Anyone put an AIGNER fence on a PM2700 Shaper??

[Patrick McCarthy]

I am trying to figure out if a Aigner fence, which i see mostly on euro style shapers, can be mounted on a Powermatic 2700 shaper. Has anyone done this and , if so, which of the four variations did you use? Any problems in mounting?

Thank you, Patrick

[David Kumm]

Patrick, I don't have a PM 2700 fence to compare but check how far back it goes and how wide it opens. The aigner is thick and depending on the fence configuration may not allow for full diameter cutters. I have a Felder F7 with a 240 fence and the aigner is almost too large for it. You can order them with adjustable studs that will fit most fence slots. You also need to use larger diameter cutters because the fingers are thick. At least 4" diameter cope and stick and 7" raised panel. Freeborn cutters just clear the spindle enough for my aigner. If you use smaller cutters you will not get full benefit of the fence. Dave

[joe milana]

It's amazing what you learn when Dave posts. I would have never thought about the thickness of the fingers & cutter diameter. When you say "at least 4" diameter cope", are you referring to the typical freeborn 4" cutter set, or that the minor diameter of the cutter set must be at least 4"?

[Patrick McCarthy]

David, thank you for pointing that out; as soon as i read it i saw the issue . . . . . so i will go calculate and measure. I was focuisng upon the ability to mount it and missing the point about whether it would be functional . . . kinda like the old can't see the forest vs trees issue. thanks again, patrick

[Mike Heidrick]

My T1002S has a steel bar on the right that is mounted in holes in the table top that the fence rides on. The fence has a slot that rides over that bar. It allows you to keep a constant movement on the fence and to tighten on the bar and allows for micro adjustments with using the screw mechanism. Not sure if the Felder is the same way or if you have that already on your 2700. It is a slick method.

What are you paying for the 240 setup?

I would like a PM TS29 fence for my G1026 too. http://www.powermatic.com/Products.aspx?Part=1791284

[David Kumm]

Stiles Machinery puts a fence similar to what Laguna uses on it's artisan series- which are Cantek I believe, but I don't know what thickness the fingers are. The Freeborn 1.25 spindle cutters generally work with the aigner but it is close enough that you don't want your bushings to be very large diameter as that is what ends up interfering. Dave

[James Baker SD]

David:

Could you explain the problem with Aigner's thickness again. I am considering it for my "dream machine" (which is only a dream at this time), but do want understand the problem well enough to add the extra information into my thinking. Thanks.

James

[Patrick McCarthy]

James, David is more knowledgeable and eloquent than I, but I think the issue is that from a bird's eye view, depending on how it is mounted, your zero point dimension changes. Restated, the fingers/bars cross in front of the vertical spindle, thus effective pushing/forcing the cutter back further from the piece. On a smaller diameter cutter there is then less of the cutting edge (and depth) protruding to do the work, limiting the depth of cut by the added thickness of the fence.

[David Kumm]

Patrick, I'm barely more eloquent than my dog. I forgot to measure but think the fingers are about 15mm thick so about 5/8". If you are running a Freeborn 4" cutter with a 1/2 minimum depth- the rail cut- you have 1.75" from the center of the spindle. If the spindle plus the bushings have a diameter of 1.75 you have a maximum cut of 7/8 so the fingers at 5/8 will just clear. If you have big bushings like come with the Felder it gets real close. The Felder 240 fence will also not allow the aigner to open completely so you can't run 240mm diameter cutters. The best type of fence for the aigner is one with long slots milled into the face so you have much greater adjustability than a fence with just a hole for the stud on the face. The Freeborn raised panel cutters do not work well with my Aigner so I generally use shop made faces with the metal bridges to clear the spindle. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Much of the Euro tooling I have is much larger than 4". Maybe that was the inteded tooling for these desgins. I bet the Garniga RP head is 6-7". The Sliding fingers of my fence can get close to the outside shape of the cutter edges without passing in front of them if the cutter does not work well doing with them in front. Do the aigner bars slide or rotate in front?

[David Kumm]

Euro tolling is indeed better suited, just harder to find deals on. I'm a hobby guy so I tend to look for almost new used unless I'm building lots of doors or cabinets. Aigner bars are hinged on the right side- as you face- and both fences have vertical adjustments for each side. You also want a couple of accessories- a filler bar and the finger with a flip out for rabbiting. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Gents, I don't have the exact measurements but do have these photos of the Aigner plates on a few of our shapers, from Sam's past seminars. You can see how fat the plates and fingers, compared to most OEM fence plates. They are really nice but as others have pointed out, they do "diminish" the usable tool depth outside hood due to their thickness. I'm not sure how it is with other mfrs but we do offer larger shaper hoods as an option on many of our shapers, which have a wider opening between the fences, for specifically this reason. Hope these help illustrate a bit...

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FormulaT1spindleout.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FormulaT1withpowerfeederprofiling.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FormulaT1changingtooling.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/Raisingpanelfirstpass.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/Garnigapanel-raisingcutter.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Settingupforcope_stick.jpg

[David Kumm]

I'm a fan of both Felder and MM-SCMI but the larger fences- I have a SCMI T130- work better with the Aigner than the Felder "240". Not a deal breaker but a consideration as fences are a huge deal in deciding on a shaper. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

Can you relieve the center back portion of the bars to help tuck the spindle in closer? I do that on my low tech SCM aluminum fence. The bars are either held with magnets epoxied in the screw holes (ones that sit on the table), or are screwed into place with T nuts. Sometimes slower than the flip style fence, but infinitely adjustable.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_8iYuXbuxUM/T-ynAEj0szI/AAAAAAAAB5E/uMDzqbLcAVk/s800/IMG_1263.jpg

[joe milana]

Can you relieve the center back portion of the bars to help tuck the spindle in closer? I do that on my low tech SCM aluminum fence. The bars are either held with magnets epoxied in the screw holes (ones that sit on the table), or are screwed into place with T nuts. Sometimes slower than the flip style fence, but infinitely adjustable.

I bet the average guy would hate to grind on his $$$ aigner fence. I almost like your setup better. Simple, replaceable bars, and infinite adjust ability.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well the easy solution to all of this is to go out and buy a new Martin shaper.....it comes with the Aigner fence already installed:D

The Aigner fence is high up on my wish list. Especially when running awkward setups like I was yesterday where I had my molding head about 5" off the table running short pieces across the grain against the fence:eek: Operations like that really keep you focused!

let us know how you make out if you get one!

JeffD

[Patrick McCarthy]

Jeff, although I like the way you think, and would love a Martin, but i was stretching a bit to get the Aigner. However, truth be told I have been having that mental debate about the wisdom of maybe getting a Phase Perfect, looking for used 3ph euro equip, etc . . . . . then reality kicks in . . . . . Best regards, Patrick

[David Kumm]

Patrick, beware of reality. Even PP show up used once in a while- I've bought two for the price of one and one was still in the original wrapping. A friend of mine just bought a used Martin shaper for $400. I'm sure he will have more in it but I found a never used but ten year old SCMI T130 sliding table shaper for $3750. The cost of the three phase conversion pays back pretty quickly. sliding table saws are almost given away in this market, particularly when industrial and three phase. I really like the aigner but would give it up way before the three phase. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Gents, I don't have the exact measurements but do have these photos of the Aigner plates on a few of our shapers, from Sam's past seminars. You can see how fat the plates and fingers, compared to most OEM fence plates. They are really nice but as others have pointed out, they do "diminish" the usable tool depth outside hood due to their thickness. I'm not sure how it is with other mfrs but we do offer larger shaper hoods as an option on many of our shapers, which have a wider opening between the fences, for specifically this reason. Hope these help illustrate a bit...

Erik Loza
Minimax USA



Erik, does SCMI sell a hood separately that has microadjustable fences which would fit a minimax t-40 shaper?

[Erik Loza]

Erik, does SCMI sell a hood separately that has microadjustable fences which would fit a minimax t-40 shaper?

Peter, smallest hood with that feature is the hood off the Elite-S. New mounting holes for the hood would probably have to be drilled, then tapped, into the T40's cast iron table (not a biggie...) and I think it would fit and in theory, no reason why it shouldn't, but have never tried it so cannot say for 100% on it. The only concern I have is if the new mounting holes that would end up in some structural member or other component that is under the deck and it almost be a case of needing to have both the hood and shaper there in front of me to say yay or nay. Shoot me an email offline if you want me to look into pricing, etc.

This is the hood, by the way. It is big...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Elite-s/Elite-Sshaperhood.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Elite-s/Elite-SshaperhoodDRO.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Elite-s/EliteSshapermicro-adjustrail.jpg

Thanks,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jeff Duncan]

I found a never used but ten year old SCMI T130 sliding table shaper for $3750. Dave

Oh, so your the one that got that one:) I saw that and thought it was almost too good a deal to be true. Unfortunately wrong coast for me:( If you don't mind my asking...what was the deal with it....seemed weird that he had it for that long, never used it, then sold it for a song???

Patrick there's no question you could likely find a nice industrial for the cost of the Aigner or maybe less if you really wanted one! Your correct in that your biggest problem would be the cost of driving a larger 3 phase motor. Once you get into the big boy machines 5 hp is about the minimum with 7-1/2 - 12hp motors not being uncommon. getting convertors for those size motors can be costly for sure.

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Jeff I didn't get the one you are thinking of. There was something wierd about that one- hard to pin the seller down. Mine is actually newer- one of the white ones and close enough I could haul it myself. I did have a mobility kit so I could move it a little and made a feeder mount so I ended up with about 4500 in it. I'm working on a SCMI SI16W 10' slider now and will have about 3500 in it when done and it works like new. I'm a BIG fan of used industrial- as long as you avoid the unneeded electronics. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Oops...my mistake. Though that means there were 2 SCM heavy duty shapers that were essentially NOS for about the same price recently! Regardless you still got a very nice machine for a very good price:D

I am certainly a fan of used industrial myself and if your talking about machine electronics, (as opposed to VFD's an such), I have to agree. As beneficial as CNC can be to bigger shops, for small shops like mine it's just not practical and presents a whole other level of stuff to go wrong. The Martin shaper I rebuilt is as simple as it gets and with just the minimal amount of care will outlast me and several more generations;)

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Yes Jeff, circuit board electronics are the worst. Machines from the 90's with electronic rise and fall, tilt etc are tough to fix or replace. Your Martin is the best. Their bearings are massive. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

circuit board electronics are the worst.

indeed :-(