A question of proportion and design (Regan esk)

[Ron Bontz]

Well it seemed like a good idea at the time. The mock up looked good to me. But there is something about this I don't like. It's not quite finished, but I am spending my time staring at it. It just stares back. Maybe a little too much extension in the heel. Maybe the top portion of the toe should have been a little shorter. I am open to thoughts, C&C. 18-3/4"plate with an 18" toothline and 4.5" under spine. Thanks in advance

[James Owen]

In the realm of proportions, the saw looks quite a bit too high for the length.
A reduction an inch or two of height (you'd have to experiment to get the "right-looking" amount of reduction) would help make the saw look "properly" proportioned.
The shape of the front extension contributes to the off-proportion look. If it were a straight 90˚ angle, it would probably look better proportioned.
The heel extension also looks a bit off, but reducing the height may change that. A little more curvature on the back end toward the tooth line might also make it look better proportioned.
I would make a cardboard mock up, and play with the proportions before actually doing anything to the saw blade....

Despite your dissatisfactions with the proportions, it is a very nice looking saw from the craftsmanship end of it!! Really nice job on the handle!

[Rick Fisher]

I agree that its a bit tall but its a fine looking saw .. Very nice handle.. you should be very proud ..

I would probably put it in a frame and hang it on my shop wall.. lol

[jamie shard]

No, not too tall. The curve on the front end too closely mirrors the general shape of the back so the overall look is too symmetrical. I would keep the same general shape at the front but compress it so the convex/concave curve is about half as wide. That will make it look more like the flat front end of a backsaw, yet keep the idea.

You could also play with the shape of the bottom convex shape. I think the fact that the curve returns backward at the bottom is a little confusing. I would angle the convex shape a little forward, so that the teeth line is the leading edge. (does that make sense? Basically, I'm saying that my eye goes to the "tumblehome" part of the lower front end of the saw and it seems strange. A working saw should lead with it's teeth, not a section higher up.) This way, the overall design feature will not change as the saw gets sharpened over the next 60 years! When I look at it now, I see a saw that is short, will grow longer, then grow short again as the saw is sharpened. If the entire front of the toe was done on an angle (same curves, but the centerline or "stress" of the curves angled more backwards, so the whole front of the saw has a slight angled feel), then the saw would grow gradually shorter over the time.

I think it's great that you are playing around with the design of the toe. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Thanks for letting us geek out on design ideas!

[george wilson]

I agree with James: The saw is too tall. I also agree that the front edge of the saw would be better left straight. It should not curve back on the tooth line. It will eventually look strange as the saw is sharpened as said,though not in your lifetime.

I'd also round off the handle a bit more more where the hand grips it inside and on the back. And,leave out the big groove across the top of the handle. I think the groove is messing up the looks of the handle.

The shape of the handle is fine,just needs refining a bit . Really not a bad effort at all,just needs tweaking.

[John Coloccia]

The other day I asked some technical question of my guitar sensei about a problem I had with one of my guitars. He sort of chuckled and said, "The cardinal rule is it doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to not look goofy!". The extension on the front of the plate looks goofy. Like everyone else has said, if you just straighten that out, I think the whole saw will take on a completely different, and well proportioned, look. I would straighten it out in the back, too. It does seem very tall, but I wouldn't touch that until getting the basic lines worked out. It may end up OK :)

[Carl Beckett]

And another consideration, is that the height could affect functionality. (shorter might be more stable/stiffer, but taller might allow deeper cuts) - so dont lose sight of your functional goals for aesthetics.

Already a beautiful saw!

[Ron Bontz]

Hmm. OK. All points well taken. Especially on the toe. Back to cutting and grinding today. With the handle let in, I was hoping it would have a leveling effect toward the heel while cutting. What's that old saying? Looked good on paper? Thank you. http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowsmile.gif

[Correy Smith]

Seems you will be doing some large work! 4.5" is well long enough for most any entry door joinery but quite cumbersome for furniture work. Seems the saw will be task specific. If I were cutting 2~3" tennons all day I might want a narrower plate for comfort. I use pull saws and the width of the blades can be quite wide 5" on a 11" long blade. Which is a minimum for larger door tenon work. Is the blade let in to the handle a common design on western saws? What are you intentions for use? 4.5" is not too wide if it is for deep cutting right? Nice effort thus far regardless. How are you cutting the blade without burning? I would vote I might like a square toe and heel. But I like tools that are plain,simple, and effective. What tooth pattern are you using?
Jamie, nice crit.

[george wilson]

I think a saw with a very deep blade might be difficult to cut accurately with. Pretty top heavy.

[Kenneth Speed]

I guess the proof is in the pudding; we should be asking how the saw cuts. I just looked and the depth of blade on the 16" LN tenon saw that everyone seems to rave about is almost as deep.

Ron is already changing the blade configuration so there isn't much point in belaboring the issue. I think the visual problem is in the toe, I don't like the mirror image curve. I think it looks too mechanical but that's my opinion. The item we're discussing is a saw and in the final analysis the arbiter is and should be how the saw cuts.

Ken

[Ron Bontz]

Well I did some work on this little experiment. This is 10 ppi rip with 0 degrees rake and about 5 degrees slope, btw. Very aggressive for the piece of pine I was cutting into. As far as accuracy it does fine. I went straight down my mark. I decided the ogee on the toe is what was giving me the most grief. I snipped off some of the toe and heel. Rounded the heel to go more with the curve in the handle. I am still not happy with the toe but to fix it would require dropping down the spine about 1/2" I think.

[Larry McGarrah]

What is the purpose of extending the heel under the tote? Do you actual cut that far under the tote? While it looks beautiful I fail to see the functionality.

[Joe Bailey]

1) curvature of blade under handle needs to more closely mimic arc of handgrip
2) classic halfback design usually features taper toward toe
see my hastily rendered Photoshop treatment below

BEFORE
235825

AFTER
235780

[Jack Curtis]

I think the curve under the tote is as threatening as it is weird, the way it seems to be heading for the user's hand. If that curve were flipped, you'd get some symmetry and remove the threat.

[Ron Bontz]

Just a couple of thoughts.
I agree a thinner plate would cut easier. I originally had planned on using a 0.025 plate then realized I was out of brass back slotted for 0.025. Hence the thicker plate. I had also planned on a cross cut. It was easier and quicker for me to file it rip. I am still learning to file properly. This also made it easier for me to compare two different hang angles on these last two saws I fumbled together. Even the finish on the handles is different. One is "True Oil" the other is Deft Wood Finish. The Deft was faster, but probably less durable.
As far as functionality: I have always been one of those power tool guys that was all about the function of a tool. (Pre hand tool days) The plate under the handle does get used for about the first 3 inches. Part of the extension was aesthetics as well. I am one of those guys that will not use a tool if it does not feel right in my hand. I also think a tool should have a certain visual appeal. George Wilson, Klaus and Pedder, Ron Breese, Konrad, Etc. are excellent examples of blending functionality with beauty. I think a hand tool should beg you to pick it up and feel the functionality and craftsmanship. Make sense? Unfortunately I lack the skill set the above mentioned have. SO I just putter along, trying different things, and trying to be just a little different.
Lastly I do appreciate the comments (C&C) What would we do without the internet? Thank you.

[Russ Webb]

I think you've done a great job on the saws and it's great that you are experimenting to find what works for you and willing to seek and accept constructive criticism and suggestions from others. That takes guts. We all have our opinions about aesthetics and what "works" for us. You are in the process of trying out what works for you and what you enjoy. And, you have the courage to put your work out there for others to contemplate and criticize in order to gain insight and suggestions from others.

It is, indeed, wonderful that we have the opportunity to learn from people, literally all over the world. It is a source of constant amazement to me that I can learn from others in Germany, Great Britain, Australia, around the world, and all over the US from here in Alaska. I have learned more about woodworking, tool use, and tool making in the last 5 years (of retirement) than I learned in the previous 40. The internet and these types of forums are a wonderful source of information and enlightenment. I am constantly amazed at the generosity of people willing to share their knowledge, experience, and expertise with the world AND do it for nothing but the satisfaction for having helped others.

And, thanks to Ron for making brass backs available to those of us who are novice saw makers - making them only for our own use and satisfaction.

[Karl Andersson]

Ron,
It looks like a great-functioning saw, but I know what you mean about wanting it to be pleasing to the eye. For purly aesthetic reasons, you may now want to try rounding off the top of the vertical section of the toe and then relaxing the curve to the spine (which would require you to shorten the spine up to an inch, I think). Here's a quick-and dirty mock-up:

235832
I believe part of the "not-quite-right" look is the appearance of long flats at the toe and then again from the "old" curve up to the spine - compared to the heel and the curved look you started with, these straight areas tend to make the plate look like it grew after assembly. starting the line from the spine down with an immediate soft curve seems to help make the lines flow...

You've done excellent work with your saws, I hope you don't mind some additional suggestions
Karl

[Ron Bontz]

Thanks Karl. I do like yours better. Shortening the long flat vertical is what I decided to do while waiting for more brass backs. What did you use as a graphics program for your mock up?

[Karl Andersson]

Oh, the most advanced graphics program ever (Not!) - Windows "Paint" - if you have Windows, it is under "Accessories". Just free-handed it with the paint brush tool and used the dropper to grab a background color.

[Correy Smith]

But Ken,, do you own just one saw? I completely agree the if the saw cuts good, good. But I do not use the same saw I cut entry door tenons as I would cabinet size tenons. It is just two completely types of work. I used to only use one or two general size saws. Then started owning a few more and the more task specific the saw became the higher the quality of cut I was getting when I had the right saw for the job.

[Correy Smith]

Ron , this is a great thread and appreciate your willingness to show pics of your build. I know absolutely nothing about western style back saws, can you indulge me a bit? What kinda of steel plates are you using? Do you flatten them if they come a bit out of flat?
Spines, are they dead straight when you get them or do you need to work it a bit? What is the RC and the carbon content of the steel? What are you using to set?
Keep up the good work,Correy

[Ron Bontz]

Corey, This is your standard 1095 blued spring steel. The stuff I have started to use comes flat. RC 48-51. Pretty standard. I am now punching my own plates.The brass backs are cut to approx. length, straightened by the machinist, and checked for thickness, prior to slotting. So far we have seen a variance of around 0.003" in thickness. The machinist adjust for this to keep it pretty much centered. We talked about setting up a jig for doing, say 4-6ft pieces. But it becomes more difficult to control quality. so for now we have a 20 inch limit. It is close enough with a snug fit that I have to tap it on or off with a dead blow mallet and a wooden dowel. As far as set, I am using a 42x. I am still learning to sharpen properly, but start low and add until it seems to saw without too much friction/heat. My bigger saws I just finished wound up with 0.005 set per side. I am still experimenting. But I do like the feel of the Regan handles. When my 0.025 slotted backs arrive I'll finish my Regan type saw, (cross cut), with the 0.025 plate.4" under spine. The down side to all this is these saws are all for me. So I'll have to live with my mess ups. It is a heck of a way to learn, but at least I am learning something, however little. Thanks.

[george wilson]

I think the curve under the tote looks good. I don't find it threatening,but of course,I'm long used to using dangerous machines of many kinds.

Ron,I think you are learning a lot,and off to a very great start.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Just because I'm slow - what's a Regan, or a Regan-esque saw? Is Regan a type of saw? A boutique maker, a vintage brand, something else? Google isn't helping me.

[Ron Bontz]

Regan patent design refers to the handle shape. Fitted more to the hand with recesses for the thumb and index finger. Also the handle is left or right hand specific as well as size. You will notice the hang angle is different as well. See pic. above of the two saws together. Hope this helps.

[Brian Ashton]

I wouldn't say the design is bad. It reminds me of a 1930 - 50s cab over truck. It may not be elegant but it's certainly practical. I like it.

[Correy Smith]

Ron, I think your on the right track. Experimenting is the only way to dial it in. Saws can be very species and task specific. I would not use the same saw on hardwoods as I would on cedar or pine. Different set and tooth style entirely. Wet wood, kiln dried, different saws. I see many more saws in your till^^^^. So who out there is the revered modern American saw maker these days, Lie Nielsen?

[Kenneth Speed]

Correy asked, "But Ken,, do you own just one saw? I completely agree the if the saw cuts good, good. But I do not use the same saw I cut entry door tenons as I would cabinet size tenons. It is just two completely types of work. I used to only use one or two general size saws. Then started owning a few more and the more task specific the saw became the higher the quality of cut I was getting when I had the right saw for the job."

Honestly, I'm on the verge of being embarrassed at how many Western style back saws I own. My 16" LV rip tenon saw just arrived today! That puts my score at five backsaws.Way more than I need!

I didn't get the sense that the saw in question was supposed to be a do it all type of saw or even like the sash saw Gramercy makes. My point was that if it does what he wants it to do and does it well then his experiment is a win win event.

I like the tote and I like the workmanship he put into the saw. I'd change the nose of the blade to make it more graceful but my taste isn't everyone's taste and I got the impression the saw was sort of a prototype saw to try out some ideas. Extending the blade under the tote seems to me to be of somewhat questionable utility in a back saw,but if it works it works and I thought it made an attractive saw.


I think the maker should be applauded for his courage in trying something different.

[Austin Lange]

Regan patent design refers to the handle shape. Fitted more to the hand with recesses for the thumb and index finger. Also the handle is left or right hand specific as well as size. You will notice the hang angle is different as well. See pic. above of the two saws together. Hope this helps.

The hang angle of the Reagan saws is the same as all other Disston backsaw from the period. They sized the handle to the saw, with 35 degree for 12" and down and 25 degrees for 14" and up. You can tell the difference between them by the distance between the saw screws.

A 16" Reagan handle:
. 236250

A 14" Reagan Handle:
236251