Bandsaw Considerations

[Joshua Davis]

Hello

I am newly registered to SMC, been lurking off and on for a couple years, though and have enjoyed the insight of many who post here. Lately I have been sifting through bandsaw threads that have been posted here over the years and from that gleaned some pretty good background for my current endeavor. Thought I would jump in and throw my thoughts on the table regarding my search for a bandsaw upgrade. Sold my Grizzly Ultimate 14" to a friend a while back and now am beginning to delve seriously into replacement options. Hope to have something in place by late summer/early fall. Would love to go to the show in Atlanta but that is a 13-14 hour drive for me - we'll see, maybe if I can't get things figured out ahead of that I could still go.

I certainly understand there is some great "old iron" out there that might make sense for a refurb project, but I don't really have the time for that right now with young kids and a pressing full time job - maybe another day. Also, the approach of waiting for great deal on a "newer" used machine on Craigslist isn't going so well simply due to the "numbers" game ... I am not close to any huge metro areas where these more rare machines are likely to be. I am prepared to drop some money on a serious machine but I am not making a purchase without value in mind. For that reason, I placed a broader than usual price range on this search - $2000-4000. I am not a professional woodworker, but have hopefully alot of quality hobby years ahead of me so I want to get a machine that gives me good capability range that won't leave me wanting for an upgrade in a few years ... decent resaw, cut width and power. For the next few years this saw would be my only bandsaw and would support mostly traditional woodworking projects, however, I would like to get a saw, that with the proper blade, I could cut decent sized green turning blanks from logs someday when a lathe fits into the budget. For now, decent stock blade guides will be fine, someday I might upgrade to Laguna if I don't purchase a Laguna from the start. Highest priority upgrade for this bandsaw (outside of good resaw blade) would be a Driftmaster Fence but that could probably wait. So if you could comment on compatibility or unique limitations of your machine with this accessory if you have experience, it would be appreciated. Also if you have thoughts on the fence that came standard with any of these machines, that info would be helpful as well.

I will try to paste a table of specs (not totally complete, may have an error or two) on different machines I have put together for discussion purposes. I left prices I have gathered off this table because I am not sure what the rules are on that and it just seemed like it would distract from the technical discussion. In the end I may overlay the pricing on this for further discussion. Not sure how this will format once I post it ... hopefully it is not a MESS!!! Let me know your thoughts. THANKS!








Blade

Table

Blade


Blade

Table

Wheel

Tbl Ht/



Make

Model

Resaw

Throat

Weight

Guide

Tilt

Size

Motor

Brake

Size

Size

Mach Ht



















"Ideal"

16+

20+

600+

Laguna

45/5+

1/8-1 1/4

4+

FB w MS

NA

NA

35+




"Minimum"

12

17

450

Euro

20

1/4-1

3

FB

NA

NA

33



Agazzani

B24

17 3/4

22 3/4

660

Euro

45

3/16-1 1/2

4.8

FB w MS

23.3X32

24

?/83.5



Agazzani

B20

14 1/2

19

474

Euro

45

3/16 - 1 1/4

3

FB w MS

19.4X26.5

20

?/76



Mini Max

MM20

20

19 1/2

635

Euro

45

1/8 - 1 1/4

4.8


19.75x27.75

20

35/?



Grizzly

G0531B

14

20

594

dbl rllr bxg

45R5L

1/4 - 1 3/8

5

Mtr Brake

20.7X29.5


35.5/?



Felder

FB600

16 1/4

22 5/8

726

Euro

0-20

3/8 - 1 1/4

5.5

FB w MS

22X33.5

23 5/8

33/80 3/8



Laguna

LT-20

20 3/8

19

585

Laguna

45

1/8 - 1.375

6

FB w MS

15x29

20?

35/86



Grizzly

G0636X

16

17

620

dbl rllr bxg

45R5L

1/8 - 1 3/8

5

FB

21X25.5


35.5/?



Grizzly

G0701

19

19

717

dbl rllr bxg

45R5L

3/8 - 1 3/8

5

FB

24X28


35.25/?

[Kirk Poore]

Unless you're going to make you're own veneer, I think that resaw capacity is overrated. I've had two 14" saws (one with a riser, the other without) and a 30" saw. For me, table size & height is a much more important consideration. My 14" Jet table was much too high. My PM 140 and Hall & Brown #144 tables are lower and easier to use, and of course the H&B table is _much_ larger. Easily adjusted blade guides are important too.

Kirk

[Joshua Davis]

Unless you're going to make you're own veneer, I think that resaw capacity is overrated. I've had two 14" saws (one with a riser, the other without) and a 30" saw. For me, table size & height is a much more important consideration. My 14" Jet table was much too high. My PM 140 and Hall & Brown #144 tables are lower and easier to use, and of course the H&B table is _much_ larger. Easily adjusted blade guides are important too.

Kirk

Kirk - What table height range do you like and why? How tall are you?

[Kirk Poore]

Kirk - What table height range do you like and why? How tall are you?

I'm 5'10". I won't be home until Sunday so can't measure the table heights, but I think the H&B height is 34" at most. The Jet height was probably at least 42", though the wheels boosted that up. The Powermatic is somewhere towards the lower end of that range. H&B table size is 32 x 34, IIRC, not counting the aux table between the main table and the cast arm.

Kirk

[Carl Beckett]

You know, given a very reasonable budget I would recommend that you purchase TWO saws.

A grizzly, with a relatively wide blade and leave it set up for resaw and rips.

And

A small 14" with a narrow blade for scrolly work.

Indirectly this is what I ended up with, and its really nice not to have to swap out blades all the time.

[Peter Kuhlman]

I agree with Carl. As I am space limited I can't do multiple bandsaws. I am sure Van will be along soon to add how you really need about 10 bandsaws with each having a different blade!!!!:D And he is right!!

Seriously, it would be fantastic to have a resaw machine and a general purpose one set up. Blade changes are a pain as you have to readjust tracking and the guides.

[Joseph Tarantino]

great list, joshua. best of all, you're avoiding the jet/powermatic trap. not a single wmh tool group product on the list. you're off to a great start!

[Joshua Davis]

You know, given a very reasonable budget I would recommend that you purchase TWO saws.

A grizzly, with a relatively wide blade and leave it set up for resaw and rips.

And

A small 14" with a narrow blade for scrolly work.

Indirectly this is what I ended up with, and its really nice not to have to swap out blades all the time.

Carl - Hmmm ... two saws. Sounds like an idea worth considering. My shop isn't huge, but lets keep it on the table for discussion purposes. Taking this approach, I guess at the 14" end of the deal I would go for a Laguna, primarily due to the great blade guides (which wouldn't utilized as much for big resawing blades/jobs that would be accomodated on the bigger saw), and would maybe look for an opportunity to get a "package" deal with the Driftmaster fence and maybe a mobility kit. What are your thoughts at the re-saw end of the two saw approach? 531B, or 514X2B? Can you move a Driftmaster between saws? What is a good blade size for most jobs to put on the smaller saw?

[Prashun Patel]

I agree with Carl. If you are serious hobbyist then some of the Grizzly G0514 models will be all you'll need for anything but production resawing. THe G0514x2 is only about $1500. That still leaves you a few hundred for a very good G0555, which can be permanently chucked with a narrow blade.

Having owned both of these saws, I can vouch that they'll do all a hobbyist could want. The biggest headache for me is changing and retensioning blades. Not wanting to do that forces me sometimes to use a suboptimal blade for the task at hand - which will make all the other specs on yr saw moot.

[Joshua Davis]

Peter - what kind of blade would you run on your small bandsaw setup? How big would you run on resaw. Is there any advantage about 1" really?

[Joshua Davis]

great list, joshua. best of all, you're avoiding the jet/powermatic trap. not a single wmh tool group product on the list. you're off to a great start!

Joseph - I was kind of surprised to see JET's poor recent history in the bandsaw arena. I wanted to like one since they are the most accessible anywhere you go (I can even go buy one in town!), it just seems when you can't get the basics right, like reasonable spine stiffness, it makes you wonder what else they got wrong. I DO have a PM planer and a PM table saw in my shop that I love and wouldn't trade. The PM bandsaws are intrigueing, but with the price you would think that THEY were the Italian saws in vs the MM, Laguna and Agg's. They don't seem to have the enthusiastic following you see for PM tablesaws and planers as near as I can tell. Why is this? They LOOK legit? Do they do the little things poorly?

[Van Huskey]

Joseph - I was kind of surprised to see JET's poor recent history in the bandsaw arena. I wanted to like one since they are the most accessible anywhere you go (I can even go buy one in town!), it just seems when you can't get the basics right, like reasonable spine stiffness, it makes you wonder what else they got wrong. I DO have a PM planer and a PM table saw in my shop that I love and wouldn't trade. The PM bandsaws are intrigueing, but with the price you would think that THEY were the Italian saws in vs the MM, Laguna and Agg's. They don't seem to have the enthusiastic following you see for PM tablesaws and planers as near as I can tell. Why is this? They LOOK legit? Do they do the little things poorly?to be complete.

Nothing wrong with the current Jet line, they are definately not low price leaders. The small PM line (2 saws) are priced a little on the high side but they are feature packed. One interesting thing is Louis Iturra (who knows more about bandsaws than ANYONE here, especially smaller 14" cast saws picks the PM saws as his favorite in the two classes they fit). In MY opinion there is nothing wrong at all with the Jet/PM line of saws except you can find saws at a cheaper price, however the PM saws are probably the most feature packed of any saw on the market. My post regarding which saw(s) to buy will come later, too busy at the second

[David Kumm]

I know you are looking at new but particularly if you go the two saw route I would look used for the big one. Small saws don't have that big a price advantage but larger ones do. I would look at a used Centauro, Aggi, Felder-Bridgewood-ACM in the 24" range and use the extra money for good blades and maybe a vfd if three phase. My saws are 1936,1938, and 1953 so age won't hurt. steel saws in the 24" range come in at 1500-2000 for a pretty nice machine. Dave

[Sam Layton]

Joshua,

First of all, welcome to the Creek. This is my thinking, if you are going to spend the kind of money you are talking about. My first choice would be the MM20, or better yet the MM24. Those saws will last you a life time.

I only have 4 bandsaws. I have recently become interested in old Iron, and have an old Davis and Wells 20" saw I will be restoring soon. I don't like to change blades, so I have two MM S45's that I purchased many years ago. They are as good as the day I purchased them. I did not like the idea of cutting wet wood for turning with my good MM saws. If the wood is wet it can cause rust issues if you don't clean up good after cutting. That is my thinking anyway. So I purchased a used, cheap, 14" bandsaw for just cutting wet wood. I think I paid $250.00 for the saw. It will cut blanks all day long.

It's funny, I purchased an old Dewalt GWI radial arm saw a while back, and the guy had a Davis and Wells 20" bandsaw that really looked good and I liked it a lot. It was not for sale. And Davis Kumm always talks about how he likes cast iron bandsaws convinced me that I needed to try one. So I purchased my Davis and Wells.

Good Luck, Sam

[Carl Beckett]

I will let others chime in on the differences of the grizzly saws, but if I were choosing based on saw guides I would pick the best guides for the smaller saw. If you get a larger Resaw setup the blade tension makes the guides less critical.

And I like the Laguna ceramic guides. For blade width I might put a 1/4 or 3/8 on the small saw as a general purpose blade.

A Resaw blade depending on what the saw can tension. Maybe 3/4" is a good start. ( plenty here can chime in. I have a Resaw king on a Laguna 18. Works flawlessly )

A lot of people like the Rikon saws, I didn't see that listed. (possible candidate for the smaller saw?)

[Van Huskey]

First, I am a used fan, you aren't, I can respect that, someone has to buy them new!

Second, I like multiple saws, one for every basic blade you use, not everyone wants to devote the room or money to that approach but 2 saws is really a good idea.

Whether or not you are considering adding a second saw I would buy the best main saw you can. Out of your list the MM20 certainly is the cream of the crop in my eyes. (I think you have it's weight listed incorrectly, it is the heaviest of the ones you listed, also I see at least one other small error but not a big deal).

The MM20 covers your ideal across the board except for guides. I also really like the Laguna guides BUT I haven't replaced the Euro guides on my resaw machines since guides are almost a non-issue with resawing so depending on how you plan to use the saw (really more a question of if you plan to have 2 saws or just one). Mike Heidrick at least used to have a set of instructions for mounting the Driftmaster on a MM20 on his website, in any event it isn't a big deal.

Although, I could bounce it around for days my absolute first choice would be the MM20 out of your listed saws (or any saw in your price range new). If I were you I would buy the MM20 and then take my time and troll for a small 14-16" second saw. I wouldn't bother with the Laguna guides unless you just want them, you only plan to keep one saw and/or you plan to use the MM for cuts the Laguna guides are really useful for.

Most of the machines you list have low tables, you want this for resawing, I like a lot higher table for countour cutting.

So I guess I want to know are you considering a second saw or do you want a "Leatherman" tool?

[Mike Heidrick]

http://myplace.frontier.com/~unix888/lagunaceramicguideinstallonminimaxmm20replacingthe originalbearingguides/

http://myplace.frontier.com/~unix888/lagunadriftmasterfenceinstallonminimaxmm20bandsawr eplacingtheoriginalfence/

I don't hinestly feel the need for the ceramic guides really but they work great just the same. Got a deal on them.

the driftmaster is amazing. Not really needed with a bandsaw feeder though.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

You should edit your profile and add your location, someone might know of a really good deal near you. I now have a Laguna 18 and an Inca 340 (10 1/2 inch very precise bandsaw). A great combination and I have only about $2000 invested in the two. Today someone on the Inca bandsaw list was advertising an Inca 710 for about $500. That's a very precise Swiss 20 inch bandsaw Not much depth of cut for veneer, but a great saw for the curves. Combine that with a minimax, Laguna or aggy and you'd still be under budget

[Scot wolf]

I have a 21" Grizz that I like a lot. Bought used with a ton of blades and it had seen VERY little use. I am always on the hunt for decent used WW tools. Rarely do I paid more than 50 cents on the dollar.

[Van Huskey]

You should edit your profile and add your location, someone might know of a really good deal near you. I now have a Laguna 18 and an Inca 340 (10 1/2 inch very precise bandsaw). A great combination and I have only about $2000 invested in the two. Today someone on the Inca bandsaw list was advertising an Inca 710 for about $500. That's a very precise Swiss 20 inch bandsaw Not much depth of cut for veneer, but a great saw for the curves. Combine that with a minimax, Laguna or aggy and you'd still be under budget

Someone just sold a 340 for $400 on CL in...Idaho, it looked pristine, had it been close to me I would have grabbed it. The Inca is an excellent second saw especially if you are space challenged.

[Joshua Davis]

Van

Seems that alot of folks share the 2 saw sentiment. I can definitely see the wisdom in that because nobody likes to mess with a machine that is setup and dialed in to do a particular job well. I would have to maybe rethink my shop layout but that's doable. Ultimately, I think I want to look at both paths (2 machine vs "Leatherman" single machine approach) for now and make a decision based on what materializes in the next week or two.

As far as used equipment, allow me to clarify - I am totally open to the idea of a used machine. The over riding limitation is that I am without a bandsaw currently and would like to be up and running with one in 8 weeks or so in time for "sawdust season" this fall and winter. Modern big machines that don't need restoration don't come up online very often for sale within a reasonable driving distance from me (eastern Iowa). I am not against doing work on a machine either, but that option would best be suited to a second machine should I go the 2 machine path.

My thoughts on 2 machines:

First machine has to be flexible and ideally do a decent amount of things well. Seems like a good value option might be the Laguna 14" SUV (new or used). I realize this isn't a cheap saw, but hear me out. It provides decent power, respectable re-saw and has the Laguna guides that ideally I would have on my "small saw" option longterm anyway, right? As I understand it, top end guides aren't as important on your 2nd "Big Saw" since you are using a larger blade that won't drift. Additionally, I might be able to leverage accessories in a package deal that would be useful out of the gate ... like a 3/4" RK and a Driftmaster fence (that could even be moved to the Big Saw later). With this first saw in place I could take my time hunting for the best value for a Big Saw, used, restoration project or new. Other ideas/options?

As far as the "Leatherman" option ... what are your thoughts? Again, remember - given time constraints this may end up having to be a new machine. By definition, it would have to be a Big Saw that is flexible enought to do curve work and the finer stuff assuming I am willing to dicker with setup and adjustments as will be necessary to switch between applications. I know you have a MM-20 and seem to feel pretty strongly about that choice. They look rock solid and I am strongly considering them. That said, you have been pretty emphatic in prior posts about the B-24 being a GREAT value for all its capabilities. Has your belief in that regard changed for any particular reason? I will share more particulars on my thoughts about the big saw options as far as what I have learned so far versus what I think may serve me the best in the long run, but I want to get your un-jaded view first.

[Joshua Davis]

Bill

Thanks for the ideas. I will look at modifying my profile. I am in eastern Iowa. Driveable markets for me are K.C, St. Louis, Chicago, Milwaukee, Twin Cities. What is the Inca bandsaw list? I will check it out.

[Joshua Davis]

David

I like your thoughts on this. Will keep it in mind. What does a vfd setup run cost wise?

[Roger Myers]

Joshua...welcome..
I will only add a couple of points...
I am also in the multiple saw camp...have three at the moment, but wouldn't want less than 2. One is is a Laguna LT20 equipped with a driftmaster fence and a 1 1/4" resawking blade.
Second is a Jet 18" that I also used to resaw on before I added the Laguna. This now sports a 3/8" blade.
The third is a small saw with a small blade for tight curves....
You can search SMC or my profile and find my review of the Laguna.

Regarding the driftmaster fence... I love it, but not because of the ability to correct for drift. Frankly, that has seldom been a issue on a well tuned saw... But I love the ability to incrementally move the fence.

As far as the comments regarding resawing for veneer.... Yes, I do that a lot, but the abilty to resaw also means you will send far far less wood up the planer chute.... If you need 1/2" or 1/4" stock.... No problem...resaw....
If you get a deal on some beautiful 6/4 stock...take it and resaw into 4/4 amd some 3/8. My point is that there is a lot more to resawing than just making veneer, and it can save you some serious change over time.. Then there is the ability to create your own bookmatched stock...or to saw your own birch crotches for that beautiful figure hiding under the skin....

I also do almost all my ripping on the bandsaw.... To me, it is a much better and safer alternative than the table saw...final trim might be a skim cut on the TS....

The bandsaw(s) are the most used power tool in my shop, and not an area to skimp on... Buy more than you think you need, and you won't look back...

Ps, I love the Laguna guides...and my sales and service support from Laguna has been top notch. I know others may have had issues, but I am a satisfied customer. MM will also be a great saw, but since I wanted the driftmaster and the ceramic guides, I went with the Laguna.

Roger

[John Coloccia]

I agree with Carl. If you are serious hobbyist then some of the Grizzly G0514 models will be all you'll need for anything but production resawing. THe G0514x2 is only about $1500. That still leaves you a few hundred for a very good G0555, which can be permanently chucked with a narrow blade.

Having owned both of these saws, I can vouch that they'll do all a hobbyist could want. The biggest headache for me is changing and retensioning blades. Not wanting to do that forces me sometimes to use a suboptimal blade for the task at hand - which will make all the other specs on yr saw moot.

This is precisely, exactly the setup I now have, BTW. It's really something to have one saw setup for resaw and straightline, and another just for cutting curves (I have a Carter Stabilizer on the 555). I wish I had done that years ago.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

The Inca machines group is a Yahoo group. Go to yahoo and search for it... Lots of machines changing hands lately

[Carl Beckett]

Joshua,

Are you familiar with the craiglist search tools like searchtempest and craigslist pro? They just go out and search craigslist for key words in a given radius.

Sadly, I still finding a lot of cabinet shops that have went bankrupt and are getting around to selling off the equipment. ( put me in the used camp, the only thing I haven't gotten used was my table saw).

8 weeks. So pick a saw, calculate shipping lead time, and then look used up until the deadline hits.

[Joshua Davis]

Carl - thanks for the search tips. I did not know about those specific search tools. That will be helpful. I have been going to individual craigslist sites by city and it is time consuming and I find that I don't do it consistently and then the good deals go quicky. I will check into your suggestions.

[Joseph Tarantino]

Joseph - I was kind of surprised to see JET's poor recent history in the bandsaw arena. I wanted to like one since they are the most accessible anywhere you go (I can even go buy one in town!), it just seems when you can't get the basics right, like reasonable spine stiffness, it makes you wonder what else they got wrong. I DO have a PM planer and a PM table saw in my shop that I love and wouldn't trade. The PM bandsaws are intrigueing, but with the price you would think that THEY were the Italian saws in vs the MM, Laguna and Agg's. They don't seem to have the enthusiastic following you see for PM tablesaws and planers as near as I can tell. Why is this? They LOOK legit? Do they do the little things poorly?

i find that jet and powermatic don't deliver incremental value for the premium prices they try to get. and i also find their technical (not customer) support to be just so very much less than average that i believe more can be gotten for less $ by looking elsewhere. or buy truly above average machines that cost, such as minimax BSs. WMH tool group, owner of the jet and PM brands are, IMHO, merely trading on the past reputations of their brands.

[Scot wolf]

You can also do RSS feeds from craigslist as well. Go to the tools ad section every city you want to search then click the RSS icon (very lower right hand corner). When someone posts a bandsaw (or whatever your looking for) on there, craigslist will send you a Email. I get Email on my phone, and it's always beeping at me.


Not to gloat,but here's one I found using RSS feed. 21" Grizz in near new condition with a TON of blades and a moblie base. Most of the blades were new Timberwolf. It was about 10 miles from my house. He was asking $900 for it, then He offered to sell it for $800 before I even asked him about price. I couldn't get the $100 bills out fast enough.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_57082.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_57101.JPG

[Joshua Davis]

Scot - that Griz is an AWESOME find! I have the sister 531 model on my potential shopping list. Thanks for the RSS feed tip from CL ... will check it out.

[Mike Heidrick]

Scott, that was an awesome find. Deals like that are how shops become cold storage for tools!

[Scot wolf]

Thanks, I'm always on the prowl for equipment. I was in Lowes 3 or 4 years ago and they had 3 Jet contractors saws in the boxes....never opened up in the front by the contractors desk. They had them marked down to $250. I asked for the manager and asked him if he would be able to do $150 each if I bought all 3. He said if I could take them right then he would do that. They forked the pallet full right on my truck. I can't remember for sure what I sold 2 of them for, but I think it was like $300 each. I kept one and it's been a great saw. I guess I have another WW related hobby. Sorry for the hijack.......


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMGP6453.JPG

[Mike Cutler]

Joshua

I also am in the two, or more, camp.
On your list the MM20 is the one I'd go for if you only want one bandsaw, or don't have enough room for two of them. If you're willing to go $2-$4K for a bandsaw(s), you should be just fine.
I have two bandsaws. A Rikon 340 and a JET 14". I can tell you for certain that having a dedicated resaw bandsaw, for me the Rikon with a 1" Lennox 2/3 varipitch Tri-Master, should be seriously considered. I set that saw up a few years ago and all I have to do is put tension to the blade, check the tracking and go.
The Jet is a standard 14" with a riser. It just does what it's supposed to do.
Seriously consider two. The footprint of a bandsaw isn't that large.

[Van Huskey]

First you can really go wrong with any of the big 4 Euro saws (Laguna, Felder, Agazzani or Minimax) my love of MM is centered around the fact that in operation they are very similar and all very good. The MM saws just have the added benefit of the triple boxed frame and saw for saw seem to be able to have the stringest spines, this being a importance when it comes to resawing. My favorite saw in the MM line is the MM24, the smallest of their big saws and thus the smallest to have the "big" table, my MM20 is a result of what I found used at a very good bargain. If I had bought new I probably would have gotten a MM24 but the MM20 is really as much or more saw than I need. As you note I am really a fan of the Agazzani B-24, although it is a "traditional" bandsaw with 16 3/4" of resaw that will cover most peoples needs and is a "bargain" for a larger wheeled saw, the other best buy is the Felder FB600 WHEN it is on sale. In the end I am partial the the Centauro built MM saws but I feel like it is a position founded in fact not just supporting my buying decision.

Let us know where you live, good deals come up often and I search bandsaws nationwide several times a week. You might consider becoming a contributor, deals for bandsaws often get posted in the deals and discounts forum.

As for a second saw the Laguna LT14SUV is not a bad choice for a lot of reasons BUT one of the attributes I like in a second saw is the table up higher. I find a higher table much more comfortable making countour cuts or small straight cuts like dovetails up higher. Now they take up some room so they are not for everyone and I also feel like I am trying to sell "my" choices but I am a fan of a 20" US built welded steel saw like the Powermatic PM81 or the Delta 28-350 (or later Delta/Rockwell saws). There are a lot of them on the used market and they have decent sized tables pretty high off the floor. That said I think the second saw should be dictated by the deal you find near you and there are a ton of options. The attributes I look for in a second saw are higher table, decent sized table, crowned wheels (for easy tracking of small blades) and block guides for most blades with a Carter Stabilizer for very narrow blade for tight contours.

In the end there are literally 1,000s of combinations for a two saw shop, my approach is find the best big saw you can then choose the best deal/saw you can find to compliment your bigger saw.

[John Coloccia]

You can also do RSS feeds from craigslist as well. Go to the tools ad section every city you want to search then click the RSS icon (very lower right hand corner). When someone posts a bandsaw (or whatever your looking for) on there, craigslist will send you a Email. I get Email on my phone, and it's always beeping at me.


Not to gloat,but here's one I found using RSS feed. 21" Grizz in near new condition with a TON of blades and a moblie base. Most of the blades were new Timberwolf. It was about 10 miles from my house. He was asking $900 for it, then He offered to sell it for $800 before I even asked him about price. I couldn't get the $100 bills out fast enough.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_57082.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_57101.JPG


Thanks, I'm always on the prowl for equipment. I was in Lowes 3 or 4 years ago and they had 3 Jet contractors saws in the boxes....never opened up in the front by the contractors desk. They had them marked down to $250. I asked for the manager and asked him if he would be able to do $150 each if I bought all 3. He said if I could take them right then he would do that. They forked the pallet full right on my truck. I can't remember for sure what I sold 2 of them for, but I think it was like $300 each. I kept one and it's been a great saw. I guess I have another WW related hobby. Sorry for the hijack.......


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You suck. I mean, you don't just suck, but you suck beyond words. If I think of all the suck I've seen this year, and add it all together, you suck more than all of it.

And one more thing...

YOU SUCK

[Joshua Davis]

Van - can you tell me how much is lost from cut width on your MM-20 when the Driftmaster is installed? Do you think the rail on the Driftmaster is long enough to be used on the B-24?

[Van Huskey]

Van - can you tell me how much is lost from cut width on your MM-20 when the Driftmaster is installed? Do you think the rail on the Driftmaster is long enough to be used on the B-24?


Ahhh, it becoming clear you are doing your homework! I have a DM on my LT18 in my shop in SC but I have not fully decided if I am getting a DM for my MM20 for my LA shop until I decide what I am going to do about a feeder which won't be until I get my new shop built so I can't go and measure for you. BUT the DM will move almost back to the spine of a 20" saw. Mike has taken off his DM to put on his feeder but he may remember the width it gives you but my guess is ~17 inches. The DM is a wide fence and takes up some room itself and I think the lateral movement is right at 17", so on a 24" saw it will probably not give any more width than on a 20" saw. I remember Laguna had one on their LT-24 at IWF in 2010 and it left several inches to the left unusable. I don't really see this as an issue but I could also see where it might bug someone with a bigger than 20" saw.

[Joshua Davis]

Van

What does it take to be a "contributor"?

[Van Huskey]

Van

What does it take to be a "contributor"?

Look at the row of tabs at the top of the page, click on the yellow/gold "Donate" button, $6 a year. One of the perks is the deals and discounts forum and classifieds forum.

Its cool if you don't want to say exactly where you live but a general area and I will keep a lookout for saws in your area, chances are you will find a 2nd saw before you find a big Italian or equal but one never knows.

[Joshua Davis]

Van - I updated my profile for location and tried to donate to SMC but got Credit Card errors when I tried to use the nonpaypal option. I know my credit cards work online because we use them way to often ... LOL! I left a message on the tech/support forum to see if maybe the third party transaction handler (Northwind Associates?) is maybe having some transaction processing issues.

[Van Huskey]

Van - I updated my profile for location and tried to donate to SMC but got Credit Card errors when I tried to use the nonpaypal option. I know my credit cards work online because we use them way to often ... LOL! I left a message on the tech/support forum to see if maybe the third party transaction handler (Northwind Associates?) is maybe having some transaction processing issues.

Actually, Northwind is the company that "owns" the site.

There is a good bit of machinery "around" you how quickly you find something will depend on how far you are willing to drive, but that is true for everyone.

Just for reference there is a 32" Northfield about 350 miles from you for $1500 about a dollar a pound. But it may be more saw than you can deal with, I just remember it from my searches earlier today.

[Curt Harms]

Actually, Northwind is the company that "owns" the site.

There is a good bit of machinery "around" you how quickly you find something will depend on how far you are willing to drive, but that is true for everyone.

Just for reference there is a 32" Northfield about 350 miles from you for $1500 about a dollar a pound. But it may be more saw than you can deal with, I just remember it from my searches earlier today.

With that saw, would you have to budget for a link belt to help with vibration?







:D :D

[Gary Herrmann]

There is a 32" Northfield BS on the STL CL tools list...


Gary, wanting to have 2 bandsaws, but could never get that monster down the stairs to my shop.

[Van Huskey]

There is a 32" Northfield BS on the STL CL tools list...


Gary, wanting to have 2 bandsaws, but could never get that monster down the stairs to my shop.

Thats the one I was referencing!! Someone needs to grab it!

@Curt, you don't need a budget for the link belt, its direct drive... even less vibration! :D

[Van Huskey]

]

Perfect second saw in my mind...one similar to it is my second saw, mine is a wood only 28-350. It "only" has 13" of resaw under the guides, 12" under the guard. The thing I really like about that saw it is the tall table, bad for resawing great for all the other cuts. That is a metal cutting saw (works fine for wood) so it is priced above the normal 28-350 wood only saw AND it adds a lot of needless complexity IF it is only used for wood. I think a good price for a 28-350 is about 600-700 but a lot of them get priced higher and they are an excellent saw. I haven't seen one of those with Walker-Turner on it but it could have been made in the W-T plant after Rockwell bought them.

[Ronald Blue]

I wondered about the metal cutting ability when it said it had a air pump because I knew that was standard on most metal cutting saws. However the 4500 fpm made me think it was for wood. While I know it's best to not cut metal if the need were ever there it's not a bad thing. He can grab the blade welder too and make his own. Blade welders are common with metal cutting saws in my experience. He will need a vfd but that's not the obstacle it once was.

[Van Huskey]

I am not usually a proponent of blade welders for woodworkers, they take a while to train yourself to make a good weld and metal works break bands at least 10-1 over woodworkers, plus you have to delevop the skill of matching the teeth and grinding the weld. The difference in price between coil stock and properly welded blades would take a LONG time to recoup woodcutting and you often end up with short unusable stock at the end of a roll. If it was attached to the saw and "free" it might be a different story.

[Kirk Poore]

Kirk - What table height range do you like and why? How tall are you?

OK, I measured my tables. The 30" saw has a 36" table height, the PM 140 has a 44" table height, and the Jet has a 46" table height (inc wheels). For me, the 36" height is most comfortable. I much prefer looking down on the work than looking at it sideways.

Kirk

[Joshua Davis]

I've got alot to think about. The two saw approach kind opens up alot of possibilities and considerations. I have been reading alot of reviews and bandsaw "problem solving" here and elsewhere, and as a novice, am learning a bit about bandsaws.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joshua,

I'd recommend a book that I have and use as a bandsaw guide. Mark Duginske's book "The New Complete Guide to The Bandsaw". It's my goto book, it's well illustrated, well written and a wealth of information. It's currently listed at $13.56 at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Complete-Guide-Band/dp/1565233182/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341803084&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=MarkDuginske

[Van Huskey]

Regarding table height my Italians are right at 35" (a tad under actually), my 20" Delta and PM 141 are all right at 42". I find the lower height is great for resawing since tall pieces don't tower over you and you don't have to lift them as high if they are heavy. Ripping is nice at that height as well since it is roughly table saw height. For me intricate work and countours in general are best at about the 40-42" height since I don't have to bend and it keeps the lines closer and thus easier to follow. I am about a kerf width shy of 6'.

I would second Ken's recommendation of Duginski's book, though I don't agree with him on ever count it is the best presented of any of the BS books. He also has an excellent DVD if you are a more visual learner, I would offer to send you my copy but I did that and it never came back, so I don't have it to loan any more. :mad:

[Joshua Davis]

Joshua,

I'd recommend a book that I have and use as a bandsaw guide. Mark Duginske's book "The New Complete Guide to The Bandsaw". It's my goto book, it's well illustrated, well written and a wealth of information. It's currently listed at $13.56 at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Complete-Guide-Band/dp/1565233182/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341803084&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=MarkDuginske

Ken - Funny you should mention this book ... I have actually had it in my Amazon shopping car for almost a week now. I know Duginske is pretty reknown for his bandsaw knowledge. I guess I was only picking it up for reference for after I bought a bandsaw, but now that you bring it up maybe it would be of good value getting it beforehand.

[Carl Beckett]

Regarding table height my Italians are right at 35" (a tad under actually), my 20" Delta and PM 141 are all right at 42". I find the lower height is great for resawing since tall pieces don't tower over you and you don't have to lift them as high if they are heavy. Ripping is nice at that height as well since it is roughly table saw height. For me intricate work and countours in general are best at about the 40-42" height since I don't have to bend and it keeps the lines closer and thus easier to follow. I am about a kerf width shy of 6'.



This is exactly my experience - for smaller work I VERY much prefer a higher table. Its compounded by the fact that I am getting old and my eyesight is changing. Keeping my eyes closer to work at hand is critical, and having the higher table means Im not hunched over all the time. (and I can take my eyeglasses off, and wear safety glasses and still see - vs juggling both eyeglasses and safety glasses at the same time for the farther setups, which I will admit sometimes ends up being eyeglasses only which isnt as good of protection)

[Joshua Davis]

Van

That looks like 2 votes for the Duginski book. I actually emailed him last week and asked him if he still liked his 20" Aggi. And, of course he did. He has 13 or 14 years on it. I also asked him if he was going to be teaching any of his classes this fall and winter and he said he was putting together a schedule as we speak. He is quite a ways north of me but still pretty driveable at 6 hours or so if I remember correctly.

I've written down the 28-350 to keep an eye out for - sounds like it fits the bill for a good second saw.

I have a couple of Big Machine questions for you, or anyone else that might know. Why do the big PM's have limited re-saw? If I remember correctly the 20" is around 900 pounds but only has 12-13" of resaw. They are beautifully massive with large tables, but I just don't understand the re-saw limitations. Different market/application?'

Second question - what does it cost to convert a 3 phase machine to single phase? Is this generally a good or bad ideas, ie - is there lost performance or shortened motor life, etc? I probably need to be careful I suppose on wear and tear from some of the online used machine brokers.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joshua.....there is even a section on what to look for in a bandsaw ....when you are in the buying mode...new and used.... Duginske's book really is a good reference.

[Rod Sheridan]

Josh, to convert from single to three phase for a bandsaw I would add a VFD to the machine.

The use of a VFD can cause shortened motor life unless it's inverter rated, however it will probably still be longer than a single phase motor........Rod.

[Joshua Davis]

Joshua.....there is even a section on what to look for in a bandsaw ....when you are in the buying mode...new and used.... Duginske's book really is a good reference.

Ken

The book is bought. Be here on Wednesday. Amazon Prime Rocks. It is convenient. Almost TOO convenient! :D

Josh

[Van Huskey]

Van

That looks like 2 votes for the Duginski book. I actually emailed him last week and asked him if he still liked his 20" Aggi. And, of course he did. He has 13 or 14 years on it. I also asked him if he was going to be teaching any of his classes this fall and winter and he said he was putting together a schedule as we speak. He is quite a ways north of me but still pretty driveable at 6 hours or so if I remember correctly.

I've written down the 28-350 to keep an eye out for - sounds like it fits the bill for a good second saw.

I have a couple of Big Machine questions for you, or anyone else that might know. Why do the big PM's have limited re-saw? If I remember correctly the 20" is around 900 pounds but only has 12-13" of resaw. They are beautifully massive with large tables, but I just don't understand the re-saw limitations. Different market/application?'

Second question - what does it cost to convert a 3 phase machine to single phase? Is this generally a good or bad ideas, ie - is there lost performance or shortened motor life, etc? I probably need to be careful I suppose on wear and tear from some of the online used machine brokers.

One before I forget it Prime is indeed almost too convenient!

Second, I am not saying don't take Dugiunski's class but the one class on bandsaws I REALLY want to take is Sam Blasco's, he takes a very modern approach to machines, a very Eurocentric one as well. The only negative is you will leave wanting/planning to spend money!

Third, regarding resaw. Tall resaw heights vs wheel size is a relatively new phenomenon, started in part by Torben at Laguna. The PM 81 that you are talking about was the direct competitor to the Delta 20" (28-350 and succesors). These are welded steel saws designed primarily with schools and small cabinet shops in mind. They were designed to be cost effective compared to the larger and heavier cast iron saws of the day. During that day and age a "traditional" bandsaw with 20" wheels would have 12-13" of resaw, a 24" bandsaw more like 16-17" and so on. Tall resaw heights were just not in vouge. The PM81 is arguably a better saws than the Delta but the difference is the Delta tends to sell for cheaper, since it has the same basic capabilities and if using it for a second saw you will never need that last few percent of "better built" the Delta makes more sense. I have a 28-350 in one shop and a PM81 in the other as a second saw, I bought what I found a deal on at the time and although I am generally a PM fan the Delta is a much more visually appealing saw to me as it still has remnants of the Art Deco machine era in it. To me they are basically interchangable.

Last re 3ph. When considering 3ph machines I think one has to step back and take a holistic approach and determine (guess) longterm am I going to have 1-2 3ph machines or am I going to end up with a shop full. If it is the former and they are each 3hp or under VFD is the way to go, if you are going to have several 3ph machines and/or one or more will be 3hp or more you should probably look at an RPC. For more in depth 3ph talk consider spending some time on the 3ph forum on Practical Machinist, though there is a decent amount on here. For up to a 3hp motor a basic VFD can be had for under $200, it will also allow you to adjust the speed of the motor, have soft start, motor braking, reversing etc. Some useful and some like reversing are useless on a bandsaw but very useful on other machines. Above 3hp it is usually economically prudent to consider a RPC which you can build or buy and run any size motor you will find in a hobby shop. Ron mentions motor damage to non-inverter rated motors when using VFD in general the anecdotal and even quasi science says it is a non-issue in a most hobby shop applications BUT Ron is coming from a engineering background specifically with motors, this is a case where the "factory floor" tends to disagree with the engineers though the engineers are actually correct.

The issue with non-inverter rated motors revolves around whether their insulation can handle being used with a VFD. There are really two issues to consider first raw heat and second errant high voltage spikes, don't expect me to explain the genesis and effect of the latter! On the heat issue since many people control the speed of their motors via VFD and thus run them below synchronos speed AND our induction motors get their cooling from a fan that runs at shaft speed when you slow them down you reduce cooling. So one has to consider the duty cycle and the quality of the wiring insulation when running motors under about 80% synchronos speed for any length of time, a non-issue with a wood cutting bandsaw. The second is the voltage spikes, first you can use line/load reactors to prevent this but without them it may or may not be an issue. The reality is the failure rate in practice seems to be very low again for motors used in a hobby setting. The more you know about the specific motor and your intended use for it the better "bet" you can make as to its long term viability.

[Mike Wilkins]

Another vote for the multiple saw arrangement. I have had a Laguna LT18 since 2001 and love it. I currently have a Resaw King blade on it, but also use steel blades as well in the 1" range. My 2nd machine is a Rikon benchtop 10" machine with a 3/8" blade. I also use 3/16" blades on this machine. Although the Laguna will take a 1/4" blade, the changeover routine is tedious, so I leave the scrolly stuff to the little
guy. If you can swing it, a multiple machine setup will be a great addition to the shop inventory.

[Jim Matthews]

I read Michael Fortune's articles (http://www.furnituresociety.org/furn/docs/mfortuneBandsaw_Complete.pdf) on bandsaw setups, and he recommends the 14" Delta (and clones) for all shop activities.
I pursued a huge bandsaw in my initial fitting of my shop and find it's cumbersome. A smaller, capable saw has much to recommend.

I would say that if you start with your smaller, "second" saw and note the number of times you need higher clearance/more powerful motor/larger table space
you can determine if the saw is necessary. The fact that the Delta 14 and derivatives are readily available for cheap should not be overlooked.

The MM20 I purchased is so large it needs a dedicated space in my garage. A Delta 14 would fit next to my basement shop.

A word on the Inca saws - the two wheeler is excellent, the three wheeler is finicky. Neither will do more or less quality work than a Delta 14, and they take up nearly so much space on a shop floor or in your wallet.

[Joshua Davis]

I have seen a few delta 28- 203 models for sale. What is the rule on quality with the Delta's? Any particular models or just any USA made 14" in good shape. Gotta admit that the Laguna 14" SUV is awfully tempting as a "small" saw that might meet all needs for at least awhile, unless a big beasty presents itself at a great price.

[Jim Matthews]

The Laguna is well built. The resaw height is fixed, but probably exceeds a Delta 14 with riser block.

If you have someone that can help you resaw really large boards, it will do most everything you need, and not take up too much space.
As has been said elsewhere, a cheapo machine with an excellent blade will perfom better than an expensive machine with a dull blade.

I would only consider a used machine that is ready to go - no tune up required.
With a new machine, you've got fresh bearings and perfect tires.

There's a lot to recommend that approach.

FWIW - I think mobility kits are the first accessory to purchase.