Shaper question

[Greg Urwiller]

Just picked up a used Shop Fox W1702 shaper. Would have been better to ask before I bought it obviously, but now that I have it....anyone have one? Any tips, recommendations, or advice on this one? Yeah, I know, don't cut my fingers off! Thanks. Greg

[Mike Heidrick]

I have the G1026 similar Grizzly. Currently changing out my fence to a Delta 43-812x. There are a couple cool shaper books - The Shaper Book and the shaper handbook. Best thing is to just practice with it IMO.

[Larry Edgerton]

Buy a power feed.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Watch your hands. Always include some mechanism in your set ups to protect your fingers in the event something goes wrong. A shaper is very versatile, but it requires a lot of input from the operator in terms of making fences, jigs, guides, etc. Biggest danger IMO? You are feeding, you have a hand on the outfeed side, the shaper hits something it doesn't like, or a piece of the wood breaks off, gets loose, binds up, you get a kick back. Problem, it happens way faster than you can react, so your left hand follows the boards path backwards into the cutter. Best way to avoid this? Like Larry said, power feeder. Look Ma, no hands......for curved work a proper jig with lead ins that hit the bearing before the workpiece and a handle of sorts to keep your hands well away from the cutter.

I was reading the operations manual for my minimax shaper for some reason last night, and there is a statement in there I hadn't noticed before, something like "In spite of all the safety features built into this machine potential danger still exists, and the best safety feature is in your hands!". Best way to learn is to have somebody show you, so if you can find anyone local that can lead you through a few basic set ups, that can help. When you learned to drive a car did you just jump in the seat and drive off alone the first time behind the wheel? A good book can be a road guide to avoid any major problems, but some times you understand what they were trying to explain only after doing it wrong. DAMHIK

[Rick Fisher]

+1 on the power feeder.. As a hobby woodworker, I wouldn't have a shaper without one.. I don't consider it worth the risks.. With a feeder however, very capable machine..

[Rod Sheridan]

The only modern shaper book I've seen is The Spindle Molder Handbook by Stephensen.

It's extremely good, with up to date safety, cutter and accessory information.

The other two books I have that are North American are literally decades behind the above book.

As others have indicated, a stock feeder is a great accessory for safety and performance.

I have a 40mm Euro cutter head that takes HSS knives, inexpensive, great performance in solid wood.

PM me and I'll send you a chart with feed speeds etc...........Regards, Rod.

[Seth Poorman]

+1 on the power feeder.. As a hobby woodworker, I wouldn't have a shaper without one.. I don't consider it worth the risks.. With a feeder however, very capable machine..
+1 Ive used a feeder for years and wouldnt have a shaper any other way.... Safety is the name of the game !!!

[Van Huskey]

Just curious, anyone here actually use a shaper without a feeder except when pattern shaping or the like, in other words does anyone actually hand feed a (real) shaper.

[Mike Heidrick]

Just curious, anyone here actually use a shaper without a feeder except when pattern shaping or the like, in other words does anyone actually hand feed a (real) shaper.



I do all the time and I own a feeder with both shapers. I honestly do not understand the input some folks have about them being the scariest tool they have ever used and they are not to be used without a feeder. I can only guess their experience is with terrible tools or tooling or incorrect setup. That or they are internet experts and have never used a shaper and only preach what others say. I definately want to know and understand how my shaper works/cuts a profile before I expect a mechanical machine (feeder) to move the wood through for me. I also feel more safe and comfortable on my laguna shaper than many router tables I have used so I am not personally scared of them at all. They are awesome machines.

[Van Huskey]

I do all the time and I own a feeder with both shapers. I honestly do not understand the input some folks have about them being the scariest tool they have ever used and they are not to be used without a feeder. I can only guess their experience is with terrible tools or tooling or incorrect setup. That or they are internet experts and have never used a shaper and only preach what others say. I definately want to know and understand how my shaper works/cuts a profile before I expect a mechanical machine (feeder) to move the wood through for me. I also feel more safe and comfortable on my laguna shaper than many router tables I have used so I am not personally scared of them at all. They are awesome machines.

That satisfies my curiosity! As you know I am not a "shaper guy". Lathes, shapers and CNC are my "final frontiers" I know i will get there, just don't know when I have the feeling when I actually contemplate CNC machines I will feel much like a lifelong handtool user buying his first stationary machine... I haven't gotten into turning yet since I honestly don't want to get sucked into the vortex and my flat work means too much to me.

[David Kumm]

I use my big shapers without feeders but unlike Mike, I prefer them if possible and think a person using shapers with little experience should have one. Consistent cut, biggest guard in front of the cutter, and no hands. You do have to learn to set them up correctly or they can cause scary issues rather than avoid them. Hand feeding does require wide enough stock to give you some room for safety and works best with mid length pieces. I still prefer the feeder when the big cutter is topside. Using the smallest table ring under the cutter is better than being lazy and having too big a hole under the spindle. Seems pretty basic until you forget and don't want to take the large cutter off to place it. Dumb move. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Did not want to give the impression I do not prefer them. I just don't think they are for every cut and I think you should know how to use your shaper without them. Always go with what is safest.

Hand shaping does not mean you have to have your hands close to the cutter either.

[Rick Potter]

I have a pair of 3/4" spindle Delta medium duty shapers. One is used pretty much as a router table, with router bits. The other is used basically for raised panels. I don't have a power feeder, but I do have a big assortment of push blocks, spinner discs, sleds and guards which I use regularly.

One advantage to the shaper over the router table is that it is possible to get different profiles by turning some shaper cutters over and reversing the motor, without moving the fence or height adjustment. IE: some cutters have a 1/2" roundover on one side, and a 3/4" on the other, etc.

Rick Potter

[Rick Fisher]

For me, its about that " tingly feeling " I get as I am about to do something. I have done hours of freehand shaping, had a kickback, had a door piece break while being cut.. I know its always user error.. Examine the piece of 1x3 for the hairline crack first, don't try to take off too much .. I suppose its always user error, but we still have thousands of woodworking accidents each year..

My problem with shapers is that the accidents they cause are pretty brutal .. I have a contractor associate who I do business with who lost 2 fingers to a shaper, they picked up most of the digits with a spoon and mop .. It was his fault.. no question...

I just think as a hobby woodworker with all 10 .. Why ?

Now Mike.. Having said all that .. if I had a big Euro shaper :) with a sliding table .. I could see doing tenon type work without a feeder.. lol Running 1x3 pieces which are 15" long through a 3hp shaper seems not worth it to me ..

[Mike Heidrick]

Its funny - the tenoning plate to do it safely costs as much as a full router table or used griz shaper so I hear ya. Thank goodness for steals.

[Larry Edgerton]

Sorry Mike but I have to disagree with you. A feeder in most cases should be bought with the shaper. I do small pieces and panels all the time without a feeder, making fixtures that keep it safe, and that is not what a feeder is for.

Like Rick said, wood is not perfect and hand feeding a piece that can be done with a feeder is just silly. One blowout can just mess up your whole day. When you are running several hundred feet of moulding it is hard to keep 100% concentration, which is what you need to do when you are hand feeding. Power feed is just safer, so if it can be used I use it. I would not have a shaper without a feeder and I suspect neither would you.

As far as learning how to run a shaper by asking a question on the internet, I agree with Peter. Go learn at least the basics from a pro in person even if you have to pay them for a couple of hours. Use common sense. Think about what forces are on the wood at all times and compensate for it. Figure out where your hands are going to go if there is a problem and if is toward the cutter, come up with a safer setup. Take the time to develop guards for different operations. If there is an uncut face on the part figure out how to get a continious fence for it to ride on. I use aluminium in many of my fixtures to bridge between the fences, or in some cases make one piece fences specially for specific cutters. If it does not feel right, don't do it.

But really, the setups for a shaper can be so varied that you will have to do some thinking for yourself. Get a book or books for starters, read and reread til it all makes sense, and think about what you are doing. If I have a day where I am preoccupied with other aspects of my job I will put off setups that are a bit risky and need 110% concentration until I can have a clear mind. Like most tools the shaper is not 100% safe, and it does require more forethought than most tools. Respect it.

Larry

[Jeff Duncan]

Lots of good replies here already. I run 3 shapers and as has been mentioned the types of work you can do are so varied a single book could never cover them all. However you have to start somewhere, and any good shaper book will give you a basic foundation.

Feeders are a necessity for most things someone starting out is likely to do....for instance sticking cuts, simple moldings, and so forth. Do you need a feeder for every cut...of course not. There are some cuts that you make on a shaper without a feeder, just as there are some cuts you make on a table saw without a fence. Once you get past basic woodworking and start doing more complicated projects, the setups can become more complicated also. Other times if your doing a small part, setting up a feeder just isn't practical. What it comes down to is knowledge and experience, the more you have the better able you are to make decisions and to know what is safe for you. There are things guys who have been using shapers for 30 years do that I wouldn't even try. There are things I do that I wouldn't let an employee do. Just like so many other aspects of using machinery, it comes down to what your knowledge and comfort level is.

Also as Larry said it's a good idea with all tools to know what forces are at play and what's going to happen if/when something goes wrong. You know where a piece of wood is going to go if the table saw kicks back right? That's why you never stand directly behind the work. Well when running the shaper know where a piece will go if it gets thrown....and don't stand there! A shaper can be a very intimidating tool, especially as you graduate into bigger and bigger cutters and motors. But with knowledge they can be fairly safe and are an amazingly flexible and versatile tool for the wood shop.

good luck,
jeffD

[Carl Beckett]

Also as Larry said it's a good idea with all tools to know what forces are at play and what's going to happen if/when something goes wrong.



Thing is, that figuring all this out isnt possible. There are still unexpected surprises.

A while back a guy posted a video here documenting kickback on a tablesaw. He thought he 'knew' what was going to happen (used push blocks stood to the side, etc) - and still ended up about 1/4" from losing fingers. Clearly he was wrong (things just dont always happen the same way each time).

Its not the stuff you know that gets you as often as the stuff you dont know, and we cant 'know' everything.

I appreciate the thread as someone that has contemplated a shaper. My take on the feedback here is that if you can use a feeder - do it. There may be cuts that have to be hand fed - but always better to use the feeder where possible.

As such, if I do get a shaper, I think I will budget the feeder as an integral part of the machine so that it is always there to use when possible.

[Rick Potter]

I think that some of the disagreement here is caused by the size of cuts people are using the shaper for. As a hobbiest, my cuts are not any different than what I could make on a router table. The only bit that is bigger is the cutter I have for raised panels, it's a bit bigger than my router bit for raised panels. Since I like the style of the router cutter, I usually use it, but in the shaper rather than the router table.

Sticking cuts and most edge treatments that I do are on the router table, but if I use the shaper, it is with the router bits, since I have them. Some edge treatments are done with shaper cutters, but they are not big bits hogging off a lot of wood.

On the other hand, some others of us may be doing full size walk in doors, or architectural moldings that are much bigger, and the power feeder is a natural for that. Anyone hogging off large cuts should have one, as well as any shop making large runs of molding.

It would be correct to say that as a hobbiest, I do not use the full capacity of my shaper, but it has been a valuable tool for the way I use it. So, I am as careful with the shaper as with the router table, using sleds, guards, hold downs etc, but most of my hobby work is for limited numbers of cuts before changing over to something different, so the feeder option would probably not work very well anyway. This is something we each have to evaluate for our own situation.

Rick Potter

PS: About the shaper coping sled. I got one from Delta years ago. All steel with clamps, rides in the miter slot or along fence, cost me about $80.

[Peter Quinn]

I do all the time and I own a feeder with both shapers. I honestly do not understand the input some folks have about them being the scariest tool they have ever used and they are not to be used without a feeder. I can only guess their experience is with terrible tools or tooling or incorrect setup. That or they are internet experts and have never used a shaper and only preach what others say. I definately want to know and understand how my shaper works/cuts a profile before I expect a mechanical machine (feeder) to move the wood through for me. I also feel more safe and comfortable on my laguna shaper than many router tables I have used so I am not personally scared of them at all. They are awesome machines.

I would elucidate one point Mike made which impacts safety a whole lot, and that is tooling. Modern euro tooling is all marked either MEC for mechanical feed only, or some symbol for hand feed. Yes, there is plenty of tooling that is not meant to be hand fed regardless of your set up. And some are built to accommodate hand feed safely. Some cuts can only be done by hand, but these are not IMPO the place to start a beginer. There is also plenty of older industrial American three wing tooling and some older euro stuff around without chip limitation built in that I for one would not hand feed. If you have never seen a shaper spinning a non limiting 3 wing hit a hard narly spot and blow up a piece of wood, then good for you, hope it never happens to you. If you don't know anyone with 30 years professional experience missing three fingers on one hand from a shaper accident, consider yourself blessed. I suppose a guy at home might have the luxary of only using pricey garniga stuff, and the luxary of culling his stock to sort out and funky parts. But if you are called to work with rustic grades and or have some of the older tooling which is serviceable but less safe, that feeder is your friend. I've yet to hear a single convincing argument for hand feed over power feed in all cases except stop cuts. I'm not an expert on the Internet or at work, but it's not my first rodeo either.

Google some of Chip Lindley's old posts to see some really good hand feed set ups. He had some cool photos of his stuff here on the creek, if you chose to hand feed its worth a look. I for one am far too lazy to bother setting up a proper hand feed when I can set up the power feed in seconds and achieve perfect repeatable safe results every time.

[Jeff Duncan]

Thing is, that figuring all this out isnt possible. There are still unexpected surprises.

A while back a guy posted a video here documenting kickback on a tablesaw. He thought he 'knew' what was going to happen (used push blocks stood to the side, etc) - and still ended up about 1/4" from losing fingers. Clearly he was wrong (things just dont always happen the same way each time).

Its not the stuff you know that gets you as often as the stuff you dont know, and we cant 'know' everything.


Carl, while there is a bit of truth to that point, (and I don't mean this to start an argument as I do think your point is very important).....that guy was a complete and total moron. He said so himself and he went and did something he knew was unsafe so that he could make a video??? He was trying to create a kickback and that's exactly what he did....he got the result he wanted, he just wasn't aware of what a kickback could do. In other words if he was using safe practices he would never have been in that situation. And that's the point....once you start up a machine that's spinning a cutting device of some sort at several thousand rpm's or more, regardless of the type of machine...you are at risk, even before there's any material involved! My point is to try and minimize that risk as much as possible. Knowing and thinking about the potential dangers helps minimize that risk. For example, when I feed material into the shaper I'll generally get it started then wait on the out feed side. Now something 'could' go wrong and throw something in that direction.....but the overwhelming odds are that if something goes it will be back and away from the direction of feed. Even with a feeder a knife could still break off and come shooting out and cause tremendous damage. So while I'm never perfectly safe, I do put myself in the safest practical position to work. Anyone who wants to be perfectly safe should not use woodworking machinery;)

Rick P, I think you may find the opposite if you started using a feeder....even on the router table. Not only is it very quick and easy for sticking cuts....but it will also improve the quality of your cut as well.

As I mentioned before, there is no "right" answer on every situation that requires a feeder or not. This applies to all woodworking IMHO....there's always multiple ways to skin a cat. There are many times I hand feed parts a few inches to see how a profile is going to look. Maybe make an adjustment and run a little more. Or run a piece in a foot or so if I'm using offset fences so I can line up the out feed fence with the part. Or if I'm running a 4' long piece of baseboard for a vanity like I did last Friday. Really not worth the time to setup a feeder to run 4' of stock. Plus a lot of curved work cannot be power fed, though as Peter mentioned this is not exactly shaper 101 and should be done only after one is more comfortable with using the machine. There are always going to be exceptions which your knowledge and experience have to dictate to you.

Last point is the aftermarket sleds that came up before. Now these are pretty poplar in general. I however would never consider spending money on such a thing. I have about 1/2 dozen shop made sleds for specific cuts, mostly coping or cross grain work, that I feel work better than anything I could buy, and take me very little time and scrap material to make. I think they are the best bet for anyone who needs a sled, but if someone wants an aftermarket one....thats's their choice and as long as it works for them it's all good. Just goes back to my believe that there are different ways for different people:)

good luck,
JeffD

[Greg Urwiller]

Thanks for all the replies! All very interesting and good information. When I started this thread, what I meant was, anyone have any tips or advice on "this particular model"? I just wondered if anyone had this shaper and would advise me to "upgrade this" or "this is something you want to watch on this model" and so on. But, it is nice to get the book lists and I think I'll look into one of them for reference. And, it is good advice about the power feeders. I always figured if I was going to go all out and get a decent shaper, and I hope this one is, then I'd get a power feeder also. In for a penny, in for a pound right?

It's been a LOT of years since I've been on a shaper...at least 40! (40th class reunion this weekend!) Reading various shaper threads over time, I have to kind of agree with Mike. It may have been 40+ years ago when I was around one, but I don't remember any kids ever getting hurt. And there were several screw ups that took wood shop back then, and I won't mention any names! While I had a healthy respect for the shaper, I never really was scared of it. But, I'm a lot older now, hopefully wiser, but also a lot slower in my reflexes compared to back then. So, I always figured a power feeder was a good idea. I got one big rabbit bit included and I figure I'll play with that Wed. when I'm off work. Thanks again. Greg

[Mike Heidrick]

All this shaper /feeder talk is getting expensive. Just found a couple Delta Comatic stands for my 1hp feeder refurbed while reading other shaper threads. Guess I will add one to the Griz shaper and have one for the TS or other tool. Maybe the 1/4hp griz will move to the RT. Not really fond of the small feeders personally. That may be against the grain here too LOL. I really like the bigger one - never tried a maggi steff though - they look amazing.

[Erik Loza]

...never tried a maggi steff though - they look amazing.

Steff's are pretty much the industry standard in pro shops. Every feeder you see being sold by one of the "high-end" machinery manufacturers is just a re-badged Steff. Feeders are pretty simple and the Steff is nothing fancy, just that they are super-sturdy and run forever, which is obviously important in a production environment. Never tried an Asian feeder firsthand, so can't comment on those. By the way, If anyone is interested in a (new, not used) Steff feeder and does not want to pay the "extra fees" associated with having them painted green, grey, or some such color, shoot me a PM. I do not sell feeders but can put you in touch with the direct importer for the US.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FormulaT1feedingpowerfeeder.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/Steff2033powerfeederonFormulaT1.jpg
http://i75[IMG]http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MM24withpowerfeeder1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MM24withpowerfeeder1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Samfeedingbandsaw2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/SamplestripsofLyptus.jpg

[David Kumm]

Now that Univer seems to be gone, Steff is the pick of the litter. Their machining is better so the clamps lock tight on the bars. Some of the smaller Steff parts are now sourced from Asia but to my knowledge the larger ones are still all Italian. The best Asian feeder is the horizontal mounted Comatic that is a step up. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

I just bought a comatic medium bandsaw feeder for my MM. Has dual metal wheels. All my feeders have been deals but all have been comatics, otherwise I would be all over that generous offer Erik and I will keep it in mind! Thank you for that.

Great looking Formula T1 BTW!

[Jeff Duncan]

Didn't know Univer had ceased to be:( That's too bad, but as a bottom feeder it won't affect my future purchase anyway;) Still think they make, (made), the best feeder out there as the design made flipping to feed against the fence a good deal easier than standard feeders.

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Didn't know Univer had ceased to be:( That's too bad, but as a bottom feeder it won't affect my future purchase anyway;) Still think they make, (made), the best feeder out there as the design made flipping to feed against the fence a good deal easier than standard feeders.

JeffD

I think you are talking about the horizontal motor model. I don't know the details, just know they are unavailable for the time being. Dave

[Mike Ruggeri]

I don't want to get into the "do or don't I need a feeder debate", but I will say that I like using a feeder for consistent results. Maybe it is my bad technique, but even on the router table I like using the feeder so that the stock continuously moves at a constant speed which I find improves the quality of my cuts - especially on long pieces where I have to move my hands during the cut if I wasn't using the feeder. I use my feeder on both my router table and shaper and find it works well on each.

[Van Huskey]

Erik, the "dude" in the pics just looks like his name should be Sam, the tape in the pocket seals it! Have any more pictures of the "temporary" setup on the bandsaw?

BTW that was my evil master plan, I pushed the whole feeder issue because I knew it would end up with a bandsaw picture...:p

[Mike Heidrick]

I am questioning the piece of ply and two C clamp setup honestly on the bandsaw. I know my 1hp comatic 3 wheeler is 100lbs. I too want to see more.

[Erik Loza]

Erik, the "dude" in the pics just looks like his name should be Sam, the tape in the pocket seals it! Have any more pictures of the "temporary" setup on the bandsaw?

BTW that was my evil master plan, I pushed the whole feeder issue because I knew it would end up with a bandsaw picture...:p

LOL, yes that is Sam. He is the ww'er and I'm the photographer, so he shows up in all my pics. Honeslty, I wish everyone would take one of his bandsaw classes. There is one whole wall in his shop pretty much just for bandsaw jigs.


I am questioning the piece of ply and two C clamp setup honestly on the bandsaw. I know my 1hp comatic 3 wheeler is 100lbs. I too want to see more.

Aigner rail and table, rock-solid...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Aignertablewithpowerfeeder.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/MM24withpowerfeeder2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Samwithnewlaminatestrips.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/AignerTableMounting1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/AignerTableMounting2.jpg

[Mike Heidrick]

I knew there was more too it! No way it was just ply and C clamps LOL. That rail is priced like a feeder LOL.

[Erik Loza]

Hahaha..Indeed. Sam is a master at jigs and setups. He has those Aigner rails on pretty much everything in his shop...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Aignerextensions.jpg

[Van Huskey]

Taking one of Sam's bandsaw classes is on my bucket list!

Thanks for the feeder setup pictures!

As a confessed non-shaper and thus a non-feeder guy are most/all/very few feeders easy to turn horizontal?

[Mike Heidrick]

They pivot very easily on all axis IMO.

I am still prefering a traditional bandsaw feeder setup but if you only own a 3/ wheel and you have the space for the setup then maybe that will work.

I am thinking I need some 8020 tables Aigner style :)

[Peter Quinn]

They pivot very easily on all axis IMO.

I am still prefering a traditional bandsaw feeder setup but if you only own a 3/ wheel and you have the space for the setup then maybe that will work.

I am thinking I need some 8020 tables Aigner style :)

Ditto. i love those pics, but I'm on a low budget presently. How does a professional wood worker afford machine accessories priced like surgical equipment I've always wondered? Working wood just doesn't seems to pay enough to buy an Aigner T-shirt let alone the actual goods. LOL I really like that BS power feed set up, I now have an extra 3 wheel feeder, maybe the 8020 surplus store is the solution? Every time I'm looking for a hold down or table extension I check the Aigner catalogue to see how they would do it, then I start looking for a home spun version with similar functionality.

[Carl Beckett]

Erik, the "dude" in the pics just looks like his name should be Sam, the tape in the pocket seals it! Have any more pictures of the "temporary" setup on the bandsaw?

BTW that was my evil master plan, I pushed the whole feeder issue because I knew it would end up with a bandsaw picture...:p

LMAO

But loving the pictures!!!

[Greg Urwiller]

Mike, what don't you like about the smaller feeders? I've never seen a power feeder (used) advertised any where near my location so I may have to go new. Hate to spend more than the shaper cost!

ETA: Don't know why, but no posts after Mike's comment on buying another feeder showed up until I posted this question. Big surprise to post and see all the others especially with all the pictures. NICE pics but now I'm drooling!

[Peter Quinn]

I think that some of the disagreement here is caused by the size of cuts people are using the shaper for... some of us may be doing full size walk in doors, or architectural moldings that are much bigger, and the power feeder is a natural for that. Anyone hogging off large cuts should have one, as well as any shop making large runs of molding.

This pretty much defines my thinking on the feeder subject. I would add that when I am doing small runs or small cuts on small workpieces I often just use the router table anyway. But most of what I use the shaper for is really too big or too much volume to want to hand feed, so that may color my thinking on the subject.

I just watched the Laguna video of Mike H's shaper (really nice shaper BTW Mike!) and the presenter makes a 3/4" raised panel door using a Garniga door set, hand feed, push blocks and mechanical hold downs. At the end he notes "We did this one door by hand, but in a production environment where you are making a lot of doors, you probably would want to get a power feeder to make it easier...." Seems the salesmen and the internet experts are in collusion?

[Mike Heidrick]

The small feeders may be just what some folks want. Features I felt that are nicer on a 1hp feeder are length of the arms, lack of flex in the arm at that extent, and the control of the hold down pressure, and the weight head. This is just with 1/4hp and 1/8hp models on a 3+hp shaper that I have owned. I will try my 1/4hp feeder on my router table and see if I like it. May be perfect for a small table shaper too? Once I tried a 1hp feeder though I was wanting that size and mass.

[Jeff Duncan]

As a confessed non-shaper and thus a non-feeder guy are most/all/very few feeders easy to turn horizontal?


All feeders can be turned horizontal, (feeding against the fence), to my knowledge, however the Univer with the way the motor is mounted horizontally as opposed to vertically, makes the process significantly quicker. Unless you have tried both you probably wouldn't really have a strong opinion. I have, and so it really annoys the heck out of me whenever I have to rotate my 4 wheel Delta as, for other reasons, it's mounted on my main shaper. It's very clumsy and just takes too long!

I know it's been mentioned before but I'll reiterate that the better quality bigger feeders tend to work just a bit better too. The lesser quality feeders tend to not lock down as well and can creep on you in use. My Delta is also a PITA in this regard:( It has it's good points and gets the job done, but it's not the best feeder out there.

All this to say that any feeder is going to be better than no feeder. Once you've used one enough one will develop their own preferences....just like any other piece of equipment;)

JeffD

[Van Huskey]

My interest is obviously bandsaw based and since I see used 3ph wheel 3/4 feeders sell for a song all the time and I don't want to make my MM20 a permanent resaw machine (though I really don't know why not as it isn't like I don't have others) I liked Sam's setup. If it is good enough for "Samantics" it is certainly good enough for me. The BS feeder I would REALLY like to have is the belt sander lookin' one Laguna has that fits on the Driftmaster fence but it is about $2300 and I just can't justify it no matter how I try and I ain't gonna find one of those used. In the end it is just an excuse to have another used tool to look for. Heck, because of threads like this I have numbers like T110 in my CL search engine...

RE the 8020, even using 8020 extensions wouldn't be cheap, the Aigner rails are cheap so I have been thinking of getting a pair of Aigner extensions since I have several places they could be used. I have a couple of machines where the top has a draft (obviously for release from the mold) so the side is not perpendicular to the top, anyone know how one attaches a Aigner rail to one of these?


This is one of those threads that could cost me money but somehow my mind will convince me I am saving money...


Peter, re the feeder setup. One cheaper and maybe more useful and time efficient way to use an EXTRA feeder would be to build a cart/cabinet with machine leveling casters and a top at the same height as the bandsaw and mount the feeder on it (ballast in the bottom of the cart!!!) then have it set up so you could C-clamp the cart to the BS table. When you get ready to move it just move the feeder head back close to the mount so the weight is over the cart and roll it into a corner. It may be a stupid idea but thats what I was thinking about earlier while drinking a couple of beers with the neighbors, eating BBQ and feining interest in what ever they were talking about...

[Carl Beckett]

Well Van, Im pretty sure you DO need a dedicated resaw bandsaw - and likely need one with a feeder, and another without the feeder.

Since Im pretty confident the saws you have are in good use, you may as well start shopping for two more saws.......

[David Kumm]

I think there was a regular feeder with a special base for use on a bandsaw on woodweb recently. As to the horizontal mounted feeder, I'm not sure that was a true univer design. They may have sourced some of that machine elsewhere- maybe even Comatic. I know they make them and have seen them referred to as " Wegoma" feeders but i think they are rebadged as well. Periodically on older Elu or other euro feeder of horizontal design will pop up for sale. And Grizzly sells a comatic version. I'm never sure if Grizzly specs the same parts as other rebadged Comatics. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

The grizzly medium bandsaw feeder I own is Comatic made. Same with Lagunas bandsaw feeder. Comatic videos on youtube show some interesting models including a HUGE one.

[Larry Edgerton]

Anyone using a Steff Vario 4? I do a lot of small runs and want to be able to change quickly or on the fly if I see I am too fast. Gears are a pain.

I have thought about running a VFD as well so I do not have to run the phase converter for the power feed as I have a half single phase equipment. Vario 4's only come in three phase. I really need to break down and buy a Phase Perfect. When the house is done......

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Anyone using a Steff Vario 4? I do a lot of small runs and want to be able to change quickly or on the fly if I see I am too fast. Gears are a pain.

I have thought about running a VFD as well so I do not have to run the phase converter for the power feed as I have a half single phase equipment. Vario 4's only come in three phase. I really need to break down and buy a Phase Perfect. When the house is done......

Larry


This has me thinking....I just got a 3 phase feeder as part of a shaper purchase, its an MEC brand (older italian stuff) 1HP, its an 8 speed, has a 4 speed gear lever on it. I haven't fired it up yet, so I don't know if the speeds will hit all the ranges I use or not, but I sure like the idea of having 8 speeds on the fly with no gear swaps. But I like the idea of variable speed even better. Just today at work I was making some base moulding in cherry, and I could't get just the right speed on a steff 2038. It was either too slow with a hint of burning, or too fast with a hint of tear out. Would have loved to be able to dial in that Goldy Locks setting. My needs at home are far more basic, but It might be interesting to power the feeder with a VFD and perhaps use it on the BS as well where feed speed is a bit more critical and variable. I don't know much about VFD's, and idea where to look for one?

[Mike Heidrick]

All of mine have come from factorymation (FM50), or from ebay. FM50, Hitachi X200, GE Fuji mini 300, and the Bonfiglioli VFD are the brands I own and all are very good. All but the GE were new from mfg and the GE came with my shaper.

[Van Huskey]

This has me thinking....I just got a 3 phase feeder as part of a shaper purchase, its an MEC brand (older italian stuff) 1HP, its an 8 speed, has a 4 speed gear lever on it. I haven't fired it up yet, so I don't know if the speeds will hit all the ranges I use or not, but I sure like the idea of having 8 speeds on the fly with no gear swaps. But I like the idea of variable speed even better. Just today at work I was making some base moulding in cherry, and I could't get just the right speed on a steff 2038. It was either too slow with a hint of burning, or too fast with a hint of tear out. Would have loved to be able to dial in that Goldy Locks setting. My needs at home are far more basic, but It might be interesting to power the feeder with a VFD and perhaps use it on the BS as well where feed speed is a bit more critical and variable. I don't know much about VFD's, and idea where to look for one?

Especially if you are only going to change speed within a small range a VFD would be perfect, the wider range you want to run without changing gears the more you have to think about the Torque/HP you need and how far you can slow the motor and still get the job done. The Teco FM50 would work fine and is low cost but there are lots of other options. Mike is the king of eBay VFDs and has gotten good deals.

[Michael W. Clark]

This is a very interesting thread and I have been reading it to further my limited knowledge of shapers. I don't have a shaper but am considering getting one. The discussion about feeders is very interesting in that I can see the benefits of them, but I can also see myself running some parts without one. I am surprised the feeders are not VFD from the OEM. If you only have a few select speeds, it seems like you would encounter a feed rate issue on a regular basis. Are any of the shapers VFD to eliminate the belt changes or would you have a problem with the HP/torque issue when doing this?

Mike

[Mike Heidrick]

Michael, my shaper is VFD but I still do a belt change to change speeds. They make it quick to change but not as fast as dialing a VFD up or down. Big shapers would have very expensive VFDs. They go up in price dramaticlly above 3hp.

The 2.2kw 3hp spindle on my cnc is 3 phase and I control the speed via a VFD and Mach software and a RS485 modbus interface. That spindle is designed to run at 24000rpm at 400Hz 3ph so you definately need a VFD.

The Hitach X200 is about $151 and has a pot you can use to adjust speeds easily. You could also wire a switch to reverse rotation easily.

I just got that Spindle Moulder book in the mail you guys recommended. Awesome reading!

[David Kumm]

Michael, while a vfd on a feeder can work well, an OEM version is overcomplicating a simple machine IMO. A feeder has a two speed motor with a drum switch. With 8 speeds and 4 or 5 on the shaper it isn't often you can't find a combination that works. An internal vfd would eliminate some switches but the two speed motor would likely stay and care would have to be taken to operate the motor within the rpm range to keep it cool as feeders are under load a lot. If the vfd goes the replacement will probably cost a fortune. It would have to be pretty compact to allow the feeder to be mounted both vertically and horizontally. In this case I think an add on would be better- sort of like navigation systems. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Another good point, VFD's are not typically supposed to work with multi speed motors and you typically do not want any switch between teh VFD and the motor. Care must be taken not to change speeds at the feeder or turn off the motor at the feeder as well. On a typical VFD setup you would wire the VFD directly to the motor but that may or may not work with some feeders. YMMV.

On my bandsaw feeder where I installed a VFD I left the comatic switch in place and do not use it. I am the only one using my tools in my shop so I should be OK.

I like David's idea of keeping the VFD seperate.

[Larry Edgerton]

I'm not sure a VFD alone would give you what you need. Look at the range of feed speeds and you would have to seriously be under/overspeeding a motor to reach the far ends.

I think the Vario 4 is the easiest answer. I have that same sort of variable drive on a lathe and a drill press, and they have worked for years with no issues. I just don't like the $1600 price so much......

A DC motor would be another possibility, but that is beyond the scope of my understanding.

Larry

[Mike Heidrick]

Larry I did not follow you. Here is what I am thinking.

A 1hp VFD would allow Peter to use all his speeds. Setting the speed on the feeder (switch and gear) before turning on the VFD will set the upper limit. Powering on the VFD and varying the Hz rating from 0-60hz will give him zero to the top speed of the gear's range. The feeders gearing will give him the speed range multiplier needed for the 1725 rpm motor to make full speed at 60hz. Full torque at 6% for the FM50 I think. Not sure on HP effects but I doubt he will ever be that slow (low Hz) to make a difference with 4 speeds each direction available.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree that in Peters case with a four speed quick change it will give him what he wants.

It would not be a solution for feeders like I have now that you have to manually switch gears because of the huge range. Say I set my gears to a range in the middle, to reach a very low speed I would be in danger of overheating, same with the higher feed rates. Now if I had Peters feeder, that would work fine as the VFD would basically be a fine adjustment.

I was more thinking a VFD as I hate the sound of my RotoPhase. I am over this converter thing. Bought one big enough for a wide belt, starts 50 hp, and it is annoying. I need a Phase Perfect for all the smaller tools under 10 hp but have to keep plugging away on the house for now.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Just for the sake of understanding does anyone know how the variofeed steff units achieve the variable speed? My shop fox molder has a fractional HP inverted DC motor, and if I understand it pulls one leg off the 220V coming in for power. Is gives me infinitely variable speed over its range of 6-18fPM. I was looking into a mini-split heating/cooling unit which is also powered by an inverted DC motor, and appearantly it never really shuts off in use, it just moves very very slowly when demand is low. So I wonder why we dont see more inverted dc motors in wood working applications? I use a Gemco wide belt at work with a thing called a "euto drive" hanging off the outfeed that creates variable speed, I have no idea how that works either, but it gives you a wide range of speed control on the fly.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Peter, the electronically commutated DC motors are really 3 phase AC motors with an inverter drive.

The normal DC motor has a mechanical commutator and brushes, and are suitable for various applications, series, shunt and compound configurations yield various properties that are useful.

Series for example have very high low speed torque, good for traction applications or drilling etc.

A VFD and a 3 phase motor is very common for variable speed applications however you lose power in proportion to speed reduction.

The other common variable speed is the variable pitch pulley system, which yields increasing torque with a reduction in speed, ideal for many applications such as drilling with larger drills.

The deciding factor is always cost versus requirements.

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Heidrick]

There is some serrated wheels on ebay that would fit a 1hp comatic and maybe steff traditional 1hp feeder. They are like what is on my bandsaw feeder only much smaller. If you guys go the samblascomatic way of feeding a bandsaw with a traditional feeder check them out. Search for ACCURA APFS-121 SERRATED STEEL POWER STOCK FEEDER ROLL- COMATIC #RS121 MONSTER!

[Larry Edgerton]

Peter

Have you ever looked at a snowmobile clutch?

They basically have variable size pulleys by way of the sides of the pulleys moving in and out. They use centrifigal force/ramps to control sizing on snowmobiles but on machines such as my old Walker Turner drill press, you control the pulleys with a lever. They work in unison, as the drive pulley gets bigger by coming together, the final drive pulley closes in/gets smaller to compensate so belt length stays the same.

From what I can read the Vario works in this manner, but I live in the sticks and have never seen one. Before I drop that kind of coin I would like to hear how they work or better yet see one. I will say that both my drill press and a Garret-Brodhead lathe that I have with the same setup both work well and have been dependable. Speed can be changed on the fly, in fact it has to be running to change speeds. I like the idea because it is not electronic trickery that is hard on the motor, just gearing with a belt.

[Van Huskey]

There is some serrated wheels on ebay that would fit a 1hp comatic and maybe steff traditional 1hp feeder. They are like what is on my bandsaw feeder only much smaller. If you guys go the samblascomatic way of feeding a bandsaw with a traditional feeder check them out. Search for ACCURA APFS-121 SERRATED STEEL POWER STOCK FEEDER ROLL- COMATIC #RS121 MONSTER!



Wonder if you could glue a wrap of 60g sandpaper to them, the Laguna BS feeders use this approach.

[Van Huskey]

Peter

Have you ever looked at a snowmobile clutch?

They basically have variable size pulleys by way of the sides of the pulleys moving in and out. They use centrifigal force/ramps to control sizing on snowmobiles but on machines such as my old Walker Turner drill press, you control the pulleys with a lever. They work in unison, as the drive pulley gets bigger by coming together, the final drive pulley closes in/gets smaller to compensate so belt length stays the same.

From what I can read the Vario works in this manner, but I live in the sticks and have never seen one. Before I drop that kind of coin I would like to hear how they work or better yet see one. I will say that both my drill press and a Garret-Brodhead lathe that I have with the same setup both work well and have been dependable. Speed can be changed on the fly, in fact it has to be running to change speeds. I like the idea because it is not electronic trickery that is hard on the motor, just gearing with a belt.

That would be a Reeves drive no?

[Larry Edgerton]

That would be a Reeves drive no?

Correct.

Larry

[Mike Heidrick]

Comatic AF20 - I think Laguna cobbled parts of this for the driftmaster.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxlohzqXcdo&feature=relmfu

[Mike Heidrick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN35emIJJMI&feature=relmfu

[Peter Quinn]

Mike, that AF-20 set up looks great. I wonder how it handles 8"-12" resaw in terms of vertical support ? One would have to do a LOT of resaw to justify a set up like that, but its cool as can be. I've used the guys on ebay you pointed to for comatic wheels before, I think that the "Tool Supermarket" is actually an outfit called Hamilton Tool and Supply in Beaversfalls PA. Nice guys, actual humans that know tools when you call, they got me the split hub urethane replacement wheels and the lower gear set for my Comatic feeder. Comatic seems to have some pretty innovative specialized feeders. My grizzly comatic is actually a bit easier to set up and use than the steff sitting next to it. Problem is the motors IME. I do small molding runs for contractors occasionally, say !000LF or less, smaller stuff like panel or base mold, brick mold, etc. I did one using the cometic where the cut edge was to be wrapped in fabric, so I ran it full up as it was a small round over and finish quality didn't matter. After about 40 minutes, the motor stopped, overheated and shut off. I rested it, let it cool, it reset and worked fine at a lower speed.

I recently did a similar but longer run with the steff feeder, no problems. At work I've pushed steff feeders, some of them quite old, for hours and hours, never a single glitch. So my sample set is pretty small, and the comatic has worked flawlessly otherwise, but it does leave me scratching my head. If comatic and steff would each send me three feeders I would be happy to conduct a more scientific side by side test....:D

[Mike Heidrick]

I ran a house full of trim on my comatic Delta and it was cool to the touch. That was easily a 1000LF. Did not measure it in the shop though. Maybe yours needs a motor shop to look at it? Not sure what they would do or say if you walked in with a feeder?

[Chris Fournier]

I use my 1 1/4" tilting shaper with and with out my feeder. As has been pointed out cutters are typically denoted hand or machine feed. If I can take lighter multiple passes, then for a smaller run I'll go with my excellent shaper fence and hold down set up and hand feed to save shop time. If there is a large quantity, tricky material position across the cutter, or perfect finish quality required I will set up the feeder and be grateful to use it. I agree with David that the combination of shaper spindle speeds and feeders with hi/low feeds and multi speed gearboxes pretty much makes a VFD set up unecessary.

[Van Huskey]

This is Laguna's version of the AF20 http://www.lagunatools.com/feeders/Laguna-Power-Feeder#


They also use sandpaper on some of their wheeled bandsaw feeders.

[Mike Heidrick]

Cool video on a T27


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urmz_cpHsH0&feature=related

[mreza Salav]

That fence is very nice (had never seen one like that). It should eliminate the need of adjustment among the two fences, shims, etc. I like that!

[Mike Heidrick]

That is the Aigner faces. Pricey but they can be added to Felder fences too. Maybe others.

Stomana's have bars that slip in vs rotating in like Aigner. Not as slick but very eeffective as well. I think you could make your own if you wanted.


Stomana's system:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/P7014115.jpg

Shop built one here by a wood web member: http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/ShopBuilt_Adjustable_Shaper_Fence.html

[Mike Heidrick]

SMC thread from 2007 on the Aigner fence.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?51428-Aigner-Shaper-Fence-%28long%29

www dot simantechinc dot com has the Aigner fence faces for $1897.50 starting up to $2208.44

[mreza Salav]

Thanks for the links. Very cool fence.

[Peter Quinn]

Wow, the T27 sure is an awesome machine. They haven't missed a thing with that one. I always get a thrill watching a Martin video, good pure tool porn there. What really caught my eye was the "countermax" aigner coping accessory the gentleman is using in the video. That might just be the best coping jig I've seen in terms of ease of use and pure function. And unlike the $40K+ machine he is using it on, its totally accessible to your average user. That may just be in my future, as my new to me shaper has no miter slot in the table, so my old miter gauge based coping sled ceases to work there. Thanks for posting that vid Mike.

[joe milana]

236463
Check out this guys solution to high cost shaper fences. Not sure how it will hold up, but you gotta give him an E for effort.

[Rod Sheridan]

Looks like a copy of an Aigner....................Rod

[Van Huskey]

It is designed more like the Stomana but that may be a "copy" of the Aigner without infringement.

Watching the T-27 video I was curious does the machines have to be taught the setup for each cutter or does it somehow know the way to setup a specific set of rail/stile/raising cutters? In other words did someone at some point have to set them up the old fashioned trial and error fashion and add them to the machines memory? Very cool either way.

[Mike Heidrick]

Guessing there is a tool library Van. Uploadable. Sure you can make custom settings as well. Probably many for each cutter.

Should be a way to set machine zero for the position of the parts of the machine to each other.

I love the power closing of the rings to the tooling.


That homemade looks a lot like my Stomana fence!

You could probably achieve a similar result by using 8020 and just making wooden fingers. You could attach it to the housing/face with T-nuts.

[Van Huskey]

It would have been interesting if the Martin video had had an inset with a person setting up and using a "standard" analog shaper making a single door as well, doing a single door would have made the difference in setup quite clear.

[joe milana]

That video is pretty cool. Kinda like visiting your local Mercedes Benz dealer to check out the latest SL. I'm sure you have to program in all parameters, because if you use brazed cutters & had them sharpened, all settings would be off. Maybe using brazed cutters on that machine are like mud flaps on a Cadillac.:confused: I also notice that you have to raise panels face down to take advantage of the fence "fingers". Not sure how well that works with a power feeder.

[Jeff Duncan]

See I came away with a different perspective after I watched the Martin shaper videos. I found the setup to be quite time consuming and personally I could setup for a single door quicker than that video. I think where the CNC comes in handy is when your constantly making different doors parts and want the easy repeatability. For a small shop like mine that's too cumbersome to deal with. For a door shop with stacked Euro tooling on multiple spindles....totally different story;)

I can say in complete honesty that as cool as they look, I wouldn't trade my 69' Martin for a newer one. All those circuit boards and gizmos scare the crap out of me:( I like my machines nice and simple.....so I can figure how to fix them;)

JeffD

[Van Huskey]

See I came away with a different perspective after I watched the Martin shaper videos. I found the setup to be quite time consuming and personally I could setup for a single door quicker than that video. I think where the CNC comes in handy is when your constantly making different doors parts and want the easy repeatability. For a small shop like mine that's too cumbersome to deal with. For a door shop with stacked Euro tooling on multiple spindles....totally different story;)

I can say in complete honesty that as cool as they look, I wouldn't trade my 69' Martin for a newer one. All those circuit boards and gizmos scare the crap out of me:( I like my machines nice and simple.....so I can figure how to fix them;)

JeffD

I can see all of your points, especially the computer control vs fixing... I would imagine the time could have been shorter if he was doing it not for demo but speed, just the keypad input time could have been cut in half I would think.

I have a question coming from a non-shaper person. Could the three (if there is enough room if not two) cutters all be stacked on the same spindle and just raised and lowered into correct position avoiding the spindle change times?

BTW glad I am a "bandsaw guy" the difference between what I have and what I lust for is far smaller than it would be if I was a "shaper guy".

[David Kumm]

Van, the big shapers are made for stacking cutters. You need a strong quill and the bigger the spindle the better. Depends on size and weight because the higher up the spindle the more potential vibration and problem. The issue isn't so much the stacking as having to change the fence or feeder position. The cutters need to be able to be referenced off the same fence setting for the stacking to make the most sense. If you have the room- I use a stand alone and a saw shaper- it is lots easier to have separate setups. Once you get the fence and feeder "just right" it's tough to swap. Some shapers have fences that index to the table to aid in removal and replacement but good fences are heavy . If you like a tongue and groove joint with a deeper and longer stub it is difficult to find a fence setting that works both the cope and stick. Some of the larger insert tooling likely avoids those problems. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I keep looking at those shapers, SCM, not Martin with the readouts and I just don't have the business any more to justify the cost. The fence readouts would be the most important in my world. I used to think it was silly until I got a SCM planer with digital thickness readout. It would be ten times cooler on a shaper. But..... My business went from 18 employees to just one, and I don't see anything on the horizon that is going to change that.

Larry

[Jeff Duncan]

David covered most of it....the newer CNC's I believe on SCM's and Martins, (not sure of others?), have automatic fence settings also. So while your spindle is automatically raising, your fence is also positioning itself for the next cut. So you would stack 2 or 3 sets of tooling that would go together on the spindle and minimize your setup time. When you switch to a different door style you simply swap the whole spindle assembly for another already loaded with tooling:D

It's pretty sweet but as Larry mentioned....you really have to have a steady stream of work coming in to justify the cost. I think I mentioned this before on another thread, but a local shop I occasionally outsource moldings to has a newer Martin. I think it's over 10 years old now, but still has all the bells and whistles. The owners father bought it and IIRC spent something like $60k for it. I picked up some stock from him last year and the machine was sitting idle with an electronic problem. Diagnosed over the phone with Martin and the replacement part was going to run something like $1300 or so. Picked up some more stock maybe 6 weeks or so later and machine was still sitting idle. Like many of us business has slowed down a lot and he was nervous about dumping a lot of money into the machine not being sure it was the problem. Electronic issues can be intimidating to say the least! Only machine in my shop currently with electronic parts is the edgebander.....and when it goes down I either pick up the phone and get the tech over.....or get the iron out! There are just so many specialties I can handle:(

JeffD

[joe milana]

Kinda makes you wonder what the used machine market will look like in ten years or so. Maybe we'll see ad's like: "Older (2012) martin shaper, spindle spins, but other controls inoperable. Excellent resto' project for woodworker well versed in electronics. Was 65k new, asking 5k". :eek: :confused: ;)

[Mike Heidrick]

Kinda makes you wonder what the used machine market will look like in ten years or so. Maybe we'll see ad's like: "Older (2012) martin shaper, spindle spins, but other controls inoperable. Excellent resto' project for woodworker well versed in electronics. Was 65k new, asking 5k". :eek: :confused: ;)

Boy I sure hope so :)

[Mike Heidrick]

I have a question coming from a non-shaper person. Could the three (if there is enough room if not two) cutters all be stacked on the same spindle and just raised and lowered into correct position avoiding the spindle change times?



I have a Freud UC900 complete RP door set up on one spindle (three sets of cutters) RP and RS cutters. Just adjust height (for RS) and fence needs moved slightly for RP.

[Van Huskey]

OK, this thread has gone to far, it has me actually looking at Martin shapers much in the way a boy who can't even drive yet stares at a Ferrari 458 Italia (and not much closer to being able to afford it either). I was even looking at Aigner shaper fences last night.

Now here is something I am truely pondering and I know deep in the bowels of this thread I will get different answers than out on the "open" but people that see it here have the opinions I am interested in. I get cabinet doors, interior doors and moulding BUT when it comes to fine furniture where is the real draw to own a shaper? I understand the speed of hogging and the better angle of attack with big cutters but what is the draw for the hobby furniture maker? I will probably only make 1-2 more sets of kitchen cabs in my life and I know the next one will be slab fronts made from some exotic (wives dream) so unless I trade in my wife (I've yet to see one better and cheaper on Craig's list) I am having a hard time seeing where I would get much use from a shaper and certainly not 4-6K on a used "big boy" shaper then all the "jewelry" for it. I always figured I would pick up a used old US built shaper with a feeder for $1500 at some point to play with but the bigger nicer price point just doesn't seem to be justifiable, though in all honesty compared to what I produce NONE of my machines are really justifiable...

[Larry Edgerton]

Van, do NOT lookk directly at the pretty bright light! Turn and walk away. I know how you are and so know how much this will cost you.

See the problem is that the shaper is the cheap part. I have two shapers and there is a locking cabinet full of cutters that cost a whole heck of a lot more than the shapers. I do not have a Aigner fence, I would instead buy a milling machine before I spent that kind of money. But you on the other hand, you best stay off the slippery slope. You are an addict.

Hi, my name is Van, and I am a toolaholic......

If you ever need a custom moulding I will run it for you at the cost of the knives, and you can give me a ride in that 250 GTO when you win the lottery......

Larry

[David Kumm]

Van, I've got a cherry 1998 Felder F7 just waiting for your truck. The pickup will make it down the slippery slope. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Van, you have pretty much answered your own question. For the hobby furniture maker there is no logical practical reason to own a production shaper, and certainly no decent argument other than "Its shiny and this mountain of cash was burning a hole in my pocket" to even consider a Martin. Now could you make use of one? You betchya. Get one with the biggest fatest widest table, a giant spindle, throw a 4" Byrd head with a bearing on there, and you have the ultimate flush trim tool for curved parts, like table or chair legs, rocker arms, etc. Get one with a slow speed (less than 2K RPM), throw a sanding head on there with a bearing, you can flush sand parts to a template. Is this necessary for the home furniture maker? Does the average guy need four band saws? There is a guy here locally that makes 18th century reproduction furniture, gorgeous veneered stuff with lots of sawn mahogany crotch panels and such, ball and claw feet, curved legs....When I asked about his Bs, he laughed. Old old rockwell 6", all the resaw gets done by hand with German frame saw. Yes, he makes priceless furniture W/O the aid of a 24" italian or Ole Iron saw. See where I'm going with this....What you need is very little. What you want is part of the addiction. What you get is up to you.

[Peter Quinn]

Hate to keep piling on this thread, but I son't see a better outlet of these small shaper related thoughts. i ran a circuit to the MEC 8 feeder today, no need for VFD as others pointed out. With 8 speeds on the fly well spread out over the usable range, I don't think there will be any trouble finding one appropriate for every need, from BS to TS to shaper, where ever it goes, it will be at the right speed, or close enough. Call me crazy but I think three phase feeders are perhaps quieter than single phase? I may get a very long cord and start driving this feeder to work.............................:rolleyes:

[Mike Heidrick]

Peter I just got an 8 speed comatic 1hp 4 wheel Sat. I too think the feed speeds are perfect but I have not used it yet for actual feeding - just tested it running on the bench. My only 3ph feeder is on the bandsaw and I did not have a choice in that deal.

You mentioned feeders being loud - mine are not loud at all - none of them are loud. Are yours loud??

I need to get installing some feeder outlets now I guess.

[Michael W. Clark]

The way I'm considering a shaper for home/hobby use is that I am at a point where I "want" to upgrade my router table setup. I "want" to have something that can run the PR bits, have a sturdy top that doesn't sag, good positive adjustments that lock in place and stay locked, and runs quieter (I'm assuming shapers are somewhat quieter with the induction motors). I could build a table, cabinet, buy a 3HP router, lift, plate, fence, etc. But, by the time I do all this, I will have a significant amount of money and time invested and still have a router table. Not that there is anything wrong with a good router table setup, it definitely has its place, but if I can put this money toward a 3HP shaper with a router spindle and maybe a cabinet door set, that gives some versatility for future projects that I don't currently have.

When I referred to VFDs earlier, I just assumed the feeders were VFD because of the need for speed change. Obviously if you have a wide range of speeds and need the HP at the low speed (hi-torque) a VFD may not be the most economical and maintenance friendly set-up.

The variable pitch belt systems are also called CVTs, continuously variable transmissions. We used one made by Comet on a mini-baja car project in college. It was mated to a 10HP B&S engine and the car would bark the tires on pavement and reach a top speed of about 35 MPH, not bad for a 10HP stock motor. The CVT would go from about 4:1 reduction to an overdrive of about 0.8:1.

Mike

[Jeff Duncan]

Come on in Van...the waters fine:D

Peter pretty much covered it....justifying machinery is something that's often more personal than anything. There are members here who have nicer equipment in their hobby shops than I have in my shop, and I do this for a living! However you know full well you don't need to spend big bucks to get a nice machine. I got my 2nd Martin w/ feeder for $1200 bucks at an online auction. The first one was cheaper up front, but I fully rebuilt it so that's where the money went. And of course you don't "need" a Martin or an SCM shaper. That old American shaper, if a good one in good condition, will do everything the Euro shapers do. They're just not quite as fast and flexible to set up and go.

As you mentioned many of the things a shaper does can be replicated on a router table, albeit not quite as fast and clean. Another place it can be useful in furniture is with custom profiles. With a shaper you have more flexibility to make up profiles...especially bigger one's, than on the router. While you can spend a small fortune on tooling, you can also pick up a Euro block with a set of profiles and get a whole lot of use out of it! Add a corrugated head at some point and you get even more flexibility! Another thing that comes in handy if your doing a lot of exotics is being able to run one of the insert heads as Peter mentioned and get perfect edges on stock!

So while the average hobby shop does not need a shaper.....a guy with 4 bandsaws......well:cool:

JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

I also don't see a real need for a VFD on a feeder in most cases. I'm sure there could be specialty uses....but then again you could buy a variable speed feeder for maybe a little more $$$ and maintain your hp and torque? For the way I work I find the fastest speed I can use and run it. If the "perfect" speed happens to be between my available speeds....I just go with the slower one;) I don't generally change spindle speed based on feeder speed....I view them as somewhat separate entities. Spindle speed gets dictated by the size of the cutters. Feed speed by the size of cutters, species of wood, depth of cut, and so on.

As far as noise I couldn't honestly say.....only time my feeders are on is when there's wood being pushed through the cutters. Which happens to coincide with my dust collector running. Which means my headphones are on.....does the feeder make noise? If a tree falls in the forest.....:D

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I wasn't suggesting that the feeders are noisy, but that the 3 phase feeder I just got was a bit quieter than the single phase models I have around it. I happened to be wiring the three phase circuits for a new shaper/feeder last night and was testing the feeder on the bench by it self. Fact is all the feeders often get left on because they are so much quieter than the DC and shaper or saw they are running with. So yes, it's a moot point, but sitting in a quiet shop listening to the hum of an old feeder is my kind of entertainment! Have you watched tV lately....most nights I'd rather watch the feeder!

[Van Huskey]

I am just showing some restraint on the shaper issue, figure at some point a good deal on a "small" production level shaper will show up and I will jump in the water, right now I don't really have room to store one anyway... Strangly enough the most interesting thing to me presently is building a fence for the shaper after seeing the really cool fences and then the home grown version!

I apparently am in super restraint mode since one of the few bandsaws I "want" showed up on CL (its a small saw so not expensive) "only" 350 miles from me, it is the first one I have seen on CL in years but never the less I am sitting at home instead of driving to get it. OK I will be honest my wife and I agreed to "tighten" up until I can get the shop built and if I were to come home with another BS when we were supposed to be "saving" the shoe/purse budget might back up to "normal" levels next week and I may never get the shop built. Oh, the round trip to pick it up is too long for me to slip out and slip back in with the saw...:D

[David Kumm]

I am familiar with the diamond surcharge and the shoe tax. Dave

[David Kumm]

Hey Van, check out Marlowe McGraw's Northfield shaper on Woodweb. Good guy who is selling his excess stuff which is always in great condition. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Hey Van, check out Marlowe McGraw's Northfield shaper on Woodweb. Good guy who is selling his excess stuff which is always in great condition. Dave

No NO NO! As I said I am not even buying a CHEAP $400 bandsaw, mainly because I can't get out of the house for 12 hours without getting caught! Its a Candian Beaver 3300 14" ALL aluminum casting saw, very cool and I will have one but I must resist!!! If I am asking my wife to save I need to also, I wonder if I could get around that by showing her I overpaid my quarterly income tax last year and will be applying well over the $400 to this years taxes, it would be kinda like I spent that $400 last year or at the very latest Jan 15 of this year...

[Jeff Duncan]

but sitting in a quiet shop listening to the hum of an old feeder is my kind of entertainment! Have you watched tV lately....most nights I'd rather watch the feeder!

Although I admit I still enjoy running my new shapers.....being in the wood shop 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.....I'm ready to go home and watch some TV....but if your in the neighborhood feel free to come by and watch my feeders as well:D Actually my new form of "entertainment" is fishing. I haven't really done any in over 25 years, but my son is just starting into it and I have to admit it's far more appealing to me now then it was then. So may need to start spending a little less time listening to machinery and a little more time listening to the birds by the river;) Of course now I need to go find a fishing forum so I can be a NEWB' again:)

Van, I'm sure you already know this part of the equation...BUT.....when you want to pick up another machine you simply justify it by promising to sell off a machine to make it a wash! Of course I think it's better to have 3 bandsaws and one shaper than 5 bandsaws;) Well actually better to have 3 shapers and 1 bandsaw.....but that's just me:p Unfortunately your odds on finding a decent shaper for $400 are against you:(

I'm impressed you even look that far away.....for me 4 hours (225 miles to Brooklyn....former home of Mr. Martin), is a long trip I'd only make for a serious machine. 350 miles is not on my radar at all unless it's something I'm willing to ship. Another sign your steadily sliding down the slope!!!

JeffD

[Carl Beckett]

I always enjoyed watching those old HP pen plotters..... fascinating how it decides what line to draw next. Definitely better than anything on TV these days, especially if it also involves a lawn chair and a beer.

Pushing 3700 views on this thread. Amazing.

[Peter Quinn]

Although I admit I still enjoy running my new shapers.....being in the wood shop 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.....I'm ready to go home and watch some TV....

JeffD

I hear this. I used to work 6 doubles as a chef and 11 hours was a short day. I almost never came home and cooked dinner afterward. I gave that up and started doing this to have kids. Keeps me home nights, weekends, holidays. I spend 40-50 hours sucking sawdust for " the man" and 15-20 hours in my own shop ( some of which I actually use to do work....:D) some how the hours working for myself go a lot faster. I don't spend a lot of time watching the shaper wheels go round though. Really I don't !

[Mike Heidrick]

Path so far my shaper spindle from Silistra, Bulgaria to IL, USA. 1225 miles so far.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/spindlepath1.jpg

[Scot wolf]

Path so far my shaper spindle from Silistra, Bulgaria to IL, USA. 1225 miles so far.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/spindlepath1.jpg

Somebody has WAY too much time on thier hands! :rolleyes:

[Peter Quinn]

nah, its easy to track your toys if you are organized, doesn't take lots of time. Just focus. I'm a big time "tool shipping stalker" as my wife calls it. I'm guessing there are lots of us, perhaps a pole is in order? I'd like to know the truck drivers name at each leg of the journey, but they won't give you that level of detail....yet.:D Glad to know its on its way Mike.

[Mike Heidrick]

This might be the furthest thing I have ever ordered - all the rest went the other direction :)

DHL Int. tracking so far kicks fedex and UPS's tracking system in the butt.

[Van Huskey]

This might be the furthest thing I have ever ordered - all the rest went the other direction :)

DHL Int. tracking so far kicks fedex and UPS's tracking system in the butt.

I noticed it avoided Transylvania! Guess no need to worry about using it in the sunlight.

[Jeff Duncan]

OK, I missed a post somewhere along the way.....what shaper are we following the spindle for:confused:

JeffD

[Mike Heidrick]

Laguna/Stomana T1002S - It is a spindle that can be used with ER32 collets. Long story (that got pulled) but I purchased it from the mfg. in Bulgaria.