New to SMC and MiniMax S45 Question

[James Conrad]

Hi Folks,

Great forum you have here, already read lots of great information. I am looking at buying a MiniMax S45 with green paint so probably about 20 years old. I'm going to go check it out to be sure all is good, but it is report as "like new" condition. I can have it delivered to my door for $1200. My only reservations is the 1.5hp motor for such a large saw, it seems under powered. 3/4" max blade width, would prefer at least 1". And, the strong possibility of having to replace the rubber. So in that price range New obviously Grizzly, Rikon - not so interested in Jet based on previous experience.

Even though its older, I know its a fine saw and will do all I need and more. Any thoughts on this price, or other options?

Thanks much,
JC

[Van Huskey]

Saw: good saw for what it is: small/mid European built traditional bandsaw, they were built by SCM (parent of MM). They don't compare to the heavier resaw bandsaws built for SCM/MM by Centauro but they are priced like it either. If it is in good shape it is a nice saw, though a little low on HP but if you aren't buying it for resawing then it shouldn't be an issue, if you are buying for heavy resawing then I would consider a heavier saw.

Price: that saw is on the high side, though I don't know how much the "delivery" is worth to you. To me that saw in "plug and play" shape is more in the $800-900 range BUT it is better than anything you can buy new for the $1200. In the end value is up to you. If the tires need replacing I would check with MM before jumping in for the price of new tires. I think the new saw has urethane tires, if this one does you can get inexpensive urethane tires to fit it from several sources.

[David Kumm]

Condition and location might be great but the S45 doesn't warrant that price IMO. There are better used models in that price range and way better choices for a little more. Dave

[Van Huskey]

BTW I forgot the MOST important thing, WELCOME TO THE CREEK!

[Mike Heidrick]

JC - base your decision on you ability to source and get other tools. Value on tools is most important to you. While we might think its value at $1200 is low, if you cant get quality tools you want where you are then its value may be much higher. I read my local ads for tools and just scratch my head at the prices folks put on stuff. Welcome to the creek. Its better than any $1200 new saw was the most important phrase written.

[James Conrad]

Thanks for the comments, all sound advice. The saw is coming from Mass, I live in MD, just moved here. Haven't really found any decent suppliers if machinery here. I worked with a newer version a few years ago and thought it a solid machine. I need to travel up that way next month so I am going to look at it first hand. $1200 is about the extent of my budget since I am pretty much starting over again, I don't want to stretch too thin. I will be doing re-sawing with it but not heavy log break downs on a regular basis.

Again thanks for the input!!
JC

[Thomas Hotchkin]

James
I can't add anything else that has not been said already. But WELCOME TO SAWMILL CREEK. Tom

[James Conrad]

OK, now I just learned that the same guy has a 20" Delta/Rockwell BS... Still waiting on pics and details - decisions, decisions...

Happy Weekend,
JC

[David Kumm]

James. if the D/R is in good shape take it. The S45 is not in the same league as the Centauro saws branded for MM. Dave

[Sam Layton]

Hi James,

Welcome to the Creek. I have two MM S45's. One has the stock 1.8 hp motor, and the other has a 1.5 Baldor motor. They are older, two tone green. They are great saws. I have never had any problem with the saws being underpowered. You have to look at the blade movement to see if the saws are running, they are so smooth.

All that being said. I have resawed red oak with a 3/4" Timberwolf blade with OK results. NO drift at all. However, the cut is very rough. I wanted to install a carbide blade, and was told by MM that the S45 will not tension a carbide blade. I have also been told that some people do use a carbide blade. I am not happy with the cut quality of the Timberwolf blade for resawing. I do not have a tension gage so I can't tell how much tension I can obtain. I am just about ready to purchase a tension gage to see where I am. The tension spring is very small for the saw it seems to me. I am going to see what my tension is, and maybe get a stronger spring. The frame of the saw seems strong. Also, I am going to try different blades for general use and see how they work. I think my frame is strong enough for a stronger spring, and maybe I can get a 1/2" carbide blade.

I also purchased an old Davis and Wells 20" cast iron band saw I am going to restore. That will be my resaw band saw.

So, all in all, I like my S45's. I agree with everyone else that they don't compare with the new MM saws. However, the price does not compare as well.

Again, welcome, Sam

[James Conrad]

Thanks Sam,

This one has the 1.5 Baldor. I had called MM about this machine I am looking at, and asked just that question about the carbide blade tensioning, they were surprised at the question and commented it should not be an issue. If I remember resaw is about 10"?

JC

[Van Huskey]

First, I like Dave would pick the Delta/Rockwell if it is in good shape, it should be cheaper also. Is it the older rounded saw or the newer square saw? If you get the model number, or a picture, or just round or square I can give you more info.

The S45 always had 12" of resaw I THINK. I would avoid a thick banded carbide blade like the Lenox Trimaster and instead use a thin gauge Resaw King in 3/4" for the S45, you will get a better finish to boot.

Sam, the D&W is a nice 20" saw!

[James Conrad]

Thanks for the offer, I should have more details on D/R shortly and will post.
JC

[Richard Coers]

First, I like Dave would pick the Delta/Rockwell if it is in good shape, it should be cheaper also. Is it the older rounded saw or the newer square saw? If you get the model number, or a picture, or just round or square I can give you more info.

The S45 always had 12" of resaw I THINK. I would avoid a thick banded carbide blade like the Lenox Trimaster and instead use a thin gauge Resaw King in 3/4" for the S45, you will get a better finish to boot.

Sam, the D&W is a nice 20" saw!

I don't think the S45 ever had 12" of resaw. Mine has just under 10". They run like a Swiss watch. Replaced the original guides with Carter guides about a year after I bought it, and replaced a switch. Otherwise 24 years of perfect service. Still even on the original drive belt. Can't speak highly enough about how nice these saws are, but I sure wouldn't pay $1200.

[Van Huskey]

I don't think the S45 ever had 12" of resaw. Mine has just under 10". They run like a Swiss watch. Replaced the original guides with Carter guides about a year after I bought it, and replaced a switch. Otherwise 24 years of perfect service. Still even on the original drive belt. Can't speak highly enough about how nice these saws are, but I sure wouldn't pay $1200.

The current S45N has 12" of resaw and some of the earlier versions did too. I know the S45N has been around since at least the late 80's but I have never seen any of the shorter resaw height saws, but know I know they exist.

[Jamie Buxton]

... I live in MD, just moved here. Haven't really found any decent suppliers if machinery here....

Felder/Hammer's US headquarters are in Delaware. That's certainly closer than Massechusetts. They make really good machinery, but the prices may be higher than you want to spend.

[Erik Loza]

I don't think the S45 ever had 12" of resaw. Mine has just under 10". They run like a Swiss watch. Replaced the original guides with Carter guides about a year after I bought it, and replaced a switch. Otherwise 24 years of perfect service. Still even on the original drive belt. Can't speak highly enough about how nice these saws are, but I sure wouldn't pay $1200.

You know, the S45 gets overshadowed by the MM16 here in the US but in pretty much every other country in the world, it is about 10X more common than the Centauro saws. It's like full-sized pickup trucks and big SUV's: Common here in the US as daily drivers but relatively rare in Europe or other parts of the world. I have quite a few customers such as yourself, who have one of the older S45's and aside from the ocassional call for a new drive belt (I am shocked yours is still apparently in good working order after so many years...), whenever I talk to them, it's always, "Saw is doing great and I never plan to part with it".


The current S45N has 12" of resaw and some of the earlier versions did too. I know the S45N has been around since at least the late 80's but I have never seen any of the shorter resaw height saws, but know I know they exist.

Van here is a photo of our "old mule" from when we had the warehouse here in Austin...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Assorted%20MM%20pics/S45oldstyle.jpg

That was a 10" resaw machine, early 80's vintage. 1.5hp, 3-phase 50Hz Samco motor. That S45 saw it all and never skipped a beat. Warehouse guys always seemed to be backing into it with the forklift, dragging it around the floor by its fence rail, or leaving their sweaty drink cups on its table. Sadly, I believe it got sold for scrap when we cleared out the Austin warehouse. I would've taken it for my own garage except that a new motor would've probably cost as much as the saw. Oh, well..

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Richard Coers]

You know, the S45 gets overshadowed by the MM16 here in the US but in pretty much every other country in the world, it is about 10X more common than the Centauro saws. It's like full-sized pickup trucks and big SUV's: Common here in the US as daily drivers but relatively rare in Europe or other parts of the world. I have quite a few customers such as yourself, who have one of the older S45's and aside from the ocassional call for a new drive belt (I am shocked yours is still apparently in good working order after so many years...), whenever I talk to them, it's always, "Saw is doing great and I never plan to part with it".



Van here is a photo of our "old mule" from when we had the warehouse here in Austin...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Assorted%20MM%20pics/S45oldstyle.jpg

That was a 10" resaw machine, early 80's vintage. 1.5hp, 3-phase 50Hz Samco motor. That S45 saw it all and never skipped a beat. Warehouse guys always seemed to be backing into it with the forklift, dragging it around the floor by its fence rail, or leaving their sweaty drink cups on its table. Sadly, I believe it got sold for scrap when we cleared out the Austin warehouse. I would've taken it for my own garage except that a new motor would've probably cost as much as the saw. Oh, well..

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Hi Erik,
I thought about getting rid of it this year when I bought a Grizzly G0514X2. That machine was so horrible, I sent it back. I couldn't keep anything on the table when it was running. SOOOOO glad I had not sold my S45. The drive belt is about to die, should replace it before it breaks in a job. I once took off the top guide and thrust bearing, to resaw a 12" board. I took my time, and got 3, 3/16" finished boards out of a 13/16" piece of curly soft maple. Wish I could justify a MM16. If I can I better hurry, I retire next year.

[Van Huskey]

Erik, thanks!!! Now I will ask a dozen questions and you can just pretend you never saw it if you don't have time to answer!

1. When did SCM first start bringing MM branded bandsaw into the US?
2. With the S45 when did it get the "N"
3. Do you remember the approximate year yellow, became green and then white?
4. When did the S45 get the current 12" of resaw?
5. When did it get the current 2.5hp motor?
6. Were there any other motors in btween this 50hz Samco and the current?
7. Anything to pay attention to (ie pattern issues) with the older ones?

I try to keep a mental history of the Italian saws since people often ask about the older ones and often there isn't an easy answer. I keep meaning to start a thread to gather as much info as possible from the owners of the various saws. With SCM/MM, Laguna, Agazzani, Felder, Meber, ACM et al as impotres/manufacturers there are a lot of saws out there!

TIA

[Erik Loza]

LOL, Van. Please see blue...

Erik Loza
Minimax USA



1. When did SCM first start bringing MM branded bandsaw into the US? 2001 were the first MM-spec Centauros into the US. The history of the MM16, et al, is a LONG story, for another post...
2. With the S45 when did it get the "N" 2005: The "N" is for "Nuovo", or "new" in Italian.
3. Do you remember the approximate year yellow, became green and then white? Late 80's, I think, is when green changed to gold. White would've been around 2000 or so.
4. When did the S45 get the current 12" of resaw? With the white version, if I recall correctly.
5. When did it get the current 2.5hp motor? With the "N" configuration.
6. Were there any other motors in btween this 50hz Samco and the current? Many, I think, but don't ask me which or when. CEG has been the predominant motor on most Minimax machinery since 2000.
7. Anything to pay attention to (ie pattern issues) with the older ones? No issues I am aware of that would be any different than any other older iron. The thing to know is that the vast majority of S45's sold in the US were sold through the dealer network, which is before there was a formal Minimax USA (2001). Ergo, I don't have any real records of them until a customer calls me and tells me they have one. The dealer network sold primarily to commercial shops rather than home woodworkers. So, unfortunately, most of them met un-timely deaths, as shop machines often do. Very rare are the cases where an owner bought the S45 for their home shop, as it sounds like Richard C. did, which is probably why his has lasted. Honestly, I think most of the S45's sold probably made pallets and crates for their entire lives.

That's why someone buys one at auction then it gives them problems. It's not that the machine was lemon but rather that it got beat up for its whole life and probably needs major work to get it cutting precisely again. If anything, the current S45N is lighter than the earlier versions but I never have problems with them, because they all go to home shops now that we have the Centauro saws for shops, and home ww'ers take care of their machines.

I try to keep a mental history of the Italian saws since people often ask about the older ones and often there isn't an easy answer. I keep meaning to start a thread to gather as much info as possible from the owners of the various saws. With SCM/MM, Laguna, Agazzani, Felder, Meber, ACM et al as impotres/manufacturers there are a lot of saws out there! That would be a fun thread. A lot of dirt could come out, LOL. I would be happy to fill in what blanks I could if you ever do that.

TIA

[Van Huskey]

Thanks so much Erik, I guarantee that information will be useful to people here at some point! I can't promise I won't bug you at IWF but I do promise I will wait until the crowds die down!

[Erik Loza]

Thanks so much Erik, I guarantee that information will be useful to people here at some point!

You know, funny you mention that. I have not really talked about it but I intend to launch my own website of Minimax product for exactly this reason. I can complain until I'm blue in the face to the bigwigs at corporate about how much they are (not) doing to give info to potential customers and owners but as they say, you can either keep bitching or just shut up and do something about it.

My wife and I just finished a major remodel to our house and we're still sort of "moving back in" but as soon as I get my feet under me, I'll get started on this new site. My wife is a user-interface designer by trade, so I'm going to have her build me the template and then I can populate it with info like what you and I have been discussing. A portal and knowledge base, if you will. I have a ton more images and data on the various Minimax machines that, for reasons we already discussed and know about, will likely never be seen on the Minimax USA website, and we have so much machinery out there that is seems a shame to have it just sitting there on my hard drive.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[James Conrad]

Well, I just may break down and buy new, looks like the 4400 is on sale for $2k. The S45N is about $2300 anyone know what the MM16 runs new?

[Sam Layton]

Van,

My saws are the two tone green. I can not remember how old they are, but they must be 15 plus years old. They were purchased from Eagle Tools. Both of my saws have 10" of resaw height. It would not be hard to modify the guides to gain another inch or so. I was thinking of the 3/4" RK. Van, do you think it will tension properly? I also want to add a stronger spring.

I am excited to get the Davis and Wells going.

Sam

[Erik Loza]

...anyone know what the MM16 runs new?

James, did you and I speak on the phone Thurs. or Friday? Your name sounds familiar. If you are interested in a new MM16, email me offline.

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Erik Loza]

I was thinking of the 3/4" RK. Van, do you think it will tension properly? I also want to add a stronger spring.

Sam, I'm not going to presume to answer for Van but in my experience, yes, a 3/4" carbide or stellite blade will tension fine on the S45. Regarding the spring, I did not feel the need for anything stronger than what the factory puts in there when I used a 3/4" Tri-master on the S45N but I cannot see that beefing up the spring would hurt, especially on an older model. Hope this helps,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Van Huskey]

Van,

My saws are the two tone green. I can not remember how old they are, but they must be 15 plus years old. They were purchased from Eagle Tools. Both of my saws have 10" of resaw height. It would not be hard to modify the guides to gain another inch or so. I was thinking of the 3/4" RK. Van, do you think it will tension properly? I also want to add a stronger spring.

I am excited to get the Davis and Wells going.

Sam

3/4" carbide blade should be just fine, the RK is a much easier tension than the Trimaster due to its thin gauge anyway. In any event Erik has personal experience with the Trimaster on that saw so although I didn't do the math but if it does a 3/4" Trimaster fine it would probably do a 1" RK fine as well, but I wouldn't bother to push it, but as you know I am a tension over width guy IF one must make a choice.

[James Conrad]

Hi Erik,

Email sent.

James

[Sam Layton]

Thank you Van and Erik for your response. I am going to try a RK and a stronger spring for good measure...

Thanks, Sam

[Van Huskey]

James, if you can stretch your budget for the MM16 you will never regret it, the Minimax Centauro built saws are absolutely the best saws in the medium size range you can buy.

[Erik Loza]

Hi Erik,

Email sent.

James

Check reply, thanks! ;)

[James Conrad]

Hi Van,

Rockwell machine info just in: Series # 28-3X0 Serial # 1810191, square machine white cover on upper wheel.

James

[Van Huskey]

Hi Van,

Rockwell machine info just in: Series # 28-3X0 Serial # 1810191, square machine white cover on upper wheel.

James


That machine is the evolution of the rounded slightly art deco Delta/Rockwell 28-350. The X indicates it was originally sold to government, usually a school but occasionally the military, etc. They are a welded steel saw in the mid-600 pound range designed as a cheaper alternative for schools and small cabinet shops that couldn't afford the larger cast iron saws of the day. 20" wheels (which are rather light), 13 inches of height under the guides and 12" under the guard, they have a nice high table which is excellent for patternwork (contour cutting) not so great for heavy resawing (unless you are over 6'). These saws usually came with larger motors than the previous generation but that is important to check some were sold with small motors, since it is an X model it almost certainly came stock with a 3ph motor, so check if that is an issue. If you need to remotor the machine check with me since there are a couple of caveats you need to understand when putting a new motor in this machine that are unique to it. It has a foot brake which may not be working but usually they simply require new friction material, you don't need to buy the ~$80 replacement, McMaster Carr sells friction material that works for about $10 and will reline the brake several times (a hobby lifetime). Note the footbrake does NOT have a micro-switch so it does not cut power when activated one could retrofit one if they wanted. Honestly I would plan to change the guides on the saw, it has a stacking J-plate guide system, that although it works fine most people don't like it and it is rare to get a full set of plates with a used saw.

They are great saws, I like the look of the older saws but functionally they are basically the same, plus people usually want more for the newer versions. Let me know if there is anything else.

PS they have a rather unique T-lok tire which is heavy rubber, easy to change out (no glue) but not so easy on the wallet, a pair is going to be over $150 last time I checked (but there may be cheaper sources) though they are easy to get. So factor this in if it need new tires.

[James Conrad]

Thanks for the info, from the pics I've seen it looks a bit rough compared to the s45. I would most likely remotor, something I've done on a few occasions - recently with a DJ-30.

[Van Huskey]

Thanks for the info, from the pics I've seen it looks a bit rough compared to the s45. I would most likely remotor, something I've done on a few occasions - recently with a DJ-30.

The 28-3X0 has a dual belt drive, the problem with remotoring is MOST of them had an odd sheeve bore size on the motor (rumor has it some of the later ones had a standard size). You can easily put a single sheeve and run it with one belt, the problem stems with trying to use 2 belts, the spacing of the belts is also non-standard so getting a motor sheeve with the correct spacing means either redrilling and old one to a larger more standard size and getting a motor to match OR having a sheeve fabricated. Just FYI. Bottom line is the easy fix, running a single belt, limits the amount of power you can transfer from the motor to the saw.

[David Kumm]

Van, a good VX belt will transfer all the power needed. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Van, a good VX belt will transfer all the power needed. Dave


Good point about a cogged belt. Anyone know of a power transmission chart for belts? They must exist I just haven't seen one.

[David Kumm]

All I know is that both my large shapers 9 and 10 hp both use only one belt. Dave

[Van Huskey]

All I know is that both my large shapers 9 and 10 hp both use only one belt. Dave

That would seem to cover most anything the average hobbyist would use! I knew Poly-V belts could carry that and more, I didn't know a cogged belt could. Learned something new AND useful today, the former I do most every day the latter is far more rare!

One other thing does the motor side have a larger than "average" sheeve? Sheeve size makes a BIG difference in potential power transmission, this is a subject I have been meaning to learn more about.

[David Kumm]

Actually the Felder runs a poly v, the T130 runs a vx, my scmi 9 hp saw runs two vx, the Knapp 6.2 hp runs a single VX on both the saw and shaper side. Belts are cheap enough I'm not sure why companies don't use the cogged. Dave

[Julian Tracy]

Here's my S45:
http://www.juliantracy.com/S45%20Bandsaw/source/image/saw_completed.jpg

I'm no bandsaw expert, but I have found it to have rather crude adjustments and features. Very smooth running though - mine has the 1.8HP motor. Mine had a purpose-built HTC mobile base for it that was a poor design as it got to be quite tippy. As such, seems it tipped over at some point and one of the trunnions was broken. I fabricated a repair for the trunnion and it's back in use, though if I was re-sawing 10" logs, I'd probably go for the OEM cast iron trunnion repair part.

There's a bit too much play in the blade guide height adjustment, enough so that every time you change it, you may need to re-adjust the rear thrust bearing. I'm not complaining as I paid $420 for mine due to it needing the repair. The date on the tag says 2002. The original switch had been changed out for a simple toggle, I changed that out to a cool looking heavy duty pushbutton switch, though it's not currently wired up so I simply use the on/off switch that's on the motor itself.

http://www.juliantracy.com/S45%20Bandsaw/source/image/nameplate.jpg
http://www.juliantracy.com/S45%20Bandsaw/source/image/trunnion_broken_originally1.jpg
http://www.juliantracy.com/S45%20Bandsaw/source/image/repair_showing_groove.jpg
http://www.juliantracy.com/S45%20Bandsaw/source/image/new_trunnion_installed.jpghttp://www.juliantracy.com/S45%20Bandsaw/source/image/cast_iron_wheels.jpg
http://www.juliantracy.com/S45%20Bandsaw/source/image/original_condition_back.jpg

[David Kumm]

Van, the motor side generally has the larger diameter pulleys in comparison to the drive side. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Van, the motor side generally has the larger diameter pulleys in comparison to the drive side. Dave

Dave I can't help but think in bandsaw terms... I should have said do they tend to use larger pulleys so the small one is actually larger than it HAS to be, meaning a lot of machines use the smallest set of pulleys possible for the drive ratios, wondering if the higher horsepower single belt machines you have do this to reduce losses and eliminate slip.

[Erik Loza]

Nice looking S45, Julian.

FYI, I don't believe that is a 2002 machine. Yes, it looks like a date code on that plate but I think that number is referring to something else. I have never seen an actual "production date" on the SCM tags. It's actually a part of that "AM" number. That looks more like mid-90's machine to me. The 2002 units should've been white in color. Nice looking saw, regardless.

Thanks for sharing,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Van Huskey]

Erik, whats this? Found it on eBay. I assume it is a pre-45 or just missing the 5? I am familiar with the S14, S15 and E16 but not an S4. Sad, I look at bandsaws for sell all over the country for fun, I don't NEED ANY more and there is only 3 or 4 I even want...

[Sam Layton]

Van, That is the color of mine. I will try and find my receipt, and see how old it is.

Julian, on my saw I have a angled support on the left side of the saw236021 to support it from tipping to the left. Without the support the saw is very tippy to the left. The support makes a big difference.

Sam

[James Conrad]

Well, its been over a month, so I thought an update would be good - The Winner is:

I found a late model and gently used MM20!

After a long road trip it now resides in my shop!

Thanks for all the input, had many emails and calls with Erik at MM and was really close to pulling the trigger on a brand new one but with relocating and starting the business over I just couldn't make the numbers work. So, now its going over the machine, sorting through all the blades and making the first cuts!

Thanks guys!
JC