each end which is weird.

Maybe ill just cross my fingers and hope ill never get a machine that needs more than 10-2. I guess at that point I could go the emt route since my walls will be up.

[Scot wolf]

Have you thought about what 6 10-2 w/g looks like? That one large hole you'll have to drill! Plus, it will cost more than running conductors in pipe. You'll be fine with 3/4" or 1" conduit w/ 6 conductors. No need to spend $ on larger (or more #'s)than needed and never use it. Just run surface mounted conduit and pull in as needed.

[Phil Thien]

It's fine to run #10 and just install a 20 amp breaker on it. If you use some types of 20a/240v outlets the #10 may not go under the lugs on it. Just use a #12 pigtail to the outlet in that case. If it were me. I'd run conduit on the surface. That way you could just pull in whatever you needed, when you needed it. You might be able to fine a GOOD electrian to just bend up and install the conduit. Then you could pull in the wires later as needed. Nothing looks better than a nice nice conduit job.
wdo

I think this is excellent advice. A sort of modular wiring system.

[Phil Thien]

Have you thought about what 6 10-2 w/g looks like? That one large hole you'll have to drill! Plus, it will cost more than running conductors in pipe. You'll be fine with 3/4" or 1" conduit w/ 6 conductors. No need to spend $ on larger (or more #'s)than needed and never use it. Just run surface mounted conduit and pull in as needed.

Also, if a panel is centrally located on the back wall of the garage, then half the circuits go one direction, the other half go the other. So the boxes and conduit aren't nearly as stuffed as if you were trying to run them all in a single line.

Also, you can run TWO lines of conduit. I see it done in shops all the time. Half the circuits go in each.

Very flexible, safe, easy for a new homeowner to rip out if they don't want all the electrical in the shop, etc.

If you ever plan on selling your home, having a ton of difficult to remote 10-2 burried in the walls may be a turnoff for some people. Just sayin'.

[David Kumm]

I'm a fan of conduit for the flexibility to change your mind. I run both single and three phase and found in my world #8 run around the shop with fusible disconnects was the cheapest and most flexible. $30-40 each on fleabay, can change them out, and generally you only need a few if placed strategically. A 5 hp single phase machine with a power feeder gets pretty close to too much for a #10 wire. Dave

[Adrian Anguiano]

Have you thought about what 6 10-2 w/g looks like? That one large hole you'll have to drill! Plus, it will cost more than running conductors in pipe. You'll be fine with 3/4" or 1" conduit w/ 6 conductors. No need to spend $ on larger (or more #'s)than needed and never use it. Just run surface mounted conduit and pull in as needed.

Yes, but since there will be 3 outlets on each of my 2 walls. It wont be that big of a hole. The price is about 120$ for 250ft of 10-2 cable. And to get 3 rolls of 500ft wire(blk,white,green) for conduit looked like around $50 a roll. So probably not too much of a price difference.


Very flexible, safe, easy for a new homeowner to rip out if they don't want all the electrical in the shop, etc.

If you ever plan on selling your home, having a ton of difficult to remote 10-2 burried in the walls may be a turnoff for some people. Just sayin'.

That is very true. Id hate to spend the money again, but if I got a new house I probably would want to redesign the entire layout based on the space, so im not sure if it would be worth ripping and taking anyways. I told my wife if we ever move, that i must have a dedicated workshop space or im staying put. :)

[Phil Thien]

That is very true. Id hate to spend the money again, but if I got a new house I probably would want to redesign the entire layout based on the space, so im not sure if it would be worth ripping and taking anyways. I told my wife if we ever move, that i must have a dedicated workshop space or im staying put. :)

No, my point wasn't that you'd be able to remove and reuse it. My point is, you'd be able to remove it when the time comes to sell your home, if need be.

You'd be amazed at what people will object to when it comes to buying a home.

A friend sells real estate. There was a BEAUTIFUL little house near here that had TWO laundry areas. Basically, an upstairs closet was turned into a second laundry "room," with new front-loading units. It was a NICE job. My friend had told me I should look at the place, "this one is selling the first day," he said.

But the owners left the previous washer/dryer in the basement. The first four or five couples that looked at the house thought it was weird.

Well, after a bunch of people walked through and commented on the two sets of washers/dryers (and each time my friend said, "just remove the ones in the basement, it will take ten minutes, I will do it for you," well after all these people walked through and said "that is odd," my friend told the owners that he was going to pull the old washer/dryer, which he did the next day before the open house.

The next three couples that walked through wanted to make offers.

The moral of the story is, don't make too many changes that may not appeal to new owners, unless the changes are reversible. If you ever decide to sell, this could be important.