Lee Valley announcement of a new steel for chisels and plane blades

[Mike Henderson]

Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen any discussion of the recent Lee Valley announcement of their new steel for chisels and plane blades. Or was that discussed quite some time ago? I know Rob Lee did some postings about a new steel some time back.

Anyway, any opinions on the announcement? I'd like to buy one of the chisels (when they're available) to see how the new steel holds up. It's not that I'm unhappy with the chisels I have now but if this new steel is a real advance I'll likely buy a set of chisels.

I don't know if this link is allowed, but here's (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/woodworking-hand-tools/veritas%E2%80%99s-new-pm-v11-steel-coming-soon?et_mid=564308&rid=233389068)a link to Chris Schwarz discussing the new steel.

Mike

[george wilson]

Someone else mentioned it,but his post was moved. To where I don't know,as I cannot access the page for some reason. I went to the LV site to read about it.

[Bruce Haugen]

For a good discussion, go to WoodCentral handtool forum.

[Dave Anderson NH]

The thread about the new steel was removed by me. The thread posted word for word from Chris Schwarz's blog the complete article on the PWW website. Used without permission, this is copyright infringement and is both a SMC Terms of Service (TOS) violation and a major legal no no. SMC can not allow that to happen since it opens the Creek to a lawsuit and it is just plain wrong.

I think this is a great topic for discussion but we have to do things legally.

[Mike Henderson]

Someone else mentioned it,but his post was moved. To where I don't know,as I cannot access the page for some reason. I went to the LV site to read about it.
I didn't know that LV had anything on their site about the new steel. Your post, George, caused me to go search and I found it here (http://www.pm-v11.com/Home.aspx).

Mike

[David Weaver]

It looks like an all around improvement from their testing, it appears to be better in chisels and plane irons than the standard stuff out there now, and according to them, sharpens similar to A2 in terms of difficulty.

We've been weeding through this on another forum, as another question is how does it grind?

It does appear on the surface to be an overall improvement, but if it my experience with HSS plane irons holds, don't expect it to be a 5 to 1 thing in plane irons vs. A2 in "regular wood". Something that does much better in abrasive stuff should still do better in regular wood, but just by a lower ratio (I saw derek said somewhere else he felt like it was lasting twice as long).

It won't be long before a few beginners register in the future and tell us that we can't do good work with anything less :p

[Derek Cohen]

Someone else mentioned it,but his post was moved. To where I don't know,as I cannot access the page for some reason. I went to the LV site to read about it.

George, that was probably me. I have posted the info below on WC as well, where the discussion came up.

I only have first hand experience of one PM-Vlll plane blade, which is used in a Veritas Small BU Smoother. This was put through a great deal of testing about 12 months ago (and then used on a regular basis ever since). On the basis of this I can state that, using Pro Shaptons, the PM-Vlll blade honed about as quickly as an A2 equivalent, and lasted about twice its duration planing abrasive Jarrah boards (yes, I stood there counting shavings).


I have not used PM-Vlll in chisels. The PM-Vlll was a late entry into the chisel testing conducted (that I was involved in) nearly 2 years ago. Steels included M4 and 3V, and the PM-Vlll was subsequently chosen above these. I did, however, use the PM-Vlll steel with a 25 degree bevel to shoot Jarrah endgrain later on. It held up very well. According to Rob Lee it can be used at 15 degrees ... which would make for an interesting paring chisel!


Don't forget the obvious - that steel and tools are two separate items. If you are already stocked for tools, then you will not be planning to add more, regardless of the steel composition of the new tools.


I do not plan to replace all my blades with PM-Vlll just because it is better (and it is). That would be silly. However, the next time I purchase a blade, it will definitely be made of PM-Vlll steel. It would be silly not to do so.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[bill tindall]

Chris's Blog.....He states an often make falsehood that the "higher performance" steels can not be sharpened to as keen an edge as traditional steels. Steve Elliott has convincingly shown that this statement is not correct (see his web site for data). A correct statement could be that these abrasion resistant steels aren't sharpened to a keen edge with traditional woodworking abrasives techniques. These steels, CPM 3V, M2, M4 etc, achieve their abrasion resistance by incorporation of extremely hard carbide particles, for example vanadium or tungsten carbide. If the abrasive is soft relative to these carbides it simply can not cut these carbides and the blade will not sharpen to a high degree. The simple and inexpensive solution is to use diamond abrasives. I use no more effort to sharpen these steels than others use for carbon steel. A $15 syringe of diamond will last many woodworkers a life time if used properly. The bottom line is you can't use modern steel technology without updating sharpening technology.

A word on the LV testing procedure. The test they used for plane blade wear is remote from practical wood planing. The material, relief angle and bedding angle are substantially different. LV has provided no data to show that the plane blade wear test has any relevance to predicting edge life for planing wood with a conventional plane such as a Stanley for example. Worrisome is the fact that the plane wear data show little correlation to the abrasive wear data in the sharpening results. Either abrasion resistance is not an important factor in edge life or the test is a flawed predictor.

I would add that some steels have relatively huge carbide particles and tools from such a steel may not sharpen well. However, the high quality versions of these steels have small carbide particles and they sharpen just fine if one is willing to choose an appropriate abrasive.

[george wilson]

It wasn't you,Derek,whose post was moved. Someone else.

[David Weaver]

I think it was johnny kleso

[george wilson]

I didn't want to name names!!:)

[David Weaver]

Oh...we know johnny well enough to know that he thought it's something we'd find interesting, and not that he was trying to break rules.

[James Taglienti]

I think the FBI already picked him up

[george wilson]

Federal Blog Investigators!!:)

[Will Blick]

Derek put this in perspective for me, thx Derek...
On the LV site, it shows the PMV to score 10 vs. 1 for A2, this would lead you to think, the PMV blade can be sharpened 1/10th with equal cutting integrity. Dereks test with real world plane strokes reveal more useful data for use in hand planes. 2x longer is significant indeed.

I always wondered why my A2 blades sharpened on Shapton ceramic waterstones dulled relatively quickly... its just the metal. First few strokes when sharpened to 15k-30k stones is like cutting butter, then it goes down hill pretty fast on hard woods. Then remains usable for some time before it must come out. Its that "ultra sharp" period that always seems tooo short.

[Gary Herrmann]

I gotta say one thing. I used to be a statistician, and now I'm a project manager. I never thought I would see a radar chart relating to my hobby. It's a good way to represent the findings, but it just struck me as funny somehow. Yeah, I am a geek.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm happy enough with most of my plane blades, but something that can last a little longer and take shallow angles, I'd like that for shooting edges. Now I'm wondering if any of the Veritas blades for bevel-up planes will fit in my Lie Nielsen jack. . .

[Will Blick]

Rob, what would be an ideal edge angle of a shooter with this new metal?

[Rob Lee]

Rob, what would be an ideal edge angle of a shooter with this new metal?

Hi Will -

Not sure that was directed at me, since I've not yet posted in this thread.... but will answer.... PM_V11 is quite "happy" at 20 degrees. I believe it will be fine lower than that - but we did not specifically test lower....

Cheers -

Rob Lee

[Will Blick]

ahhh, unless otherwise indicated "Rob" means you, Mr. Lee :-)

anyway, sounds great, I will be sure to try some at least for my shooters, where lowest angle always wins!

Will these be avail for sale soon?

[Rob Lee]

ahhh, unless otherwise indicated "Rob" means you, Mr. Lee :-)

anyway, sounds great, I will be sure to try some at least for my shooters, where lowest angle always wins!

Will these be avail for sale soon?


Hi Will -

Looks like the Veritas blades will start becoming available end of this month, and will be followed by chisels a few weeks later. We're still negotiating delivery (read begging) with the mill for our shipment of thinner plate for the Bailey style blades. We could possible grind some Bailey style blades from thicker stock - but it's wasteful (of material) and much more expensive (material, and machine time).

Cheers -

Rob

[Will Blick]

Great Rob, I look forward to trying them out! Its great to see all the R&D you spear-head to create new n improved ww products, kudos to you and your company.....

I use the Shapton Ceramic stones for sharpening your A1 blades. Shapton advertises a nice match with these ceramic stones and A2, IMO, I agree, they are a nice match ..... how does this new metal perform with the Shapton ceramic stones?

[Will Blick]

Rob, forgot.... since you and your staff have prob. sharpened more plane blades in a week than I have in a year.... what is your opinion for double bevel on plane blades (ruler trick)... i.e. a 2-3 deg back bevel.... do you find it makes re sharpening much faster vs. a flat back?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Will

I'll venture my opinion here.

A great deal of effort by LV has gone into producing blades with extremely flat backs (the flattest on the market by far). They do not need a Ruler Trick on the BD variety. Keep the back polished in the same way you polish the face, and you will be better than fine. With BU blades a Ruler Trick is a technique that may be used if you are concerned about the possible incursion of a wear bevel developing on the back. The RT will create a micro back bevel exactly where the wear bevel would develop, thereby forestalling it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Will -

Looks like the Veritas blades will start becoming available end of this month, and will be followed by chisels a few weeks later. We're still negotiating delivery (read begging) with the mill for our shipment of thinner plate for the Bailey style blades. We could possible grind some Bailey style blades from thicker stock - but it's wasteful (of material) and much more expensive (material, and machine time).

Cheers -

Rob
Put me down for a 3/8" chisel. I want to try the new material. Can I pre-order?

Mike

[Rob Lee]

Rob, forgot.... since you and your staff have prob. sharpened more plane blades in a week than I have in a year.... what is your opinion for double bevel on plane blades (ruler trick)... i.e. a 2-3 deg back bevel.... do you find it makes re sharpening much faster vs. a flat back?

Hi Will -

Here's my cop-out answer.... :)

The goal of any sharpening practice, or regimen, should be to produce consistent and repeatable results - ideally, as fast as possible, and producing as keen an edge as possible. There is nothing wrong with using a back bevel - it's a different approach, and one that works well. The two surfaces that the wood "sees" both wear - bevel-up, or bevel-down.

My personal preference is to polish the backs of blades, as this is how I sharpen chisels as well - just makes things consistent. I do use the ruler trick on older tools, or tools where putting a full polish on the back would be time intensive.

As for PM-V11 and Shaptons - there will be no problem...!

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

Put me down for a 3/8" chisel. I want to try the new material. Can I pre-order?

Mike

Hi Mike -

I'm sure I could work something out....

Right now - the first size has just gone to heat treat, and the machine shop is still running blanks, so we haven't been able to fix pricing - we still have to watch our yeild. I would expect that we'd know more in a few weeks. If you want to shoot me an email directly ( rlee@leevalley.com), I'd be glad to work something out with you.

Cheers -

Rob

[Bruce Mack]

Ummm...one more day left in the month. Rob??

Hi Will -

Looks like the Veritas blades will start becoming available end of this month, and will be followed by chisels a few weeks later. We're still negotiating delivery (read begging) with the mill for our shipment of thinner plate for the Bailey style blades. We could possible grind some Bailey style blades from thicker stock - but it's wasteful (of material) and much more expensive (material, and machine time).

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

Ummm...one more day left in the month. Rob??

Hi Bruce...

Won't be long now... fall catalogue will be mailed at the end of August, and chisels and plane blades are all in there.

Just have to review final costing when I get back in the office next week....!

Cheers -

Rob
(antiqued out, after a very wet Avoca auction.....!)

[Bruce Mack]

Thanks Rob. I'm looking forward to trying the new 38(?) degree blade on your low angle smoother. I've used the Veritas steel honing plates freehand with success. Sharpening feels natural. I thank you for these helpful accessories.

[David Weaver]

Make sure you hire Joe Isuzu to help with the prices!

(of course, I don't know if that will resonate with Canadians, assuming the advertisements may not have run there)

[Lex Boegen]

I have a browser tab open to the low-angle Veritas block plane, and hit refresh every day hoping to see them listed with the new steel.As soon as I do, I'll be ordering one.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Placed two orders with them since I first heard about this...... Keep checking to see what is offered since I had a few things I wanted to buy....