Grizzly Chokes!

[Jay Albrandt]

Remember Grizzly Comes Through? WELL FORGET IT!



All Grizzly had to do was send me a small key and a small roll pin and after 4, going on 5 months to get this jointer in service, they failed again!

I've had it, and I took alot of your previous comments to heart! Yes, I had to solve their problem for them, and keep calling THEM to follow up on stuff they should have been doing as part of their customer service......BUT, my requests were not outrageous, I just wanted ONE part that was square. One small part and the machine would be serviceable. I don't thinik that is too much to ask is it? I'm a really patient guy, I think I proved that by giving them four chances to get it right.

I have never ranted about a machine....ever! But you know what the REAL KICKER IS?

They have the nerve to try the "big corporation against the little hobbiest" thing and tried to refuse my demand that I return the machine for a full refund. Now keep in mind that this jointer was purchased in December 02, and to this day has never been used (with the exception of some test cuts after assembly) due to the fence being taken apart and waiting for replacement parts!

I have 5 pages of type written notes summurizing the phone conversations that I initiated (read, "on my dime") about this machine, and they question my request for a refund???

Grizzly said that they will "inspect the machine when it is returned and determine at that point if the machine is in "new condition" because unless it is, they can't offer a full refund because they can't resell it". THEY ACTUALLY SAID THAT! Buyer beware! This machine has never been in service because of their poor quality controls, so first I pay, but then potentially someone else will pay when it is resold! Unbelieveable!

I better stop here before I am black-balled from the sight. Thank you for listening (reading). I feel better now, and maybe I'll be able to go to to sleep.

So, I am in the market for a new 8" jointer, and I'm taking all recommendations.

Remember!! If you want a real machine....stay away from the Green!

Peace

Jay

[John Miliunas]

Jay, I really feel for you. At the same time I'm very grateful for your post, as I've been looking at jointers for quite some time now. I, for one, would hate to have spent many months looking and researching and then spend another almost 5 months looking at the machine I chose without being able to use it! It seems as though it would have been so very easy for them to have a satisfied customer, but they chose not to. I've never made a big purchase from Grizzly, but they didn't even carry through my small order in a professional manner. Still, after reading so many "success stories" from them, I was considering their new 8" jointer (w/the four knife setup). For me, it was down to either, the Grizz (not anymore!) or the Bridgewood from Wilke Machinery.

Mind you, I've never used or even seen the Bridgewood, but I do have a Bridge DC and also purchased a Yorkcraft lathe from Wilke. On their Bridgewood line, most all of their better WW machines come with a US built motor and they are setup at their facility for QA purposes. As it happens, the 8"er is on sale as I write this. I've been extremely happy with the freight carrier they use, as well. And, even though I had a slight issue with the lathe order, they made it right. I also needed to return a chuck I didn't really care for and the cost of the piece was returned to my credit card before they even received the return! Their Customer Service ranks right up there with LV and Jet. Personally, Wilke is on my "short list" for just about any power tool I'm researching.

There are a lot of choices out there. Good luck in whatever you choose. :cool:

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

I had a similar experience with a Grey RAS. It's been a year ago, so I'll just call it a "Grey" one. I understand your need to rant.

I was looking at the same Green 8" jointer. I will take another poll when the time comes. I'll be interested in seeing the replies to this thread and any further recommendations for 8" jointers.

The price on the green one seems hard to match.

[Ken Garlock]

Last year on the Pond, there was a very favorable discussion regarding the Sunhill jointers. The Sunhill 8" cost less, has a longer table, and larger motor than the 8" Bridgewood. (This is only a spec comparison, nothing against Bridgewood.) There is a review of the Sunhill 6" jointer over on the Pond archives at WC.

I don't know the details of your defective parts, but I would think that with some looking around town, you might be able to find suitable replacements.

I have had only one experience with Grizzly customer service and it was pleasant. They replaced a grinder which had a bent shaft, most likely done in shipping to me. Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I would think that the documentation of the machine would include an exploded view of the machine and a parts list with parts numbers from which you could order replacement parts. Maybe I am asking too much....

[Phil Phelps]

...Jay, this is too simple to be this aggravating. My Griz jointer had been dropped and the fence plate was broken. New jointer in two days. You must be dealing with a disgruntled, lazy employee. All you need are two parts that could be stuffed in an envelope? This is crazy. You pay by credit card? That is where I would have begun after the service dept. gave me the run-around. I've even had great experience with their service department. Talked to a rep that guided me in the right direction. I'll bet he would have sent you the part. A really bizaare situation. I'd stay on their case. This is stupid on their part. Follow up, please. We'd like to know the final outcome.

[Terry Hatfield]

Jay,

Bill Croufutt(billcrofutt@grizzly.com) is a Grizzly exec. that surfs the forums. I have never seen him post here but he has solved other Grizzly problems in the past. I have emailed him your trouble. This is not normal for Grizzly service. I have no idea what is going on but hopefully Bill will chime in and get something done about this ASAP.

Terry Hatfield

[john lawson]

I take exception that "this is not normal for Grizzly service". I mentioned that I had a problem with Grizzly on a service part but did not explain what it was. Here goes.

I had a G1019 bandsaw and a part on the tension device broke. When I tried to order one the first service rep told me it was no longer available due to a design change. They sent me a part off of a different model which I had to modify to make work, sort of. I was able to get my saw running but the part did not fit correctly. I thought about this for awhile and then decided that Grizzly just had not provided me with good service. I wrote them a long email and gave them the particulars. Turns out the part was available, but it cost me $25.00 to get the part and have it shipped. I have been in diecasting for a number of years and would estimate that the cost of the part, made in the U.S. might be $2.00 or $3.00. I thought the price was outrageous but I did not have another choice. This took place over several months and involved several people at Grizzly. One of the technicians was knowlegeable and courteous. The others were hopeless and not at all helpful.

Grizzly has some good products and some good manufacturing operations, but they are inconsistent. That is where customer service should come in, to fix problems and salvage bad situations and turn them into wins for everyone. This points to a lack of a strong corporate culture around service and a lack of awareness on the strengths and weakness of their business. They are also starting to exhibit signs of greediness, especially in situations regarding new equipment that is unservicable.

Too bad, they will either learn and change or a competitor will change them (they will get smaller).

john

[Terry Hatfield]

John,

I should have said "not normal as far as my dealings with Grizzly service".

Terry

[Bob Boake]

A credible complaint about a company and a tool provides details. If a part is off spec, please identify which part. Other grizz jointer owners in particular have an interest in this.
What was wrong when you recieved it. What has been repaired/replaced and what repairs are still needed. What was the condition of the replacement parts?

I don't know what the "Big Corp against the little hobbiest thing" means.

It seems like repacking and returning a mchine wo authorization when all it takes is a key and roller pin is overly dramatic.
Best of luck in resolving your problems with grizzly.

Since you were soliciting opinions about replacement tools you might try to purchase a tool available from a local retailer.

[Scott Coffelt]

I have bought several tools and other items from them. On two occasions I needed to get service. (1) I ordered a 12" disk sander and the thing was damaged in shipment somewhere alond the line. I could have easily fixed the damage (bent housing and a defective miter slot. I called expecting a new part to be delivered, instead I received a brand new unit and a mail return label. (2) I ordered a replacement switch for another tool (not a Grizzly) and when I installed it the part did not work. Now keep in mind it could have been me who damaged the switch during installation. Grizzly sent out a new switch. Granted these are fairly inexpensive items, but the several was excellent.

I appreciate your sharing of an experience. You may never buy a Grizzly again, but personally I will. They make great tools, yes sometimes a bad tool will be sold. But I guarantee they aren't the only ones. I was not present at your interactions with them, so I do not know how the tone of the conversation went, but I can tell you friendliness usually gets a better response than anger. Would I be angery if I was in your shoes...Oh yes.

I would try a different approach, get a manager or someone else (if not already) and politely explain the issue. It may work or it may not. I hope you can get this worked out for a small priced part, because the Grizzly tools really are good.

Good Luck.

[Steve Clardy]

Only had to call them once on something that wasn't quite right.
1023 saw
24 drum sander
20 planer
power feeder
2 nail guns
1 staple gun

When I purchased the 20" planer, it had a shaft that kept working its way out of the casting. I called and explained the problem, and I received the parts in 2 days. Even though that did not fix the problem and I figured out how to fix it another way, I have been happy with their equipment and service.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Maybe Terry will help you out there. Bill will take care of the problem, I've talked to him before. If I remember correctly He is an advid woodworker and usually keeps up on machinery problems and fixes.

[Paul Dwight]

This thread seems to have morphed into a discussion of Grizzly, which may be helpful to others with their own future purchases but doesn't address Jay's question about 8" jointers.

Two weeks ago I finished assembling my new Delta "Professional" model 8" jointer -- the one with the rack-and-pinion fence adjustment and the high-mounted switch. (Can't recall the model number.) I used it a little last weekend, including face jointing and edge jointing an 8' board. Overall, I'm very happy with the machine. It runs smooth and quiet, holds its adjustments, and straightens and flattens boards like it's supposed to. I was also very impressed with the way it was packed. Looks pretty impressive sitting in the shop, too.

I do have a couple of reservations. It's just a 1-1/2 HP motor with single belt drive. It will be interesting to see how it does face-jointing 8" of something hard. Second, I was a little disappointed in the fit of some of the castings -- although NONE of the problems I'm about to discuss affect the operation of the machine in the slightest. As noted above, the machine works well. It's more of an aesthetic thing, I guess. Anyway, the parts in question are mounts for the fence. With the holes lined up and the parts bolted together, the edges of the castings don't quite line up. No problem in terms of how the tool functions, but a little disappointing in a $1000 tool.

I just got my $100 rebate check in the mail earlier this week. Took them a while, but Delta paid as promised. After the rebate, I think I paid about $950 from a local dealer.

I probably would have bought the Bridgewood, but the cost to ship it from Wilke to me in Arizona killed the deal. With shipping, the Bridgewood would have cost as much as a DJ20 purchased locally or from Amazon (with free shipping). If you're closer to Wilke, though, the Bridgewood looks like a great buy. Also worth considering would be the 8" Yorkcraft sold by Wilke, which is the same Chinese-made jointer body as my Delta, but with a Chinese-made motor instead of the Delta's U.S.-made motor.

Hope this helps. Good luck, whatever you decide. -- Paul

[Dave Arbuckle]

It's just a 1-1/2 HP motor with single belt drive. It will be interesting to see how it does face-jointing 8" of something hard.

Food for thought, Paul. Twelve and thirteen inch portable planers have lighter duty motors than this, and seem to do just fine. ;)

Dave
[edit]spel cheking

[Keith Outten]

Jay,

I have purchased six major machines from Grizzly and I don't know how many router bits, blades and other accessories. Two of the major machines I purchased had major problems to resolve. On the first machine, a planer, the problem was corrected quickly. The second machine is still unsatisfactory, I have already written a message here at SMC concerning the nasty details of my 24" drum sander.

My experience with Grizzly is much like others who have had probems with their equipment. Grizzley does have a few tools that are fantastic values, and some that aren't. In the furure I will base all purchase decisions involving Grizzley on the reviews of other woodworkers. I just can't afford another bad experience with a machine that is just too expensive to return due to shipping costs.

I sincerely hope that a Grizzly representative will join SawMill Creek and offer to assist our members when they have problems with their machinery. Grizzly does have some very good machines and some border on being great woodworking equipment like their 1023 saws and the 15" planer they sell.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Obviosuly, you're not gonna want another Grizzly jointer...but I still think it's a helluva deal and a fine machine. We've not had any problems whatever with ours at the mesquite outfit, and it sits on a patio and gets used hard. Somebody's gonna get a lemon now and then (we have a lemon 1023 tablesaw, for that matter)...but they certainly haven't handled your problem very well from the beginning. For what it's worth, the 'we'll decide if it's really broke/like new' when it gets here' is normal (for them)...we had a switch replaced on the 1023 under warranty and they wouldn't send the part out until we sent in the old one, at our expense.

KC

[Bob Boake]

If they were to send out replacement parts on verbal request alone then they would see their warranty parts expense skyrocket as they would be buying switches, and motors and bearings for every tool in the shop.

If you buy an alternator or starter for your car and it goes bad would you expect a parts store to offer a replacement without you bringing in the old one for a bench test? Why should grizzly be any different?

One policy many companies use in your situation is they will take a credit card number as a deposit. If you return a bad part to them within thirty days there is no charge. If the part is good or you never return the bad unit you are charged for the part. If they don't have that option it should be put in place. All return policies are not created equal, however they are in writing and available.

Extremely liberal return policies are expensive. The main selling point of Grizzly tools is that they are cheap. I have never ordered a grizzly tool but I have worked a lot with claims. You wouldn't believe the amount of fraud. Sad but true.

[Jimmy Tallent]

SHOULD OF BOUGHT A DELTA UNISAW!

[Bill Crofutt]

I read the notes on the phone conversations with our people and looked at the invoices of parts sent and those notes. I can see how things were "messed up" and I apolgize for that. I don't know what has turned you around from your recent post praising us, but I bet I can fix it. If you want to email me directly, I will personally get this taken care of quickly.

[Bill Crofutt]

In the post by Mr. Lawson, he mentions spending 25 dollars for a 2-3 dollar part. I believe (according to our records) here are the parts that were ordered. If you compare these prices to others, I am sure we are much less.

P1019019 Upper Wheel Shaft Hinge $7.50
P1019022 Upper Wheel Shaft $5.00
P1012017 Upper Wheel Sliding Bracket $10.00
Plus shipping.

If you were charged differently, please let me know.

[Phil Phelps]

Originally posted by Jimmy Tallent
SHOULD OF BOUGHT A DELTA UNISAW!
Are you saying that you should have bouht one, Jimmy?

[Dave Arbuckle]

(whispers)hey, phil. you got any idea why jimmy there thinks a delta unisaw would make a good jointer? ;)
(whisper off)

Dave

[Steve Clardy]

Originally posted by Dave Arbuckle
(whispers)hey, phil. you got any idea why jimmy there thinks a delta unisaw would make a good jointer? ;)
(whisper off)

Dave

WOW!! Hey Dave, fill me in here. You mean maybe I could sell my cabinet saw and jointer and get a unisaw and use it for both? Is this what Jim means?

Couldn't pass this one up, the devil made me do it.;)
Steve

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Bob...I understand your point...to a point. In the case I mentioned, we were out of business until we got the new switch, which I'll repeat was a warranty replacement...and as I recall, a $20 part? We purchased the 1023ZX, the 1033 20" planer, the 1018 8" jointer and the 1029 dust collector at the same time. While an argument can be made that our large purchase has nothing to do with the issue of the switch replacment, I think we might've spent enough money to deserve a bit of latitude in the policy...

And thanks to Bill for answering the original post...

KC

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

While I agree there is good and bad in almost everything in today's somewhat goofy world, I wanted to relate my experience in dealing with Grizzly. I have had nothing but positive dealings with the "Big Green". I haven't placed tons of orders, but I have dealt with them on some big ticket items, and some small items too. I have always had excellent packaging, quick delivery, and the products were as advertised and have never disappointed me. I think given the tremendous volume they deal in, problems are bound to happen from time to time, and that is understandable. It still doesn't excuse the customer service department from dropping the ball now and then, but everyone deserves a second chance. At least you are able to talk with a real person when you contact Grizzly, which is more than I can say for many other companies doing business today. I firmly believe that contacting the right person, and given the opportunity to resolve the problem, is foremost in the minds of those in charge at Grizzly. I know it can get frustrating, but in matters such as these, cool heads really do prevail, and usually the problems are resolved quicker too. ;)

[Keith Outten]

Thanks to Bill Crofutt of Grizzly for joining SawMill Creek and responding to this thread. We appreciate his efforts and encourage other equipment manufacturers and sales outlets to get involved with our community.

Bill, as you are our 1000th member we would like to offer you a free SawMill Creek hat and a special welcome to SawMill Creek from all 999 of our other charter members.

Thanks Again!

[Kevin Post]

Originally posted by Bill Crofutt
...I will personally get this taken care of quickly.

It's nice to see Bill is willing to take a hands-on approach and fix this personally. It says a lot that he is willing to read the posts here and get involved. It's too bad Jay got the run-around from the people in Customer Service who were supposed to take care of this in the first place.

I've considered purchasing machines from Grizzly but this is precisely the type of thing that has made me decide against it. With my luck, I'd end up with a lemon and then spend hours on the phone trying, unsuccessfully, to convince someone on the other end to make it right.

I have mostly Jet and Delta equipment. About half of the big tools I've purchased have had some type of major defect (yes, half). I guess this sort of thing happens with all manufacturers but it seems to happen much too frequently, in my opinion. ( That was a little jab at you, Bill and all the other QC guys out there who might be reading this. )

The better vendors differentiate themselves by fixing problems with a minimum of frustration. Things would also improve greatly if manufacturers would do more to avoid shipping tools with warped castings, bad motors, etc. So far (knocking on wood), either the local dealer or the manufacturer has handled the problems efficiently and without raising my blood pressure. Let's hope Jay's is under control shortly. Let us know how it goes...

-Kevin

[Perry Schmidt]

Glad to see Bill contributing here. Thanks for your expert info. I rather hope a Delta and Jet rep would also contribute - hope they do someday.

Being a cost concious hobbiest I have a lot of Grizzly, with a smattering of Delta and Jet. I have to say I'm very happy w/ all of them. Has all my experiences been good?? No. Most have been good and my bad experiences are not the norm. That's why I'll keep going back.

I don't think I've ever dealt w/ a company for any product/service over time where there hasn't been SOME problem or difficulty in dealing w/ the company and/or product. The question I always ask is this the exception or the norm. Or (as happened in the past) is it becoming the norm. I will grant you I've heard more complaints recently about Grizzly, but I'm still not convinced that this is becoming the norm for them. It's just a bigger sample set of experiences. So far I've been very happy w/ their products and how they've dealt w/ problems. And until they routinely screw up, I'll still buy Grizzly - and hope to do so again at the end of the year w/ a NEW BANDSAW :)

My 2 cents.

Perry

[David Ripley]

When all else fails, close your eyes and punt!

[Jay Albrandt]

Thank you to all who have responded to my post. I appreciate your input about your experiences with Grizzly, good or bad.

Bob Boake mostly, and others, made me realize that my rant post really did not give enough information to be fair. This is not JUST about a $2.00 key and roll pin.

I did 6 months of research prior to making this purchase, and despite the 50/50 reviews that are out there about Grizzly, I decided to give them a shot. The jointer arrived before the holidays, and because of that and a ski trip, I wasn't able to assemble it and test it until the middle of Jan. 03. Test cuts after assembly were good, but the fence was riding ON the table and scratching it... which was no big deal because it can be raised. The original and on going problem with the jointer is that the fence will not stay square when it is moved to a different position in relation to where it was originally squared. Example, square fence at back of tables (face jointing), move fence forward (edge jointing) fence is now out of square. I called Grizzly about the problem and their solution was to shim the fence support to keep the fence square. No problem! Work and life occur and can't get to garage for 2 weeks. While shimming part, using feeler guage and nice LV straight edge, discover that fence support (part #33 for those of you who have the jointer) is warped. Called Grizzly, and explained that the suggested fix will not work. Grizzly agrees to send new part with the corresponding key and roll pin. Part arrives 8 business days later. Cleaned and checked replacement part (#33) it is warped worse than original. Call Grizzly, speak with different rep (first one was busy) and explain the problem on 2-26-03. He will have "someone talk to me by email or phone about this problem this week". In the mean time, I take fence apart to experiment thinking that I can shim fence base (part #20, the part that glides on #33) to nullify the warp. During this, I discover that part #20 is also warped, (rocks when placed on jointer table).

No word from Grizzly by 3-6-03 so I call them. Another tech suggests I shim the part. Long explanation occurs, and the tech puts me on hold to talk to machinest. "Machinest needs to know which way the fence becomes out of square when it is moved". Tech asks me to reassemble the fence and fence support and call him back with this information! . I do what he asks, he puts me on hold again for several minutes to talk with machinest. He and machinest agree that both parts need to be replaced. Grizzly sends new #33 fence support and #20 fence base. Parts arrive 9 business days later.

Replacement parts arrive. Both parts are from OLD GENERATION jointers. They are both different colors from my machine, but I don't care. The fence support #33, is not ground very smooth, but hey it is flat, (no warp) but it is still not square to the table. Cool, not a problem because I can shim it accurately. Only problem with the fence support, (and a small problem at that) is that since it was from an earlier machine, the roll pin hole is considerably larger, and the replacement ones I was sent will not fit. HOWEVER, the fence base #20 does not even fit my machine. I can't attach my fence to it, and even if I could, it is warped just like the original anyway.

3-24-03. Called Grizzly and spoke with a Tech that seemed to care. He asked for another chance to fix the problem. I told him that the last #33 fence support was ugly because of the color and the poor surface, (I was kidding him) but I wanted to keep it because it was flat and could be shimmed well. I did ask for a new "old" generation key and roll pin to fit the "old" fence support. I also requested a different fence base #20 since the last one won't even fit my machine, and I request that it is checked for flatness prior to shipping. He said he would send the key, roll pin and new #20

4-21-03 Two weeks to the day and no parts yet. I call Grizzly. Asked about status of parts and Grizzly confirms they haven't been shipped yet. I understand that checking fence base or doing something to it prior to shipping may take longer, but I ask to talk to manager. Manager says she has to look in to it and will get back to me. No message or call from Grizzly for three days. I call Grizzly. Manager says someone did try to call. She will have a Tech call me later today. Grizzly calls me for first time! Tech confirms that the only part sent was #20 fence base, no key or roll pin. I asked on the chance that they sent a different #33 to take care of the key and roll pin issue...No.

I ask to talk to the manager again. Tech puts me on hold three times in an attempt to get manager. In between holds, he asks me to review the problem with him so he can try to fix it. I go through whole history. I tell him that all I want is an "old" key and corresponding roll pin to fit the "old" generation #33, and that I am waiting for a fence base #20. He reviewed with me the dimensions of the key and roll pin, and even checked to see that these parts were in stock. They were. He is very apologetic, and I ask for some link belts for the jointer for my problems. He says no problem. He will send all parts 2nd day air.

4-25-03 New fence base #20 that was asked for on 3-24-03 arrives. It is flat, it is from a new machine, and it fits. Great!

4-28-03 Package arrives. No key, no roll pin, no belts. It contains a different #33 (wasn't asked for because I wanted to keep the old one) and a different #20 (also not asked for and really beat up). Just out of curiousity, I check the most recent #33 to see if it is flat so I can use the original key and roll pin. It is warped just like the original.

So far, I have an old style #33 that is ground poorly but I like it because it can be shimmed. I asked for a key and roll pin to fix it, and Grizzly confirmed they were on the shelf, but they have been unable to get it to me. I have a good and flat fence base that my fence does fit. So after 4 fence supports, and three fence bases, I still don't have a functional machine.

Each and everytime I called Grizzly I did my best to calmly, and professionally decribe my problems. I was friendly and courteous to the best of my ability, (yes I did get heated once, I admit, but by no means was I disrespectful.)

4-30-03 I call Grizzly and talk to customer service, ask for a manager and ask for a refund. I discussed the issues, and the history. She said she will look into it and call me back. One hour later she calls. She said I cannot receive a refund because it is past the 30 day window from the date of purchase (hince my comment about how the big corporation tries to intimidate the hobbiest, forgive my tone about this on my previous rant, but that was my impression). I explain that no where in my documentation, owners manual, or on there website at the time of purchase was this window disclosed. She says that Grizzly can only offer repair or replacement. I say the Grizzly has had ample opportunity to "repair" given the number of parts on my garage floor, and that a replacement (based on the quality or the parts) is likely to have the same problems. She says the jointer must be in the original packaging to return it. I stated that the original packaging was busted up from transport, one end of the jointer was actually sticking out of the crate and the pallet under the crate was broken (and yes this damage was noted on the shipping receipt). The shipping materials were dismantled and thrown away, like anyone would do, expecting that a serviceable machine just arrived. She then said that the jointer had to be in "new" condition in order for me to receive a full refund, and this would be determined by Grizzly when the machine was received by them. I told her that my impression of what would likely happen is, that I would go to the trouble of crating and sending this thing back and Grizzly would look at it and say that it "was within their tolerances" and either refuse my
refund, and or, send it back to me with a shipping charge. She would not, nor was she willing to go any further with this issue. It was simply, "return the machine, and we will authorize a refund when the machine is deemed resellable". She gives me a return number and says instructions to contact the carrier will come in the mail.

So, there you have it. That is when I lost it and had to post my rant on the Creek.

Thank you to Terry Hatfield for referring this to Grizzly. When I got home this morining there was a call on my answering machine, and I saw that someone from Grizzly joined The Creek and wants to help me with this issue. I will be responding to those messages next.

I hope that gives you better insight into this issue, and that you don't think this whole mess is just a misunderstanding, or that I was inappropriate with my conversations, or requests when dealing with Grizzly.

I will post the final resolution when it comes around.

Peace

Jay

[Dale Sherman]

Jay, after reading your post, it appears that Grizzly customer service is about the same as when I bought my 18" bandsaw in 1988(?). The table rocked in the trunnion cradle, quite badly at that. After several replacements, it was obvious that the cradle surface needed to be machined, not left as a rough casting.

I finally took the cradle to machinist friend who put a nice smooth curved machined surface on it for $75. It has worked fine ever since.

I have not bought another Grizzly product since. My view is that Grizzly offers a decent product for the price. But to get the price as low as they do, they cut a lot of corners, sometimes too much. Some aspects of quality control are too low for the machine to even be useable.

My bandsaw has a lot of shortcomings, but for the price, I'm happy with it. When I can afford it, I'll get an Agazzani in whatever brand I find at a good price with good service. The newer Grizzly bandsaws look like the Agazzani, but I doubt I would get another Grizzly.

A friend of mine bought a corral full of Grizzly woodworking tools. He's happy with them. But he went down to the PA warehouse, checked them over closely before bringing them home. And because he works metal for a living, he was able to resolve any fit problems with minimal effort.

I expect with Bill Crofutt of Grizzly involved, you'll get a satisfactory resolution to your problem.

Dale Sherman, awaiting the closure to the jointer saga.

[Dave Richards]

Jay seems to have clearly explained what the problem is with his Grizzly jointer. I hope Bill can and will quickly solve the problem for him.

Perhaps Bill might also be able to explain why it has been so hard to get properly machined parts. Jay isn't the only one who has had problems with warped castings. (It isn't just Grizzly supplying warped castings, either.) I would be interested in hearing why it seems so difficult for manufacturers to deliver machined castings that are flat. This issue comes up quite frequently.

[Bill Crofutt]

Clearly we made mistakes working with Mr. Albrants. And this, despite our best efforts and intentions, will probably not be the last time something like this happens. It’s important to note we continued to send out parts (albeit with problems) continuing to support our valued customer and tried as best we could to make him satisfied. At no time did we stop supporting him. Actually, in February Mr. Albrants posted on this web site stating his jointer was working perfectly and praised our service. I don’t know what happened since then to change his mind.

We have changed considerable over the last 10 years. We grew from a relatively small company to a major force in the industry employing hundreds of Americans. Our quality has improved immensely, no doubt due to the total commitment to quality we now have. We employ 16 engineers in 3 countries, have Quality Control Departments in all locations and have set some of the strictest standards in the business. We have our machines tested by OUR inspectors on OUR payroll during and after assembly at the factories. I too make very frequent trips to the factories and they are well aware of our strict standards. But, we are all humans and despite our efforts there will always be mistakes. And, due to the complexity of the machinery, the ordering process and the customer support processes there are many opportunities to make them. Not to say we don’t try to eliminate mistakes, but anyone who says they never make mistakes…well, you know.

Any way, I normally like to keep all this “stuff” behind the scene but in this case do the all the attention I thought it best to make our solution public.

The choices are:
1). Return the machine to have the parts installed and checked then returned.
2). Accept a new machine double-checked by ME before shipping.
3). Return machine for a full refund.
4). Send the parts needed after being well checked.

Whatever Mr. Albrant chooses, we hope to keep him as a customer.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

With the options Bill has offered, I can't see anything but a good end-result.

We've all been a situation that required walking a mile to go around the block at some point in our 'consumer' lives, and I think this thread should have a happy ending...regardless of which way Jay chooses to proceed. Thanks again, Bill for responding and 'stepping' up.

KC

[John Miliunas]

Just for the record, earlier on in this thread I really had nothing too nice to say about Grizzly, either. My experiences, albeit very minor in comparison, had been similar to Jay's and I was truly going to "write Grizz off" as a possible choice for tools. I can't for sure say my next purchase will be from them, but Bill has restored, at least, some of my faith in a company which certainly has grown a LOT over the years. I guess if I really analyze it, such growth has to be more than just slick marketing and price point. Yeah, it helps, but there has to be more meat to it somewhere inside.

As an added argument for me to reconsider, I dropped Bill a personal email last evening, making a rather minor request. Bill answered me first thing this morning, at length, and is in the process of correcting the situation! Pending the final outcome of Jay's jointer saga, I may be very tempted to give them a "go". As usual, just MHO. :cool:

[Bart Leetch]

Some day I'm going to meet this Bill Crofutt guy. I just miss him every time I go up to Bellingham. 1 time I even saw him having his lunch break setting out in his truck in the parking lot. But I have a rule never to interupt a man having his lunch break.

[Keith Outten]

Alright!

Lots of choices for Jay to make and very reasonavble as well.

As I stated in an earlier post Grizzly has some very good equipment so writing them off as a possible vendor can be a very seroius mistake. My 15" planer (11 years old) is just about worn out and believe me it doesn't owe me a penny. I have run enough lumber through the planer to build a couple of arks for Noah. I own the 8" joiner (10 years old) and it was perfect right out of the box and still is right on the money. I have their 10" 1023 table saw (10 years old) and it must be one of the original models...works like a champ and runs as smooth as any saw I have ever seen. I have a Grizzly DC, bandsaw, mill/drill and the new radial drill.

Now my drum sander is another story but it's probably 9 years old and it's too late to ask Bill for help. I do feel better about Bill jumping in the fire here and taking good care of Jay. I think everyone here will agree that his offer is very generous.

We would all be very lucky to see any other manufacturers representatives join us here at the Creek. I know that there are at least two members who are in fact managers of large companies but they have not announced themselves publicly here so I must protect their privacy. It's a good thing that the big boys are watching though, it shows that they at least are interested.

[Jay Albrandt]

Bill Crofutt,

Thank you for the generous offers. I choose to return the jointer for a full refund.

And since we have the gloves off...

For the record. My original post dated Feb. 25-03 pertaining to this jointer states NOTHING about being satisfied with the jointer, or "that it was working perfectly??! In fact, the title of the post is "New Jointer Fence Won't Stay Square." I recommend all to look up the post and see for yourself.

In fact, at that point, I think I was showing good faith by not dislosing the company's name until I knew more. I think there are a few regulars here (9 to be precise) that can back me up about this because I emailed them privately more than once about this issue, simply so I wouldn't have to discuss Grizzly's name across the forum prematurely!

You see, on Jan. 24-03 I discovered the problem with the jointer and called Grizzly that day. On Feb. 10-03 I had realized that shimming the parts as suggested by Grizzly on the 24th would not work due to warpage, called Grizzly and the first parts were shipped. The parts arrived on the 23 in worse condition than the originals. I posted (as mentioned above) on the 25th with the hopes that someone here would be able to tell me if these "tolerances" were normal. So, by the time of my first post on this forum, I had called Grizzly twice, and had already received parts. No one here responded to the post, and I had nothing to really go on so I kept coming back to Grizzly looking for a solution.

Mr. Crofutt, I'm not one to openly criticize without good reason. How many people would have cried foul before I did? I gave your company 4 attempts over 3 months to get it right. Read my post about this jointer titled "Grizzly Comes Through". Unfortunately, sarcasm doesn't come across very well in text, but the "tongue in cheek" tone I intended about how it only "took x amount of attempts, but Finally" was written for all of those here who have been interested in this issue, without coming right out and saying....well....saying what is being said over the course of this thread.

The last straw.....came when after all the trouble I had been through, and all I needed, all I wanted, and had asked for TWICE was a little key and roll pin, and you couldn't even get that to me in two different transactions!

Mr. Crofutt, I wish you could go back into Badger Pond and read my old posts about this jointer. I did do a lot of research prior to buying it, and like I said, even with the mixed reviews about Grizzly, I thought the jointer was a good value. When I received it, I was impressed with the quality of cut. Sure there were a few issues, cosmetics, one knife had to be tweaked, and one belt was slightly longer than the other, but did I go on to the Pond and cry right away? No, I got on there and told everyone that I thought the jointer was a good value and I dealt with these little things on my own. Anyone with the Badger Pond archives CD yet? Look it up!

Do I have a problem with Grizzly equipment? Not at all! Do I have a problem with Grizzly Customer Service? Absolutely!

Mr. Crofutt, as far as I'm concerned about continuing this thread, I feel that enough time and energy has been spent. Respond as you wish, but I have said enough. I gratefully accept your offer to return the jointer for a full refund. I will await the paperwork with the return number and I will crate it back up and call the carrier. It really is too bad, you know, because it has never been about the tool, just about the customer service.

To all of you from the forum who chimed in, I'm eternally grateful.

Peace,

Jay Albrandt

[Robert Henderson]

Grizzly Customer Service and Grizzly tools are top notch IMO. This post proves that. I have seen rants in the past about both Delta and Jet tools but have NEVER seen any of their reps response the way Bill has. My hat is off to him! My next purchase, a band-saw will be GREEN.....


Thanks Bill for the GREAT service!

Bob Henderson

[Jim Becker]

My next purchase, a band-saw will be GREEN.....

You might have to buy some paint, too, if you want one "all green"...the new Grizzly bandsaws have "that other color" on the saw body! hee hee :D

[Bill Crofutt]

OK, a Return Authorization has already been created before I got involved and I believe you have that number. Also, the COD bill of Lading (which you need for sending it back) is being processed or may have already been sent to you (it's Saturday and I can't check on that right now) which will have the RA# with it.

I understand your frustration, 4 attempts I think is more than enough for us to get it right and we let you down, not for lack of trying though....but that's another story.

Sorry things didn't work out and I'll close by saying this is certainly the exception to our normal high level of service. Best of luck and let me know if there is something I can help you with. And by the way, I'll follow your Return process so I can expedite your full refund.

[Phil Phelps]

Originally posted by Bill Crofutt
OK, a Return Authorization has already been created before I got involved and I believe you have that number. Also, the COD bill of Lading (which you need for sending it back) is being processed or may have already been sent to you (it's Saturday and I can't check on that right now) which will have the RA# with it.

I understand your frustration, 4 attempts I think is more than enough for us to get it right and we let you down, not for lack of trying though....but that's another story.

Sorry things didn't work out and I'll close by saying this is certainly the exception to our normal high level of service. Best of luck and let me know if there is something I can help you with. And by the way, I'll follow your Return process so I can expedite your full refund.

I, too, think that this was an exception in customer service. No one can please, everytime. And, I think Grizzly has a fine customer service department. Hope others don't get the wrong impression.
Phil

[Glenn Clabo]

Originally posted by Phil Phelps
I, too, think that this was an exception in customer service. No one can please, every-time. And, I think Grizzly has a fine customer service department. Hope others don't get the wrong impression.
Phil

The ONLY impression I got was that Mr. Bill Crofutt is a stand up man and really wanted/wants to help. I'll be looking at his companies products whenever I want to spend my money.

[Jim Engel]

I recently purchased a Grizzley G0530 2 HP 17 inch band
saw. Prior to purchase Bill Crofutt answered a lot of
questions such as details of electrical hook up, correction
of some reported problems and how to lay the saw
over in a van for pick up at the trucking depot.

Everything went fine, had the saw up and running
in a couple of hours.

I too had heard some "mixed" Grizzley commentary, but
I am glad I took this route as this saw, at about $825
including shipping seems to me to be really excellent.

Can anybody think of a comparable saw that is not
about TWICE that price ?

I am not quite as green as some of the Grizzley fans,
but in the future the starting place will be the Grizzley
catalog.

I am sure I will eventually have some sort of a problem
if I buy enough tools, but my expectation is that
I will be able to resolve them.

My over all guess is that Grizzley has grown rapidly and
we all know that in business rapid growth means that
sometimes things slip through the cracks.

But I think the simple fact that Mr. Crofutt makes himself
available on line is a strong indication that, in spite of
occasional screw ups, Grizzley is truly committed to
customer satisfaction. He's there, his e mail address
is available to everybody and he responds.

I don't mean this to be anti Delta or anti Jet or anti
anybody else, as I have fine tools from both of these
companies, but at it's best Grizzley is making truly good
tools available at a price that allows many of us access
to a work shop that otherwise would not be in our
price range.

What I see is the rough and tumble of free enterprise
competition. It's not always a smooth or pretty process,
but it has made high level wood working much more
affordable for the amateur.